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Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:35:00 - [61]
 

What's all the fuss about? Is this really going to boost mission running income significantly? Seems like minor changes to me.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:36:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Tonto Auri on 16/05/2011 13:37:05
Originally by: Regat Kozovv
Does this mean we could be seeing better mission variety now that many of the categories have been combined? If so, it might be something to mention, the feel of "added content" will be nice. =)

It means strictly opposite. There will be no variety at all. Combat agents will only offer combat missions, etc.
Lame change, CCP... :/
People listen to radio, because they want to be entertained. Missions are the same. The probability to get unwanted mission is both enjoyable and blamed, but many would agree that having this probability is a relief in endless repetitive grind, even if just for a "oh, damn <click decline>" moment.

Originally by: Dirk Decibel
What's all the fuss about? Is this really going to boost mission running income significantly? Seems like minor changes to me.

It'll reduce income by about 5-7%. The real change is a wider choice of agents, which would end in spreading population, if even a bit.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:36:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
Perhaps start a few wars.


Please dont make such posts, at CCP they actually might believe it (dont say you actually believe it).

Rashmika Clavain
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:38:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Rashmika Clavain on 16/05/2011 13:39:03


Originally by: Imnar Blade


LP rewards are about to go through the roof. If my calcs are right, 10k LP for a top end level 4 in a 0.5 system and 15k LP with divisional connections 5 and a minimum (for something like an extravaganza) of 5000/7500 in high sec.



Actually from what I've read recently from the test server, previous level 5 missions churning out 80k LP are now giving 65k LP.

So I doubt you'll be getting more out LP of this... If anything it'll be a slight reduction (percentage change on thousands instead of tens of thousands).

EDIT: the chappie had the "new" LP skill trained to level 5.

Kronos
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:38:00 - [65]
 

I think the changes are good. I do not understand those moaning about 0.0 being effected. You have players who mission which is gonna be good for them. Those working in 0.0 sec I thought did lvl5 missions, or didnt do missions at all but rat in the roid belts as you can make more ISK that way.

I welcome the changes.

The reason why so many do not like low or null sec is because they do not want to PvP. High sec is good as you dont have to watch your back all the time.

Though one change I would like to see is on wreks that they have 1hr ownership after that they turn blue and then could be scanned down. (this would be good for salvagers profession).

LegendaryFrog
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:39:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: LegendaryFrog on 16/05/2011 13:44:03
Edited by: LegendaryFrog on 16/05/2011 13:41:20
There is nothing wrong with these changes. They help to make EvE a more user-friendly place (by avoiding the issue where a mission runner must look something up on an external webpage in order to understand game content)

That said, as other people have pointed out, it does further highlight the issues with some of the recent 0.0 changes, and the risk/reward balance as a whole.

Leaving out broken tech moon income (which is an alliance level asset, and rarely even reaches the pockets of most 0.0 citizens), ISK making efforts in 0.0 and low-sec space often resemble the same efforts in hi-sec. Missions are comparable to sanctum running and ratting, and activities like PI and Incursions are available across all of these security boundaries.

PI and Incursions are both things that are generally considered to be properly scaled (PI is less profitable in hi-sec than 0.0, incursions favor low-sec which frankly needed the support). However, what is very likely the most often utilized isk-making activity... npc hunting (whether through missions, sanctums, complexes, or belt ratting) does not have the same level of risk/reward balance.

For performing roughly the same activity, the reward for 0.0 citizens should be substantially (not trivially) higher than the reward for the same activity in hi-sec. This is to reflect the greatly increased risk (no concord protection) and effort involved in simply living in 0.0 (The need to fight in wars to capture and defend sov, the logistical effort to build up the infrastructure for months).

Recent hits to average 0.0 citizen life (the anomaly nerf, while not bad in its intention to diversify 0.0 space, was the most egregious of the nerfs to everyday profitability for 0.0 people, and with the decrease in scan time to 10 seconds, there is more risk to go along with the lower reward Shocked) when combined with buffs to high-sec isk making further skew the risk/reward balance in the wrong direction. The potential for vast wealth should be one of the elements that drives the desire to risk the move from high-sec safety to 0.0, in addition to the promise of PvP excitement (0.0 needs its industrialists as much as it needs PvPers)

Popsikle
Minmatar
Caffeine Commodities Company
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:42:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer

You call being forced to run high sec missions for your income when you want to live in 0.0 a refreshing change? (Why would it only be a few weeks btw, at the very least it will be many months, since the 0.0 boost wont come before winter expansion). And how is it the fault of the 0.0 leaders that CCP nerfs the income of their members?

