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flummox
Posted - 2011.07.08 18:07:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
You want harsh? 10% loss of SP, a $ fee, only once per character, and have a permanent "AKA blah" on the character sheet.



let's take it a bit further:

100% loss of SP, no $ fee, loss of all assets, standing reset, corporation history whipe, etc.

which is just bringing us right back to "Start A New Character".

Cendric De'Credsiu
Posted - 2011.07.08 21:15:00 - [62]
 

Only way I would or could support a name change is with a legit char transfer to another account, even then it could be abused and would not be a good idea.

Phonspillion Apitar'IV
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:17:00 - [63]
 

I'm of the opinion that any character of less than a year should just be started over. On the other hand, if you've gone an entire year without realizing you've got a stupid name, well then tough bananas.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:52:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
You want harsh? 10% loss of SP…
I’ll add that to the pile. But honestly, is there any in-game reason (immersion) why there should be a loss of skill points? Just sounds vindictive to me
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
Only way I would or could support a name change is with a legit char transfer to another account, even then it could be abused and would not be a good idea.
Hmm, could you elaborate on what you define as ‘legit’ and how it would be abused?
Originally by: Phonspillion Apitar'IV
I'm of the opinion that any character of less than a year should just be started over. On the other hand, if you've gone an entire year without realizing you've got a stupid name, well then tough bananas.
Black and white arguments rarely fully meet the needs of anyone
Originally by: flummox
Hey! Hey guys read this! Read it! Hey!
It’s ok, I do read your posts, thanks for bumping this thread again

Cendric De'Credsiu
Posted - 2011.07.09 06:51:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer

Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
Only way I would or could support a name change is with a legit char transfer to another account, even then it could be abused and would not be a good idea.
Hmm, could you elaborate on what you define as ‘legit’ and how it would be abused?



Legit would be CCP sanctioned character trade threw the bazaar.

How it could be abused simple. Player A is a known ganker and spy, no corp will take him, any corp that does he steals from and suicide ganks new players ect you name it. Basically this player is a real scum bag on this toon. He grows weary of not being able to get into corps to steal from them and his reputation has grown to the point that everybody leaves what ever system he enters. He then makes another account and "sells" his toon to that account. Using a different email address and different name one of his kids names or his girl friends or what ever to avoid any chance of CCP tracking it back to him. He gets a name change as part of the deal and now removes the reputation that he had. He now can go back to being a scum bag with a new rep and other players have no warning.

That is the whole reason behind not being able to change the name of a toon currently, you should not be able to loose a reputation that you have built on a toon without hard work and dedication to actually changing your ways or changing the rep.

There are honorable pirates in the game both high sec and low that have excellent reputations for killing other players but being professional about it and always taking the time to give that player some tips and tricks to survive the next fight. There are also players that have developed a reputation close to what I described above and the only way they should be able to loose that rep is by changing there ways (or appearing to long enough) or making a new toon.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:21:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
Player A... grows weary of not being able to get into corps to steal from them and his reputation has grown to the point that everybody leaves what ever system he enters. He then makes another account and "sells" his toon to that account. Using a different email address and different name one of his kids names or his girl friends or what ever to avoid any chance of CCP tracking it back to him.
…Excesssive
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
He gets a name change as part of the deal and now removes the reputation that he had. He now can go back to being a scum bag with a new rep and other players have no warning.
No. The ‘AKA system’ provides in-game, searchable documentation on name changes in the character info window (new tab). Nothing is removed, nothing is escaped. There have been many ideas to supplement the AKA System and recently I got bored and posted those on the test forum (while it’s still up) [Proposal] Name Changing
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
That is the whole reason behind not being able to change the name of a toon currently, you should not be able to loose a reputation...
Again, that is the whole reason behind the AKA System

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.07.18 21:25:00 - [67]
 

Bump

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.18 21:39:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Bump

Thanks for the bump, I needed a good laugh and your proposal delivers.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.07.19 02:30:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Bump

Thanks for the bump, I needed a good laugh and your proposal delivers.

