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Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.01 17:02:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 01/06/2011 16:07:51
Originally by: Jason Galente
Originally by: Nausea




Unfortunatly this is where the metaphor breaks a touch for you; the children would not be freed. They'd be taken and given to a more responsible adult to look after.

Not exactly accurate for your, (and admitedly my), view of slavery, but rather apt for his.


Of course, the entire foundation of his metaphor in and of itself mandates the flawed Amarrean comparison of a slave to a child and a slave owner to a parent. Children are born to their parents, slaves are taken from them and brought to their slave masters. How ironic.




Most slaves are born into slavery, and know nothing else. Freeing them prematurely would be the same as deserting a child.



Allowing them to return to their people is not the same as what you call 'deserting' them. If they wish to leave, they should be allowed to. They are humans, not property.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.01 17:07:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente
Quote:

Most slaves are born into slavery, and know nothing else. Freeing them prematurely would be the same as deserting a child.



Allowing them to return to their people is not the same as what you call 'deserting' them. If they wish to leave, they should be allowed to. They are humans, not property.


You're assuming that property and humanity are mutually exclusive terms. They're not.

Furthermore, the whole purpose of slavery is to enlighten the slaves.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.01 17:24:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Jason Galente
Quote:

Most slaves are born into slavery, and know nothing else. Freeing them prematurely would be the same as deserting a child.





Furthermore, the whole purpose of slavery is to enlighten the slaves.


Well, exactly. Rolling Eyes


Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.06.01 18:30:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Jason Galente
Quote:

Most slaves are born into slavery, and know nothing else. Freeing them prematurely would be the same as deserting a child.





Furthermore, the whole purpose of slavery is to enlighten the slaves.


Well, exactly. Rolling Eyes


Ha. Unfortunately, Mr. Galente, the Amarr don't approach "enlightenment" in the way most of the rest of us do.

Accepting one's place in "God's" plan: that is orthodox Amarrian "enlightenment." No capacity for independent thought required, nor desired, only faith and obedience. The highest form of wisdom, as they see it, is surrender of the self to greater powers.

As a basis for a stable society, it works pretty well.

Relic C
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.01 19:19:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente


Allowing them to return to their people is not the same as what you call 'deserting' them. If they wish to leave, they should be allowed to. They are humans, not property.


You fail to understand, a slave has no place. Even among this "Republic" the tribals value so highly, there is no home for an uneducated house slave: it is no warrior but through its duties and has nothing to offer save through successful completion of said duties.

Do not underestimate the good we do these creatures. We clothe, shelter and sustain them and ask little in return.

Aria Jenneth
Caldari
Kumiho's Smile
Posted - 2011.06.01 19:59:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Relic C
... uneducated house slave....

... We clothe, shelter and sustain them and ask little in return.


Create, clothe, shelter, and sustain.

Surely you wouldn't want all the training that goes into a decent house slave-- proper, civilized bed making, clothes washing, dusting, polishing, ironing, cooking, appropriate place settings for dinner, on and on-- to go unappreciated?

Take credit for your work....

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.01 22:35:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Jason Galente on 01/06/2011 22:36:38
Originally by: Relic C
Originally by: Jason Galente


Allowing them to return to their people is not the same as what you call 'deserting' them. If they wish to leave, they should be allowed to. They are humans, not property.


You fail to understand, a slave has no place. Even among this "Republic" the tribals value so highly, there is no home for an uneducated house slave: it is no warrior but through its duties and has nothing to offer save through successful completion of said duties.

Do not underestimate the good we do these creatures. We clothe, shelter and sustain them and ask little in return.



You shattered any hope of a future they would have by taking their ancestors away from their homes, their families, their lives. YOU are to blame for this, you deserve no thanks for any half-good you have done since.


Alexamria Erata
Posted - 2011.06.01 23:05:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Aria Jenneth


Surely you wouldn't want all the training that goes into a decent house slave-- proper, civilized bed making, clothes washing, dusting, polishing, ironing, cooking, appropriate place settings for dinner, on and on-- to go unappreciated?

Take credit for your work....


Indeed, an experienced master should take a modicum of pride from his efforts. It is similar to mineral working; you take an unrefined ore, scrutinize it, cleanse it, and in the end you have a mineral free of it's original impurities. A dedicated, well trained Minmitar is capable of so much, once broken. The chore of cleaning the cups becomes an art form after so many years, and the truly dedicated slave has a right to take a certain pride in its efforts as well, in my opinion.

