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Sister Megarea
Sisters of Agony
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:41:00 - [391]
 

CCP:

Why did the most obvious thought not occur to you ?:

How about asking your customers/playerbase what they'd be willing to pay real money for and for how much ? You can (obviously) set restrictions such as "Nothing that affects game performance, i.e. weapons, ships, ammo, etc" (And for Ghu's sake, don't use questionpro.com again - 4 minutes *per question* to load for your last customer survey ???)

It was mentioned before in this thread, but it's worth mentioning again: How about letting clothing being craftable, with sales benefiting both CCP and the player ?

Has your on-staff economist looked at this idea, yet ? Has he any comments ? Personally, I cannot see this as doing anything but breaking immersion:
If 1 plex = 250,000,000 ISK = ~ $17 USD, it means items in game for aurum are not going to be cheap - Who in heck's going to spend real money only to allow them to sell top hats for 50 ISK (Which would be about the real value, compared to just about anything else in game);

Speaking of which, think on this:
1 Scourge Fury heavy missile =~ 500 ISK
AGM-114B/C Basic Hellfire: $25,000 USD
50 ISK =~ $1USD
(Of course, given the PLEX costs, 50 ISK actually = 0.34 cents)
So:
http://www.villagehatshop.com/jaxon_victorian_top_hat_black.html
$69 for a basic top hat, or 46.92 ISK

What do you think the chances are that we're actually going to see the decimal place moved over at least five places for Incarna purchases (thus, again, destroying the immersion)

This Aurum idea (or rather, the how of micro transactions/revenue generation for CCP) seriously needs to be re-thought.

I'm not against you guys making extra money from us - Heck, I might even be one of the customers, but certainly not if it's done in the current fashion of "hey, give us some extra money and we'll throw a few extra pixels on your account and you can just pretend it's all part of the in-game universe or experience."

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:42:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
At the moment on duality 1 GTC gives 3500 AUR.
assuming GTC costs 300mill isk.
1 AUR currently has a cost price of 85,714.29 isk.
as most GTC's cost over 300mill the ave AUR cost price in isk will be higher than that.
Thus the VERY cheapest items you would be able to buy for AUR would be more than the value of some T1 Frigates. (atm everything is 1 AUR in the Vanity store but its the test server)

The RL $EUR cost per AUR will be $34.99/(2*3500) = just under 0.5cents ($0.005EUR)
So they could add 10cents to our bills and give us 20 AUR free every month.
however by making AUR only purchasable through plex means you have to by 2 plex or 7000 AUR at once, so its bulk buy or nothing.

Now from an in-game role-play perspective, a Rifter costs about 270k isk.

A Rifter is about the size of a 747-400 jumbo jet, which retail at about $260 Million USD (wiki 2007 price)

so assuming comparable real world costs the USD to ISK exchange rate is of the order of 1000:1.

This means that our characters (immortal pod pilots) which use an inter-galactic currency suited for their needs, would be paying out in the order of 86+ Million of whatever local currency the poor mortals down on the planets below use for currency, for a pair of pants or an eye patch.... and this ISN'T immersion breaking???????


^^

and DONT take away the current choice of free clothing ffs! Seriously, why force us to wear ONE set of clothing without having to spend gold. Keep the current VERY limited option.. and for all your talk before about "oh we will add to the clothing" to bad you forgot to tell us we have to pay for it.

I used to be VERY positive towards incarna. this really soured it for me.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:43:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG
.

Just to clarify - The lowest monthly average price for ISK was in February of 2010 with a value of roughly 265,000,000 ISK (265 million ISK). We are well aware of the potential, and I stress potential, impact on the market and are thus monitoring the situation closely. We do expect a lot of fluctuations while the market stabilizes based on information in this new devblog. But as you have seen today the market can adjust by itself very rapidly. Sell offers are currently at 404.7 million in Jita, down from a 450 million high earlier today. A typical market reaction when there are uncertainties with new information provided.


Just to clarify, I bought a plex 48 hours ago in Jita for 385M. So let's see......407/385 = 5.7% instant increase in prices. I grind ISK to play this game, because I cannot feed my personal cash into the game.

So what marketing guy or beancounter is "closely monitoring Plex prices", and what new PLEX price equilibrium does CCP want to establish? I need to know so I can decide if I can keep funding my 2 accounts through plex purchase or if I have to sell one of my chars and unsubscribe one of my accounts.

Oh yeah, just to clarify.....PLEX prices were 373M 30 days ago.

Pugzilla Black
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:44:00 - [394]
 

As a RL business owner and entrepreneur all I can say is WoW.

