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Olivor
Posted - 2011.05.30 21:31:00 - [31]
 

Didn't you say at one point you were going to redesign the whole UI from scratch?

And instead we get a little add on to make it look a bit nicer... wow

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.05.30 21:32:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Don Pellegrino on 30/05/2011 21:33:18
Originally by: Franga
I predict some pretty big/serious bugs on this one. But one can't deny the fact that it's going to be much better in the long run. Sounds good.

It's been on Sisi for so long that I doubt something major will happen.

But they, this is CCP after all so maybe someone will find a way to access the GM menus or something, lol.

EDIT:
Originally by: Olivor
Didn't you say at one point you were going to redesign the whole UI from scratch?

And instead we get a little add on to make it look a bit nicer... wow

Read the blog.
This is just a low-level and invisible (it's a LOT faster, though) change to make further major changes possible.

Olivor
Posted - 2011.05.30 21:36:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Olivor on 30/05/2011 21:36:12
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Edited by: Don Pellegrino on 30/05/2011 21:33:18
Originally by: Olivor
Didn't you say at one point you were going to redesign the whole UI from scratch?

And instead we get a little add on to make it look a bit nicer... wow

Read the blog.
This is just a low-level and invisible (it's a LOT faster, though) change to make further major changes possible.


So, still not redesigning from scratch then, as they'll still be using the base code

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.05.30 21:46:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Evelgrivion on 30/05/2011 22:00:00
Originally by: Olivor
Edited by: Olivor on 30/05/2011 21:36:12
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
Edited by: Don Pellegrino on 30/05/2011 21:33:18
Originally by: Olivor
Didn't you say at one point you were going to redesign the whole UI from scratch?

And instead we get a little add on to make it look a bit nicer... wow

Read the blog.
This is just a low-level and invisible (it's a LOT faster, though) change to make further major changes possible.


So, still not redesigning from scratch then, as they'll still be using the base code


It sounds like the Carbonization of the EVE UI involved putting a new wrapper around the legacy code to make it prettier and, depending on what parts of the legacy code base are ignored, faster. The stated goal of Carbonization is to create a platform agnostic code-base that can be picked up and used for other MMOs from CCP. Isn't this precisely the kind of shortcut you wanted to avoid when starting this project in the first place? ugh

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.05.30 21:56:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: CCP Snorlax
We appreciate your help with spotting anything unexpected, and we'll be monitoring all the usual channels carefully.


That is a generous statement. But I must ask: what about the current issues with the UI such as the foobar'd chat windows where wrapped text bunches up and overlaps with lines above or what about the 'ghost' selection highlights on items in station inventory windows?

Also, what are the "usual channels" and what are the best means for users to communicate found issues? Bug reports? Official "issue" threads?

Olivor
Posted - 2011.05.30 22:18:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Olivor on 30/05/2011 22:18:47
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 30/05/2011 22:00:00

It sounds like the Carbonization of the EVE UI involved putting a new wrapper around the legacy code to make it prettier and, depending on what parts of the legacy code base are ignored, faster. The stated goal of Carbonization is to create a platform agnostic code-base that can be picked up and used for other MMOs from CCP. Isn't this precisely the kind of shortcut you wanted to avoid when starting this project in the first place? ugh


I think the fact of the matter is that CCP don't seemingly know how half their code works anymore... So instead of redesigning it from scratch so it can be worked on easier in the future they're continuing with this half hearted approach which may look nice but is only (wall)papering over the cracks.

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.30 23:08:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Olivor
Edited by: Olivor on 30/05/2011 22:18:47
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 30/05/2011 22:00:00

It sounds like the Carbonization of the EVE UI involved putting a new wrapper around the legacy code to make it prettier and, depending on what parts of the legacy code base are ignored, faster. The stated goal of Carbonization is to create a platform agnostic code-base that can be picked up and used for other MMOs from CCP. Isn't this precisely the kind of shortcut you wanted to avoid when starting this project in the first place? ugh


I think the fact of the matter is that CCP don't seemingly know how half their code works anymore... So instead of redesigning it from scratch so it can be worked on easier in the future they're continuing with this half hearted approach which may look nice but is only (wall)papering over the cracks.