Honorius Vitellius
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.02 02:20:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Though we might miss the essence of the issue here. Slavery in itself, maybe. I have yet to find any reference to slavery in the core dogma of the Scriptures. It is mentionned countless times when the author is refering to the amarrian culture through ages, but I still have seen nothing about slavery in the core ideology.


I have been moved to respond to your statement as it is not factually accurate, and distorts the nature of what we Amarr mean by the term slavery. It is in truth the very basis for the empire’s society, mission and structure; if you reject one, you reject them all.

It is written:

And the Lord spake, and said, Lo, my people,
Witness, for I have made the worlds of Heaven;
And these worlds I give to you, My Chosen,
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim,
Who serve Me as others shall serve you,
For all things under Me serve one higher;
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21

All human beings are subservient to God. The issue is the nature of this subservience. All are slaves of some kind. Those, in this discussion, who have been called slaves are the ones in need of spiritual instruction so that they may become the true servants of the Lord. They are at the bottom of the chain of authority that originates with the divinity and moves down through the society of the empire.

The freedom so championed by the Gallente and the Minmatar is really the most debased kind of slavery: a soul-killing worship of one’s own will that losses all sight of true being and true happiness. Those without faith often have trouble seeing this, but the true faithful do not waver.

Step back from the brink.

As to the point of this discussion: it would be best (and proper) for escaped slaves to be returned, but it may not be currently feasible due to practical and political considerations. We should mourn for the souls that will thus inevitably be lost.

Uraniae Fehrnah
Posted - 2011.06.02 03:08:00 - [40]
 

Slaves who felt the need to escape from their servitude should not be hunted down. The Holder who did not see to their needs, who allowed their discontent to grow unchecked, forfeits ownership of the slave in question the moment the slave's heart is set on escape. It is a breach of contract in a sense, and as such the slave is no longer even a slave. To hunt these people down as if they were criminals is nothing more than a corrupt and cruel attempt for unfit Holders to try and save face.

Furthermore, the notion that it takes generations of servitude to reach enlightenment is, in a word, offensive. Now of course I learned from my teachers, my parents, and my peers, and continue to do so today, and yes the lessons one's elders pass down are of some value, but I am no closer to God simply because my great great great grandmother was once a house slave. My journey, my path to enlightenment has just as many steps shared with others as it does that only I can take.


Honorius Vitellius
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.02 03:48:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Uraniae Fehrnah
Furthermore, the notion that it takes generations of servitude to reach enlightenment is, in a word, offensive. Now of course I learned from my teachers, my parents, and my peers, and continue to do so today, and yes the lessons one's elders pass down are of some value, but I am no closer to God simply because my great great great grandmother was once a house slave. My journey, my path to enlightenment has just as many steps shared with others as it does that only I can take.




A logical objection, but it is one not consonant with the Faith. The Amarr themselves were tried and tempered through generations of suffering to become the chosen of the Lord, for it is written, “For forty millennia we struggled in the desert, etc.” If God’s chosen have thus endured, others can be rightly asked to bear much less. The complete change of a culture takes generations, and slavery is designed to effect just this transformation of the faithless into the faithful.

The idea that the conquered subject can choose to be “free” contradicts the word of God, for it is written, “Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given.” How can the faithful “give back” that which is not theirs to give? The Lord wishes these peoples to be reclaimed, thus they must. The empire has eased new conquests into Amarr society through the slow reformation of the will inherent in the institution of slavery for centuries. Any equivocation on the necessity and the effectiveness of slavery itself equals an equivocation on the Amarr faith.

We can productively discuss misuses of the institution, which have occurred. We may also then discuss particular reformations based upon these excesses. At all times, we must remember that any reform is really a return to the ideal and not novelty. God’s command and its proper realization do not change in their essence, only in the accidents of their expression; we must submit to it.

The key one must remember is that the Amarr know the value of submission. All Amarr know to submit themselves to a greater authority. Within this submission the will is not destroyed but reformed. The unreformed human will resists God, and so it must be set to struggle in the desert, until it is ready to take its place in the hierarchy God has ordained. Many escaped slaves escape so that they may persevere in the depravity of their unrepentant nature. They do not flee a holder who did not see to their needs, but rather the guidance of a parent who wishes the best for their child, even if the good is achieved through a difficult tutelage.