I still am not sure if you are just trolling or if you are serious, I hope for your sake that you are trolling, since it doesnt make any sense what you say.



Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..... Correct me if I a wrong but Agent payouts are going up across the board, to +20 payouts...

Considering the pool of agents now in 0.0, most with not so good quality. All of those agents just got a huge buff. Most people runnign missions in high sec already try and use +20 agents because they are a lot easier to find, so comparatively this is a ****** buff to 0.0 than high sec. It really screws low-sec tho....

Perky C
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:44:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Vaju Katru
Put all LvL4 in lowsec.


As long as all Lvl5 agents get moved to high sec

Ghurthe
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:45:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Perky C
Originally by: Vaju Katru
Put all LvL4 in lowsec.


As long as all Lvl5 agents get moved to high sec


+1

Ghurthe
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:47:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Furb Killer

You call being forced to run high sec missions for your income when you want to live in 0.0 a refreshing change? (Why would it only be a few weeks btw, at the very least it will be many months, since the 0.0 boost wont come before winter expansion). And how is it the fault of the 0.0 leaders that CCP nerfs the income of their members?

I still am not sure if you are just trolling or if you are serious, I hope for your sake that you are trolling, since it doesnt make any sense what you say.



Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..... Correct me if I a wrong but Agent payouts are going up across the board, to +20 payouts...

Considering the pool of agents now in 0.0, most with not so good quality. All of those agents just got a huge buff. Most people runnign missions in high sec already try and use +20 agents because they are a lot easier to find, so comparatively this is a ****** buff to 0.0 than high sec. It really screws low-sec tho....


They're all getting changed to +20 however with only one LP gain skill the LP gain from skills drops from +50% to +25% effectively dropping lp gain from agents anywhere from 0 - 25%

Quality 20 agents that already exist will be hit the hardest, anything over quality -20 will see a slight drop in LP, and roughly a minus 10% LP gain on Quality 0, sooo Quality 12-13 agents should expect to see 12-15% less LP.

Just some guesses.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:49:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Kronos
I think the changes are good. I do not understand those moaning about 0.0 being effected. You have players who mission which is gonna be good for them. Those working in 0.0 sec I thought did lvl5 missions

No.
Quote:
or didnt do missions at all but rat in the roid belts as you can make more ISK that way

And no.


what used to be more ISK was anomalies (not belt ratting, that is worse isk/hour in almost all space, not to mention it can only support one person, maybe 2 in a few systems), but they were heavily nerfed.

Mebrithiel Ju'wien
Moira.
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:52:00 - [72]
 

I dislike the compartmentalism of Agents considering there was a great variety before.

Don't change what variety we have. It will only contribute in making the game seem more directed and blocky. That opaque-ness in chances of mission variety helps keep the agent running a little more diverse and therefore interesting.

As to the relocation and more even distribution of agents - I hope you spread the higher agents about nicely. Mission hubs hurt the game by creating unnecessarily high traffic and un-natural market hubs. A more wider spread would allow these hubs to redistribute themselves more logically.

Degasser Nacs
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:54:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Degasser Nacs on 16/05/2011 13:55:03
Originally by: Furb Killer
Making a ****load of divisions and forcing people to check on the internet what each type is, is not how you want to make a hard game.

Originally by: Lt Pizi

while i dont run missions anymore ... i notice a trend to simplify eve alot ...
wich conserns me a bit

Unfortunately alot of the difficulty of eve comes from having to find out how to play from other sources rather than the game itself, like Furb mentioned. That gives an advantage to people who know how to do research. There is still a massive amount of info to absorb on how things work though even if its spoon fed. No other game compares with that.

Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:57:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Popsikle
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..... Correct me if I a wrong but Agent payouts are going up across the board, to +20 payouts...

No connection skills. No effective quality. Think again.
Before, you were able to pimp +12 agent to +30 or so, now it's always +20 no matter what you do.

Shepard Book
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:00:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Vaju Katru
Put all LvL4 in lowsec.


