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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.31 15:20:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Olivor
Originally by: Don Pellegrino

Originally by: Olivor
Didn't you say at one point you were going to redesign the whole UI from scratch?

And instead we get a little add on to make it look a bit nicer... wow

Read the blog.
This is just a low-level and invisible (it's a LOT faster, though) change to make further major changes possible.


So, still not redesigning from scratch then, as they'll still be using the base code

This is a redesign from scratch. They just rewrote the core of the UI. They rewrote it in such a way that it can still run the old, top level, code as well as be used with a bunch of shiny new stuff. If you want them to rebuild it completely, they have to start work in the basement.

Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari
eNinjas Incorporated
Posted - 2011.05.31 17:01:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Originally by: CCP Snorlax
We considered several approaches to revamping the UI framework, but at the end of the day we realized that the EVE UI code base was far too big to consider rewriting the whole UI with some new paradigms. Whatever approach we would take for a new UI framework would have to involve minimal reworking of EVE UI code.


When I read this I read the exact opposite. They changed almost nothing in the UI core. So they only changed the wallpaper, but the building is just as spooky and haunted as before Wink
I find this worrisome. If there are bottlenecks in the core code it is likely they will never get found and fixed.

Read:
UI Framework = thing they rewrote which does the actual rendering
EVE UI = thing they left alone which tells the UI framework where to draw things

So a translation:
We considered several approaches to revamping the UI framework, but we realized that the code using the old framework was far too big to consider rewriting all of that as well. Whatever approach we would take for a new UI framework would have to involve minimal reworking of code that currently uses the old framework.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.31 17:07:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Olivor
Originally by: Don Pellegrino

Originally by: Olivor
Didn't you say at one point you were going to redesign the whole UI from scratch?

And instead we get a little add on to make it look a bit nicer... wow

Read the blog.
This is just a low-level and invisible (it's a LOT faster, though) change to make further major changes possible.


So, still not redesigning from scratch then, as they'll still be using the base code

This is a redesign from scratch. They just rewrote the core of the UI. They rewrote it in such a way that it can still run the old, top level, code as well as be used with a bunch of shiny new stuff. If you want them to rebuild it completely, they have to start work in the basement.



Exactly. From what I understand the original UI was very much ingrained in every aspect of the game's code. It wasn't a separate module, so rewriting it would essentially also require rewriting the rest of the game.

I'm guessing they will be able to rewrite portions of the underlying framework (old code) without modifying existing API's. This way, nothing breaks in the meantime (at least not drastic it-takes-weeks-to-fix issues), and we don't need to wait for another 3 years while they completely rewrite the whole game from scratch. In another year or two of iterations using the new spec, I'm sure there won't be any old UI code left. They may, or may not decide to continue programming the top layer in Python, however I've been impressed they're using Python for top-layer graphics programming, I'm sure it's just fine for the top level UI scripting. And faster to write, debug and deploy too.

Avaaloniaa
Posted - 2011.05.31 18:17:00 - [64]
 

So... Can we get bigger and/or scallable to the screen resolution fonts and buttons now, please?

Fred Kyong
Caldari
EWH NanoTex
Posted - 2011.05.31 19:01:00 - [65]
 

Way to go!

Next I would like to see a bar, a corporation briefing room (at the corp office maybe) to meet members. Same for a POS or Outpost.

Whoohoo

Mithrasith
Posted - 2011.05.31 20:44:00 - [66]
 

What I just read there?

"Hi, Im Mr. Epic and Im knocking on your computer screen. How do I look?"

You look pretty awesome Mr. Epic. Welcome home.


Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.05.31 21:50:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Falkrich Swifthand
Originally by: Louis deGuerre
Originally by: CCP Snorlax
We considered several approaches to revamping the UI framework, but at the end of the day we realized that the EVE UI code base was far too big to consider rewriting the whole UI with some new paradigms. Whatever approach we would take for a new UI framework would have to involve minimal reworking of EVE UI code.