As well, one might add on a purely legalist note that within the borders of the empire an escaped slave is a criminal. As I have cautioned before, outside of the Empire's borders discretion must rule, as the Empress' own policies appear to suggest.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.02 03:52:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Honorius Vitellius
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Though we might miss the essence of the issue here. Slavery in itself, maybe. I have yet to find any reference to slavery in the core dogma of the Scriptures. It is mentionned countless times when the author is refering to the amarrian culture through ages, but I still have seen nothing about slavery in the core ideology.


I have been moved to respond to your statement as it is not factually accurate, and distorts the nature of what we Amarr mean by the term slavery. It is in truth the very basis for the empire’s society, mission and structure; if you reject one, you reject them all.

It is written:

And the Lord spake, and said, Lo, my people,
Witness, for I have made the worlds of Heaven;
And these worlds I give to you, My Chosen,
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim,
Who serve Me as others shall serve you,
For all things under Me serve one higher;
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21

All human beings are subservient to God. The issue is the nature of this subservience. All are slaves of some kind. Those, in this discussion, who have been called slaves are the ones in need of spiritual instruction so that they may become the true servants of the Lord. They are at the bottom of the chain of authority that originates with the divinity and moves down through the society of the empire.

The freedom so championed by the Gallente and the Minmatar is really the most debased kind of slavery: a soul-killing worship of one’s own will that losses all sight of true being and true happiness. Those without faith often have trouble seeing this, but the true faithful do not waver.

Step back from the brink.

As to the point of this discussion: it would be best (and proper) for escaped slaves to be returned, but it may not be currently feasible due to practical and political considerations. We should mourn for the souls that will thus inevitably be lost.



And may I ask, who wrote that? Certainly not God. Quite foolhardy of you to base your entire society off of the writings of a single man. A man who quite obviously had an agenda. But of course, he was Amarrean was he not? How convenient.


Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.02 09:53:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 02/06/2011 09:53:23
Originally by: Honorius Vitellius
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Though we might miss the essence of the issue here. Slavery in itself, maybe. I have yet to find any reference to slavery in the core dogma of the Scriptures. It is mentionned countless times when the author is refering to the amarrian culture through ages, but I still have seen nothing about slavery in the core ideology.


I have been moved to respond to your statement as it is not factually accurate, and distorts the nature of what we Amarr mean by the term slavery. It is in truth the very basis for the empire’s society, mission and structure; if you reject one, you reject them all.

It is written:

And the Lord spake, and said, Lo, my people,
Witness, for I have made the worlds of Heaven;
And these worlds I give to you, My Chosen,
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim,
Who serve Me as others shall serve you,
For all things under Me serve one higher;
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21

All human beings are subservient to God. The issue is the nature of this subservience. All are slaves of some kind. Those, in this discussion, who have been called slaves are the ones in need of spiritual instruction so that they may become the true servants of the Lord. They are at the bottom of the chain of authority that originates with the divinity and moves down through the society of the empire.

The freedom so championed by the Gallente and the Minmatar is really the most debased kind of slavery: a soul-killing worship of one’s own will that losses all sight of true being and true happiness. Those without faith often have trouble seeing this, but the true faithful do not waver.

Step back from the brink.

As to the point of this discussion: it would be best (and proper) for escaped slaves to be returned, but it may not be currently feasible due to practical and political considerations. We should mourn for the souls that will thus inevitably be lost.



Ah, here we comes to it at last. Merely your own interpretation of a text. It is written nowhere that slavery is the answer. Obedience and servitude ("As Holder rules Serf"), yes. But slavery ? No. Slavery is a tradition, not to be confounded with a scriptural fact. I still have yet to read any dogma about slavery in the core ideology.

Actually, your statement is inaccurate, not mine, and this is a fact. I am not denying you the right to have your own opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures, for that it is the core of every religion and a scientific fact for unique and different minds and personnal appreciations.

Originally by: Jason Galente


And may I ask, who wrote that? Certainly not God. Quite foolhardy of you to base your entire society off of the writings of a single man. A man who quite obviously had an agenda. But of course, he was Amarrean was he not? How convenient.