I have to agree with Vaju in a sence. This is a huge buff to high sec and does throw risk vs reward out the window IMO. I would go as far to say put level 3s in low sec and level 4s and 5s in 0.0 Moving every agent in game to 20 quality no matter the sec status is not wise to me. I can see the botmonger wheels turning already.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:07:00 - [76]
 

If you are looking into the possibility of reshuffling some agents, I would suggest you take mission variation into account while doing it. Not everyone hates the variation the old system offered, so it would be nice, if there would be intentionally made locations where agents of the same level but different division could be found in the same station/system.

Basicly this would be catering to players who want to do different types of missions for a short period of time to add variation to the grind. With some mixed division hubs they wouldn't have to travel far to be able to do that. I think this is an important consideration, since the old system catered in a limited way to more play styles in the same location, but the new system doesn't because the agent distribution is inherited instead of being designed for the new system from the start.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:11:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Popsikle
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..... Correct me if I a wrong but Agent payouts are going up across the board, to +20 payouts...

No connection skills. No effective quality. Think again.
Before, you were able to pimp +12 agent to +30 or so, now it's always +20 no matter what you do.


You did read that they're replacing the connections skills, right? And now you only need to train up one rank 2 skill, instead of about four rank 1 skills? I, for one, will be getting back 1 million SP to redistribute, and will only be spending 512k of it on social.

Bonnie Beaver
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:13:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Popsikle
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..... Correct me if I a wrong but Agent payouts are going up across the board, to +20 payouts...

No connection skills. No effective quality. Think again.
Before, you were able to pimp +12 agent to +30 or so, now it's always +20 no matter what you do.


devblog says you could gain 10%/level bonus LP from the old connection books, because there were 2 books covering each division.
the new books provide 10% more LP/level to boot at twice the training time.
so now all agents give the same base LP ammount of +20 agenst, regardless of their location

Popsikle
Minmatar
Caffeine Commodities Company
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:15:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Popsikle
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..... Correct me if I a wrong but Agent payouts are going up across the board, to +20 payouts...

No connection skills. No effective quality. Think again.
Before, you were able to pimp +12 agent to +30 or so, now it's always +20 no matter what you do.


But that doesn't nerf 0.0 any more than it does high sec, instead it makes all the 0.0 agents +20 which overall increase the quality of agents (even taking the +30 down to +20 into consideration) available in 0.0...

Ghurthe
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:16:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Bonnie Beaver
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Popsikle
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..... Correct me if I a wrong but Agent payouts are going up across the board, to +20 payouts...

No connection skills. No effective quality. Think again.
Before, you were able to pimp +12 agent to +30 or so, now it's always +20 no matter what you do.


devblog says you could gain 10%/level bonus LP from the old connection books, because there were 2 books covering each division.
the new books provide 10% more LP/level to boot at twice the training time.
so now all agents give the same base LP ammount of +20 agenst, regardless of their location


I'm not sure about that. All the people on sisi are saying there are changes in LP gain from all the agents they see. Now it could be that they played with the security status based gains and screwed it all up.

Lilith Evangiline Testu
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:18:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Lilith Evangiline Testu on 16/05/2011 14:19:47
How much more like WOW can we make the game YAY for making it simple and easier! Let's make it WOW in space. Go CCP!

Seriously guys, this is a bad Idea, Been playing for 6 years and your just dumbing down Eve. Too many bad Ideas from the guys in charge I think. Why don't you focus on things that actually NEED to be fixed.

Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:19:00 - [82]
 

Really like these changes from a solo standpoint. Although, while crowding in mission hubs is annoying however, less mmo like? Maybe people will cluster elsewhere but since the majority of pve is solo, I'm not sure how speading out the player base is positive. Also, may result in less conflict/wardecs?

Also, it will be interesting to see where the trade hubs move to. Assuming .5 systems due to truesec.

Katsu Masanori
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:20:00 - [83]
 

I read the blog and it left some questions. These changes remind me of the changes implemented after some business decides to implement Edward Deming's ideas to streamline a business.
1. Will the number of stations and syetems eventually be reduced due to the reduction in the number of agents?
2. Will the profiles of the agents be changed to be more like the R&D agents profiles that state which types of skills a player would need to use that agent?
3. Will the 4 hour wait after decling a mission still apply? I decline them due to not doing factions kills against Caldari, Gallente, Amarr and Minmatar and some agents give those faction kills and I have to decline them.
4. Will this game become like WOW and we will now "Level Up"?



