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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.05.31 09:19:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Domitianus Fury
Originally by: Lyn Farel

Am I wrong ?


Yes


Your answer is irrelevant without any explanation or counter-argument.

Originally by: Nor Tzestu

I recognize the broad strokes of racism for what it is. A weak argument that usually invokes un-named sources, indefensible statistics or even better the fictional stories provided by word of mouth. A reasonable person would assume the students and faculty at the only privately run Amarrian seminary school in New Eden are not "average" when it comes to Amarrian theology, Amarrian culture or Amarrian politics. I wonder if you would question the ability of Caldari industry instructors at their academy. Or Gallente civics instructors at their respective institutions. I remain dubious to the "concern" you attempt to convey in your questions. I shall pray for you child. Your anger and hatred has blinded you not only to a noble cause but to common sense as well.


Please pardon me but I have difficulties to see why you are mentionning broad strokes of racism and hatred, anger. I find this statement even more strange when we consider that I have always been a full supporter of the CVA over the years.

You sound like a confused minion not even trying to argue but to blindly defend with clunky arguments what he has been told. Why clunky ? Firstly, instructors are not infaillible, for that you would have actually noticed in the Scriptures the part about God's perfection vs human unperfection and flaws. Secondly, students are neither. You can still be a very good teacher and speak to a deaf ear, when your student is nothing else but crass ignorance, indeed.



Originally by: Kahar Dex
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Knowing that a lot of amarrian originated individuals are blatant proofs of ignorance and crass idiocy (like in any society), and that some foreigners can show a lot more insight in amarrian theology (for various reasons, acumen, knowledge, wisdom, etc), I am not sure if positioning foreigners systematically under amarrian originated students is a wise choice, or just a way to express that the Amarr bloodline is superior.

Am I wrong ?


If this statement is made generally, then I can say that indeed there may be merit to the contention.

However, if this is made in regards to the CVA Clergy, then I would say that the statement does not take into consideration the amount of scrutiny each applicant is put through before being accepted into the program. "Blatant proofs of ignorance and crass idiocy" should not be found walking the halls of the Defensores Fidei seminary, and if for some reason or other one does happen to gain admittance, they will likely not have the responsibility of mentoring any non-Amarrians during their studies.

Foreign insight into the spiritual and divine is not discounted by way of having non-amarrians being guided by an Amarrian holder. Rather, the relationship exists merely to assistance those of non-Amarr origins with any particular language, cultural, or experience barriers which may exist and prevent understanding of certain lessons or principles being taught. Some Non-Amarr already have a rich understanding of the several Amarrian contexts that are present within the scriptures, such as Ammatars, therefore the degree of dependence on the Amarr mentor varies from pair to pair.

As for the "superiority of the Amarr", this is not the subject of this thread, but indeed is a subject worth exploring. Perhaps I will encourage one of the students herein to write a treatise on Amarr superiority that we might discuss this in more detail.

I hope this clears things up.

Yours,
Oversee Dex


Thank you for the clarification on the matter. I naturally trust your people, even if I would not have proceeded as such. Though the idea of pairs in studies has always been a good concept.

Louella Dougans
Amarr
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
Posted - 2011.05.31 17:00:00 - [32]
 

The status of Tash-Murkon Family as an Heir Family is proof that righteousness is not limited to True Amarr.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.05.31 20:10:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Knowing that a lot of amarrian originated individuals are blatant proofs of ignorance and crass idiocy (like in any society), and that some foreigners can show a lot more insight in amarrian theology (for various reasons, acumen, knowledge, wisdom, etc), I am not sure if positioning foreigners systematically under amarrian originated students is a wise choice, or just a way to express that the Amarr bloodline is superior.

Am I wrong ?


No broad strokes about the Ammar, or any people in general indeed. Once again I pose my questions to you that you deem so unsubstantial. Would you question the Caldari of a privately run industrial school? Or the Gallente of a civics school? Likely not as common sense would assume those people are emminently qualified in those fields in order to undertake such an endeavor. The only defense I have made is common sense. Something you clearly have been blinded to, and if not for anger or hatred what reason then? If not those reasons why the terse response laden with insults and condescension? Was my tone inappropriate?

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.01 08:14:00 - [34]
 

It looks like you are still stuck on the first of my statement. You should read my second one above, the answers lie here.

In any case, if you think that a teacher or a student are automatically unflawed, the you are a fool.

Domitianus Fury
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.06.02 11:57:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
It looks like you are still stuck on the first of my statement. You should read my second one above, the answers lie here.

In any case, if you think that a teacher or a student are automatically unflawed, the you are a fool.