You may lack of the proper insight in this matter. While you are definitly right to think that the Scriptures are unperfect, as a collection of texts created by mortals (in the opposite of God), in an unperfect language. But here you are reading it as if it was a written testimony to slavery.

It is not.

Domitianus Fury
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.06.02 11:36:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel

It is not.


You do not believe in enlightenment?

You do not believe it is the right of the Amarr to rule worlds, and for holders to rule their serfs?

You do not believe in the divine rule of the Empress?

Kentt Em'asep
Minmatar
Sec Det 125
Posted - 2011.06.02 11:52:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Domitianus Fury
Originally by: Lyn Farel

It is not.


You do not believe in enlightenment?

You do not believe it is the right of the Amarr to rule worlds, and for holders to rule their serfs?

You do not believe in the divine rule of the Empress?


Nope... she probably does not. Maybe you should enlighten her with more quotes. That is all you seem to really base most of your actions from.

Sure... they can own their serfs. Maybe some worlds, away from everyone else. But slaves? As others have pointed out, your texts mention those not.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.02 12:00:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Domitianus Fury

What of an escaped slave's decendants? There are three options I have thought of, but which is the most appropriate?

1. Let them be? Are they no longer within the Empire's jurisdiction?


They are stolen objects. If you can arrange for their return without breaking local laws, you should.

Originally by: Domitianus Fury

2. Should they be enslaved and the number of generations their bloodline has spent outside the Empire be taken into account for their emancipation?


The Empress ordered all slaves released that were beyond a certain number of generations at the time of the order, she never commanded that all slaves that reach the same number of generations after the time of her order to be released too. So I think the question is irrelevant.

Originally by: Domitianus Fury

What of an escaped slave's decendants? There are three options I have thought of, but which is the most appropriate?

1. Let them be? Are they no longer within the Empire's jurisdiction?


They are stolen objects. If you can arrange for their return without breaking local laws, you should.

Originally by: Domitianus Fury

3. Should they be taken into slavery and since their bloodline has not received proper indemnification and loving spiritual guidance, should the clock on their generations of slavery effectively be restarted from the moment of their ancestor's escape?


This is up to the holder. There is no set clock upon which slaves should be released like you seem to think.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.02 12:05:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel

Ah, here we comes to it at last. Merely your own interpretation of a text. It is written nowhere that slavery is the answer. Obedience and servitude ("As Holder rules Serf"), yes. But slavery ? No. Slavery is a tradition, not to be confounded with a scriptural fact. I still have yet to read any dogma about slavery in the core ideology.


Slavery (of adults) is an answer. All societies have means to curb immorality, be it corporal punishment, imprisonement, banishment, indentured service, debt slavery etc.

Slavery is by no means the only tool the Empire uses to teach proper morality, the Empire uses many more teaching tools. As far as my knowledge the Scriptures wisely don't specify what tools are to be used and what tool aren't. Abusing the institution of slavery is just as bad as parents abusing the power they hold over their children.

Honorius Vitellius
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.02 12:11:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel


Ah, here we comes to it at last. Merely your own interpretation of a text. It is written nowhere that slavery is the answer. Obedience and servitude ("As Holder rules Serf"), yes. But slavery ? No. Slavery is a tradition, not to be confounded with a scriptural fact. I still have yet to read any dogma about slavery in the core ideology.

Actually, your statement is inaccurate, not mine, and this is a fact. I am not denying you the right to have your own opinion and interpretation of the Scriptures, for that it is the core of every religion and a scientific fact for unique and different minds and personnal appreciations.


I think part of our disagreement is semantics. First, let us see if that is the case. Do we agree that as the Lord reveals in the scriptures, some human beings are subservient to others? Would we then agree that if the world is ordered in a chain of authority, originating in God, that it must terminate somewhere as well? Then what do we call this lowest social order of human beings who are in obedience to God?

If we do not agree on these basic premises, it is unfortunate. To reject the idea of a chain of authority originating in God is to reject the Amarr faith entirely, as well as its expression in the empire. If one embraces the idea of an ordered hierarchy, then one admits that there is a lowest point in that hierarchy.

