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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.28 15:58:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Ami Nia
As for Akita's suggestion that AUR could be traded on the market, that will not work because the market is based on a very specific data organization in the database that is not there for AUR (specifically: you can only trade on the market something that has a non null value in field invTypes.marketGroupID, but AUR is not even a record in table invTypes, it's just a "balance" in your wallet).

We've been asking for a "stockmarket" of sorts (to trade shares and such other intangibles) for ages, there's no reason this couldn't eventually happen.
The shares must already have an unique ID anyway, obviously a different type of ID than tangible items, but still some ID... else how exactly can the system know which shares do we have ?

Isaar Kirom
Posted - 2011.05.28 16:03:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ami Nia
As for Akita's suggestion that AUR could be traded on the market, that will not work because the market is based on a very specific data organization in the database that is not there for AUR (specifically: you can only trade on the market something that has a non null value in field invTypes.marketGroupID, but AUR is not even a record in table invTypes, it's just a "balance" in your wallet).

We've been asking for a "stockmarket" of sorts (to trade shares and such other intangibles) for ages, there's no reason this couldn't eventually happen.
The shares must already have an unique ID anyway, obviously a different type of ID than tangible items, but still some ID... else how exactly can the system know which shares do we have ?


EVE is already the most complex game (at least MMO) on the market. All these additions people want are going to require more resources from CCP. Short of raising subscription costs, which is something they don't want to do, the only way to do this is to find ways for people to voluntarily pump more money into their coffers. Thus we get PLEX -> AUR.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.28 16:18:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Isaar Kirom
EVE is already the most complex game (at least MMO) on the market. All these additions people want are going to require more resources from CCP. Short of raising subscription costs, which is something they don't want to do, the only way to do this is to find ways for people to voluntarily pump more money into their coffers. Thus we get PLEX -> AUR.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China ?
It's not like CCP is running at a zero accounting balance, and it's not like they never hire new staff, and it's not like they're not involved in TWO other completely separate games.
Sure, they would like more money, WHO WOULDN'T... but to suggest that finding the manpower to work on some rather basic functionalities that have been neglected so long is simply and only a matter of total income is at best laughable.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.05.28 21:45:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 28/05/2011 21:48:48
Akita, you obviously dont know how many people it takes to maintain the accounts of even a small savings and loan. and on top of that they have to bring in outside Auditors all the time just to double check there work.

Now you want a company that has a history of trouble properly accounting for mats in industrial processes due to all of the Bookkeeping shortcuts that they take that would never muster with any real world standardised accounting bookkeeping or inventory system. . .to create a working stock exchange. . . .

Given the scale of what goes on every hour of every day in this game I would say at a minimum you would need a full 7 man Accounting system development team about a year TO FIX THE CURRENT SYSTEM.

thats before they could actualy go in and start codework to impliment any real world based stockmarket, comidity market and so on.


Ami Nia
Posted - 2011.05.28 23:45:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ami Nia
As for Akita's suggestion that AUR could be traded on the market, that will not work because the market is based on a very specific data organization in the database that is not there for AUR (specifically: you can only trade on the market something that has a non null value in field invTypes.marketGroupID, but AUR is not even a record in table invTypes, it's just a "balance" in your wallet).

We've been asking for a "stockmarket" of sorts (to trade shares and such other intangibles) for ages, there's no reason this couldn't eventually happen.
The shares must already have an unique ID anyway, obviously a different type of ID than tangible items, but still some ID... else how exactly can the system know which shares do we have ?
I'm not saying that a stock market or a forex system is not possible. Of course it is, at least in theory. But there are complexity and performance issues. I'm saying that even if two "features" appear just that the gamer's point of view, they may be completely different in terms of development cost and risk.

Market is designed for something very specific: stacks of item types. You cannot put on the market a specific item, just a stack of undifferentiated stuff with a common item type. That's why you need repair and repackage before selling on the market. And you cannot put on the market BPCs.

You also cannot put on the market AUR, shares, and isks themself. I do not know for sure how these are handled in the DB because there's nothing in the public DB dump (and schema) about them. It may be possible to infer something from the way they are reported in the API accessible XMLs, but I did not look into the APIs.

