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blankseplocked So...the new lasers have recoil?
 
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
Posted - 2011.05.27 04:38:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Calathea Sata
I agree with OP, laser turrets shouldn't have any recoil simply because they shouldn't. I guess common sense isn't a requirement when CCP hires people.

Realism was never strong in EVE. It gives more artistic freedom though.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.27 04:55:00 - [32]
 

Eve lasers appear to recoil because of the long duration time of the beam(s). In order to focus as much energy as possible on a single spot on the target, the guns are gyrostabilized or otherwise on a gimble type mount, thus giving the appearance of recoil.

Eve lasers have recoil because the beam is traveling faster than the speed of light and the photons have gained significant mass. (Eve turret weapons hit instantly, and "instantly" is faster than the speed of light.)

The guns aren't experiencing recoil. The guns become stationary after firing to stabilize the micro-warp tunnel that the laser beams travels through. (Eve lasers/weapons can shoot through solid objects because they fire along a warp tunnel in much the same manner that a ship flies through a planet while warping. Eve lasers are also limited to a paltry few hundred kilometers due to limitations on this micro-warp tunnel.)

The fact that you can see lasers in a vacuum implies that the lasers are traveling through some kind of medium. The recoil is caused by this medium causing the lasers to move at slower than light speed which magically imparts mass on the lasers.


Oh, the hell with this. My elf casts magic missile at your ship.



suki cox
Posted - 2011.05.27 05:04:00 - [33]
 

Its very simple, the new turrets have an inbuilt ship scanner which activates when shooting, then recoils in disgust when it discovers your fit.

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

Ashterothi
Posted - 2011.05.27 05:05:00 - [34]
 

Lasers "Recoil" because they heat up very quickly and thus the stabilization tube must slide away to allow the heat to vent fast enough into space.


.... It's all I got sorry.

Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.27 05:24:00 - [35]
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-electron_laser

Just because it is LAZOR doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't have any kinetic effect.

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.27 05:29:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Lost Greybeard on 27/05/2011 05:32:10
Originally by: Calathea Sata
I agree with OP, laser turrets shouldn't have any recoil simply because they shouldn't. I guess common sense isn't a requirement when CCP hires people.


Depends on your energy load. Despite not having mass, photons do have momentum (hbar*k, i.e. h/wavelength). 500nm is around what the average of the spectrum is (assuming it falls into the visible), so that's 1.32 e-27 N/photon.

Number of photons can likewise be derived from energy consumption. Grabbing a random laser i see a cost of 4.76 e9 J, again assuming 500nm the energy per photon is 3.97 e-19 J/photon. So something on the order of 1.2e28 photons emitted. Given their momentum individually, conservation principles state that a force of about 10N will be exerted on your laser turret in the opposite direction.

This of course assumes optimum efficiency, but still, if the parts of the laser are some ultra-light future material that's a non-trivial quantity of force. So even ignoring the "it's probably a mechanical reset rather than real recoil" aspect, a recoil animation could theoretically be justified.

//Sorry if my arithmetic is off. It's late.

(EDIT: oh, ****, I think I just out-nerded a forum thread about internet spaceships. I mean "hurr, durr, laser no recoil, what mean ug by 'momentum'?")

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.05.27 05:31:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 27/05/2011 06:22:17
Let me just repeat that: lasers do have recoil.

The only fancy explanation required is why it would be so large as to be noticeable and why the turrets would have to soak it up, but that's largely a function of how much energy you're pouring out of them.

<hoping I remember the maths>
Let's take the Tachyon II, for instance — it uses up 95GJ per shot (and just for the sake of it, we're going to assume that it's running at 100% efficiency). This means we have a total momentum of 316.9 Ns, and since it looks like they fire over one second, we get an equal amount of impulse.

…granted, as a point of comparison a 1400mm should have an impulse of ~2,500,000 Ns or so.
</hoping I remember the maths>

Lost Greybeard
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.27 05:35:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Shiera Kuni
Actually, if you think about it any magnetic delivery system *I.E. Railguns* wouldn't have recoil either. There are no moving parts save for the ammunition.

nb4flame: I've actually been working on several railgun designs in the past couple of months.


