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Valator Uel
Mercenaries of Andosia
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.05.31 17:29:00 - [31]

All I hear is "waaa waaa we have nothing to counter SC's". How about being creative and finding a solution that doesn't involve nerfing. The people whining about supers are those who feel impotent against them. You perceive supers a huge problem because there is nothing you can do against them. However if you were in the position of using 100 supers you would. Other people are also shouting nerf because they think that these things are free. They are not, they are expensive ships. Not only the price of the hull, but the price of fuel (it costs 10-20b to move a SC fleet across regions or the universe), the price of an extra account because nobody keeps a SC on their main, the effort to keep it safe because they cannot dock, etc, etc. These things take effort and isk to keep.

Seriously, so why does everyone think that nerfing Supercaps will solve anything. At best you make a ship totally useless by creating hypothetical solutions that don't solve the perceived problem. How about you actually ADD something to the game that counters Supercaps? There are so many things you can do to reduce their effectiveness, how about creating ships and/or mods that will make people think twice about fielding Supercaps?

Sure, this means CCP will have to actually do some work instead of simply manipulating item property numbers. But that's how you improve the game by adding content instead of nerfing a ship that only those who never use them whine about.

Some random ideas:
- For instance, a T2 tier 3 BS that functions like the Arbiter in Starcraft (area cloak), but only to ships in siege mode. If they keep this ship alive it'll be a serious threat to SC's who can't target sieged dreads/triaged carriers against them.
- Boost dread defense against SC's.
- Ships that can complete strategic objectives but are practically immune to Citadel Torps yet just as vulnerable to everything else as normal ships. "lol bring as many SC as you want, this thing we're doing is still happening".
- Ships that decreases the amount of bombers a SC can communicate with, causing X bombers per affected SC to return to drone bay and forcing the SC to switch to Fighters or regular drones.
- Ships or mods that render a SC invulnerable for X minutes but also incapable of doing damage itself and stuck in space for those X minutes.
- Or how about the motherofgod of EVE improvements: subsystem targeting. Shoot the drone bay doors and suddenly the bombers cannot return. Shoot jump drives and the SC will be stuck in the system unless a specialised ship comes to repair it. Shoot the cloaking device and now the SC is really ****ed.
- A special kind of bomb, like a flash bang, that immobilises bomber pilots for X seconds/minutes (they are afterall normal pilots, not pod pilots).
- Etc...

These are just random ideas and of course would need balancing. The point is to give the counter (instead of nerfing them) which doesn't involve more supers.

Be creative instead of ****ing whining ******s.

One Wounded Wing
Posted - 2011.05.31 17:36:00 - [32]

As everyone has realized, inflation is not just limited to ISK. People are mining 23.5/7 There's so many resources flying around. So many BPOs flying around. If you recall back in the day, "Sniper Battleships" were the IN thing. Virtually unable to be destroyed... Then Carriers became big. Everyone and their uncle was flying Carriers... Then Dreadnought fights began.. They were FEARED!! Huge DPS decent tanks... Now it's the land of the SuperCarrier. When you see Carriers being used for ratting on a CONSISTANT basis, you have to realize everyone in EVE is getting richer and richer. You certainely can set the bar higher for all this big nasty ships, but eventually the economy will catch up to them and make them affordable in combat.

It's ironic that peeps now don't like the fact PL has dropped numerous SCs on targets all over the place in Hot Drops and now everyone is starting to see how powerful they are.

If you want to limit the ISK inflation, start making more ISK sinks. Insure only up to Battleships... That sorta thing.

Create a recession!!

Enuen Ravenseye
Posted - 2011.05.31 17:38:00 - [33]

Resource decay and redistribution. (Even SWG was smart enough to have that, ffs.)

Problem (actually many problems) solved.