And you are a Minmatar peasant who doesn't understand her place. It is only with generosity and kindness that any Amarrian holders even acknowledge you here. I suggest you seek help from an agent of the theology council for remediation on Imperial ettiquete and techniques on how to learn to control your primitive rebellious tribal outbursts otherwise you may soon find yourself ignored by the holders here.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.02 20:43:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 02/06/2011 20:44:15
Originally by: Domitianus Fury
Originally by: Lyn Farel
It looks like you are still stuck on the first of my statement. You should read my second one above, the answers lie here.

In any case, if you think that a teacher or a student are automatically unflawed, the you are a fool.


And you are a Minmatar peasant who doesn't understand her place. It is only with generosity and kindness that any Amarrian holders even acknowledge you here. I suggest you seek help from an agent of the theology council for remediation on Imperial ettiquete and techniques on how to learn to control your primitive rebellious tribal outbursts otherwise you may soon find yourself ignored by the holders here.


Captain Fury,

While we are speaking about proper étiquette, I was adressing to Mr Tzestu. Unless you speak for him, of course, I would suggest you to refrain from overstepping your bonds.

In any case, I shall also respectfully point to you that by calling me a peasant, you might also insult in the same place lord Ardishapur himself and the whole Amarr Empire if you think that Ammatar Holders are actually peasants. I think if there is someone here who might not understand his place in the great Scheme of things, it could be you. It was obviously out of ignorance, but confusing your allies with Minmatar tribals is quite disturbing.

Who are you, yourself, if I may ask ? Your CONCORD track record only shows a licence of less than half a month as a capsuleer, and I have yet to see you on the warzone. You might discover that the world is quite different of what you seem to think. You are a capsuleer now. The Amarr social ladder means nothing here.

Best regards,
Farel.

Jesmine Kyriel
Amarr
House Kyriel Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.02 22:33:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Domitianus Fury
Originally by: Lyn Farel
It looks like you are still stuck on the first of my statement. You should read my second one above, the answers lie here.

In any case, if you think that a teacher or a student are automatically unflawed, the you are a fool.


And you are a Minmatar peasant who doesn't understand her place. It is only with generosity and kindness that any Amarrian holders even acknowledge you here. I suggest you seek help from an agent of the theology council for remediation on Imperial ettiquete and techniques on how to learn to control your primitive rebellious tribal outbursts otherwise you may soon find yourself ignored by the holders here.


And you should mind you tone, Paladin Crusader, as you are obviously ignorant of whom you are conversing with and throwing ignorance and arrogant accusations against.

Allow this exiled Holder to educate you and free you from your foolish behavior;

The Ammatar, Ardent Paladin Lyn Farel of the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown currently hold the rank of Divine Commodore, thus out-rank you supremely in the Crusade, as a beginning. Further, she has spent the last year and then some struggling on the Republican front, as her rank can attest. Before this, she served as Conclave member of the Aegis Militia, a highly respected Imperial organization and an ally of the CVA in Providence.

Her record include the struggle to cleanse Providence of the insurgent Ushra'Khan, among other deeds. She is a full year, one month and 12 days ahead of you in the militia and can actually claim to have done something in the Empire's service.

That is a bit of her status as a capsuleer. As an Imperial citizen, she has the rank of Holder, and thus either out-rank you or maintain the same social tier. In the rare event that you actually out-rank her, respect for a fellow faithful is only proper. Either way, your disrespect and crude remarks are quite out of line.

Even if we ignore all this and take into account only the content of this argument, then her position comes ahead stronger than you seem to think, by virtue if having sound arguments. Most of her concerns have apparently been answered – satisfactory, as well – by Overseer Dex of the Defensores Fidei.

In case you missed it, I will repeat the issue here;

Holder Farel feared that placing non-Amarrian students under Amarrian teachers may be a way for the CLRGY seminar to illustrate Amarrian superiority, and underlined that this was not absolutely a wise choice as even Amarrians could well be fools and unfit to this task and that many non-Amarr might well be suited for such a task in their stead.

She wondered if this was a wrongful concern.

Overseer Dex answered this concern;

“If this statement is made generally, then I can say that indeed there may be merit to the contention.

However, if this is made in regards to the CVA Clergy, then I would say that the statement does not take into consideration the amount of scrutiny each applicant is put through before being accepted into the program. "Blatant proofs of ignorance and crass idiocy" should not be found walking the halls of the Defensores Fidei seminary, and if for some reason or other one does happen to gain admittance, they will likely not have the responsibility of mentoring any non-Amarrians during their studies.