OK, the people who are forgetting that light has momentum despite not having mass is forgivable, but what's your excuse for not understanding that a physical object being accelerated by a magnetic force has momentum?

DarkJacena
Posted - 2011.05.27 05:40:00 - [39]
 

The steam venting from all the heat buildup causes the recoil in the chamber you see.

And.. it.. looks.. ..AWESOME!! =)

Seriously folks, not much imagination needed for such an explanation. This is a welcome addition, can't wait for other ships to get the nice treatment =)


-Jace

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.05.27 05:48:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Jada Maroo on 27/05/2011 05:50:31

First, looks fantastic. Very Happy

Second, I don't even think the barrels are recoiling. I think what you're seeing is an optical illusion created by the expansion of a light flare.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.27 06:12:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Let me just repeat that: lasers do have recoil.

The only fancy explanation required is why it would be so large as to be noticeable and why the turrets would have to soak it up, but that's largely a function of how much energy you're pouring out of them.

Recoil on a mounted turret (like on a ship) is only needed if the mechanical construction couldnt handle the forced without having space for recoil. Looking simply at the momentum of photons it is so freaking small there would be no need to have the turrets recoil if a similar construction (with recoil) can handle the enormous forces of other turrets.
Of course the momentum from your laser turret will then still give an opposite momentum to your ship, but that is also if you have recoil, the only difference is that recoil spreads it out a bit, which isnt required with the very small momentum generated by a laser turret, combined with that especially beam lasers already do spread it out in time.

Mister Smithington
Posted - 2011.05.27 06:13:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Jada Maroo
Edited by: Jada Maroo on 27/05/2011 05:50:31

First, looks fantastic. Very Happy

Second, I don't even think the barrels are recoiling. I think what you're seeing is an optical illusion created by the expansion of a light flare.

No, they're definitely recoiling.

Here's an attempt at an explanation:
When the Amarrian engineers were designing the laser systems for their ships, they realized they would look so much cooler with a "recoil" effect. So they built them with a mechanism that pulls the barrel back to make it look like it's recoiling. Because, I mean, God damn! Look at it. It's awesome.

Marshiro
Posted - 2011.05.27 06:55:00 - [43]
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure

Also, obviously lasers don't shoot only a few GJ when nuclear weapons are being tosses around all over the place. With enough energy you can indeed get lasers to recoil.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.05.27 07:11:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Mister Smithington
When the Amarrian engineers were designing the laser systems for their ships, they realized they would look so much cooler with a "recoil" effect. So they built them with a mechanism that pulls the barrel back to make it look like it's recoiling. Because, I mean, God damn! Look at it. It's awesome.


+1

Or... "Minmatar ships always looked so cool due to muzzle flash and recoil, so the Amarr engineers implemented the same thing in order to provide their ships with the extra psychological warfare potential of sheer awesome"

CCP Spitfire


C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.27 07:39:00 - [45]
 

Good question, actually. I'll check with the storyline team and get back to you; meanwhile a quick search (but please do not take it as an "official" answer) suggests that sci-fi laser weapons may indeed have recoil according to the conventional laws of physics.


Paukinra
Gallente
Hard Rock Mining Co.
Posted - 2011.05.27 07:42:00 - [46]
 

Photons has mass so will show recoil in large neough energy.

The other question this begs is why can I see the laser beam?

If the photons are moving away from me and there is no particles in the way (aka in space) then I wouldnt see them as there is nothing for them to reflect of off. I might/would see the ship Im shooting at light up or occasional little bits of light from scraps of metal of particles from the ships but I wouldn't see the whole laser fully.

Again, something put in to look cool rainbow Abbadons FTW :P

flank steak
Caldari
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2011.05.27 07:57:00 - [47]
 

If you watched that video and said "WTF Recoil?" instead of just sitting there going Surprised ..

I feel bad for you

Tish Magev
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:02:00 - [48]
 

Quote:
Photons has mass


Wrong, photons have zero mass if they had mass they wouldn't travel at the speed of light.

It can have relativistic mass as it has energy but a massless object can't, or at least shouldn't, cause recoil.

Stop treating photons like particles, they aren't true particles they are quantums.