Kalle Demos
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.05.31 17:40:00 - [34]

Or you could just change the mechanics of EVE so that sov warfare involves focusing on different systems and not a ****ty station where everyone and their cat sits and ****s

E-Peen Hunters
Posted - 2011.05.31 18:15:00 - [35]

How to fix the issue?
Introduce something(doesn't have to be a new ship) that can effectively take down super carriers(and all the other capitals). If they would have something that can effectively kill them but not the smaller ships, then it would greatly reduce their usage.
Could be some "jump drive jam-bomb" whatever..

One Wounded Wing
Posted - 2011.05.31 18:36:00 - [36]

Why not then add a flower cannon for the Carebears so they can stare down the Super Caps... Geez..

Speaker4 theDead
Posted - 2011.05.31 20:12:00 - [37]

Look at all the NC alt posting......

It was ok when you had the biggest Cap fleet. But now that you can't get most of your SC's to log in, much less fight, it's suddenly unfair?
The NC could outdo the numbers that they are seeing, they simply can't get the people to risk their shiny toys.
So this post isn't really about SC's, it's about NC living large for years, and now they are going to lose their cush position....

You have to wonder just how much RMT is going on in 0.0 now. Will people lose their "Jobs" over this? Is this simply a drive to employ more people? You have to wonder sometimes where all this isk goes....

Grath Telkin
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.31 22:55:00 - [38]

Hey I heard it takes a half an hour and 50 battleships to kill a super cap

Unfortunately this guy didn't get that memo and died in about 4 and a half minutes.

Cregg Neir
Posted - 2011.08.24 00:10:00 - [39]

Eliminate super caps and refund isk to players who own them. It's a stupid class of ship. Bigger and bigger and bigger is not better. Might return some strategy to the game. Other than the logistics of organizing big groups of pilots, I mean.

Give poses a doomsday weapon useful against super caps and give it a huge range.

Develop a strong small ship designed to destroy super caps.

Give super caps a 1 light year range.

Make them travel by use of a special type of cyno that requires more training and maybe three or four pilots to implement.

I hate super caps. I want a super cap. I hate big fleets. I want a big fleet.

Simon Falls
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.08.24 01:50:00 - [40]

Supercaps and Titans are fine:
Give POS / Stations real 'teeth' vs. Supercaps/Titans
Point, Neut, EWAR and real DPS effective against Supercaps/Titans
(Stationary fortifications should be at their prime against mobile Supercaps/Titans.)

Allow sub caps to fly under the guns and tracking of POS's (unless equipped to deal with sub caps).

Allow sub caps to deploy mines effectively and any prick of a sub cap to point Supers. That will eliminate the problem. Fights should be about logistics.

Demon Azrakel
Narwhals Ate My Duck
Posted - 2011.08.24 02:14:00 - [41]

Originally by: Grath Telkin
Hey I heard it takes a half an hour and 50 battleships to kill a super cap

Unfortunately this guy didn't get that memo and died in about 4 and a half minutes.

Involved parties: 85
(3) Nyx
(1) Aeon
(1) Naglfar
(1) Avatar
(1) Phoenix
(6) Drake
(2) Hurricane
(1) Thanatos
(2) Hound
(22) Abaddon
(6) Unknown
(3) Purifier
(1) Prowler
(3) Megathron
(3) Zealot
(1) Legion
(4) Tempest
(1) Vagabond
(1) Loki
(1) Phobos
(1) Stabber Fleet Issue
(1) Dramiel
(6) Devoter
(1) Broadsword
(2) Sabre
(1) Damnation
(6) Guardian
(1) Flycatcher
(1) Stiletto
(1) Eris

There were neither fifty ships, nor were all of the dps ships battleships (bolded some things). Aeon was fit rather cheaply.

Here is a suggestion: make supers (hell, all ships) require 10% (or 5% or w/e) to warp at all, so a unreppable hictor in lowsec is no longer the only way to keep a mothership or titan tackled (pretty hard to tackle one that can just follow a rolling safe and easily stops a hictor or several (yes, I know, get a massive group with a large number of hictors and your own super blob and you are set...)).