When I read this I read the exact opposite. They changed almost nothing in the UI core. So they only changed the wallpaper, but the building is just as spooky and haunted as before Wink
I find this worrisome. If there are bottlenecks in the core code it is likely they will never get found and fixed.

Read:
UI Framework = thing they rewrote which does the actual rendering
EVE UI = thing they left alone which tells the UI framework where to draw things

So a translation:
We considered several approaches to revamping the UI framework, but we realized that the code using the old framework was far too big to consider rewriting all of that as well. Whatever approach we would take for a new UI framework would have to involve minimal reworking of code that currently uses the old framework.


I understand all this. This implies a badly designed EVE UI. Code not distinct etc. Which is worrisome in case they ever DO need to fix something.
I understand starting over and/or rewriting is not always an option, but it usually catches up with you eventually, usually at the worst possible moment. Wink

Sorgenbinder
Posted - 2011.05.31 23:11:00 - [68]
 

WTF has happened to PI? Without exception, the output of all my extractors has been nerfed by between 40 - 95%. One "hotspot" which was extracting 13k per hour is now extracting 600... This is crippling.

Mirwindor
Posted - 2011.06.01 00:19:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Sorgenbinder
WTF has happened to PI? Without exception, the output of all my extractors has been nerfed by between 40 - 95%. One "hotspot" which was extracting 13k per hour is now extracting 600... This is crippling.


Confirmed - PI extraction rates completely FUBAR

Brother Chang
Live Once Die Twice
New Edge Republic Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.01 01:03:00 - [70]
 

Yep....same here PI F'ed in the A big time....sitting on hotspot and numbers resetting to lower amount after fiddling with extractor head. Yay for 1.6 patch.

Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
Posted - 2011.06.01 03:25:00 - [71]
 

Edited by: Rasz Lin on 01/06/2011 05:06:17
so the UI coding became easier for you guys now? How about fixing Overview now? so we dont see RED planets/gates when we fight, and no double ship entries, no stuck elements, no ghost elements and so on? please?


edit: loaded the game, mmm silky smooth now, doing stuff in UI doesnt make the fps drop, thats nice

whats not nice is removal of some things - cant click on your bookamrks in solar system map now = cant center map on them

Bellator Militaris
Caldari
Freelancers Coalition
Joined Brotherhood
Posted - 2011.06.01 04:34:00 - [72]
 

Thats great, but when are you going to fix the overview? No ship color tags. Have to reload each time we jump. no greys no nothing, oh, yes i can see secure yellow secure containers in space. Bell.

Dredj Kwuan
Posted - 2011.06.01 05:22:00 - [73]
 

Acrually, you tell there is not visual difference but there is and its AWESOME ALREADY !

Kemoc Tregarth
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.01 05:48:00 - [74]
 

I am running the game under osx. I have a gt7300 core2 duo. I took a hit on this update I believe. The music stutters and there seem to be some jaggies that where not there before. I think it ran better before the update, for me anyhow.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.06.01 07:54:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Kemoc Tregarth
I am running the game under osx. I have a gt7300 core2 duo. I took a hit on this update I believe. The music stutters and there seem to be some jaggies that where not there before. I think it ran better before the update, for me anyhow.


Anti-Aliasing got disabled somehow by this patch. That would account for the jaggies. You need to manually enable it again.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.06.01 08:00:00 - [76]
 

I approve of this blog.

Originally by: Avaaloniaa
So... Can we get bigger and/or scallable to the screen resolution fonts and buttons now, please?

This, really. I have a screen with high pixel density (27", 2560x1440), so I'd greatly appreciate scalable UI elements.

Avaaloniaa
Posted - 2011.06.01 08:42:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Avaaloniaa on 01/06/2011 08:49:18
Originally by: Aineko Macx
I approve of this blog.