My EVE play style is that of an industrialist. I spend my game time producing stuff and selling it for a profit. As a rule I stick with producing low end goods that are in high demand. Stuff that folks are too lazy and/ or busy to produce. So now that a PLEX is heading toward 500 million ISK a pop, I'm thinking that my customer base is going to drop since they will be spending all their money on PLEX. What do I do now? Stop producing stuff and start buying PLEX for real money and selling it for ISK? What's fun about that? I may as well spend my time and money playing FOREX.

It's also laughable to think that CCP will only sell vanity items for this new currency. The temptation will be too great to not start selling uber weapons-o-death (aka "I win" guns). Ever seen those games in Facebook? For a few US Dollars you can go from Pee Wee Hermon to Fist of God within seconds.

At best, EVE will become Second Life in space where the there is only a very small number of people making money in game and everyone else using real money to buy pixel goodies. What would really be tragic is if EVE went the way of Star Wars Galaxies.

For now will continue to produce EVE commodities, but will sit on them until the trade hub markets stabilize.

Bloph
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:46:00 - [395]
 

Yay! Party at Jita 4-4. 500 Lindens on the board - best dressed winged costume gets it... No wait, that's the wrong game!

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:49:00 - [396]
 

I have to agree with a comment above: The idea that a suit of clothes will cost more than an interstellar spaceship seems way out of place.

Also in your wheel diagram, you need a second loop: An arrow going from "clothes" to "clothes placed on market", then arrows pointing to and from "clothes on market" and "ISK". And of course, an arrow going from $ to PLEX.

Questions for CCP: Will AUR be an item that can be put on the market or in contracts?

Any idea when us Mac users will get to play?


Chomin H'ak
Integrated Takeovers
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:52:00 - [397]
 

Honestly, the best thing to have done would have been to sell the Aurum, or wtfever, for RL currency and made them sell-able in-game for isk. That way it wouldn't be tied to plex or any exchange rate but its own. That way optional items for optional currency wouldn't violate the very real currency we ALL use.

Otherwise, you mess up the one market that counts.

Ifly Uwalk
Caldari
Concentrated Evil
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:52:00 - [398]
 

The long and short of this is, really, that nobody who regularly engages in pvp will be buying clothes of any kind because of the risk of losing them. This is especially true for the null-seccers where bubbles mean a much higher risk of getting podded. In other words, eventually most every pvper will be running around in their default orange jump suit.

Considering that most pvpers will also not run around in stations, where they might put on some clothes (because, well - no pvp in stations), the question I'm asking myself is - what's the point?

Sister Megarea
Sisters of Agony
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:53:00 - [399]
 

Originally by: Pugzilla Black
As a RL business owner and entrepreneur all I can say is WoW.

My EVE play style is that of an industrialist. I spend my game time producing stuff and selling it for a profit.


Immersion break #1: We can make star ships and planet-busting weapons, but we, somehow, don't have the ability to make a cotton T-Shirt ? I might suggest CCP to google for the famous MMO article "Let me bake bread" - Read it, learn it, live it.
Originally by: Pugzilla Black

It's also laughable to think that CCP will only sell vanity items for this new currency. The temptation will be too great to not start selling uber weapons-o-death (aka "I win" guns). Ever seen those games in Facebook? For a few US Dollars you can go from Pee Wee Hermon to Fist of God within seconds.



To be fair, I just can't see CCP doing this. Allowing a subscription game user to purchase uber-weapons is a death knell for any game (as you said: Witness Second Life). To date, CCP has been pretty darned awesome for keeping the experience a good one. In the recent annual customer survey, one of the questions was "Why do you play Eve Online?" - One of the answers I chose was "To live an alternate reality experience" (or something like that) - Telling me that I can build an Obelisk, a 940,000 metric ton freighter (and I have done just that - three times, now), but I can't make a pair of 2 ounce sunglasses because I can only buy them from the space-pixie gods with a magical currency called "Aurum" that falls from the sky when I input my credit card number ? Come on....

Silpher
Jita Trade Services
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:54:00 - [400]
 

Ok, it was The Fourth Alliance Tournament broadcast by the old Eve TV crew. They interviewed a developer or marketing individual from CCP who explicitly stated that CCP believed that the 15$ a month covered EVERYTHING. All inclusive. When did this go out the window? Why are you (CCP) turning your backs on the old philosophy that makes Eve great?

I am still very upset with this and am considering canceling my subscription as my entire last year of "playing" was out of love for a company that didn't do dumb **** like this.

Dr Larry Goldstein
Charybdis Laboratories
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:55:00 - [401]
 

How many Lindens can I trade for an Aur?

Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:58:00 - [402]
 

Edited by: Nova Fox on 27/05/2011 19:03:46
Why is it people think that 80% and both CSMs are against microtransactions of any sort? Im pertty sure it was microstransactions that give any tangible ADVANTAGE is what they where against. Such as buying a skill point booster or any other booster like quaf zero. Its more like 40% against incarana, so theyll use the microtransaction platform as another outlet of protest as well. And either way, there are plenty of people who pay for this game with the ingame money instead.

Aurum is a way for a plex to be spent at a store without wasting an entire plex into it. You wouldnt buy an entire monocle for 1 plex, but with aurum you can easily make one plex buy 100 monocles or 1 monocle and something else like cyborg arms to go with the outfit.

Now I've seen the arguments here about allowing players buy 'blueprints' this is unfourtuantly a 'tangible' advantage. Giving a rich player access to something a poor player wont. Although I am for letting players craft the items it also cuts back on ccps profits quite a bit once the blueprint demands have been fulfilled where as regular items can eventually be destroyed and demand has to be refilled. Either way I would love to see the system move to the blueprint system eventually espeically after the rest of the station opens up.

One thing I am concerned for is the price of plexes exploding, Aurum bought with real money would be a proper solution to prevent it happening in the first place.

Cheiftan
Minmatar
Shinryaku
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:00:00 - [403]
 

Im sorry CCP but im going to have to call Bull on this whole thing, i fully understand i can opt out and not do this but their are flaws to this.

1: you are ignoring your own lore, we get in pods naked
2: Why remove basic clothing and reduce it to one set?

And then this leads to a new question, if custom cloting is destroyed when podded, what about scars and tattoos.

EvE lore states that while some clones do not actualy use your DNA They are made to look like you, so one would presume they would add the scares hair and tattoos as part of the cloning costs we pay as capsuleers.


Please be clear and honest about your intent...

Maldus NiKunni
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:02:00 - [404]
 

how much do these guys get paid to come up with these ideas of new currancy just to give ccp more of our cash?
this is another dumb idea when we could just as well use isk for the purchase. where do I apply for this job....I could come up with many better ideas than this.....I have not bought plex and never will....it is just anothe cash scam

Silpher
Jita Trade Services
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:03:00 - [405]
 

No more threats, my accounts have been canceled. **** you, Blizzard.

Slajov Zizek
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:05:00 - [406]
 

Bobby Kotick is the most influential name is video games.

Sister Megarea
Sisters of Agony
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:05:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Nova Fox
Why is it people think that 80% and both CSMs are against microtransactions of any sort? Im pertty sure it was microstransactions that give any tangible ADVANTAGE is what they where against. Such as buying a skill point booster or any other booster like quaf zero. Its more like 40% against incarana, so theyll use the microtransaction platform as another outlet of protest as well. And either way, there are plenty of people who pay for this game with the ingame money instead.

Aurum is a way for a plex to be spent at a store without wasting an entire plex into it. You wouldnt buy an entire monocle for 1 plex, but with aurum you can easily make one plex buy 100 monocles or 1 monocle and something else like cyborg arms to go with the outfit.

One thing I am concerned for is the price of plexes exploding, Aurum bought with real money would be a proper solution to prevent it happening in the first place.


I don't think that most are against the micro-transactions as a general rule - Unless people are stupid, everyone knows that CCP is a business and one that (deservedly) makes money. What they're against is a micro-transaction model that will
  • Screw up the PLEX economy

  • Be so unrealistic so as the only reason it exists is to make money

Here's another solution, related to what you just said:
Make another currency that can ONLY be used for micro-transactions - Have that currency purchasable directly by CC, but do so in a realistic fashion (And their economist would have to weigh in on this) - For the sake of argument, $1USD = 1000 Aurum. But the ONLY thing you can use Aurum for is micro-transaction stuff like eye batches, t-shirts, etc.

For the record, having it destroyable only makes sense: Pilots may well be nude while they're in the pods, piloting, but you can't tell me that they don't have a liquid-proof case with their clothes in them so that when they dock in the next station, they can woo the ladies of any species with something other than their birthday suit. (And frankly, I'd rather not be sitting in the station, eating my astro-burger and space fries and have some dude come up with his pod-wet willy dangling three inches from my plate...)

Pugzilla Black
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:11:00 - [408]
 

Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG
Originally by: pmchem
Aurum is an elegant solution by CCP to two problems:
1. there are too many unredeemed PLEX in the universe (accountants complain)
2. there is too much stockpiled ISK (economist complains)

Making Aurum only available from PLEX directly addresses problem #1.