And thank you too, I can always use a weak foil

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.19 13:27:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
Player A... grows weary of not being able to get into corps to steal from them and his reputation has grown to the point that everybody leaves what ever system he enters. He then makes another account and "sells" his toon to that account. Using a different email address and different name one of his kids names or his girl friends or what ever to avoid any chance of CCP tracking it back to him.
…Excesssive
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
He gets a name change as part of the deal and now removes the reputation that he had. He now can go back to being a scum bag with a new rep and other players have no warning.
No. The ‘AKA system’ provides in-game, searchable documentation on name changes in the character info window (new tab). Nothing is removed, nothing is escaped. There have been many ideas to supplement the AKA System and recently I got bored and posted those on the test forum (while it’s still up) [Proposal] Name Changing
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
That is the whole reason behind not being able to change the name of a toon currently, you should not be able to loose a reputation...
Again, that is the whole reason behind the AKA System


The AKA system won't work...we went over this at length already. Do you need more people saying so explicitly before you believe that all the silence on the thread is not us 'wondering if you are right' but us shaking our heads and wondering why you still think it will work? I really think that you should live in lowsec or nullsec a bit to realize that some aka will not work. The proof is shown in how people name their ships something different just to avoid getting primary targeted in big fleet battles. And it does work.

Atkyaz Dreadstalker
Minmatar
Society of lost Souls

Posted - 2011.07.19 16:32:00 - [71]
 

I understand many of the concerns in this thread.

But allowing name changes is not such a big deal. Especially if it was combined with character name history on public character sheet and automatically updating the name for any other player that has them saved as a contact or blocked contact.

Many players buying characters off the bazaar would love to change the name, but it is just one of the things you have to live with buying a character rather than creating one from scratch.

Personally I would like to change my name. Not because of any reputation or history but just because nobody in voice chat can seem to pronounce it. My mistake for not thinking of that when I created the character but I have used this name in several different MMO's over the years.

There are many players here with reasons why a character name change could be used as an exploit, but not changing the name of a character bought off the bazaar can be equally exploited.

Say for example a character well established and known in the game is sold. They have to notify their current corp that they are being sold, be in an NPC corp when sold, etc. But what about past corps that the character was in, or contacts they have that the previous owner has earned the trust of? They may not know the character was sold. The new owner can use past character reputation for espionage, or to get into a big alliance, possibly with access to alliance assets granted based on the characters reputation. Especially if the player buying the character knew that character in the past, new there history and how to pass themselves off as the original owner. They may have bought that character as much to exploit its reputation as for the skill points.

In such a situation the seller and their friends would benefit from a mandatory renaming at character transfer. Rather than giving the buyer a choice to rename a character or not I think character renaming when being transferred should be mandatory. The buyer should not benifit or suffer for the reputation of the previous owner. And the previous owners contacts should not suffer from the sale either. This can even come down to a hauling alt(freighter Pilot) sold cheap on the bazaar that had a reputation for being very dependable and many players trusted that character enough to give them contracts at reduced collateral. Then the new owner exploited that reputation and many stole billions of isk worth of assets(possibly more than they paid for the character to begin with) before other players stopped trusting them.

Although having mandatory character name changes on transfer could be exploited I truly believe that the exploits possible with not changing the name are far worse.

Consider another possible scenario. You played with a character a few years ago got along well. they were a great FC and a great asset to the alliance you were both in. For what ever reason you parted ways and have not seen them in game for over a year. You are now in a new alliance and have worked your way to the top. You then meet this old friend you have not seen in a year and offer them a position in your new alliance knowing how great of an asset they were in the past, you recommend them for immediate promotion. Over the next month or so corp and alliance assets start to go missing, eventually some capital ships disappear from the POSes they were left at. By the time you realize that this character is no longer the old friend you trusted they have stolen billions in assets from the alliance, and they blame you for bringing him in. Had this player been forced to change the name at character transfer you would have known it was a different owner and not gotten exploited.

