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Sirinda
Posted - 2011.05.27 17:59:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Akita T
They don't have REST mass, but they have impulse, so they sort of almost behave as if they had mass in collisions.


I admit I have trouble wrapping my mind around a massless particle, whereas according to Einstein's "E = m * c^2" formula, it should have some mass, since "m = 0" would mean that "E = 0". And a laser that emits zero energy would be pretty moot.

Then again, I'm a chemist. Make me kill people with blister/nerve/lung/blood agent instead. >.<

Kate Rygel
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:16:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Sirinda
Originally by: Akita T
They don't have REST mass, but they have impulse, so they sort of almost behave as if they had mass in collisions.


I admit I have trouble wrapping my mind around a massless particle, whereas according to Einstein's "E = m * c^2" formula, it should have some mass, since "m = 0" would mean that "E = 0". And a laser that emits zero energy would be pretty moot.

Then again, I'm a chemist. Make me kill people with blister/nerve/lung/blood agent instead. >.<


The laser beam doesn't need to have the mass. The mass in the E=MC^2 equation would exist at the source where the energy is created (i.e. the laser gun). The beam itself is just projecting that energy onto the destination (i.e. your target)

Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:24:00 - [123]
 

Edited by: Mister Smithington on 27/05/2011 18:29:53
Originally by: Sirinda
Originally by: Akita T
They don't have REST mass, but they have impulse, so they sort of almost behave as if they had mass in collisions.


I admit I have trouble wrapping my mind around a massless particle, whereas according to Einstein's "E = m * c^2" formula, it should have some mass, since "m = 0" would mean that "E = 0". And a laser that emits zero energy would be pretty moot.

Then again, I'm a chemist. Make me kill people with blister/nerve/lung/blood agent instead. >.<

There's so much bad science in this thread, I may as well throw my hat into the ring.

Electromagnetic radiation, aka light, has both particle and wave properties. "Photon" is the word used to describe the particle aspects. It's still electromagnetic radiation and it still has 0 mass.

e=mc^2 is the formula to convert matter to energy and vice versa. That forumla will tell you how much energy would be released if you were to convert a kilogram of matter into energy (say, by colliding it with a kilogram of antimatter). Or, how much matter you would end up with if you congealed a joule of energy into matter.

Originally by: Kate Rygel
The laser beam doesn't need to have the mass. The mass in the E=MC^2 equation would exist at the source where the energy is created (i.e. the laser gun). The beam itself is just projecting that energy onto the destination (i.e. your target)


Let's be clear here, you're not breaking down the matter of the laser turret to release energy. The energy comes from the electricity that you pour into the gas chamber of the laser to excite the molecules into releasing photons. In other words, we're not creating energy here. Depending on how a ships capacitor works, we're converting potentially nuclear energy (maybe even chemical energy if we're running a cap booster) into electrical energy and then into electromagnetic radiation, suffering energy loss to heat due to efficiency issues at every stage.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:25:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 27/05/2011 18:28:00
Originally by: Sirinda
Originally by: Akita T
They don't have REST mass, but they have impulse, so they sort of almost behave as if they had mass in collisions.

I admit I have trouble wrapping my mind around a massless particle, whereas according to Einstein's "E = m * c^2" formula, it should have some mass, since "m = 0" would mean that "E = 0". And a laser that emits zero energy would be pretty moot.
Then again, I'm a chemist. Make me kill people with blister/nerve/lung/blood agent instead. >.<

Mass increases with speed, but you only see a noticeable increase as you approach the speed of light.
A single electron accelerated to exactly the speed of light would theoretically have INFINITE mass Twisted Evil
Then again, you can never accelerate anything to the speed of light, as it would also require an infinite amount of thrust (or energy, or whatever).
Matter can't move at the speed of light, photons can't move at anything but the speed of light (in the medium they're moving through).

Photons "sort of" have mass, but only when moving at the speed of light, and their "equivalent mass" depends on their frequency (or, if you prefer, energy).
If you try to decelerate a photon, it STILL moves at the speed of light, but it will have a lower frequency, and therefore lower energy.
If you try to decelerate it below the speed of light, it ceases to exist, it has a "zero REST mass".

P.S. Obviously, the above is an oversimplification. In reality, things are far, far more complicated than that.