Problem #2 means that if new Incarna items were sold through fixed price NPC sell orders (think POS fuel before Tyrannis), the universe would quickly be flooded with them, devaluing Incarna. Selling them for fixed prices in Aurum means that the items' prices FLOAT in isk, since that exchange rate will vary with PLEX pricing. The greater the rush to buy Incarna items, the more expensive they become. So stockpiled isk has a lesser effect on Incarna items than it would otherwise.

The immediate side effect of making PLEX more expensive also means that buying isk via RMT is less competitive with buying isk legitimately via GTC sales. I'm sure this was a 'total accident', right CCP? :)

Well done.

Could we get a comment from CCP as to the Eve economist's thoughts on Aurum? It is a new currency, after all.


Having another currency for Incarna (Aurum (AUR)) helps a lot in terms of managing the overall money supply in EVE and simply gives us more tools to react to any imbalance situation that might come up over the years. More currencies are also simply just more fun and the fact that vanity items can be sold on the secondary market by players themselves opens up a lot of trading opportunities. Fun times ahead. Smile


What???

The announcement of this new currency has created an imbalance situation. Have you noticed the price of a PLEX? Houston, we have an imbalance situation.

Trading currencies is a job best left for folks like us with business degrees who have the time, skill and money to play FOREX. If I wanted that kind of stress I'd either get divorced all over again or better still play FOREX.

Fun times ahead... in Second Life Space edition. Too bad I don't want to play pixel dress up dollies with fat 40something year old housewives. I'd play Second Life if I wanted to to that.

Here's an idea. If you really want to get more MBAs to play EVE why not create a unique currency for each of the EVE races? Then have all business in Amarr space, for example, be conducted in the Ammar currency. That way we could have a currency exchange based on fake money rather than one based on real money. In null sec space there would be no official currency much like there is in some third world nations. Barter would be the way to go there. Trade in null sec would rely on the import of goods and function along the lines of X missiles and Y launchers in exchange for a ship.

Please contact me if you want some more ideas.

4N631
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:12:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: CCP Zinfandel
Originally by: Ruby Khann
So you're putting content behind a paywall, exactly like you said you wouldn't do.



If there is something you want, you can buy it in the marketplace for ISK or in the store for Aurum. I don't think it is behind as much of a wall as you think. But this will make more sense once you see it.

The difference is that the seller in the store is an NPC but the seller in the marketplace is another character.

Wrong! Very Happy
You can generate ISK in-game but you can't generate PLEX (that someone must buy for $) so you can't generate Aurum. That is why you introduce new currency.
You can hide, but we have eyes.

Glafri
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:16:00 - [410]
 

I want to fly spaceships not play dress up.

Fix all the goddamn issues and stop introducing faeces

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:20:00 - [411]
 

Edited by: Kyra Felann on 27/05/2011 19:21:15
I don't see this as a micro-transaction, at least not in the typical sense.

You can buy all this stuff through the market, the only difference is that it's introduced into the economy (indirectly) by real money.

So, not only do you need any of these vanity items, but if you want them, you can get them without spending real money. I don't see the problem here, but this forum is full of people who seem to just enjoy whining.

I Buy Aurum
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:23:00 - [412]
 

I for one do not see what all the fuss is about.
You were all warned.






Darin Ahan Parmana
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:28:00 - [413]
 

1) Good stuff!

2) Despite the "We'll keep an eye on it" comment, I am genuinely worried about PLEX prices. I fear I may run into trouble, given I'm on a very fixed income due to health reasons and I'm able to afford EVE by buying PLEXes.

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:30:00 - [414]
 

Furthering my previous post, I've had some more musings on the subject of the mentality of EvE players.

EvE was and still is, a niche game, one where ship loss and player death actually has tangible loss in-game. It's rather different from the vast majority of MMO's (and games in a general) where death means little. It's also one of the reasons why PvP is awesome. As such, it requires and attracts players with certain mentalities.

I think there's been a serious error made by CCP's researchers with regards to the type of player who wants optional Microtransactions. It's one thing having a tangible loss of in-game assets, it's completely another when RL money is included in part of that loss.

If CCP have pushed the new money and the Microtransaction system on the basis that it will get new players into the game and keep them, along with giving CCP a nice little earner on the side from more PLEX purchases, I think they've made a large mistake.

I can forsee two outcomes with attracting new players who're lured by vanity items:

1) They sign up, buy vanity items, then ragequit when they die and lose what they've spent RL money on. Net result: No new long term subscriptions and no long term use of the MT system.

2) They sign up, buy vanity items, lose them, don't ragequit but keep playing. However as they've been burnt and learnt one of Eve's most basic rules (don't fly what you can't afford to lose), they simply won't use the MT system like the majority of the playerbase. Result: Increased subscribers, but no correlating long term uptake and use of the MT system.