Jacob Holland
Gallente
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:02:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Shiera Kuni
Actually, if you think about it any magnetic delivery system *I.E. Railguns* wouldn't have recoil either. There are no moving parts save for the ammunition.


That isn't why things recoil.

A cannon has no moving parts either. The recoil is the reaction force from the moving projectile, if you push a mass forward at high energies then it pushes back.

Lasers recoiling are another matter as the photons emitted have negligible mass (although a photon gun is a potential drive system for spacecraft) but I'm trying to imagine what the turrets would look like if they didn't (when everything else did) and I don't think they'd look right (nothing to do with the science or the so-called common sense) they'd look like they weren't working properly.

Ordais
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:03:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Ordais on 27/05/2011 08:03:26
i see no recoil in that video....

its just a flair because the crystals are overheating (there is an afterglow aswell). The guns don't move at all.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:07:00 - [51]
 

I wonder what we will be experts of tomorrow Laughing I always wanted to cure cancer.

/c

Yumar Almasy
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:11:00 - [52]
 

Are you people blind?!

There is absolutely no recoil in that video. It looks like the laser is overheating/flaring for some reason, and simply lighting up the lower half. It might give the illusion of recoil, but it definitely is not.

Put the resolution to 1080, and put your face right up to it if you still aren't sure.

Mahashou
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:16:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Yumar Almasy
Are you people blind?!

There is absolutely no recoil in that video. It looks like the laser is overheating/flaring for some reason, and simply lighting up the lower half. It might give the illusion of recoil, but it definitely is not.

Put the resolution to 1080, and put your face right up to it if you still aren't sure.


+1 Shocked

Ben Morto
The Hatchery
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:21:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Yumar Almasy
Are you people blind?!

There is absolutely no recoil in that video. It looks like the laser is overheating/flaring for some reason, and simply lighting up the lower half. It might give the illusion of recoil, but it definitely is not.

Put the resolution to 1080, and put your face right up to it if you still aren't sure.


This.

Can we go back to arguing about why turrets make noise in space?

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:27:00 - [55]
 

Quote:
The other question this begs is why can I see the laser beam?

Your pod adds that for your experience, same as sound. (Yes it could also be used to explain recoil, but why would it add that).

Originally by: CCP Spitfire
Good question, actually. I'll check with the storyline team and get back to you; meanwhile a quick search (but please do not take it as an "official" answer) suggests that sci-fi laser weapons may indeed have recoil according to the conventional laws of physics.



Minus that there a pulse time on a nanosecond scale is used, beam lasers have pulses of several seconds, so you can divide that by about a billion.


Yes photons kick back when you shoot them, no that will not cause recoil since it is negligble compared to the kick of projectile or hybrid weapons.

Paukinra
Gallente
Hard Rock Mining Co.
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:28:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Tish Magev
Quote:
Photons has mass


Wrong, photons have zero mass if they had mass they wouldn't travel at the speed of light.

It can have relativistic mass as it has energy but a massless object can't, or at least shouldn't, cause recoil.

Stop treating photons like particles, they aren't true particles they are quantums.



Sorry, I didnt write that clearly.

They have no rest mass, when accelerated they do have mass.

ANd anyway there is no proof they dont have mass (although I do agree it is unlikly they do)

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.05.27 08:49:00 - [57]
 

ummm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wks4k5I0098


need I say more?

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.05.27 09:06:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Calathea Sata
I agree with OP, laser turrets shouldn't have any recoil simply because they shouldn't. I guess common sense isn't a requirement when CCP hires people.

Because it's common to moonlight as an armchair scientist.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.05.27 09:08:00 - [59]
 

Star trek fans forever like to do trek vs threads to bask in their glory. The biggest argument is lasers don't hurt picards giant dinnerplate ship yayayaya. Lasers that have recoil puts a spanner in the works because they are not normal lasersTwisted Evil

Test Build
Posted - 2011.05.27 09:09:00 - [60]
 

Oh please...all of the heavy turrets on the Imperial DeathStar had recoil, the guns on the Millenium Falcon had recoil.

Clearly Sir, you know nothing about fantasy lasers and how they oprate.


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