Sirinda
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:42:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 27/05/2011 18:28:00
Originally by: Sirinda
Originally by: Akita T
They don't have REST mass, but they have impulse, so they sort of almost behave as if they had mass in collisions.

I admit I have trouble wrapping my mind around a massless particle, whereas according to Einstein's "E = m * c^2" formula, it should have some mass, since "m = 0" would mean that "E = 0". And a laser that emits zero energy would be pretty moot.
Then again, I'm a chemist. Make me kill people with blister/nerve/lung/blood agent instead. >.<

Mass increases with speed, but you only see a noticeable increase as you approach the speed of light.
A single electron accelerated to exactly the speed of light would theoretically have INFINITE mass Twisted Evil
Then again, you can never accelerate anything to the speed of light, as it would also require an infinite amount of thrust (or energy, or whatever).
Matter can't move at the speed of light, photons can't move at anything but the speed of light (in the medium they're moving through).

Photons "sort of" have mass, but only when moving at the speed of light, and their "equivalent mass" depends on their frequency (or, if you prefer, energy).
If you try to decelerate a photon, it STILL moves at the speed of light, but it will have a lower frequency, and therefore lower energy.
If you try to decelerate it below the speed of light, it ceases to exist, it has a "zero REST mass".

P.S. Obviously, the above is an oversimplification. In reality, things are far, far more complicated than that.



Argh. Kill me now, before my brain liquifies. THAT's why I avoid physics like the plague.

Kate Rygel
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:59:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Mister Smithington
Edited by: Mister Smithington on 27/05/2011 18:29:53
Originally by: Sirinda
Originally by: Akita T
They don't have REST mass, but they have impulse, so they sort of almost behave as if they had mass in collisions.


I admit I have trouble wrapping my mind around a massless particle, whereas according to Einstein's "E = m * c^2" formula, it should have some mass, since "m = 0" would mean that "E = 0". And a laser that emits zero energy would be pretty moot.

Then again, I'm a chemist. Make me kill people with blister/nerve/lung/blood agent instead. >.<

...
Originally by: Kate Rygel
The laser beam doesn't need to have the mass. The mass in the E=MC^2 equation would exist at the source where the energy is created (i.e. the laser gun). The beam itself is just projecting that energy onto the destination (i.e. your target)


Let's be clear here, you're not breaking down the matter of the laser turret to release energy. The energy comes from the electricity that you pour into the gas chamber of the laser to excite the molecules into releasing photons. In other words, we're not creating energy here. Depending on how a ships capacitor works, we're converting potentially nuclear energy (maybe even chemical energy if we're running a cap booster) into electrical energy and then into electromagnetic radiation, suffering energy loss to heat due to efficiency issues at every stage.


I wasn't refering to the the mass of the gun itself, but the fuel used in the gun to produce the laser beam, or the fuel used to produce the electricity used in the gun if you prefer. I was just oversimplified the explanation I guess. My point was supposed to be what you explained more clearly, the laser beam is just radiation projecting the energy through 'space' (quoted because space in EVE isn't actually an empty void).

And, to be clear, you NEVER actually create energy. You simply convert it from one form to another, wether that form is mass or just a different state of energy (i.e. eletrical, heat, kinetic, etc...)

NinjaSpud
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:22:00 - [127]
 

*reads entire thread from front to back*

......


..........

*Head explodes*

Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:30:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: NinjaSpud
*reads entire thread from front to back*

......


..........

*Head explodes*

tl;dr version

Cross train amarr. The new lasers are awesome, and the new maller is going to be the top dog of station spinning.

Minsc
Gallente
Alpha Empire
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:53:00 - [129]
 

Did anyone else notice how the ends of the laser turret barrels glow red-hot after it fires for a split second?

Captain Mung
Posted - 2011.05.27 20:11:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Mister Smithington
Originally by: NinjaSpud
*reads entire thread from front to back*

......


..........

*Head explodes*

tl;dr version

Cross train amarr. The new lasers are awesome, and the new maller is going to be the top dog of station spinning.


I have to say the new Maller and the skins of its variants look really good. CCP actually did a good job on that one *is surprised*.

Ripley Nostromo
Posted - 2011.05.27 21:21:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Calathea Sata
I agree with OP, laser turrets shouldn't have any recoil simply because they shouldn't. I guess common sense isn't a requirement when CCP hires people.