I speculate that if/when CCP decides to tackle these aspects they will eventually develop a whole infrastructure for them. That involves not only the server software but the database structure too and a cluster wide direct interaction with the database backing for it (unlike the market that is regional). This would enable multiple currencies, a forex, a stock exchange etc. etc. They are all similar problems.

CCP needs to plan ahead and do heavy testing as this would be a new major subsystem and it will impact almost all other aspects of the server functionality. A distributed solution may be possible but IMO not gonna happen until the HPC industry solves the current problems with reliable low-latency messaging and direct memory transactions across systems.

My opinion.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.29 04:08:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
Akita, you obviously dont know how many people it takes to maintain the accounts of even a small savings and loan. and on top of that they have to bring in outside Auditors all the time just to double check there work.

This so-called "stock market" we're asking for, in its simplest and initially sufficient form would be nothing more than a regular market where the item IDs of stackable items would be replaced by the intangible's unique IDs, and there would be no limitation regarding location (or, if you insist, you could have separate ones for different regions, for optimization purposes).
They basically need to copypaste the market code, replace one set of ID calls with another set of ID calls, strip out a bunch of stuff, test it's not broken, done.
Simple ? Yes. Easy ? No. Hard/long work, sure, but not complicated.

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.05.29 04:16:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 29/05/2011 04:18:07
ok from what I remember from previous discutions with developers

Plex has a Unique ID number that is permient for it from the instant of creation to the instant it is consumed. they also know how said plex was payed for.


BPOs also are unique from the instant they can no longer be restacked as individual units

Ships and modules have a Uniqe ID number from the insant they are assembled or instaled untill the instant they are removed from gameplay by distruction or repackaged.

basicaly they can know that your ship used to be a ship and not a package, and they know which stack of otherwise identical pacages your ship goes into when its repackaged and stacked, but beyond that point the system no longer knows nore cares which one was your ship(IE if you had a Kestral, repackaged it, restacked it into a lot of 10,000 othe Kessies, the system will not be able to tell you wich one was your ship, however they can tell you that you put it in the stack of 10,001 other kesstrals at station X of moon Y of planet Z which you reprocessed on April 2 2010 because you could not sell them.

Each individual stack of ore or ammo or modules or whatever has its own Unique ID, but not each and every item in said stack. Bascialy the ID is tied to what is basicaly a counter,

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.29 05:02:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Steve Thomas
(each) PLEX has an unique ID number that is permanent for it from the instant of creation to the instant it is consumed.

That's unlikely, considering they can be stacked and sold on the market.
Can you find any reference to that anywhere ?

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.05.29 19:39:00 - [39]
 

On two diferent occasions they have stated that they knew Exactly how each plex was payed for. once recently related to the Plex for Good:Japan and previously when they indicated that they could track a plex that was created from a stolen CC or Debt account number to its final user.

Quote:
Will the money be paid to the charity in dollars or Euros?

PLEX purchased in Euros will be donated in US dollars, but the amount will equal the original Euro value.

Does CCP profit if I buy PLEX in euros which is then donated and converted to a dollar value?

PLEX purchased in euros will be donated for the full amount. CCP will absorb any VAT charges incurred so that the charity receives the full amount donated by players.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/PLEX_for_GOOD#Will_the_money_be_paid_to_the_charity_in_dollars_or_Euros.3F

Unless they ment something completly diferent, they aparently convert the value of each "Europlex" to the then current USD value and record that at the point/time of purchase

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2011.05.29 19:49:00 - [40]
 

I believe CCP has already stated that they will not build stock exchanges or banks ingame. That's something that the player base can easily do themselves with the given tools.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.29 20:11:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 29/05/2011 20:11:52
Originally by: Brock Nelson
I believe CCP has already stated that they will not build stock exchanges or banks ingame. That's something that the player base can easily do themselves with the given tools.

Banks, sure, that I can easily understand, but for different reasons.

Stock exchanges however, no. WE DO NOT have the necessary tools.
The necessary tool would be the ability to exchange shares like items - be it through some form of market or some form of contract.
Right now, all you can do is TRUST the other person to send the shares/ISK. No guarantees.