Ethan Bejorn
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.24 02:45:00 - [42]

If CCP nerfs super caps, I want a refund on my 30B isk ship (with fit) and skill points returned for everything I invested in it.

Hugh Mungous
Posted - 2011.08.24 02:56:00 - [43]

I like this game a lot, but everyone's just going to quit (and no one new will join). SCs need a nerf, not to weaken them persay, but to add a little risk and fun.

Supercarriers require a siege module to deploy fighterbombers (same limitations as dreads, all other drones unchanged)

Fighterbombers can't attack structures (or maybe just sov structures)

And something new for capital tackle...
A carrier module that works like a long range focused point against capitals only (but would also prevent the carrier from being doomsdayed)
Or and interdiction fighter, deployable from carriers that mount an interdiction fighter control unit (max of one to three deployed per carrier at a time). Each interdiction fighter mounts a focused point, 20 km orbit, only effective against capital ships.

Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.08.24 06:20:00 - [44]

Originally by: Ethan Bejorn
If CCP nerfs super caps, I want a refund on my 30B isk ship (with fit) and skill points returned for everything I invested in it.

They are getting nerfed it's already been stated, you chose to invest the ISK and SP for some of the lowest risk carebear combat in the game. Live with it.

Posted - 2011.08.24 07:56:00 - [45]

The only time I have ever found a super cap to be a problem in low, was when I was stupid enough to hang around for his 40 second lock. You want to fight a fortress and win. Play mario.

Posted - 2011.08.24 08:59:00 - [46]

Love the tears from all the poor people who cant afford a super.

It's the pirates breakfast of champions


Mr Plack
Posted - 2011.08.24 09:11:00 - [47]

Edited by: Mr Plack on 24/08/2011 09:13:59
Why is it even a problem that supers are supposedly so good? If they're that great then why don't you buy one and go rock the game? Oh right, it's because you suck and would lose it on the first hotdrop.

It's easy to whine about how OP other people or alliances are when those people or alliances are risking ships that cost more then all the ISK you ever earned in EVE put together.

Basically it's just envy.

It was the same with other ships a few years ago. An alliance that could field 20 carriers was the king before everyone else also got 20 carriers.

It's the same with motherships now.

If you can't take the heat then get out of the fire. (And by extension: if you can't defend your space from 70 supers then you clearly don't deserve to own the space.)

Posted - 2011.08.24 09:27:00 - [48]

Remove tech-moons and suddenly alliances dont have the free ISK to build these.

Atm its like this for those that dont know it:

- Alliance sets up POS, moon mining tech moon, this is an automated process
- Moon goo is turned into ISK
- ISK is turned into minerals
- Minerals brought down to 0.0 with jump freighters
- SCs build with brought minerals that were financed with "free ISK" from moon-goo

Take moon goo away and suddenly alliances have to tax, or run alliance ops, etc to finance these monsters, and ONLY then will these become rare as their intended design suggest.

CCP, why are you constantly repeating the same design mistake (I think Einstein once said, stupid ppl are those, that try the same thing and expect a different result), if something is wildly popular its most possibly because it has no reasonable way to be countered. Why do we see SC blobs? Because they are overpowered. When is something overpowered? When the only way to counter the OP element is to bring more of the OP element of your own.

Posted - 2011.08.24 09:30:00 - [49]

Originally by: Ethan Bejorn
If CCP nerfs super caps, I want a refund on my 30B isk ship (with fit) and skill points returned for everything I invested in it.

Why so u can put those SP and ISK into the next OP thing?.. LOL u knew they were gonna get nerfed sooner or later, you reaped the rewards long enough and now u want a refund.

Its like I bring back a used condome to the store and demand a refund!!