Yeah, my company had no common sense when they hire me either...

Skinny Vickers
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.27 21:34:00 - [132]
 

wooo!! this is confusing Embarassed

So to save my brain from melt down I've decided that the lasers don't actually recoil in the traditional sense but the action we see is a result of a forced gas active cooling system.
In my world...some special hi tech magic happens and some mysterious cooling 'Gas" is forced around the optics and other hot parts to keep my lazorzz firing.

Now wasn't that simpler?
Laughing

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.05.27 21:36:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Skinny Vickers
So to save my brain from melt down I've decided that the lasers don't actually recoil in the traditional sense but the action we see is a result of a forced gas active cooling system.
Wouldn't it be simpler to say that the lasers do recoil in the traditional sense… because… you know, they actually do?
Quote:
Now wasn't that simpler?
Not really. Razz

Skinny Vickers
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.27 21:40:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Skinny Vickers
So to save my brain from melt down I've decided that the lasers don't actually recoil in the traditional sense but the action we see is a result of a forced gas active cooling system.
Wouldn't it be simpler to say that the lasers do recoil in the traditional sense… because… you know, they actually do?
Quote:
Now wasn't that simpler?
Not really. Razz


you're just saying that for comedy value...I know you understand and like it...

Don't play hard to get...Wink

Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.27 21:50:00 - [135]
 

Do you even know what a laser IS, little dog?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.27 21:52:00 - [136]
 

Let's put it this way : if you could ACTUALLY fire scenery-slicing laser beams out of your eyes, you'd better brace yourself, because you're going to experience one hell of a kickback.

Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.05.27 21:52:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Mister Smithington on 27/05/2011 22:16:45
Originally by: Ayieka
Do you even know what a laser IS, little dog?

A pile of ugly meat, veins of tangy mayonnaise, and stretched around it is a layer of sweaty pinkish cheese?

Kale Anderson
Posted - 2011.05.27 22:15:00 - [138]
 

thats what the profs eat.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.05.27 22:45:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Shiera Kuni

So you're telling me that you believe a metal slug travelling along a magnetic rail track, not creating a backblow as standard cased ammo does, would cause recoil? The only way I can see it causing recoil is if it produced enough shock after leaving the barrel to push it back. Now of course, I'm thinking of current applications and not suspended plasma as it is in EVE. You're correct in that aspect at least, the suspended plasma charges -could- be producing recoil from gas ventilation.


no the magnetic force acting on the 'slug' is ALSO acting on the rails. the rails experience a force equal and opposite to the one acting on the projectile.
however as the rails are much bigger/heavier than the projectile and hopefully also anchored to something big and heavy its the projectile that goes shooting off and the rail gun stays where it is. if that wasn't the case you could attach the projectile to the back of the gun with a piece of string, and create a reaction-less drive system.

Monstress
Posted - 2011.05.27 22:52:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Mister Smithington

tl;dr version

Cross train amarr. The new lasers are awesome, and the new maller is going to be the top dog of station spinning.


Already working on it!

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.05.27 22:55:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Shiera Kuni
Originally by: NinjaSpud
You're correct, newton states that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You're only mistake is the word "recoil"

Recoil from a gun is caused by the explosion of the powder, not the bullet traveling along the barrel. Guns still kick when there's a blank inside. When it detonates, the energy from the explosion needs an exit, it finds the path of least resistance and exits out the barrel, pushing the bullet along with it.

Again, with the equal and opposite reaction thing, you get a massive force leaving out the end of the barrel -----> and as a result, it pushes the bullet but also propels the gun in the opposite direction <-----

The amount of energy lost when you fire a bullet is staggering.

Railguns on the other hand, have no explosion, therefore have no recoil. I'm not saying they don't produce kinetic energy, but I am saying that the kinetic energy is conserved in the projectile until impact. The result is the projectile has way more kinetic energy, more because the energy is conserved, or focused in the projectile and does not release until impact.


True story here, my uncle was in the army in the late 80's. he had top secret clearance (computer nerd for spec ops) and one day, they went to a 'new weapons demo'. the army was testing one of its first rail guns.