Brock Nelson
Posted - 2011.05.29 20:19:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Brock Nelson on 29/05/2011 20:25:13
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 29/05/2011 20:11:52
Originally by: Brock Nelson
I believe CCP has already stated that they will not build stock exchanges or banks ingame. That's something that the player base can easily do themselves with the given tools.

Banks, sure, that I can easily understand, but for different reasons.

Stock exchanges however, no. WE DO NOT have the necessary tools.
The necessary tool would be the ability to exchange shares like items - be it through some form of market or some form of contract.
Right now, all you can do is TRUST the other person to send the shares/ISK. No guarantees.


Block seems to handle that pretty well so far.

Trust has always been something that's hard to obtain in this game. See Factory Manager role, Director Role, Trade windows, etc.

Edit: I should clarify that Stock Exchanges is more about meta-gaming which is hard to implement in the game.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.29 20:49:00 - [43]
 

You don't really need a "proper" stockmarket with everything that it involves ingame, just a regular market where you trade stocks like any other items. Players CAN take it from there easily.

Can you imagine how the economy would look like if the regular market would not exist, contracts would not exist, the direct trade window would not exist, and the only way to exchange something would be to donate your stuff and hope the other party donates the stuff you agreed with back ? Ouch. But that's basically how the exchange of stocks works now.

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
Posted - 2011.05.30 11:09:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Akita T
You don't really need a "proper" stockmarket with everything that it involves ingame, just a regular market where you trade stocks like any other items. Players CAN take it from there easily.



Exactly, as a matter of fact, i don't see the issue. Just create a new 'item' category in the market window.
When you issue shares, an market item with the corp name is added to the overview and the 'items' (=shares) can be sold and bought like any other item.

The tricky part is that this overview will be really full after some time, so the only thing that needs to be added is some sort of option 'recently traded' to filter out the garbage.

Further this market perhaps should be limited to one location.

Ami Nia
Posted - 2011.05.30 11:28:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: clixor
Exactly, as a matter of fact, i don't see the issue. Just create a new 'item' category in the market window.
When you issue shares, an market item with the corp name is added to the overview and the 'items' (=shares) can be sold and bought like any other item.

The tricky part is that this overview will be really full after some time, so the only thing that needs to be added is some sort of option 'recently traded' to filter out the garbage.
The real issue has nothing to do with a crowded overview. The real issue is that they would have to add a new object type whenever a corporation is created. However the table containing object types is basically a static readonly table and is eventually cached locally on each SOL at startup or soon after (and probably even locally on each client). It also is the largest table in the static database. Making that table dynamic could have a very very large impact.

Gillaboo
Posted - 2011.05.30 11:39:00 - [46]
 

Back to the topic of AURUM...

Initially, most folks will take the most direct route... buy PLEX and exchange for Aurum, buy what they want, then wait and see where the market eventually settles.

As always, the clever speculators will have a great time.

But like anything else, once the novelty wears off, prices will settle down.

As long as CCP is selling PLEX, CCP is happy. So be good little digital consumers and buy "stuff". Wink

Ludacrys
Posted - 2011.05.30 14:01:00 - [47]
 

The PLEX to AURUM conversion is a one way street, so every plex exchanged for aurum is gone forever from the game, this is just a plex sink so CCP can keep "legit" RMTrs happy

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.05.30 18:42:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Steve Thomas on 30/05/2011 18:43:48
ok why would the people who are spending ISK to play be happy about this change?

the way I see it you will have the following groups of players.

A) buy a plex from CCP (or convert a gtc), toss it into the arrrum shreader and buy what they want for themselves

A1) a subset of this will be using the second plex to buy another month of game time or just drop it in ye auld cargo bay and forget about it.

A2) a second subset of this group will sell off the surplus plex for ISK, meaning that theres a few more avalible in the supply side and helping slightly push prices down

B)people who buy Plex with ISK, thoes get dumped into the Arrum shreader and disapear, meaning that theres fewer plex avalible, so the price will go up drawing more RMT money to plex instead, driving up the price of plex, and priceing out some of the people who use plex to pay for 1 or more accounts, and causing others to spend more time not playing the game and grinding to play the game.


