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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:12:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: WisdomPanda
In fairness, if you're looking for risk, you shouldn't be looking in high-sec. It implies a level of safety. Do I agree it's reward is just? Based on high-risk environments, no, it's not. If you want to apply risk to people though, do it in areas that are setup for it.
(aka, populate low-sec if 0.0 is too "omgahsovwar" for you.)
I'm not looking for a risk, i'm looking for a relatively higher reward even when i'm putting myself under risk of my ship/pod being destroyed and applying efforts to conquer some space for relatively safe mission running (even when that relative safety is secured, risks are still higher than in hi-sec).

I want to see economical motivation in blowing ships up and general pvp action. With current difference between hisec and lowsec/0.0 there's little to no motivation, and it's going to be even smaller after assigning all agents 20 quality (as most of 4/20 agents reside mostly in lowsec/0.0 atm).

YarrMama
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:16:00 - [152]
 

Anyone else see this as a nerf to the ninjas. Now they won't have all their targets in a few systems, but spread out over all of eve. Proof that CCP hates ninjas and loves carebears.Very Happy

Zaboth Garadath
Amarr
Ore Extraction Corporation
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:17:00 - [153]
 

Quote:
In general, these divisions and values did little other than adding complexity to an already complex game.


The complexity of EVE is what makes it great!

Lets see some random reviews on external websites:

Quote:
With such depth and complexity, it is hardly surprising that Eve Online attracts a good number of senior executives and business professionals.
-> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7256069.stm

Quote:
...Let me echo the overwhelming thoughts of players I’ve met since starting in Eve.

That thought is, “Eve’s complexity is a GOOD thing”.

Eve Online is a complex online game, but because of that complexity it allows for an amazing variety of game play and experiences in CCP’s sandbox.
-> http://www.eveonlinereview.com/world-of-warcraft-vs-eve-online/

Quote:
The complexity of EVE Online goes without saying. Although the challenge is one of the reasons why so many people engage in the game.
-> http://www.eve-online-game.com/info/guide/


I know its a relitavely small change in the whole scheme of things, but it almost seems like CCP wants EVE to be like all the other games in respect to complexity- one of the things that makes EVE unique...








TheLostPenguin
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:19:00 - [154]
 

Going to have to rofl alot at everyone that was predicting these changes would be some kind of epic hisec missioning nerf, instead we get instant +20 ql everywhere? That's hilarious frankly, and even after a number of years here it's good to see I can still be amazed at the stupid CCP thinks is good for the game.

That we've gotten 5 pages in and not one CCP post saying "dynamic agent ql is something we will/may look at in the future, but this is it for now" kinda means that idea is dead and buried I guess, shame as it may have actually made for some interesting dynamics in where people ran missions, now all we'll see is a slight adjustment to 0.5 combat agents not adjacent to lowsec (ohwait that's dodi already) and a return to status quo with ugly overpopulated missioning hubs. Even tho it would probaly have interupted my mission grind I was looking forward to seeing some movements of people around, and some skill/judgment involved in finding some nice lesser-used agentsSad

All the whiners that want hisec nerf:Not getting it.
Any kind of positive change to how agents/missions work:No.
Consolidation of agent types is kinda meh, it'll be a joy to the MUST. GRIND. PERFECTLY. FAST. crowd, to the rest of us those occasional moments of being asked to something else could be pleasant distraction for few minutes, not really any win there....
Is there really any point to this at all other than "might as well release whatever we ended up with after arsing about for months in meetings"? Not really.

Maybe one day we'll get some intelligent thought applied to missions, maybe by then there'll be more than a few corners of null worth living in too....

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:26:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Akita T
You should consider also removing the effect of truesec on rewards, and simply have just three reward "tiers" (for highsec/lowsec/0.0).

This!

There's no REAL difference between 0.5 and 0.9, so why should they give different rewards? All this does will be to generate yet group of main mission hubs...

Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:29:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
There's no REAL difference between 0.5 and 0.9

Suicide ganking is much easier in 0.5, so that's not actually true.

Carola Kessler
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:32:00 - [157]
 

Edited by: Carola Kessler on 16/05/2011 17:32:23
I'm also worried about the Change not longer beeing able to see Pilots NPC and Faction standings via Info:

•Information on a pilot's standings towards NPC corporations is no longer visible from 'Show Info'. You now see the standings information between you and the other pilot and the factions you each belong to.

This will crush Recruiting or make it ways harder as it is now for some Corps have Standing requirements in their agenda this change i think will have also an huge impact oon new and allready existing Corps within the Game. Sad

KristineKochanski
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:35:00 - [158]
 

I assume you were all drunk at the meeting when this one was agreed, it really is the only explanation.

I have always assumed that the reason for varied mission types from the same agent was to encourage (require) a new eve player to train and experience different ares of the game.

I think I'm right in saying now you can train a Hauler alt and run lvl 4 missions with him without any problems or the need for any other skills. Did anybody give any thought to these changes? You are going to create a whole new class a idiot EVE players or is that the idea appeal to the under 10s.

Also spreading out missioners away from the current hubs will make War Decs less effective.

0/10 really poor effort


Makumba Aki
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:37:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Imnar Blade
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
Originally by: Kiyohime Ronuken
Edited by: Kiyohime Ronuken on 16/05/2011 16:26:23
Yeah - move all L4s to lowsec so you pirates have someone to shoot at? SERIOUSLY?!
Did you ever hear about risk vs reward concept?

Our risk. Your reward. Uh, pass.

lol! :D

Ok, look at W-Space. Carebears make billions there despite the high risk. So high reward for high risk is rewarding for everyone. PVP folks have more targets and carebears higher income on average (even if counting losses in).

Makumba Aki
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:39:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: El'Niaga
I believe the scanner change will end up being an even greater detriment to the game than the agent change in empire. Already you have no risk for most pirates roaming 0.0 and you just made their job easier so they don't have to use scan probes etc. In the end combined with other 0.0 changes in recent times the end result is going to be fewer people playing in 0.0, and ultimately fewer people playing EVE if this continues.

Its claimed that Jump Bridges were to little risk for the reward. Yet the covert cloaking device used by many toons as young as just a couple months has absolutely no downturns. There is no way to turn off an enemies, he has complete control to pick and choose when and where he will attack. A skilled covert pilot can easily avoid any gate camps which are meaningless. If defenders form up they cloak and hide waiting til the defenders leave, before once again picking a soft target that has no chance of survival. Yet CCP takes not measure towards ending this. Instead they give an additional tool for these pilots to grief other players by lowering scan times and removing the need for probes.

I tell you I see dangerous signs that EVE is getting ready to leave its golden age, the changes are counterproductive to getting more people to move to 0.0. There is almost no reason to considering the risk compared to the rewards. SOE used focus groups to form the NGE, and it ended up being an utter disaster for SWG. I fear that CCP should seriously reconsider what they are doing and the path they are taking. Once they cross the line there is no taking it back. Once you lose the people you can't roll stuff back and hope they return, they've already lost trust in you. Don't be like SOE looking over at the mythical greener field, then find you burned your field to try to get over the fence and then failed to climb the fence.


HTFU or leave 0.0.. honestly.. it is on thing to complain about broken risk vs. rewards ratio... but complaining about high risk space being high risk is kinda stupid...

Kiyohime Ronuken
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:43:00 - [161]
 

I could point out that the risk in W-Space is even higher for potential invaders. No way to know how many people are logged off in there. One small pos could mean 3-4 people or 100+ alts logged off ready to fight - or even logged IN.

The risk for the invader is being stranded, cut off and trapped with loss of all ships and pods. Sure it happens all the time that a few invaders crush a small pos and set up shop themselves. Then again sometimes big groups get their guts stomped out wholesale. That's why it's RISK not 'certainty of utter doom'.