They took an aluminum casing (non magnetic material) about 500MM. If I remember, that's the size of a football...American not European. In the very center of that casing, was a single steel BB (magnetic material), the same kind you shot birds with as a child.

The loaded this casing into a rail gun, and shot it at an old tank, 5 miles away. He said the gun didn't make a single noise or movement. the only noise they heard was the 500MM casing breaking the sound barrier.

when they inspected the tank, it had a perfect football sized hole clean threw it.

kewl **** eh?



Thank you! I knew I wasn't crazy.


Originally by: Ghoest
Your lack of perception or vision has no bearing on physics.


I'm currently searching my braille keyboard for an appropriate retort.



no your not crazy... you're just both wrong.

if the railgun in your story is real, then the reason it apparently made no sound was because it was big heavy and locked to the ground while firing a very light projectile, which went supersonic... which is VERY loud, drowning out the lesser sound of the gun vibrating, and the shock propagating through the ground.
It wasn't because railguns don't have recoil because that would break the laws of physics.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.05.27 23:03:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Soden Rah on 27/05/2011 23:15:03
Originally by: Akita T
They don't have REST mass, but they have impulse, so they sort of almost behave as if they had mass in collisions.


Its the whole E=MC2 thing. mass and energy are equivalent and interchangeable.
Photons don't have mass, but they do have energy, and thus have momentum.

EDIT: probably should say more than that.


Energy and mass are different forms of the same thing, and they both bend space, creating what we call gravity. Thus if you get hotter you weigh more as you have extra energy and that energy has weight, not mass but weight.
Photons have no mass but do have energy, so they bend space, and follow the curvature of space, and have momentum.

Calathea Sata
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.05.27 23:12:00 - [143]
 

*Reads the thread again*

This is why I love the EVE community.

Morgan Polaris
Posted - 2011.05.27 23:43:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
no the magnetic force acting on the 'slug' is ALSO acting on the rails. the rails experience a force equal and opposite to the one acting on the projectile.
however as the rails are much bigger/heavier than the projectile and hopefully also anchored to something big and heavy its the projectile that goes shooting off and the rail gun stays where it is. if that wasn't the case you could attach the projectile to the back of the gun with a piece of string, and create a reaction-less drive system.


Exactly, it's not really a question of whether there's an opposite force reaction. It's just uncertain on where this force is primarily exerted; either directly on the back of the gun or along the rails. And there's also the rails trying to push each other apart, and a minor issue of massive heat by friction and arc electricity.

Cpt Arareb
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.27 23:50:00 - [145]
 

when I saw the new turrets (boner on) I then saw the laser turrets (still with a boner) then I saw the recoil in the laser turrets (boner off and in need of reanimation) NeutralEmbarassed

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.27 23:56:00 - [146]
 

Originally by: Cpt Arareb
then I saw the recoil in the laser turrets (boner off and in need of reanimation)

You might want to read the thread to see why it might very well be JUSTIFIED.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.05.28 00:01:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: Soden Rah on 28/05/2011 00:05:12
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Cpt Arareb
then I saw the recoil in the laser turrets (boner off and in need of reanimation)

You might want to read the thread to see why it might very well be JUSTIFIED.


or just take some prosac and carry on ;-p

I don't care if they are justified (well I do but not for that reason).
Recoil looks cool.

EDIT:
Although I looked at the new mauler model on duality... its very sexy, but zoomed in to max you can see that the new turrets are all shiny and detailed and unpixilated, and the surface of the mauler is, jagged and pixilated. which looks odd next to the turrets still in perfect detail.

Cpt Arareb
Amarr
Posted - 2011.05.28 00:31:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Cpt Arareb
then I saw the recoil in the laser turrets (boner off and in need of reanimation)

You might want to read the thread to see why it might very well be JUSTIFIED.


So you know I read it, yet even with all that "facts" I cant bring him back upSad

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.05.28 00:34:00 - [149]
 

*reads thread*

and you guys wonder why girls don't want to come anywhere near this game.

LaughingLaughingLaughing

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.05.28 00:37:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Soden Rah on 28/05/2011 00:38:15
Originally by: MotherMoon
*reads thread*

and you guys wonder why girls don't want to come anywhere near this game.

LaughingLaughingLaughing


you implying girls, can't understand physics? Cool

so we nerded out a little, who doesn't now and then? ;-p


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