Originally by: Avaaloniaa
So... Can we get bigger and/or scallable to the screen resolution fonts and buttons now, please?

This, really. I have a screen with high pixel density (27", 2560x1440), so I'd greatly appreciate scalable UI elements.

Same here! I play on dual 24" screens at 3840x1200 resolution and reading anything is painful not to mention some of the buttons are super tiny and difficult to click on (for example the button that closes the current window, the information "i" button or the group/ungroup weapons button). The HUD is small as well and reading out shield/armour/hull values is nearly impossible too.

Please! Can we get this addressed? There were numerous threads about this problem but none of them, I believe, was responded to by CCP Devs.

Thank you in advance!

PS: I love how the amended interface performs - much smoother and quicker too. Cheers!

Aelita
Minmatar
CHON
THE R0NIN
Posted - 2011.06.01 11:23:00 - [78]
 

My experience past 1.6 is oposite in UI performance. New UI seems to be less responsible than older one. In most cases I need click more than once for same action just because my 1st click does nothing. Switching windows (focus) in UI take significantly longer and I think this is reason why 1st click does nothing. Change of shortcuts behaviour especially for combat actions like lock, approach, warp or jump/dock is pain with moving entitions in overview window. No more working action over focused and selected overview entity.

So -1 for me and new carbon UI

P.S. My FPS did drop on same HW from 50 to 30-35 with new patch.

PattyH
Posted - 2011.06.01 12:58:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: PattyH on 01/06/2011 13:07:17
PI rates seem to be randomly dropped a LOT in all of the installations I've looked at so far (I have a few PI alts, have not had a chance to check all of them so far). This might be related to whatever caused the somewhat longer-than-normal downtime today. They also seem to be random on how much they will drop from a given planet, but fairly consistant ON that planet.
This is a new issue, not the long-standing "if you do more than one edit, numbers drop AGAIN" issue nor the long-standing "the numbers you get after you SUBMIT tend to vary by up to a factor of anywhere from HALF to DOUBLE from the numbers shown before you SUBMIT" issue.


PI display will sometimes appear to "CLIP" an extractor head area against some unknown "plane" but that doesn't seem to affect the performance of that head based on it's numeric rating. This MIGHT be related somehow though, and this IS a new issue I've not seen happen before.


The ESC screen option menu checkboxes ARE A LOT HARDER TO READ now. I THINK they shrank in size some, and may have a bit lower contrast too now. I almost have to put my face in my screen to read them now, when they USED to be easily readable from my normal viewing distance.


It would be nice to be able to DOWNLOAD the patch during server downtime, rather than having to wait. Losing the downtime is one thing, losing the downtime AND the major additional time to download the patch (it took me almost a full DAY this time, which is normal for a 500ish meg patch via my only available ISP) AFTER the server finally comes up is far worse.
There is no LOGICAL reason the patch can't be put on the MANUAL DOWNLOAD page while the servers are still down, and this would help spread the load some on your download server which would make the patch process somewhat faster for everyone else.


It would have been nice to have more than 22 or so HOURS of advance notice of this large patch (I'm basing this on the date and time of the first posting that showed up in the in-game browser for this patch).

This was made worse for your US customers by the fact that the notice first showed up on our first "lots of folks travel during this summer holiday weekend" AKA Memorial Day weekend - I suspect a lot of folks didn't see the notice of the patch before the extended downtime had already hit. (I only mention the US part because the US probably has more Eve players than any other country, and likely more than any other 3 countries combined if Russia isn't one of those three - it's the SHORT TIMEFRAME on the advance notice of a LARGE patch that's the major issue here).

Transfer point
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:03:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Transfer point on 01/06/2011 14:43:40
Edited by: Transfer point on 01/06/2011 14:15:35
Originally by: Mirwindor
Originally by: Sorgenbinder
WTF has happened to PI? Without exception, the output of all my extractors has been nerfed by between 40 - 95%. One "hotspot" which was extracting 13k per hour is now extracting 600... This is crippling.