Anyhow - you're not talking risk vs reward. You're talking about changing the DEGREE of risk already present.

Thalis Malu
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:45:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
If you are looking into the possibility of reshuffling some agents, I would suggest you take mission variation into account while doing it. Not everyone hates the variation the old system offered, so it would be nice, if there would be intentionally made locations where agents of the same level but different division could be found in the same station/system.

Basicly this would be catering to players who want to do different types of missions for a short period of time to add variation to the grind. With some mixed division hubs they wouldn't have to travel far to be able to do that. I think this is an important consideration, since the old system catered in a limited way to more play styles in the same location, but the new system doesn't because the agent distribution is inherited instead of being designed for the new system from the start.


+1

I agree with this completely. When I mission I usually work for a Command agent that while 90 some percent of the time hands out kill missions just when I start to lapse into mindless boredom my agent will hand me something new, usually a courier.

Even though its a courier mission it's a welcome break and change from the constant droll of killing things. Loosing that variety is meh in my book.

Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:49:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Kiyohime Ronuken
I could point out that the risk in W-Space is even higher for potential invaders. No way to know how many people are logged off in there. One small pos could mean 3-4 people or 100+ alts logged off ready to fight - or even logged IN.

The risk for the invader is being stranded, cut off and trapped with loss of all ships and pods. Sure it happens all the time that a few invaders crush a small pos and set up shop themselves. Then again sometimes big groups get their guts stomped out wholesale. That's why it's RISK not 'certainty of utter doom'.

Anyhow - you're not talking risk vs reward. You're talking about changing the DEGREE of risk already present.


You have obviously never been in W-space before. Please don't comment on **** you know nothing about. Speculating gets this game nowhere. And if you have been in there, you obviously have never been in any sore of engagement there.

The Redman
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:51:00 - [164]
 

Dear CCP,
People in this thread and many many other threads keep telling you the same thing. Your screwing up the risk vs reward system from Hi-Sec to 0.0. People have to invest their own isk in their 0.0 space, fight and lose much more in 0.0 than people who live in Hi-Sec. Yet your boosts/nerfs do the exact opposite of what players need/want.

Since these changes point to CCP being disconnected or no longer playing their own game, I will put this into a RL relationship.
6 months ago: running sanctums/havens for 5-6hrs = 2 fleet fit BS's
now: running same sanctums/havens for 8hrs = 2 fleet fit BS's


THE ISSUE, your customers also have a value system that you might not be considering.

This inherent value system is called the RL Free Time vs EVE ISK Time. 8 hrs of shooting red crosses so I have just 2 ships for the next great EVE 0.0 war is not worth 8 hrs of -> my <- RL Free Time.

I know there are plenty of people who will disagree because they are students or they only work part time so feel free, but shooting red crosses for 8 hrs is not fun. PVP is the fun in this game.

SOLUTION 01, stop making it harder for honest 0.0 players who have to GRIND AWAY ALL F#%$@*G DAY SHOOTING RED CROSSES JUST TO AFFORD THE OPPORTUNITY TO PVP FOR 2 hrs and lose those ships.

SOLUTION 02, allow everyone to cheat so we can all have bots like the Russians and not have to waste our lives away shooting red crosses.

SOLUTION 03, ban all the botting in game which MIGHT rebalance the game on it's own.

SOLUTION 04, stay the course and continue to lose players interests after around 2-3 years...

Or you can ignore all of this? Your making 15.00 pr mo for what 300,000 subscribers = 4.5 million pr month, so heh, does it really matter???

Ghurthe
Posted - 2011.05.16 17:56:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Carola Kessler
Edited by: Carola Kessler on 16/05/2011 17:32:23
I'm also worried about the Change not longer beeing able to see Pilots NPC and Faction standings via Info:

•Information on a pilot's standings towards NPC corporations is no longer visible from 'Show Info'. You now see the standings information between you and the other pilot and the factions you each belong to.

