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blankseplocked Jumpdrives are overpowered
 
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.18 10:29:00 - [1]
 

Assertion:
Jumpdrives need to slow down to 0.5 lightyears per minute to balance them out with subcapitals.

Reasoning:
Until there were jumpdrives (with metagaming) there was a simple rule: The smaller the ship - the faster, the bigger the ship - the slower.
Jumpdrive-mechanics introduced a discontinuity to this rule.

Subcapitals:
Subcapitals have to use jumpgates to get from one system to the other. So to make some distance on the map, those ships have to go from one jumpgate to the next, inside the system.. by using warp. This does give a tradeoff between powerful big and small tiny ships (should ideally, reality looks bit different atmo). Although jumpgates move a ship instantaneous, for the whole journey time goes past.
Rule of thumb: 30s/system for frigs.. 90s/system for freighters. For making 10 LY into one direction you usually have to cross 5-10 systems.. thus 2.5-5 min in a frig and 7.5-15 min in a freighter.

Capitals:
Ships with jumpdrives on the other hand don't have this malice. As soon as you have got cyno-alts all over the place (the metagaming part), you essentially removed the time it needs to move from one gate to the next and made travelling instantaneous. CCP might initially not have anticipated such a widespread solo-playstyle and probably thought players would rely more on each other for going around.
Rule of thumb: 10 LY instantaneous with pre-positioned cyno-alts. Every time.

Metagaming caused that ships with jumpdrives can move faster on the map than the fastest ship without jumpdrive. The ramifications:
  • logistics is faster than without JD
  • logistics goes further than without JD
  • fast escalation of fights with additional capitals


Nerf them hard! ugh

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.05.18 10:40:00 - [2]
 

Why don't we just add a new astronautics rig that allows a ship to jump? It would have to use like 200 calibration probably, just think of the possibilities though.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.05.18 10:40:00 - [3]
 

So the same should apply to clone jumping too right?

Drake Iddon
Posted - 2011.05.18 12:01:00 - [4]
 

Quote:
Assertion: Jumpdrives need to slow down to 0.5 lightyears per minute to balance them out with subcapitals.


so the cyno wouldnt even be there by the time the caps do a 5au+ jump


Also this would make black ops completly useless.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.05.18 12:10:00 - [5]
 

The real problem is that ships with jump drives travel so fast that they get to their destination before leaving their starting point. If you start to jump you appear at the destination, then aborting the jump before it happens results in your ship being duplicated. Having a clone at the destination now doubles your pleasure. Yeah, I made that up.

Tradari
Gallente
LUSH Industrys
The Grundle Kings
Posted - 2011.05.18 12:10:00 - [6]
 

Personally i think the OP has not really thought this trhough. A cyno opens a gate stright to the system so you not really flying there but more like a stargate to that system.

However i Love the idea of a module that allows a ship to use jump drive and depending on the ships PG or CPU or even jump drive skill would vary the jump range.

The above would really open up hot drops and travel as a whole but to go with this i would suggest that we also allow cynos into high sec and bring capitals into high sec too. imagine Concord blowing up a dread or carrier after it engages the wrong target on a gate camp the LOL's to be had.

But to open up a little more on my 2nd pargraph i would love to see smaller ships with jump drive Fleets of cyno capable frigs or cruisers the possiblities for combat would really open up.

Please carry on talking about this im interested on other peoples thoughts on a module based jump drive

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.18 12:33:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Drake Iddon
Quote:
Assertion: Jumpdrives need to slow down to 0.5 lightyears per minute to balance them out with subcapitals.


so the cyno wouldnt even be there by the time the caps do a 5au+ jump


Also this would make black ops completly useless.

AU isnt lightyears, although yeah there would be that problem, although of course you can just make cyno autorepeat.

Dont think this solution is really great, but there definately does need to come a nerf to jump drives.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.18 12:46:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank
So the same should apply to clone jumping too right?

Let's see.. largest distance you can jump within 24 hours is what?
For example: LX5K-W (Tenal) to 3KNA-N (Paragon Soul) is roughly 100 LY across. So 100 LY every 24 hours. Gives roughly 0.07LY/min.
Might be 'just' an idea to slow.

Originally by: Drake Iddon
Quote:
Assertion: Jumpdrives need to slow down to 0.5 lightyears per minute to balance them out with subcapitals.

So the cyno wouldnt even be there by the time the caps do a 5au+ jump

Also this would make black ops completly useless.

Well, you can always change the mechanic to: 'The cyno is just a beacon you lock onto. Once it's locked it's not needed any more.' If it gets destroyed or runs out before you're there it doesn't matter.
Why do we need cynos at all?

As for Bops.. that free intel tool called local is a ***** eh? Don't like it either. Might need some tweaking. Or get rid of the cyno.

Originally by: Tradari
Personally i think the OP has not really thought this trhough. A cyno opens a gate stright to the system so you not really flying there but more like a stargate to that system.
*snip*

You should read the OP again. I spoke about METAGAMING and unintended feature usage by players.. you know that stuff CCP puts into the client, we then start to use (sometimes in unexpected ways or amounts) and CCP then thinks "Ooohhh ****, that's not how this is supposed to work - damn labrats!" - and changes it.

Brema Gangrel
Caldari
Drama Llamas
Posted - 2011.05.18 12:55:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Drake Iddon
Quote:
Assertion: Jumpdrives need to slow down to 0.5 lightyears per minute to balance them out with subcapitals.


so the cyno wouldnt even be there by the time the caps do a 5au+ jump


Also this would make black ops completly useless.