Confirmed - PI extraction rates completely FUBAR


A few things:

1/ if i located one head in the white i got 312 / cycle, one head when i clicked on the check box to activate was in the yellow and was getting 1700 / cycle this is from the same ECU.

2/ Some of my CC's are now cloaked and running things at the same timeShocked I can't wait for this new feature of cloaking to be added to my ships Twisted Evil

I'd recommend that people don't move any of their PI stuff until it's fixed. Even tho the numbers seem borked, look at your link capacities, mine haven't changed significantly even tho by the posted cycle amount numbers have.

Transfer point
Posted - 2011.06.01 14:11:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: PattyH
Edited by: PattyH on 01/06/2011 13:07:17

It would be nice to be able to DOWNLOAD the patch during server downtime, rather than having to wait. Losing the downtime is one thing, losing the downtime AND the major additional time to download the patch (it took me almost a full DAY this time, which is normal for a 500ish meg patch via my only available ISP) AFTER the server finally comes up is far worse.



Imagine how cranky you are going to be after you spend all that time to d/l the patch only to find out you need to d/l it a second time because while they were testing it on the server to check it out they found something majorly wrong and had to modify the patch as opposed to all the other stuff which tends to get broken with each patch that they don't deem important.

WyomingKnott
Posted - 2011.06.01 15:50:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Transfer point
Originally by: PattyH
Edited by: PattyH on 01/06/2011 13:07:17

It would be nice to be able to DOWNLOAD the patch during server downtime, rather than having to wait. Losing the downtime is one thing, losing the downtime AND the major additional time to download the patch (it took me almost a full DAY this time, which is normal for a 500ish meg patch via my only available ISP) AFTER the server finally comes up is far worse.



Imagine how cranky you are going to be after you spend all that time to d/l the patch only to find out you need to d/l it a second time because while they were testing it on the server to check it out they found something majorly wrong and had to modify the patch as opposed to all the other stuff which tends to get broken with each patch that they don't deem important.


They already make you do that. I've been hit 3 times this year alone by having to start downloading a new large patch from scratch when I didn't finish the download of the "old large patch" before the "new large patch" was deployed which caused my download of the "old large patch" to fail without possibility of resuming it.

It is bloody irritating to be 90% complete on a 1+ Gigabyte patch download only to have to redownload a new 1+ Gigabyte patch from scratch, as opposed to letting me complete the patch download of the old patch then JUST have to download a new SMALL patch that fixed whatever wasn't right in the big patch (I lost over a half week of access to Eve Online on the first Incursion patch due to this issue).



Back to the thread subject.
Response to mouse input in some cases is a TON slower since this patch than before.
UI drawing seems to be a bit slower at times. Response to "pin" and "unpin" is DEFINITELY slower, though it's not slow enough to be an issue. It's hard to judge on some other things as they access the server and what appears to be "slow UI" might actually be "slow connection" but the FEEL of the UI since the patch seems to be slower overall.

Like other folks I'm seeing horrible PI production numbers but with a lot of variation on HOW much they've dropped since this patch - it looks a lot like the "replenish resources" script didn't run during the last 2 downtimes, as the worst affected resources are the "low productivity deplete fast" ones as best as I can remember.

The UI checkboxes look to be a little smaller, and have gotten fancier in a "hard to read" way, across the board. Not just in the ESC setup screen, but also in places like the market and corporate management screens.


If this patch was supposed to improve performance, it has been a total failure from what I've seen so far.


Ghost ships in the overview are STILL happening. I saw one on another character while I was doing their PI runingaround this morning. I suspect that's supposed to be something that gets fixed in a later patch, though.

Transfer point
Posted - 2011.06.01 16:52:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: WyomingKnott
It is bloody irritating to be 90% complete on a 1+ Gigabyte patch download only to have to redownload a new 1+ Gigabyte patch from scratch, as opposed to letting me complete the patch download of the old patch then JUST have to download a new SMALL patch that fixed whatever wasn't right in the big patch (I lost over a half week of access to Eve Online on the first Incursion patch due to this issue).