As a developer myself, I can say this is definitely not just papering over the cracks. Wink

Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.05.30 23:12:00 - [38]
 

Thanks for the blog. One thing that wasn't entirely clear, perhaps due to misreading: does the new framework support pushing elements forward and back in z-space relative to whatever model a UI texture sits on? (ie. making an element pop out on mouseover)

Jennifer Nardieu
Posted - 2011.05.30 23:22:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc
Originally by: Olivor
Edited by: Olivor on 30/05/2011 22:18:47
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 30/05/2011 22:00:00

It sounds like the Carbonization of the EVE UI involved putting a new wrapper around the legacy code to make it prettier and, depending on what parts of the legacy code base are ignored, faster. The stated goal of Carbonization is to create a platform agnostic code-base that can be picked up and used for other MMOs from CCP. Isn't this precisely the kind of shortcut you wanted to avoid when starting this project in the first place? ugh


I think the fact of the matter is that CCP don't seemingly know how half their code works anymore... So instead of redesigning it from scratch so it can be worked on easier in the future they're continuing with this half hearted approach which may look nice but is only (wall)papering over the cracks.


As a developer myself, I can say this is definitely not just papering over the cracks. Wink


As lord of the universe and all that is in it.

I can definitely say there seem to be a lot of "well we wanted to, but we didn't" styled comments in this blog.

The UI performance is a nightmare and the thing that scares me the most are the words that suggested we can expect slower performance from the new UI code.

Does any of the UI improvement go towards fixing the tiny tiny little annoying delaying niggles that eve players experience every day?

I understand iterative development and the need to deliver but please don't say you're not re-writing the core underlying UI code because "here be dragons". Grab a sword and shield and go slay the damn things if you have to.

Ask what would your developers do differently now, if they could turn back time and build the entire UI backend from the ground up? Then do that.

Phantom Slave
Universal Pest Exterminators
Posted - 2011.05.31 00:07:00 - [40]
 

I currently have a bug report (ID 111168) that's unfiltered with problems with the Duality UI. It was originally filtered with the bug hunter asking for more information and it hasn't been filtered again since I updated with more screenshots and some information about what I'm experiencing.

Hoping it isn't the same build that's going on TQ, or that the issue has been fixed internally.

DaiTengu
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.31 00:21:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
CCP Snorlax? Nice name, it means snot-salmon in Swedish Very Happy

But I guess it goes well with that rotten shark you eat? Wink


Should I ever pursue a position with Crowd Control Productions, makers of Eve Online, a terrible spaceship game, based in Iceland, I shall make sure my name is CCP SnotSalmon

Ephemeral Waves
Silver Snake Enterprise
Posted - 2011.05.31 00:40:00 - [42]
 

So... you're messing with the UI. Well past time. But, while doing that, did you fix the font? It is much more important to know the difference between 0 and O; B and 8; and G and 6 than whether you can make 3d looking windows.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.31 01:52:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Evelgrivion
It sounds like the Carbonization of the EVE UI involved putting a new wrapper around the legacy code to make it prettier and, depending on what parts of the legacy code base are ignored, faster. The stated goal of Carbonization is to create a platform agnostic code-base that can be picked up and used for other MMOs from CCP. Isn't this precisely the kind of shortcut you wanted to avoid when starting this project in the first place? ugh

This would have been a valid concern if it wasn't COMPLETELY OPPOSITE of what was actually done, and only servers to highlight how IGNORANT you are.

The fact is they replaced the underlying UI code making it more flexible and faster, while the UI-using python code now uses a legacy API wrapper and could thus be left unchanged for the time being.

mkint
Posted - 2011.05.31 02:04:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Nardieu
Originally by: Jim Luc
Originally by: Olivor
Edited by: Olivor on 30/05/2011 22:18:47
Originally by: Evelgrivion
Edited by: Evelgrivion on 30/05/2011 22:00:00

It sounds like the Carbonization of the EVE UI involved putting a new wrapper around the legacy code to make it prettier and, depending on what parts of the legacy code base are ignored, faster. The stated goal of Carbonization is to create a platform agnostic code-base that can be picked up and used for other MMOs from CCP. Isn't this precisely the kind of shortcut you wanted to avoid when starting this project in the first place? ugh


I think the fact of the matter is that CCP don't seemingly know how half their code works anymore... So instead of redesigning it from scratch so it can be worked on easier in the future they're continuing with this half hearted approach which may look nice but is only (wall)papering over the cracks.