Yes having a mandatory name change at transfer could let players change their name simply by transferring that character to another account, but I believe the potential for exploits is a lot higher by not having names changed. It will do far more good than harm.

Ahaz Darkfall
Posted - 2011.07.19 16:43:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
Player A... grows weary of not being able to get into corps to steal from them and his reputation has grown to the point that everybody leaves what ever system he enters. He then makes another account and "sells" his toon to that account. Using a different email address and different name one of his kids names or his girl friends or what ever to avoid any chance of CCP tracking it back to him.
…Excesssive
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
He gets a name change as part of the deal and now removes the reputation that he had. He now can go back to being a scum bag with a new rep and other players have no warning.
No. The ‘AKA system’ provides in-game, searchable documentation on name changes in the character info window (new tab). Nothing is removed, nothing is escaped. There have been many ideas to supplement the AKA System and recently I got bored and posted those on the test forum (while it’s still up) [Proposal] Name Changing
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
That is the whole reason behind not being able to change the name of a toon currently, you should not be able to loose a reputation...
Again, that is the whole reason behind the AKA System


The AKA system won't work...we went over this at length already. Do you need more people saying so explicitly before you believe that all the silence on the thread is not us 'wondering if you are right' but us shaking our heads and wondering why you still think it will work? I really think that you should live in lowsec or nullsec a bit to realize that some aka will not work. The proof is shown in how people name their ships something different just to avoid getting primary targeted in big fleet battles. And it does work.


I can second that this does work, most of my haulers are named as a faction shuttle. it has gotten me ignored more times than targeted.

Atkyaz Dreadstalker
Minmatar
Society of lost Souls
Posted - 2011.07.19 16:50:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
Player A... grows weary of not being able to get into corps to steal from them and his reputation has grown to the point that everybody leaves what ever system he enters. He then makes another account and "sells" his toon to that account. Using a different email address and different name one of his kids names or his girl friends or what ever to avoid any chance of CCP tracking it back to him.
…Excesssive
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
He gets a name change as part of the deal and now removes the reputation that he had. He now can go back to being a scum bag with a new rep and other players have no warning.
No. The ‘AKA system’ provides in-game, searchable documentation on name changes in the character info window (new tab). Nothing is removed, nothing is escaped. There have been many ideas to supplement the AKA System and recently I got bored and posted those on the test forum (while it’s still up) [Proposal] Name Changing
Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
That is the whole reason behind not being able to change the name of a toon currently, you should not be able to loose a reputation...
Again, that is the whole reason behind the AKA System


The AKA system won't work...we went over this at length already. Do you need more people saying so explicitly before you believe that all the silence on the thread is not us 'wondering if you are right' but us shaking our heads and wondering why you still think it will work? I really think that you should live in lowsec or nullsec a bit to realize that some aka will not work. The proof is shown in how people name their ships something different just to avoid getting primary targeted in big fleet battles. And it does work.


A good reputation can be exploited just as easy. for every character that would change there name to avoid a bad reputation there is another bought on the bazaar that is exploited for their good reputation that the new owner did not earn.

Make it so names can only be changed on character transfer, and can not be to an account that uses the the same e-mail/credit card/pay pal/isp etc. that should really limit the number of players transfer to an alt account just to change their name. But some one buying a character from the bazaar should not benefit or get punished for the reputation of the previous owner. Really what is worse, not knowing right away that a contact is someone you hate, or not knowing that a trusted contact now belongs to a new owner. I think the later is much worse.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.07.19 23:58:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
The AKA system won't work...we went over this at length already.
No, it went like this: you brought up a point flourished with pathos and I shot it down with logos. Repeat. Then you stopped because…
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Do you need more people saying so explicitly before you believe that all the silence on the thread is not us 'wondering if you are right' but us shaking our heads and wondering why you still think it will work?
Your silence was due to your lack of a point. Just like this post, because...
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
The proof is shown in how people name their ships something different just to avoid getting primary targeted in big fleet battles. And it does work.
Someone already posted the idea that a name changed should begin with the same letter as the original. See that? All your pathos shot down in one line of logos




Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I really think that you should live in lowsec or nullsec a bit to realize that some aka will not work.