Overall I suspect that for every 3 plex CCP gets from people who buy plex with isk they will end up loosing 2 plex from people who will not be able or willing to pay the bump up in plex price.*

but that all depends on how many people are like me and who buy a plex with Cash from CCP for the express purpose of getting Arrum and how many will bascialy spend ISK to get plex.

*Ie I suspect that rougly 80% of the Plex converted to Arrum will be Ingame plex that already exists in the marketplace, not Plex that is bought specificaly to be turned into goldrum

Lederstrumpf
Posted - 2011.05.30 23:26:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 30/05/2011 23:28:15
Originally by: James Vayne

•Some people play this game for free. Buying PLEX only to convert to game time.

[..]

So how to address this problem?



Aurum. And lipstick. Sold for Aurum.

Fashion is cool. I'd pay PLEX for Borat fashion! http://tinyurl.com/4y4dnyx

Seminole Sun
Posted - 2011.05.31 01:22:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Ami Nia
Originally by: clixor
Exactly, as a matter of fact, i don't see the issue. Just create a new 'item' category in the market window.
When you issue shares, an market item with the corp name is added to the overview and the 'items' (=shares) can be sold and bought like any other item.

The tricky part is that this overview will be really full after some time, so the only thing that needs to be added is some sort of option 'recently traded' to filter out the garbage.
The real issue has nothing to do with a crowded overview. The real issue is that they would have to add a new object type whenever a corporation is created. However the table containing object types is basically a static readonly table and is eventually cached locally on each SOL at startup or soon after (and probably even locally on each client). It also is the largest table in the static database. Making that table dynamic could have a very very large impact.


There's no reason that I can see why you wouldn't use a set() for the corporation database structure... that way it's hashed for easy lookup and small so that it can be updated locally in relative real time...

I for one would love to see currency exchanges. Converting away from LP and into "local" currency would be awesome and currency exchanges would be relatively easy to implement. Simply an exchange ratio as a "price" and a quantity... No reason for Aurum not to be eventually in there.

Those people pointing out that Aurum is to be a plex sink are missing the point that aurum purchased (from PCs via an exchange) would still serve as a plex sink because new aurum can't come into the market without it. Of course, that all depends on having a working currency exchange.

Companion Qube
Minmatar
Electron Conservation Inc
SRS.
Posted - 2011.05.31 04:01:00 - [51]
 

I apologize if this has been said but my eyes glazed over after reading the first half of the original post.

Aurum is pegged to the dollar. Two plex cost $35 direct from CCP - it's no accident that the aurum conversion rate is 1750 per plex or 100 AUR per USD. Pegging aurum to ISK at a fixed rate would peg isk to the dollar, bad ****ing plan that.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.31 06:37:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 31/05/2011 07:34:54
Originally by: Companion Qube
Aurum is pegged to the dollar. Two plex cost $35 direct from CCP - it's no accident that the aurum conversion rate is 1750 per plex or 100 AUR per USD. Pegging aurum to ISK at a fixed rate would peg isk to the dollar, bad ****ing plan that.

You didn't quite think this through properly, did you ?
Here's a couple of "assist" questions:
1) How exactly is the value of AUR pegged to the value of ISK ?
2) If the value of PLEX is pegged to the USD, how is that different from the value of AUR being pegged to the USD ?


Edit : Misunderstanding. Didn't realize you were talking about the OP's jab at a fixed AUR<->ISK exchange rate.

Vierego
Vierego's Junk Imports
Posted - 2011.05.31 06:45:00 - [53]
 

I've said it several times, and I will say it again here.

Aurum is not going to end at decorative clothing.
We will eventually see buff items like Quafe Zero.




Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.31 06:50:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Vierego
I've said it several times, and I will say it again here. Aurum is not going to end at decorative clothing. We will eventually see buff items like Quafe Zero.

That is what most people fear and complain about, yes. And it might actually happen eventually. But we're not there yet, and it's not a certainty.

Vierego
Vierego's Junk Imports
Posted - 2011.05.31 07:10:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Vierego on 31/05/2011 07:19:25
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Vierego
I've said it several times, and I will say it again here. Aurum is not going to end at decorative clothing. We will eventually see buff items like Quafe Zero.

That is what most people fear and complain about, yes. And it might actually happen eventually. But we're not there yet, and it's not a certainty.