Slavery is a scriptural reality, and the Lord calls us to submit to him. Our own logic and our own mercies must give way to his commands, all else is unimaginable arrogance. The text has been interpreted along the lines I have set out for millennia. I do not have the pride to claim that I have greater wisdom, insight, and divine inspiration than all the orthodox Amarrian theologians who have come before me. To do that, to claim that slavery depends on my own individual interpretation of the text rather than the will of the divinity as it is revealed in the scriptures, would be in truth the appalling personal interpretation, because the tradition since time immemorial has seen it there. It is not my personal reading.


Originally by: Jason Galente


And may I ask, who wrote that? Certainly not God. Quite foolhardy of you to base your entire society off of the writings of a single man. A man who quite obviously had an agenda. But of course, he was Amarrean was he not? How convenient.




As to the issue of authorship, this subject too is often an issue for those outside the Faith. Did human hands write the scriptures? Yes, in fact, a great many. All told, there are likely hundreds of human authors within the corpus of the Scriptures. Did the Lord inspire this writing? Yes. His inspiration and influence is the guarantee of its truth.

In this passage, however, the Lord directly speaks. It has been taken by many as an historical record of an event (The scriptures have been shown to be a quite reliable historical source, even by the standards of the faithless, for a number of early events, for which no other culture has a history).

One of the key issues between us is that many seem to take the scriptures as a work of literature, like a pleasant novel. The faithful do not see these texts in this way. If an understanding of Amarrian scriptural interpretation is not brought to the table, we will simply argue past each other to no end.

Domitianus Fury
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.06.02 12:12:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth

They are stolen objects. If you can arrange for their return without breaking local laws, you should.


And so I shall. I spent 20 years doing just so, but only localy on Imperial planets. It was my intention upon receiving my capsuleer license that I should venture beyond the Empire to seek out more distant poor lost souls so I may return them to loving arms. Thank you all, you've all been a great help keeping me on my path.

Kentt Em'asep
Minmatar
Sec Det 125
Posted - 2011.06.02 12:15:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Merdaneth

They are stolen objects. If you can arrange for their return without breaking local laws, you should.


Originally by: Merdaneth

The Empress ordered all slaves released that were beyond a certain number of generations at the time of the order, she never commanded that all slaves that reach the same number of generations after the time of her order to be released too. So I think the question is irrelevant.


Originally by: Merdaneth

This is up to the holder. There is no set clock upon which slaves should be released like you seem to think.


Ah. So if I let's say, ended up being a brother to a escaped slave... I am stolen property that must be captured? I see how it is. "If we can't hold onto Bob-the-slave, we'll take his brother instead". This object finds this amusing.

Originally by: Merdaneth

Slavery is by no means the only tool the Empire uses to teach proper morality, the Empire uses many more teaching tools. As far as my knowledge the Scriptures wisely don't specify what tools are to be used and what tool aren't. Abusing the institution of slavery is just as bad as parents abusing the power they hold over their children.


True that. You must whip them as well. Maybe a little forced reading of you book over and over. Maybe even loving care. Love them and they will lick your feet.

Kentt Em'asep
Minmatar
Sec Det 125
Posted - 2011.06.02 12:24:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Domitianus Fury

And so I shall. I spent 20 years doing just so, but only localy on Imperial planets. It was my intention upon receiving my capsuleer license that I should venture beyond the Empire to seek out more distant poor lost souls so I may return them to loving arms. Thank you all, you've all been a great help keeping me on my path.


20 years of doing that sound a tad bit pointless in life. You spent 20 years searching for an escaped slave who obviously has no interest working for you. Why don't you look in local articles for housecleaners looking for work? Maybe they will do a better job. And hey, if they are Amarr, you don't have to bother to re-educate them.

I am sure if you venture farther out into the void, looking for "poor lost souls" would not be the majority of your worries. Maybe... we just want to be lost. Maybe the loving arms we seek are those who are not yours or even Ammarian.

Merdaneth
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.02 12:55:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Kentt Em'asep

Ah. So if I let's say, ended up being a brother to a escaped slave... I am stolen property that must be captured? I see how it is. "If we can't hold onto Bob-the-slave, we'll take his brother instead". This object finds this amusing.


Amarrian law isn't rocket science. The the legal status of your brother has no bearing on yours. Your brother's escape doesn't make you a slave.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.02 15:14:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Domitianus Fury
Originally by: Lyn Farel

It is not.