Foreign insight into the spiritual and divine is not discounted by way of having non-amarrians being guided by an Amarrian holder. Rather, the relationship exists merely to assistance those of non-Amarr origins with any particular language, cultural, or experience barriers which may exist and prevent understanding of certain lessons or principles being taught. Some Non-Amarr already have a rich understanding of the several Amarrian contexts that are present within the scriptures, such as Ammatars, therefore the degree of dependence on the Amarr mentor varies from pair to pair.”


(cont.)

Jesmine Kyriel
Amarr
House Kyriel Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.02 22:40:00 - [38]
 

Continued)

- In short, the pairing of non-Amarr students with Amarrian teachers is simply how the CLRGY seminar works for practical reasons rather than backwards hubris.

Nor Tzestu, one of CLRGY's newest members and a highly fresh capsuleer himself, miss-took Lady Farel's statement about the ability for Amarrians to be ignorant fools (this is common sense) and believed, apparently, that her statement was a racist statement about Amarrians in general. He then shamefully extrapolated from this, that Lady Farel is 'clearly' blind to common sense and even further, that this is due to 'anger' and 'hatred' on her part. I can only assume he ignorantly refer to her Minmatar features with this – much like you.

I will pray you will both learn something from this and - if nothing else – offer Lady Farel the apology you owe her.

And, for your information, this Amarrian Holder will acknowledge Ammatar Holder Farel's right to speak in public all she desires, especially here as CONCORD manage the summit, not any Imperial law alone. Ergo, I could not deny her this right even if I wanted to.

Finally, if I were to ignore anyone here, it would be you. I find your behavior quite unsightly and shameful of a Crusader, however, so this is your note.

Acerba Agikor
Amarr
Posted - 2011.06.02 23:27:00 - [39]
 

And so everyone learned an important lesson: although the Amarr are, collectively, God's chosen, some individuals are less chosen than others.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.06.03 01:10:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
It looks like you are still stuck on the first of my statement. You should read my second one above, the answers lie here.

In any case, if you think that a teacher or a student are automatically unflawed, the you are a fool.


I shall end this here. Your strawman argument of my assumptions really is the only "clunky" thing I come away with. Your entitled to your opinion obviously and I see no further need to discuss it anymore. Fly safely.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.06.03 01:34:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Jesmine Kyriel
Continued)

- In short, the pairing of non-Amarr students with Amarrian teachers is simply how the CLRGY seminar works for practical reasons rather than backwards hubris.

Nor Tzestu, one of CLRGY's newest members and a highly fresh capsuleer himself, miss-took Lady Farel's statement about the ability for Amarrians to be ignorant fools (this is common sense) and believed, apparently, that her statement was a racist statement about Amarrians in general. He then shamefully extrapolated from this, that Lady Farel is 'clearly' blind to common sense and even further, that this is due to 'anger' and 'hatred' on her part. I can only assume he ignorantly refer to her Minmatar features with this – much like you.

I will pray you will both learn something from this and - if nothing else – offer Lady Farel the apology you owe her.

And, for your information, this Amarrian Holder will acknowledge Ammatar Holder Farel's right to speak in public all she desires, especially here as CONCORD manage the summit, not any Imperial law alone. Ergo, I could not deny her this right even if I wanted to.

Finally, if I were to ignore anyone here, it would be you. I find your behavior quite unsightly and shameful of a Crusader, however, so this is your note.



Respectfully I will say this in a manner that befits someone of higher status than myself. The only "shameful" thing being done is mistaking someones intent, of which I am guilty. If I may inquire as to why you so freely offer your opinion of my thought process, while taking me to task for doing the same of another? Clearly I need to listen more and talk less, and simply defer to my superiors on CLRGY related matters from this point hence. That said I will continue to stand by the fact when it come's to my intent and thought process, I shall remain your superior on the subject and maybe a bit of your own advice would be fitting.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.06.03 19:54:00 - [42]
 

Uh, thank you for your attention, Ms Kyriel, I was not expecting such support, and heartily accept it. I think that as a lot of conflicts, all of this came out of a mutual misunderstanding due to langage limitations and inaccuracies.

On a sidenote, I have actually been in the Crusade for 2 years and a half, as I entered it a few months after its opening. I am also unsure of what "Minmatar features" you refer to, as my family essentially comes from pure blooded amarrians and a few nefantars at the top of the genealogy. But maybe they are still visible here and there, but I am no expert in that kind of things...

Originally by: Nor Tzestu
Originally by: Lyn Farel
It looks like you are still stuck on the first of my statement. You should read my second one above, the answers lie here.