As a developer myself, I can say this is definitely not just papering over the cracks. Wink


As lord of the universe and all that is in it.

I can definitely say there seem to be a lot of "well we wanted to, but we didn't" styled comments in this blog.

The UI performance is a nightmare and the thing that scares me the most are the words that suggested we can expect slower performance from the new UI code.

Does any of the UI improvement go towards fixing the tiny tiny little annoying delaying niggles that eve players experience every day?

I understand iterative development and the need to deliver but please don't say you're not re-writing the core underlying UI code because "here be dragons". Grab a sword and shield and go slay the damn things if you have to.

Ask what would your developers do differently now, if they could turn back time and build the entire UI backend from the ground up? Then do that.


You folks don't seem to get what this is exactly... Old code = a finicky balancing act where modifying one thing breaks everything else. new code = everything works on it's own so can be modified and optimized on it's own. Old code = inefficiencies make any changes to cause worsening client side performance. New code = efficiencies have already let the devs work out better client side performance than has been seen in years.

On top of the code, new or old, is the actual UI visuals that include brackets and windows and stuff. Of course, once the UI designers with their gawd awful concepts of usability and aesthetics get their grubby hands on it, it's gonna go to crap, but the sisi client performance is beautiful. This is probably gonna be the single best patch in years. To be followed in a month by what will probably be one of the worst (almost as bad as Tyrranis... seriously that expansion sucked ass.)

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.05.31 02:32:00 - [45]
 

I think a lot of people complaining about the absence of a "complete UI rewrite" forget what kind of box of worms that would open.
"New is better" unfortunately often only applies on small-scale code-bases or those with simple features.
Once a project gets sufficiently large and complex you will inevitably run into the situation where towards the end of your "complete rewrite" the basics of it are already semi-obsolete again or have so many addends tacked onto it that it is often more effective to burn through the old code step by step.
Not to mention that Q&A for UI-stuff with complex specifications surprisingly enough is a true nightmare...

fgft Athonille
Posted - 2011.05.31 02:48:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: fgft Athonille on 31/05/2011 02:48:34
new code
old code

you will find a way to make it look like total sh*t.

let us make ui mods

Lidia Prince
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.31 06:30:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Lidia Prince on 31/05/2011 06:31:51
Hope it will work well. Keep up a good work, CCP.

IZZY EPIC
Caldari
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2011.05.31 07:15:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: IZZY EPIC on 31/05/2011 07:17:11
Walking In station, a step in some direction to eve.
taking aways NPC standings from public a step back to the stone age!
cant win me by throwing some glitter in the air infront of me!
you gone no where in my eyes! Confused

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.05.31 08:10:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 31/05/2011 08:13:41
Originally by: Olivor
I think the fact of the matter is that CCP don't seemingly know how half their code works anymore... So instead of redesigning it from scratch so it can be worked on easier in the future they're continuing with this half hearted approach which may look nice but is only (wall)papering over the cracks.

you should work on your reading comprehension skills...

let me put the devblog into a car analogy for you: CCP replaced the motor, suspension & chassis of the car but left the interior & couchwork untouched.

The devblog says exactly the opposite of your posts - they did rewrite the old, slow, ugly core code but didn't yet get around to change the wallpaper.

They redesigned their framework (probably not from scratch as you almost never design anything from scratch in the real world but they did some massive changes and probably rewrote a lot of ancient code) so it can be worked easier with in the future. That's the whole message of the devblog.

Hrug
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.31 08:12:00 - [50]
 

Nice to hear there's improvement happening under the hood. Looking forward to seeing the effects of this once it hits TQ.

A question, however: Are the new menus and UI elements shown on the screenshots the final version of what the new UI for Incarna will look like?

I'm asking because they look somewhat cumbersome. And those contrasty gradients in the menus remind me of those old, table-designed websites from 10 years ago...

Will we be able to alter the colors like we can for the rest of the UI?

BubbaGump ShrimpCo
Blue Republic
Posted - 2011.05.31 08:16:00 - [51]
 

I would love to hear that the UI is going to be more responsive. One of the major drawbacks for playing EVE on cheaper computers is that no matter how much you lower the graphics quality settings, even moderately fast computers with slowish graphics cards have a high-latency UI. It makes it feel like you're playing in a land of mud.

Qoi
Exert Force
Posted - 2011.05.31 08:17:00 - [52]
 

Expected only shiny whizzbang, read about performance improvements: hell yeah!