I don't mind being proven wrong, but due to the nature of Eve, I really don't think it's going to work how CCP want it to.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:30:00 - [415]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Losing clothes on pod destruction seems rather silly from the lore perspective, or are you abandoning the fluidic pod concept entirely?

They're adding an overhead compartment.

I argued strongly that clothes should be non-destructible (ie: you buy the right to have the nanobots in the closet manufacture it, or the clone bay install it in the case of body mods).

My reasoning was:

1) It'll be a royal pain in the ass to rebuy your outfit every time you get podded, so players who are prone to being podded (ie: pvp'ers) will tend not to buy the special clothes -- constantly worrying about whether or not you're undocking while wearing your Pimp Hat is a problem we just don't need to have.

2) You can realistically charge more for non-destructible items.

So you sell more to the people whose clothes would get blown up, and get more from the ones who wouldn't need to rebuy.

This thinking was heavily influenced by the disgusting spectacle of both Seleene and Mittens openly drooling over some sample items -- I had the misfortune of being between the two of them.

PS: At one of the dinners, I also suggested some hugely expensive vanity items, the cheapest of which was "1 year naming rights to the Jita 4-4 station"

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:33:00 - [416]
 

Originally by: CCP Zulu

So we're left with the question of how to give you the customizability and uniqueness you want without simply raising the subscription rate.



Ohh boy. How terribly nice of you. There I was sitting thinking this is another way of raising revenue for ccp but it really is all about altruism.

I don't have a problem with this feature per se (I don't care about it really) but that spin is a bit on the far fetched side.

cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:34:00 - [417]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Losing clothes on pod destruction seems rather silly from the lore perspective, or are you abandoning the fluidic pod concept entirely?

They're adding an overhead compartment.

I argued strongly that clothes should be non-destructible (ie: you buy the right to have the nanobots in the closet manufacture it, or the clone bay install it in the case of body mods).

My reasoning was:

1) It'll be a royal pain in the ass to rebuy your outfit every time you get podded, so players who are prone to being podded (ie: pvp'ers) will tend not to buy the special clothes -- constantly worrying about whether or not you're undocking while wearing your Pimp Hat is a problem we just don't need to have.

2) You can realistically charge more for non-destructible items.

So you sell more to the people whose clothes would get blown up, and get more from the ones who wouldn't need to rebuy.

This thinking was heavily influenced by the disgusting spectacle of both Seleene and Mittens openly drooling over some sample items -- I had the misfortune of being between the two of them.

PS: At one of the dinners, I also suggested some hugely expensive vanity items, the cheapest of which was "1 year naming rights to the Jita 4-4 station"


lol.

I thought you were trolling, but you're actually serious.
Are you smoking crack?




Azurun Li
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:34:00 - [418]
 

Edited by: Azurun Li on 27/05/2011 19:43:37
Hey Devs & CCP Marketing guys,

Have you ever considered the possibility of using the Kickstarter/ransom method of raising money for vanity gear?

I'm imagining a system that might go something like this -
1. Artsts' sketches of potential new clothing lines are displayed on a website, next to a monetary goal.
2. Donations of cash or PLEX are held in escrow until the goal has been reached or a deadline passes.
3. If the goal is reached, the new clothing is released into the Eve universe for no additional real-world cost. Players may then create/sell/trade that item to their heart's content.
4. If the goal is not reached before the deadline, cash and PLEX are refunded to the contributors and the vanity items are removed from the drawing board.

Pros:
1. Only the vanity items that folks really want end up taking any space in the game.
2. Players get to add "Space Cobbler" to the list of in-game professions.
3. You can deflect all accusations of "This isn't the kind of SciFi cape I wanted!" onto the players, as it's their money that votes for which vanity items make it into the game.

Cons:
1. You remain branded as money-grubbing capitalists because you won't give us the game, all the expansions, all the fixes, and every single vanity item we want for free.

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:36:00 - [419]
 

Originally by: Sister Megarea
For the record, having it destroyable only makes sense: Pilots may well be nude while they're in the pods, piloting, but you can't tell me that they don't have a liquid-proof case with their clothes in them so that when they dock in the next station, they can woo the ladies of any species with something other than their birthday suit. (And frankly, I'd rather not be sitting in the station, eating my astro-burger and space fries and have some dude come up with his pod-wet willy dangling three inches from my plate...)


I just have to say i spewed my ice tea all over and laughed at that. :)

Shintai
Gallente
Arx Io Orbital Factories
Arx Io
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:40:00 - [420]
 

Microtransactions....

Im starting to wonder if I should continue to play EvE.


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