Been there, done that. Let’s skip ethos, shall we? It won’t be pleasant

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.20 07:21:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
The AKA system won't work...we went over this at length already.
No, it went like this: you brought up a point flourished with pathos and I shot it down with logos. Repeat. Then you stopped because…
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Do you need more people saying so explicitly before you believe that all the silence on the thread is not us 'wondering if you are right' but us shaking our heads and wondering why you still think it will work?
Your silence was due to your lack of a point. Just like this post, because...
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
The proof is shown in how people name their ships something different just to avoid getting primary targeted in big fleet battles. And it does work.
Someone already posted the idea that a name changed should begin with the same letter as the original. See that? All your pathos shot down in one line of logos




Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I really think that you should live in lowsec or nullsec a bit to realize that some aka will not work.

Been there, done that. Let’s skip ethos, shall we? It won’t be pleasant


um... just because someone suggested a 'semi' fix doesn't make it the defacto 'i win' in the argument. You really should stop assuming that silence is our collective acknowledgement of a point conceded in favour of your argument. For instance, having the new name start with the same letter is a pathetic plug in the leaky damn of logic in this proposal. The point was that ANY change that would make it harder for someone to spot a name in a list won't be acceptable. If you accept this premise, then having a psuedoname starting with the same letter won't cut it. I thought that pretty obvious so didn't feel the need to point out that the ball was still in your court to fix this hole.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.07.21 02:16:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Paulize Dn''Injer on 21/07/2011 02:26:46
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
um... just because someone suggested a 'semi' fix doesn't make it the defacto 'i win' in the argument. For instance, having the new name start with the same letter is a pathetic plug in the leaky damn of logic in this proposal.
Um… No. Your argument as quoted was defeated. Now you’re retracting and arguing the proposal as a whole.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I thought that pretty obvious so didn't feel the need to point out that the ball was still in your court to fix this hole.
I thought it was pretty obvious that I didn’t need to point out that you better get your message straight:
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
If I haven't responded to point X, its either because somebody already did and I agreed with her point, or I agreed with your point to begin with.
Is that a ball in your hands? Why yes, it is! Whatever, I’m ‘obviously’ arguing as the defense here


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Finally after cutting through all the flourishes and we arrive at the single actual line of your post:
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
The point was that ANY change that would make it harder for someone to spot a name in a list won't be acceptable.

Then dedicate yourself to get rid of Character Transfers. It is a fact that Name Changing is an alternative to the Character Transfers where it is impossible “to spot a name in a list.” Name Changing isn’t making more disreputable people out of air, but channeling the existing ones to a system where their identity is accountable.

Does that agrument sound familiar? Oh yeah, because I’ve argued it before (Pass!) and you went “…”

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.21 03:56:00 - [77]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 21/07/2011 04:00:13
Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer


Finally after cutting through all the flourishes and we arrive at the single actual line of your post:
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
The point was that ANY change that would make it harder for someone to spot a name in a list won't be acceptable.

Then dedicate yourself to get rid of Character Transfers. It is a fact that Name Changing is an alternative to the Character Transfers where it is impossible “to spot a name in a list.” Name Changing isn’t making more disreputable people out of air, but channeling the existing ones to a system where their identity is accountable.

Does that agrument sound familiar? Oh yeah, because I’ve argued it before (Pass!) and you went “…”


I went '...' because I didn't think that you could miss such an obvious fact, and any further explanation would be superfluous. Also I don't like to repeat myself. But I'll make an exception here.