Jin Endashi
Posted - 2011.08.24 09:34:00 - [50]

Originally by: Doshan Ri
Self destruct a Tempest near the hydrazine tanks.

Extra bonus if you eject your pod and survive the blast, a red couch to go in you cq


+100000 LaughingLaughing

Dr Offensive
Posted - 2011.08.24 11:56:00 - [51]

A good way to limit cap ships is to have upkeep costs for keeping them active and available. 50 million a day to keep a titan active sounds fair to me.

Owners can avoid upkeeps costs by mothballing thier ships.

If you want to get your cap ship out of mothball it takes 2 days for a nyx, 5 days for a titan etc. After that its active again.

Any one that has insufficient ISK to upkeep thier cap ship gets it mothballed automatically.

There, problem solved Very Happy

Posted - 2011.08.24 13:14:00 - [52]

my money is on time dilation and coordinated bomber runs.

The Knights Templar
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.08.24 13:15:00 - [53]

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
Originally by: Acac Sunflyier
We're talking about Super Capitals. where one ships takes an average fleet about 20 minutes to bring down 1 and then you find that there are 15 more on the field.

You math is wrong and here is why. *IF* you have a bunch of super capitals yourself, you use them to remove the enemy super capitals.

I've seen titans vanish in minutes and super carriers in seconds. It is all relative to the amount of firepower you bring. Maybe *your side* are not able to do much about twenty of them. But since someone else might have the numbers, *your* lack of numbers are not a valid argument for design change (which is what I sense you really want to talk about.)

your defensive posture for supercaps is understandably biased as part of Raiden and X13 corporation you are very supercap heavy and very dependant of these ships.


A Little Girl
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:28:00 - [54]

Rename them to frigates. Get rid of all other ships. Introduce new ones which are 10x bigger using the new frigates as the starting ships. Also make stations 10x bigger.

Sister Evian
Posted - 2011.08.24 14:57:00 - [55]

Edited by: Sister Evian on 24/08/2011 14:59:07

As a super cap pilot myself I would suggest the following ...

1) Super caps / Titans unable to travel anywhere apart from 0.0, (personally, I would actually go as far as banning normal dreads and carriers from low-sec) and then maybe more people
would go to low-sec without getting hot dropped by 200 caps.

2) POS's Having real teeth and weapons ....... its so sad people are killing POS's with stealth bombers ... De-cloak, Fire, Cloak .... rinse and repeat.

3) Increase the build cost by x 10 (both titans and Supers) ..... I ran hoards for 3 weeks "alone" and refined enough minerals for a Super ..

4) Get rid of high end moons ..... there a license to print isk and without it .... then the super / titan fleets will slowly shrink (with also increasing the build costs.)

Just my view ....

T'Laar Bok
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:03:00 - [56]

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
As with almost all failing empires they will attempt to find an outside cause rather than look inwards.

You mean like the good ol' U.S.A?

Posted - 2011.08.24 16:18:00 - [57]

Make them a 0.0 toy only! Boost dreads so they can take them on

Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:24:00 - [58]

Edited by: Packe on 24/08/2011 16:24:43
Supers are mainly used to kill sov and pos structures and other caps.

Their usage will get nerfed to a certain extent simply by changng the machanics of sov. No more 10s of millions of ehp to chew through, which, frankly, is a waste of everyones time. If the damage becomes more focused on >1000 sig radius objects, then you can effectively reduce their utility without having to add clumsy game rules.

The Knights Templar
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:35:00 - [59]

its ridiculous that blob of supers can reinforce a bloody outpost in just a few minutes... and thats just a tip of the iceberg. supers are being dropped atm everywhere by a whim. on couple battleships or frig gang or whatever. seriously come on.

Tax Evasion Ltd
Posted - 2011.08.24 16:48:00 - [60]

Just give bombers the ability to do a "trench run" where they fly along the hull of the ship and shoot torps at a small exhaust port. If the run is successful, the super cap is instantly destroyed.

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