This will crush Recruiting or make it ways harder as it is now for some Corps have Standing requirements in their agenda this change i think will have also an huge impact oon new and allready existing Corps within the Game. Sad


Lol Just get their limited API keys like EVERY OTHER CORP IN EVE.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:02:00 - [166]
 

Geez people, don't you get it?

This is yet another dumbing down of the game pushed out by the Marketing Dept of CCP. They have run numerous studies and have figured out that making the game more profitable for high sec runners, and making the game simpler will increase their subscription base. This is all about making more money.

Sure, they will lose a certain percentage of players who love the complexity and difficulty of Eve, but no good little corporation cares a whit about its customers, other than when more leave than join.

CCP is just proving they are just like Blizzard.
Marketers and the other suits in the company, who in general are not that bright, have deemed the company would be better off making Eve "WoW in space".

Let's see:

Walking in spacestations: Caters to the kiddies
Buffing high sec: Caters to the kiddies and carebears
Spending all kinds of programming cycles on graphics: Caters to the kiddies
Doing everything in their power to wipe out huge alliances in 0.0: Angers the smart players who create and maintain such huge social constructs, but caters to the less intelligent, less diligent griefers who can charge through looking for an easy kill.

I run an industrial division for a 0.0 corp, and I spend half my time on spreadsheets. I don't particularly enjoy it, but it is a necessary part of working with others to create something within a larger framework. That is fun for me, the satisfaction of building something from nothing.

But the majority of people in the world are not bright nor patient enough to play the game that way. It is "too hard, I want to just blow stuff up and get get lots of shiny ships really easy". These are the people that CCP is swinging the game towards. They have recognized there is a larger potential subscription base there.

San Guine
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:05:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Making SoE combat missions inaccessible to members of Gallente and Minmatar FW is kind of suboptimal. Please change the division of the Gicodel agent to Security.

Additionally, please revisit some of the corporations that now have no combat agent at all. That's seriously suboptimal.



+1 Don't force my Gallentian derričre into Caldari space since that will be the only lvl 4 combat agent left ( highsec that is) for SoE.

Chia Mulholland
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:07:00 - [168]
 

Yes! For too long have I been afraid to leave 0.0 and live in Empire. All the rules with Concord and what-not seemed so complicated. But the recent Sanctum nerf and this mission buff might finally give me the courage to make the jump.

Thank you, CCP!

Ghurthe
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:07:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Ghurthe on 16/05/2011 18:09:16
Originally by: San Guine
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Making SoE combat missions inaccessible to members of Gallente and Minmatar FW is kind of suboptimal. Please change the division of the Gicodel agent to Security.

Additionally, please revisit some of the corporations that now have no combat agent at all. That's seriously suboptimal.




+1 Don't force my Gallentian derričre into Caldari space since that will be the only lvl 4 combat agent left ( highsec that is) for SoE.


Can anyone say 'New Mission Hub'?

Psycho Therapy
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:08:00 - [170]
 

Originally by: Chaotic Dude
Originally by: Scandal Caulker
Originally by: Psycho Therapy
The agent quality change should help spread players out from the current mission hubs, too, which is going to be good for the lag issue.


No it won't. Human beings are lazy creatures of habit. They will not move from their mission hub unless there is a very good reason to do so.



It will create new hubs, because Lvl 4 Q20 Agents in a 0.5 System pay more than in a 0.9 system :)


Yep, except that a good number of mission runners will refuse to move to 0.5, because they don't want to deal with the choice of flying their pve ships into lowsec on missions, or frequently waiting out 4 hour timers.

Psycho Therapy
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:10:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Kno Bodees*****
Originally by: VCBee 2fast2furious
EVE Online 2011: We don't ever want our players to leave highsec!


Here is a news flash... THEY DON'T WANT TO lEAVE HI-SEC!!!!!