AU isnt lightyears, although yeah there would be that problem, although of course you can just make cyno autorepeat.

Dont think this solution is really great, but there definately does need to come a nerf to jump drives.


Just as a comparison...

1 light year is *roughly* equivelent to about 63240 Astronomical Units (AU's)

So more importantly... where has all the empty space gone?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.05.18 13:07:00 - [10]
 

You just need a "spool up" time on actual jumps (to give the opportunity for the target of a hotdrop to either destroy the cyno ship OR attempt to warp out before the jumpy thingies actually arrive - a few seconds should do just fine) and a "cooldown" time between jumps that's not linked to capacitor recharge (to prevent quick succession jumps - say around half hour or so, give or take).

Ehrys Marakai
Caldari
Evolution
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.05.18 13:32:00 - [11]
 

You cannot use jump drives to get into empire.

Empire logistics, therefore, must run at your "normal speed"

Capitals cannot use gates. (Majority of Jump Drive enabled ships are capital class.)

Jump Drives can only be used with beacons. This makes things harder as the system must be clear. Also means you cannot jump into jammed systems.


So to counter your time balance changes...
1. Allow us to jump into empire
2. Allow us to use stargates with capitals
3. Remove beacons and system ja....

Hell, we may as well just remove them completely :P

Laurent Savard
Posted - 2011.05.18 13:41:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tres Farmer

You should read the OP again. I spoke about METAGAMING and unintended feature usage by players.. you know that stuff CCP puts into the client, we then start to use (sometimes in unexpected ways or amounts) and CCP then thinks "Ooohhh ****, that's not how this is supposed to work - damn labrats!" - and changes it.



Except I see no evidence that the use of Cyno Alts is in any way unintended.

The ability to run multiple accounts simultaneously and the Jump Clone mechanic pretty much suggests this behavior is quite normal and intended by CCP.

If they wanted to change this, there have to be better mechanics than your suggestion.

Jump drives are instantaneous by design... you seem to be complaining that the "delay" which is sitting around waiting for a friend to log in to cyno you is being unexpectedly circumvented, which doesn't seem plausible.

By your argument, the use of a cloaked alt to scout gate jumps for a main seems far more egregious, and I think everyone is pretty OK with that mechanic Razz

Sealiah
Minmatar
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Care Factor
Posted - 2011.05.18 15:05:00 - [13]
 

Please move to F&I :)

And besides that, idea was proposed very, very many times, a commonly proposed one in fact. Jump Drives are now being nerfed by being excluded from using JBs, so now subcaps have JBs and caps are forced to use cynos.

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.18 16:15:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Ehrys Marakai
You cannot use jump drives to get into empire.
Empire logistics, therefore, must run at your "normal speed"
Capitals cannot use gates. (Majority of Jump Drive enabled ships are capital class.)
Jump Drives can only be used with beacons. This makes things harder as the system must be clear. Also means you cannot jump into jammed systems.

And all of this has what kind of relevance when I compare subcapital speed to move several lightyears on the map vs capital speed on the map?
Subcapitals can very well run around low/nulsec and there their speed on the map is subpar to capitals.. especially when we look at projection of power.

Originally by: Laurent Savard
*snip*
Jump drives are instantaneous by design... you seem to be complaining that the "delay" which is sitting around waiting for a friend to log in to cyno you is being unexpectedly circumvented, which doesn't seem plausible.

By your argument, the use of a cloaked alt to scout gate jumps for a main seems far more egregious, and I think everyone is pretty OK with that mechanic Razz

The thing is, there is not much scouting going on. Cyno-alts sit in strategically useful systems, get logged in by several people of an alliance (shared) and when the air is clean, the cyno goes up. This allows many capitals to jump over vast distances on the map in a very short amount of time. No subcapital can do something like this.

Originally by: Sealiah
*snip*
Jump Drives are now being nerfed by being excluded from using JBs, so now subcaps have JBs and caps are forced to use cynos.

Subcaps still got to run from JB to JB and 'waste' time. Now even more so, as they got to cross a normal stargate before they can access the next JB.
Capitals don't have this malice and are still overpowered in comparison to that.

CCP Zymurgist


Gallente
C C P
Posted - 2011.05.18 16:28:00 - [15]
 

Moved from General Discussion.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.18 20:13:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ehrys Marakai
You cannot use jump drives to get into empire.

Empire logistics, therefore, must run at your "normal speed"

Capitals cannot use gates. (Majority of Jump Drive enabled ships are capital class.)

Jump Drives can only be used with beacons. This makes things harder as the system must be clear. Also means you cannot jump into jammed systems.


So to counter your time balance changes...
1. Allow us to jump into empire
2. Allow us to use stargates with capitals
3. Remove beacons and system ja....

Hell, we may as well just remove them completely :P


Exactly this, I was going to say JumpBridges could stand a distance buff. I disagree with the op..

Katrina Cortez
Posted - 2011.05.18 20:25:00 - [17]
 

wow... just wow... this made me laugh hard

Fullmetal Jackass
Posted - 2011.05.19 08:09:00 - [18]
 

Dumped in the hole where CCP can ignore you. A shame since I agree that cap ship are too mobile. And why the **** do we need cynos? Everyone and thier brother's dog has a cyno alt or 6 which makes the "two man requirement to jump a ship" moot.


 

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