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.05.31 08:43:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
The devblog says exactly the opposite of your posts - they did rewrite the old, slow, ugly core code but didn't yet get around to change the wallpaper.

They redesigned their framework (probably not from scratch as you almost never design anything from scratch in the real world but they did some massive changes and probably rewrote a lot of ancient code) so it can be worked easier with in the future. That's the whole message of the devblog.


Originally by: CCP Snorlax
We considered several approaches to revamping the UI framework, but at the end of the day we realized that the EVE UI code base was far too big to consider rewriting the whole UI with some new paradigms. Whatever approach we would take for a new UI framework would have to involve minimal reworking of EVE UI code.


When I read this I read the exact opposite. They changed almost nothing in the UI core. So they only changed the wallpaper, but the building is just as spooky and haunted as before Wink
I find this worrisome. If there are bottlenecks in the core code it is likely they will never get found and fixed.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.05.31 09:37:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Olivor
Didn't you say at one point you were going to redesign the whole UI from scratch?

And instead we get a little add on to make it look a bit nicer... wow


I don't recall them talking about rewriting the whole thing from scratch. Redesigning, yes.

For more information about redesigning code on the fly, look up two books: Working Effectively with Legacy Code and Refactoring.

You can redesign without rewriting. That's what CCP are doing, have faith.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.31 10:11:00 - [55]
 

Good stuff CCP...glad to see things moving forward with the UI and Carbon framework.

John McCreedy
Caldari
Eve Defence Force
Posted - 2011.05.31 11:06:00 - [56]
 

Correct me if I have this wrong but the blog seems to be refering to the UI within a station enviroment, specifically the new Incarna station enviroments? If this is correct, can and if so, will this technology be applied to the in-space UI that by and large is also the same as it was 8 years ago? Not that there's anything wrong with the current UI, I'm just interested to know Smile

Justin Cody
Caldari
T.A.L.O.N. Company
B4D W01F
Posted - 2011.05.31 12:59:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Jennifer Nardieu


As lord of the universe and all that is in it.

I can definitely say there seem to be a lot of "well we wanted to, but we didn't" styled comments in this blog.

The UI performance is a nightmare and the thing that scares me the most are the words that suggested we can expect slower performance from the new UI code.

Does any of the UI improvement go towards fixing the tiny tiny little annoying delaying niggles that eve players experience every day?

I understand iterative development and the need to deliver but please don't say you're not re-writing the core underlying UI code because "here be dragons". Grab a sword and shield and go slay the damn things if you have to.

Ask what would your developers do differently now, if they could turn back time and build the entire UI backend from the ground up? Then do that.


If you paid attention you will note that this carbonization of the UI is what will let them slay said dragons in the future. They are building the siege equipment to lay waste to the dragon and its lair in one fell swoop.

Call it Tactical Programming. They are giving you performance boosts now and laying the groundwork for a modernization of the UI that will not only update but take it to a level beyond what I think even you could expect.

A while ago they enabled the new experimental UI on Sisi and I tried it out. Its different and might have some advantages but I'm sure it will not in the end look how I saw it. You will likely have a modular UI that will lend itself to more customization and adaptability to the pilots' needs in EVE. This is phase 1 son don't be such a downer.

Justin Cody
Caldari
T.A.L.O.N. Company
B4D W01F
Posted - 2011.05.31 13:01:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: John McCreedy
Correct me if I have this wrong but the blog seems to be refering to the UI within a station enviroment, specifically the new Incarna station enviroments? If this is correct, can and if so, will this technology be applied to the in-space UI that by and large is also the same as it was 8 years ago? Not that there's anything wrong with the current UI, I'm just interested to know Smile


Lol wait what? same as 8 years ago? You must be ****ting me. I mena it has been a while since major changes were made...but there was a era before overviews...and when I had to toggle between high med and low slots and all kinds of other junk.

I think you are insane. And to answer your question... yes this applies to the in-space UI. This is a universal improvement for the UI.

Sino Sarn
THORN Syndicate
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.05.31 13:36:00 - [59]
 

when the hell is ccp gonna nerf supers already?

Chuck Skull
b.b.k
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.05.31 14:18:00 - [60]
 

Good work. Very Happy

Quote:
Not enough attention had been given to the framework itself in the rush to add new features


There's a lesson in there somewhere. Wink



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