Guess What else? IT'S THEIR GAME!!!! They can do what they want to do. Am I correct? Is this the "Eve sandbox" or does that only apply when it works for the so called "end game" player? Which after all of the non-sense that has come to light regarding botting and RMTing I'm not so sure I want to be a part of the "null sec lie". (I left the "f" out on purpose)

Hi-sec players are what keeps the lights on at CCP. This allows us to have our silly little wars over moons in 0.0. Let them play as they like, and lets get back to the dangerous practice of ratting in our super carriers, in a cyno jammed and gate camped system.

I have never seen such a whiny group of sissies in my life. ugh





hahaha. bingo. Dude, you rock.

Dalton Vanadis
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:10:00 - [172]
 

So I'm going to diverge from the vast majority of people in this thread.

First, I think a company filled with some of the most intelligent people I have ever seen is aware of what they are doing.

Second, I think that they are perhaps scaring the pants off everyone, not intentionally, but because they haven't divulged the specifics of their plans for the future so no one outside CCP is getting the full picture. It may be a bit out of context for the general player.

All we see is that here's a 0.0 change, here's an agent change, and the conclusion is that the world is ending. I find it much more likely that CCP is in the process of a major rebalance of a lot of aspects of EVE, these are just two parts, and the seeming imbalance between the various areas of games will become much clearer soon enough.

Additionally, I have no particular issue with this change, especially if they take Mittens up on the feature abandonment issues and keep a team of people monitoring and tweaking everything every so often based on feedback and response and not leaving it high and dry. I don't think this change is by any means, the end of the story on rebalancing and updating EVE even in the next few months, I'll give my favorite game company the benefit of the doubt and wait and see.

I'd also like to point out that, while I live in a wh and enjoy it immensely, I definitely see the value in just being able to play a game, chillax after a hard day at work and not have to worry quite so much about some flaming douche ruining the fun with me and my friends all while still feeling like I'm am accomplishing something. It is nice to be able to get out and make money and not have to check 360 every few seconds.

If anything, after this announcement and the response to it, I should think that a more valuable thing that CCP can do at this point is start up a jump page like they did for incursion and start dropping video dev blogs and updates and thoughts and what not again. I think that it does a world of good to be able to see where the train of thought is headed, what changes to expect, what goodies, etc. And I think it might tone down the rants of 0.0 crazies a bit.

Just my exceptionally long 2 cents...

JitaPriceChecker2
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:12:00 - [173]
 

This is ******ed CCCP.

You are buffing missions while nerfing ninja salvagers , the only counter for super safe lvl4s.


Kiyohime Ronuken
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:13:00 - [174]
 

Which part was I wrong about? Is there no risk for those invading WH space?

POSes never get lost in WH space?

Bigger alliances never stumble upon WHs and blow up the inhabitants for lols?

Small groups set up shop in WHs and make isk?

Big attacking gangs get WHs collapsed on them, trapping them inside and get pwnd or suicide out (not everyone's smart enough to bring a separate, non-combat scanning cloakie-ours got decloaked on an 'out' by a can and popped by a dramiel)?

None of those ever happens? I've been there when they have ALL happened but OK.

Sorry - not to hijack the thread but don't presume to know where I have and have not been nor what I have or have not done.

If your experience is different FINE - post it as such. There's no need to be rude.

Care Bear King
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:16:00 - [175]
 

Love the changes, of course.

In a moment of selfless honesty,
I'll suggest doing this instead:

For all agents (including R&D):
High Sec Agents: Access as -20; Pay as -20
Low Sec Agents: Access as -20; Pay as +20
Null Sec Agents: Access as -20; Pay as 0

Note: Keep the impact of system security on
payouts or everyone will move to 1.0 systems.

It seems like you're missing a golden
opportunity to slip in long needed changes.