You do not believe in enlightenment?

You do not believe it is the right of the Amarr to rule worlds, and for holders to rule their serfs?

You do not believe in the divine rule of the Empress?


Neutral Not even remotely. I believe in Amarrean arrogance cloaked by empty religiousness.


Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.02 16:09:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Jason Galente

Neutral Not even remotely. I believe in Amarrean arrogance cloaked by empty religiousness.




I think that you're confusing arrogance with righteous confidence and empty religiosity with spiritual depth.

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.06.02 16:21:00 - [55]
 

Anyone wondering why a lasting peace is, at this point, impossible, need look no further than the majority of posts in this thread.

By the way, I escaped over 10 years ago. Come get me.

Nausea
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.06.02 16:47:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Ava Starfire


By the way, I escaped over 10 years ago. Come get me.




With so much of the moralising, hypothetical scenarios, and other higher-order language present here, it's always worth remembering that some of these topics have a rather personal element.

Ms Starfire isn't alone in that position either. A number of her fellows have a similar personal reason for not liking the Empire.

Not to mention fighting against people who specificly have stated a desire to return them to their indentured state... That has to lead a certain edge to proceedings.

Kazuma Ry
Amarr
Defensores Fidei
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.02 17:20:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Ava Starfire
Anyone wondering why a lasting peace is, at this point, impossible, need look no further than the majority of posts in this thread.

By the way, I escaped over 10 years ago. Come get me.


Ms Starfire,

While you may ( or may not) be viewed as an escaped slave, that is only to be determined by the holder who owned you. Until that person or family goes through the legal channels informing the Empire to mark you as escaped, we Pod Pilots do not have the authority to recapture you and put you back into Slavery (since we would probably then be seen as stealing property).

It can always be debated which practice is best to enlighten people, to bring them closer to God. Will these debates lead to war, probably. Is lasting peace possible, maybe, but all parties must want it. All parties must put the past behind them and look to the future, We do not move forward when we still cling to old wounds refusing to allow them to heal.

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.06.02 17:47:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Kazuma Ry
Originally by: Ava Starfire
Anyone wondering why a lasting peace is, at this point, impossible, need look no further than the majority of posts in this thread.

By the way, I escaped over 10 years ago. Come get me.


Ms Starfire,

While you may ( or may not) be viewed as an escaped slave, that is only to be determined by the holder who owned you. Until that person or family goes through the legal channels informing the Empire to mark you as escaped, we Pod Pilots do not have the authority to recapture you and put you back into Slavery (since we would probably then be seen as stealing property).

It can always be debated which practice is best to enlighten people, to bring them closer to God. Will these debates lead to war, probably. Is lasting peace possible, maybe, but all parties must want it. All parties must put the past behind them and look to the future, We do not move forward when we still cling to old wounds refusing to allow them to heal.



Thank you for proving my point.

Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.02 19:00:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Jason Galente

Neutral Not even remotely. I believe in Amarrean arrogance cloaked by empty religiousness.




I think that you're confusing arrogance with righteous confidence and empty religiosity with spiritual depth.


I think you've just proven my point. Care to back up such big claims?


Jason Galente
Gallente
mishima ryu
Posted - 2011.06.02 19:05:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Kazuma Ry
Originally by: Ava Starfire
Anyone wondering why a lasting peace is, at this point, impossible, need look no further than the majority of posts in this thread.

By the way, I escaped over 10 years ago. Come get me.


Ms Starfire,

While you may ( or may not) be viewed as an escaped slave, that is only to be determined by the holder who owned you. Until that person or family goes through the legal channels informing the Empire to mark you as escaped, we Pod Pilots do not have the authority to recapture you and put you back into Slavery (since we would probably then be seen as stealing property).

It can always be debated which practice is best to enlighten people, to bring them closer to God. Will these debates lead to war, probably. Is lasting peace possible, maybe, but all parties must want it. All parties must put the past behind them and look to the future, We do not move forward when we still cling to old wounds refusing to allow them to heal.



Slavery is not an 'old wound': it is still going on. There will be no peace between the Amarr and the Minmatar until the remaining Minmatar slaves are freed and reparations are paid. It is your own choice to cling onto your inhumane traditions for personal gain that prolongs this war. Do not delude yourself into believing otherwise.



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