You're making the assumption that they would make a small patch to update the one you were d/ling. When they swap the downloadable to the newer patch I can't see them writing a new update between the two for the few people who d/l'd the previous one. Although it's inconvenient and cuts into your play time you should just wait until the server goes back up, even then I'd give it a bit of time in case there is something wrong with it, like it deletes the boot.ini, since we know they've already done that once Evil or Very Mad

Leovarian Lavitz
Minmatar
Eternal Profiteers
Santa Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.06.01 19:42:00 - [84]
 

CCP Snorlax = awesome name! :D

PTM Zonic
Posted - 2011.06.01 20:26:00 - [85]
 

please just tell me it will now be possible for you to add more font sizes.

Neo Gabriel
Gallente
Percussive Diplomacy
The Phoenix. Consortium
Posted - 2011.06.01 23:56:00 - [86]
 

I just Want to demand this on my drive by post:

CCP, the GPU resources your second life in space uses is pretty ridiculous. I am used to play with 3 accounts simultaneously on 3 clietn s and I do not look forward to buy a new GPU every other mont because your poorly coded and implemented rendering machine is burning out my machine. IO also am not looking forward to having to pay extra for using that much more electricity for the cooling of my rig.

So either you find a way to drastically allow for lower resource usage while docked, or you better allow us to disable station environment while docked. If you do not allow players to run their clients at the same current gpu/processor load, then we will mod the game to do it for us. If you want to ban me for doing it, when i do it, then go right ahead because I wont destroy my thousands of dollars worth machine to run your second life in space. You will lose my business either way.

I will not monitor your responses to this thread, but if you want to contact me, you can use my email.

That is all.


Calistus Dominus
Posted - 2011.06.02 03:08:00 - [87]
 

After this patch, my UI has become extremely sluggish.

And, yes I have reset everything for optimal speed.

Whenever a patch comes out, I go to Pimsu's Old Meanie and run it. The number of things in space is always a good test.

And, I could barely even lock targets.

I apologize, as I know how much programming effort goes into things like this, but this is a bad patch for me.


Darth Helmat
Posted - 2011.06.02 03:23:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Olivor
Originally by: Don Pellegrino

Originally by: Olivor
Didn't you say at one point you were going to redesign the whole UI from scratch?

And instead we get a little add on to make it look a bit nicer... wow

Read the blog.
This is just a low-level and invisible (it's a LOT faster, though) change to make further major changes possible.


So, still not redesigning from scratch then, as they'll still be using the base code

This is a redesign from scratch. They just rewrote the core of the UI. They rewrote it in such a way that it can still run the old, top level, code as well as be used with a bunch of shiny new stuff. If you want them to rebuild it completely, they have to start work in the basement.



Now that they can render any window as a texture on any surface (if I understood the blog), its now trivial to scale any window by an arbitrary amount, yeah? So the next patch will fix the font size???

zCaldariMiner110214
Posted - 2011.06.02 15:22:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Transfer point
Originally by: WyomingKnott
It is bloody irritating to be 90% complete on a 1+ Gigabyte patch download only to have to redownload a new 1+ Gigabyte patch from scratch, as opposed to letting me complete the patch download of the old patch then JUST have to download a new SMALL patch that fixed whatever wasn't right in the big patch (I lost over a half week of access to Eve Online on the first Incursion patch due to this issue).