Yes. We WERE here before, and you simply refused to accept that as you have just AGREED that character transfer is 'bad' then why make it EASIER for people to farm and sell alts. No name change keeps the number of people doing that down.

The logic you can't seem to accept is this:
-Character transfers == escaping reputation (you seem to understand this)
-Name Changing == More character transfers (you seem NOT to understand this logic, WHY?)

I will spell it out to you again.
Why would you or JOE SMITH hesitate to buy a character today?
1) He doesn't want to be called "Mrs. PMS", it's just too silly.
2) He worries that even if he was okay with the name, "Mrs. PMS" may have a bad rep that he may inherit.

so you take those 2 things away with name changes and you get more character transfers.

Get it?

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain

Posted - 2011.07.21 12:49:00 - [78]
 

as long as there's name history on character sheet and api it's okay if you can change name for plex/aurum whatever jew gold it is.

it matters very little on battlefield who is who. just pew pew.


Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.07.22 00:46:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: Paulize Dn''Injer on 22/07/2011 01:24:10
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Overly emmotional and denigrating appeal of 'name changing makes farming more appealing'
Which has been resolved already:
Originally by: (Proposal)Name Changing
Character Transfer – Name Changes should not transfer in the event of a Character Transfer (reverting to the first name) and/or no character having been transferred will ever be allowed a name change. This is highly divisive, but it keeps the character market level
Get it?

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.22 05:03:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Paulize Dn'Injer
Edited by: Paulize Dn''Injer on 22/07/2011 01:24:10
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Overly emmotional and denigrating appeal of 'name changing makes farming more appealing'
Which has been resolved already:
Originally by: (Proposal)Name Changing
Character Transfer – Name Changes should not transfer in the event of a Character Transfer (reverting to the first name) and/or no character having been transferred will ever be allowed a name change. This is highly divisive, but it keeps the character market level
Get it?


I start a new character, change the name immediately to Mr.Badguy. Farm, make SP, make enemies. Sell the character. It reverts to the original clean name.

But you thought of that already right? You probably just forgot to cover that case.

And you mildly brushed off the MAIN reason against you, which is how it will make FCs job and local scanning suck. (no, please don't rehash the AKA alias again without some miraculous retrofitting that addresses this) And yes, you have to address this problem, not skirt around it, or make it seem like its not really that bad of a problem. If you want to debate whether its that big of a deal, only a consensus vote can vindicate you.

Paulize Dn'Injer
Posted - 2011.07.23 00:23:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Paulize Dn''Injer on 23/07/2011 01:32:57
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
I start a new character, change the name immediately to Mr.Badguy. Farm, make SP, make enemies. Sell the character. It reverts to the original clean name. But you thought of that already right? You probably just forgot to cover that case.
It is intrinsic:
Again, it maintains the conflict of purchasing a character with a silly name
Again, there will be no “clean name” because there will be an AKA record

…still better than the alternative of no accountability in Character transfers

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
And you mildly brushed off the MAIN reason against you, which is how it will make FCs job and local scanning suck. (no, please don't rehash the AKA alias again without some miraculous retrofitting that addresses this) And yes, you have to address this problem, not skirt around it, or make it seem like its not really that bad of a problem. If you want to debate whether its that big of a deal, only a consensus vote can vindicate you.
Old and Vindicated: FC’s aren’t looking for names, but hostiles. Standings will transfer and names are available in the AKA. If you think my replies are skirting the issue then provide more detailed information on how exactly they are and we can proceed.

…still better than the alternative of no accountability in Character Transfers


Y’know, I can be crass too, but I have enough respect for how thoughtfully and level-headed you used to post. As usual, tell me if I missed anything, in the past you did provide me with valuable insight on how Name Changing should and continues to evolve

SaraXDaven
Posted - 2011.08.09 03:05:00 - [82]
 

I want to change my name because this one is embarrassing me now that I decided to play this game seriously. >:


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