Here is why I have a strong feeling it may be going that route.
relevant



Companion Qube
Minmatar
Electron Conservation Inc
SRS.
Posted - 2011.05.31 07:20:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Companion Qube on 31/05/2011 07:35:54
Edited by: Companion Qube on 31/05/2011 07:29:25
Originally by: Akita T
You didn't quite think this through properly, did you ?
Here's a couple of "assist" questions:
1) How exactly is the value of AUR pegged to the value of ISK ?
2) If the value of PLEX is pegged to the USD, how is that different from the value of AUR being pegged to the USD ?

Are you intentionally trying to be a **** or is this a language barrier thing? AUR is pegged to the USD at a rate of 1 AUR per 0.01 USD according to the "convert PLEX to AUR" rate on Duality today. This is no different than pegging PLEX to the USD at $17.50 per plex. ISK has a variable conversion rate to USD according to the market demand for plex.

Pegging AUR directly to ISK as the OP suggested would remove CCP's ability to compete with black-market isk sellers by fixing the price of AUR, and reducing the demand for plex, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Oh wise forum warrior, what is there to "not think through properly" here?

I should add: the logical conclusion of all that is that CCP is interested in driving _up_ the price of PLEX over time, this allows legitimate PLEX RMT to compete with black-market RMT. Assuming CCP can drive PLEX prices high enough then non PLEX RMT becomes unattractive.

Also, forum posting ***** wars are awesome.

edit: This must be a language thing, maybe you're a **** too - who knows, but you're saying the same thing I am in your first post in the thread.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.31 07:32:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Companion Qube
Pegging AUR directly to ISK as the OP suggested

Ah, you were talking to the OP. Nevermind then, misunderstanding. Carry on.

Companion Qube
Minmatar
Electron Conservation Inc
SRS.
Posted - 2011.05.31 07:36:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Companion Qube
Pegging AUR directly to ISK as the OP suggested

Ah, you were talking to the OP. Nevermind then, misunderstanding. Carry on.

Heh, yeah, I ninja'd an edit in above - we're saying exactly the same thing.

Gillaboo
Posted - 2011.05.31 12:05:00 - [59]
 

Aurum in this game... who knows what the "currency" will be called in CCP's other games.

Micro transactions... giving players "stuff" to feed our vanity... CCP is simply incorporating that revenue stream into their business...and it's a safe bet this transaction model will be utilized in some similar form in their other games.

Really, can't see what all the fuss is about.

Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Global Economy Experts
Posted - 2011.05.31 14:11:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Isaar Kirom
EVE is already the most complex game (at least MMO) on the market. All these additions people want are going to require more resources from CCP. Short of raising subscription costs, which is something they don't want to do, the only way to do this is to find ways for people to voluntarily pump more money into their coffers. Thus we get PLEX -> AUR.

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China ?
It's not like CCP is running at a zero accounting balance, and it's not like they never hire new staff, and it's not like they're not involved in TWO other completely separate games.
Sure, they would like more money, WHO WOULDN'T... but to suggest that finding the manpower to work on some rather basic functionalities that have been neglected so long is simply and only a matter of total income is at best laughable.


I don't think it's so much that they can't or that they don't have people that can work on it. It's a matter of (besides other things, as mentioned, such as a PLEX sink) showing to the stakeholders that these vanity things are something valuable to be working on. The general thought is adding more functionality (or improving functionality) would lead to more or keep subscriptions and increase revenue. How do they know if they should be spending time instead on clothing and such?

If they just introduced them for ISK or something, that proves little. I'd throw away 20 Mil for some monocle or something. But requiring a PLEX makes people put their money where their mouth is. Someone has to lose out on $15 to break that PLEX into AUR. That's $15 more going towards someone's subscription instead of paid for by ISK. CCP can take these conversions directly to the stakeholders for them to approve more resources being focused on these kind of items, and with enough revenue they can even justify hiring a graphics designer specifically for it.

If it was a matter of them not having the money or resources, sure they could raise subscription prices. Some players would prefer that. Many others might quit. With a move like that there's no way they could tell whether an increase in revenue justifies spending resources on developing these vanity items, and they even risk a decrease in revenue.


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