You're making the assumption that they would make a small patch to update the one you were d/ling. When they swap the downloadable to the newer patch I can't see them writing a new update between the two for the few people who d/l'd the previous one. Although it's inconvenient and cuts into your play time you should just wait until the server goes back up, even then I'd give it a bit of time in case there is something wrong with it, like it deletes the boot.ini, since we know they've already done that once Evil or Very Mad


CCP DOES make a "small patch" as a normal thing, as many or most folks that play Eve seem to have fast enough connections to download a Gig patch in an hour or two while the "new patch" generally doesn't show up for a DAY or two. Sometimes longer (I'm expecting a 'patch to fix THIS patch any day now, am a bit unhappy it's taking them THIS long to figure out how to fix the PI stuff they broke, the other issues I've seen so far have been minor).


Two more bugs I've noticed.

(1) MAJOR CRITICAL BUG.
I have one world that flat out will not display the Resource Control Units or the Launchpad. PERIOD. I've tried hardware rebooting the machine, I've tried 2 other machines, don't matter. I can see the resource HEADS (including 2 that are "clipped", I can see ONE of the 3 factories on that world, but the launchpad and both of the Resource Control Unit things just flat out AREN'T THERE (and the other 2 factories aren't either, but since I don't need to adjust those it's a less critical issue as long as they're actually WORKING but just graphically missing).
This makes it IMPOSSIBLE to update the resources, which means this world is going to be offline for me - I can't access the disappeared facilities, but they're still there taking up resources and there is no way to remove them when the entire icon for the things are not THERE and there is no "alternate access" method to get TO them as far as I've been able to find.

Yes, I filed a bug report petition over this one.

No, it doesn't seem to be a COMMON issue - but it's yet another indication that CCP did something serious in this patch FUBAR planetary interaction.

(2) Mouse-over of the wallet gives completely different number from opening the wallet and looking at the info there, at least part of the time. Irritating but not critical.



And as it happens I'd never heard of one of their patch deleting boot.ini - mabey 'cause I make a point of NOT running in ADMIN to make it a lot harder for Joe Random Program to do that sort of thing accidentally.


zCaldariMiner110214
Posted - 2011.06.02 15:33:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Neo Gabriel
I just Want to demand this on my drive by post:

CCP, the GPU resources your second life in space uses is pretty ridiculous. I am used to play with 3 accounts simultaneously on 3 clietn s and I do not look forward to buy a new GPU every other mont because your poorly coded and implemented rendering machine is burning out my machine. IO also am not looking forward to having to pay extra for using that much more electricity for the cooling of my rig.

So either you find a way to drastically allow for lower resource usage while docked, or you better allow us to disable station environment while docked. If you do not allow players to run their clients at the same current gpu/processor load, then we will mod the game to do it for us. If you want to ban me for doing it, when i do it, then go right ahead because I wont destroy my thousands of dollars worth machine to run your second life in space. You will lose my business either way.

I will not monitor your responses to this thread, but if you want to contact me, you can use my email.

That is all.




If you run on low settings, the GPU requirements to run Eve are QUITE LOW.
Comparable to that WoW thing. A hair lighter than Everquest. A LOT lighter than many current non-MMORG games.

Eve will run tolerably well on a current ENTRY LEVEL MACHINE WITH ONBOARD GRAPHICS like any AMD Athlon/Semperon with the 740G or higher chipsets (Netbooks are not "entry level", they're "able to to run minimal stuff for super cheap" IMO - though I've seen reports that Eve runs tolerably well on the NVidia Atom with a fast-enough CPU and enough RAM).

For reference, Eve runs reasonably well at low settings on old Nvidia 6100/6150 onboard graphic machines with 1 Gig ram and a Semperon (I use a couple of those machines for my researcher alts when they make their monthlyish "run around all over to grab datacores and stick them in the corp hanger for my main to collect later" runs). The performance of the GPU in those machines is WAY below the current "entry level", you almost can't GET that low of graphics performance any more outside of netbooks and MABEY Intel "Extreme(ly slow) Graphics" junk that NO gamer would ever seriously look at.


Eve is only seriously GPU intensive when you turn the graphic settings way up, or somewhat in the New Lag Creator system they call the new character creator.


You, Neo, fail as a troll. 8-P



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