In any case, if you think that a teacher or a student are automatically unflawed, the you are a fool.


I shall end this here. Your strawman argument of my assumptions really is the only "clunky" thing I come away with. Your entitled to your opinion obviously and I see no further need to discuss it anymore. Fly safely.


As you wish. Godspeed as well.

Archbishop
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.06.03 20:26:00 - [43]
 


A splendid opportunity for individuals to come closer to God. I look forward to seeing the first batch of graduates walk down the golden aisle illuminated by the light of God and all He has to offer.

Archbishop

Caviar Liberta
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2011.06.13 00:47:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Sinjin Mokk
I would think it is open to anyone who genuinly seeks a path to God.
If you enter this under false pretenses, you will learn nothing. You must be an empty vessel, waiting to be filled.



*Caviar Liberta is seen studying a datapad*

Mr. Mokk I've been doing some research, and as I was thought never to go into battle without arming one self, be it with words even.

"A sealed vessel can not have more added to it unless you have the patience to carefully open it. Even then it must be capable of accepting more."

unknown author

I agree that if a person who comes with a false pretense then they are not capable of learning, however I believe there is no such thing as an empty vessel. To quote again *motioning with datapad in hand*

"A vessel will not willing empty its own contents as it is part of the vessel, or to empty it would require destroying it and what it contains within. You can only open it and hope what you add to it becomes part of the vessel also"

I look forward to your reply Mr. Mokk


Sinjin Mokk
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2011.06.13 05:36:00 - [45]
 

Mr. Liberta,

Thank you for your response. I’m neither a theologian nor a philosopher. I’m a warrior. As such, I tend to frame things based on the philosophies of the masters and priests who have instructed me over the years.

“Even then it must be capable of accepting more."

One Master I worked with explained to me that when learning something new, one must forget the old for a while. If I hold a glass that is half full, it represents what I’ve learned so far. A full glass represents what I’m about to learn. I must discard my past experiences to fully accept the new.

Or…when using a sword or a gun, there are differences between the different styles. Each must be learned as a separate entity before one can learn to use them together. Although they are based on the same hull, a Zealot is a very different ship than an Omen. I can fit a Zealot as I would an Omen, but I would I would not be using that ship to the best of it’s or my ability. Once I trained both, I was able to fly them and outfit them as the very separate ships they are. I can slot a chip to make me faster, but until I’ve trained how to use it, I’m not half as fast as I could be. If I were to seek a different form of spiritual training, I would have to accept it for what it is, without the preconceptions of my former beliefs.

Some of my training, both martial and spiritual, involves skill in meditation. A priest would teach me to meditate on a passage of scripture. A dueling master would teach me to meditate on balance or the perfection of a weapon in form and function.

Then one day, I was sent to learn unarmed combat from a very small, very old man. It didn’t matter if I was armed or unarmed; I quickly realized that I could not even touch him unless he allowed it. His style was odd. It involved circles and using the force of an attack against the attacker. He taught me to meditate on nothing. To completely clear my mind. This is a lot harder than it sounds! It’s easy to enter a meditative state, but your subconscious keeps bringing up memories, thoughts, past conversations or it responds to the environment, distant sounds, smells. Slowly, eventually I learned how to be empty. To be in a state of utter passivity where time and thought and action mean nothing. When I was able to finally do this, I was finally able to learn his Art. Then, I went back and relearned every other weapon or ship or scripture I’d ever learned.

"Only through many hardships
Is a man stripped to his very foundations
And in such a state
Devoid of distractions
Is his soul free to soar
And in this
He is closest to God"
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5


The years of training, the hardships and sacrifice, the time spent in the memorization of scripture and the responsibilities of command and I couldn’t lay a finger on a little old guy! Then I was truly taken down to my foundations and in the darkness of perfect stillness, I truly became the Khanid, the paladin, the man, I was meant to be.

There have been many more losses, trials and tribulations over the years…recent event alone…but; in emptiness I can fully accept what is before me and learn it.

This is the state I would hope the novitiates can achieve. That they can set aside their past, be stripped down and rebuilt. To be a slave unto God is to accept the ultimate surrender. But you can’t serve God, if you serve another master.

I’ve had to recently re-examine parts of my past and I can’t say I’m happy with what I’ve found. I may not be the perfect servant of God, but I can strive to be better. I can find better ways to serve my God my King and my People. To do this, I must be an empty vessel, and then fill myself on the wisdom that God provides.


Kerron Dex Ormand
Posted - 2011.07.22 00:33:00 - [46]
 

umm dex? I wonder could I be a distant relative? I don't know if I have family in the Amarr?


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