Valora Asatru
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:17:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: CCP Molock
We had to change a few other things to suit the division overhaul, all having to do with the seven "Connections" skills from the Social skill set (i.e., Financial Connections, Political Connections, etc.). These skills each granted a +5% yield per skill level to Loyalty Point payout for each of 5 or 6 divisions; in total, it was possible, with all seven skills maxed out, to gain a 10% LP boost for every division.


Shouldn't that be 50% LP boost, if all skills where maxed out as you say?
Migth wanna change it to 50%, or 10% per lvl trained in all skills.

Sade Onyx
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:19:00 - [177]
 

oooh, the TEARS from 0.0 residents... lol, oh much I love them!

0.0 residents basically have access to the easiest money in the game and they beat their chests in frustration and cry to their mummys (or ccp) because High-sec residents (who make up most of the population) gets the most incredibly tiny buff to their income.


Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:20:00 - [178]
 

Your very own economist said during the latest fanfest that there is an imbalance between faucets and sinks. So naturally, you guys buff level 4 payouts.

Man, I don't even know anymore...

Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:22:00 - [179]
 

Quote:
-20% effective quality to access
+20% effective quality for payouts


So much for this being a nerf; this is a massive boost to missions in regards to ease of access and cash payouts.

Where's a reduction in quality as particular agents get farmed to death? Where are the game systems changes to lock down cash flow which is, by your tacit admission, completely out of control? How will these changes make it more profitable to live in 0.0 or low security space than living in high security space? Where is Risk/Reward?

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.05.16 18:24:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Makumba Aki
Originally by: El'Niaga
I believe the scanner change will end up being an even greater detriment to the game than the agent change in empire. Already you have no risk for most pirates roaming 0.0 and you just made their job easier so they don't have to use scan probes etc. In the end combined with other 0.0 changes in recent times the end result is going to be fewer people playing in 0.0, and ultimately fewer people playing EVE if this continues.

Its claimed that Jump Bridges were to little risk for the reward. Yet the covert cloaking device used by many toons as young as just a couple months has absolutely no downturns. There is no way to turn off an enemies, he has complete control to pick and choose when and where he will attack. A skilled covert pilot can easily avoid any gate camps which are meaningless. If defenders form up they cloak and hide waiting til the defenders leave, before once again picking a soft target that has no chance of survival. Yet CCP takes not measure towards ending this. Instead they give an additional tool for these pilots to grief other players by lowering scan times and removing the need for probes.

I tell you I see dangerous signs that EVE is getting ready to leave its golden age, the changes are counterproductive to getting more people to move to 0.0. There is almost no reason to considering the risk compared to the rewards. SOE used focus groups to form the NGE, and it ended up being an utter disaster for SWG. I fear that CCP should seriously reconsider what they are doing and the path they are taking. Once they cross the line there is no taking it back. Once you lose the people you can't roll stuff back and hope they return, they've already lost trust in you. Don't be like SOE looking over at the mythical greener field, then find you burned your field to try to get over the fence and then failed to climb the fence.


HTFU or leave 0.0.. honestly.. it is on thing to complain about broken risk vs. rewards ratio... but complaining about high risk space being high risk is kinda stupid...


Ignorance on your part no doubt, specially considering that the last 0.0 changes to anomalies made about half of it worth less than high sec missioning. This will only make it worse. If you want higher risk, where is the higher reward?

It's not there. For the risk you want it should easily have rewards ten times that of High Sec empire and it doesn't.

The changes to anomalies, and now to scanners are pretty devastating to casual players. Unfortunately for you and CCP is that casual players make up a majority of the player base. So in the end if you make it to hard for them to advance they quit playing then the game and CCP will no longer be able to sustain themselves at current staffing or development levels. CCP is mostly using EVE as a testbed for WoD these days anyway, very little effort is being put towards any real new features etc, most of it is window dressing and tweaking of existing mechanics to create a different environment because that's cheaper than putting in new ships/modules/etc to close the gaps and holes in the game.

Be careful what you wish for, because you might get it....


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