Bonnie Beaver
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:21:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Bonnie Beaver on 16/05/2011 14:22:17
Originally by: Ghurthe
Originally by: Bonnie Beaver
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Popsikle
recursion

is

funn

I'm not sure about that. All the people on sisi are saying there are changes in LP gain from all the agents they see. Now it could be that they played with the security status based gains and screwed it all up.


Having changed the base LP amounts is very well possible.
the new system however does not provide any changes/dissadvantages.
i have the 2 connection skills affecting security agents trained to 4(political and military connections).
from what i understood, tomorrow i will get back the SP put in those and 2 new "security connections" books.
with the same SP i get back, i can get the new skill back to lvl 4, giving me the same bonuses on the l4/q20 i was already using in lowsec, unless they did change base LP.

Daenna Chrysi
Amarr
Omega Foundry Unit
Shadows Of Betrayal
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:23:00 - [85]
 

This is interesting, the connections skills being redone effect the LP given by missions. It has no effect on the agent quality.

What the agent quality change does, is that being a ninja becomes that much harder, as people are free to spread out to systems that are not on ninja's radar. After all, even the -20q agents will now be +20q, completely reshuffling where people run their missions.

But I see no mention of the removal of the Negotiation or diplomacy skill, or any other of the major social skills, but we will see soon enough the effects of this patch. Also there is no mention of removing of the effect of system security, so the lvl4 agent in null should still be better than the ones in highsec, there now will just be more useful ones.

Justice Starcatcher
Volatile Nature
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:23:00 - [86]
 

Hurray for agent division consolidation, this was a cosmetic aspect of agents. It did mirror real life where different divisions would encroach on each other. But, it just complicated player activity for no value. Mission runners would learn which agents gave 100% of the mission type they wanted, and thatís all they would do.

Hurray for agent quality simplification/Boo for no dynamic quality. All this did was funnel people to the same agents. As with agent division, players would grind to reach the perfect agent and never look back. Itís unfortunate that CCP did not choose to go with a dynamic system.

No I donít expect a mad rush from the core mission running centers. Natural inertia will prevent that. But, there are natural pressures to push people out. Corp office rental for one will move some small mission corps out to remote areas. I canít see how this is bad; anything that gives choice to the player is good.

My take on this is CCP is cleaning up some old legacy mechanics rather than a conspiracy to buff empire space. I wish they had included dynamic agents, but I see this as another sign that this change was not part of a bigger conspiracy. It fits with the theory that the scope of this project was limited to cleaning up useless and constricting mechanics. This also explains why dynamic agents were not included. If the project scope was small I would be reluctant to throw something huge into the pot. The current results are fairly predictable, dynamic agents could turn into a **** storm. I suspect cleaning up the agent system was done in a way to make it easier to add dynamic agents or other neat ideas in the future.

There will be nostalgia for the old system, just like the quaintness of using corn cobs instead of TP. But, I prefer the later.

Selpy
Caldari
Penumbra Military Industrial Complex
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:23:00 - [87]
 

Is it just me, or does it are they seriously dumbing Eve down these days? The removal of learning skills (and the reward/penalties associated with doing that right/wrong). Now the buffing of the agent system to make it easier to get agents, removing all need to plan and choose agents carefully (removing the strategy aspect) and giving players max rewards for any agent.

I dunno, but to me, it looks like Eve is going the way of society in general where those at the top dumb stuff down and lower standards to cater to the lowest common denominator, removing the rewards for excellence, and adapting the counter-Darwin motto of "no one left behind" rather than sticking with the "only the strongest survive" model it's always followed.

WisdomPanda
Goatriders Horde
The Scapegoats
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:26:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Tonto Auri
Originally by: Popsikle
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm..... Correct me if I a wrong but Agent payouts are going up across the board, to +20 payouts...

No connection skills. No effective quality. Think again.
Before, you were able to pimp +12 agent to +30 or so, now it's always +20 no matter what you do.


But that doesn't nerf 0.0 any more than it does high sec, instead it makes all the 0.0 agents +20 which overall increase the quality of agents (even taking the +30 down to +20 into consideration) available in 0.0...


The point being that you can't hold sov in the systems with said agents. You will find 90% of the issue of the nullsec nerfs revolves around space you are paying for being totally worthless, now even more so.

When mining the rarest ore in the game in the lawless regions barely matches the income of a decent high-sec mission runner facing zero risk, you know something is messed up. The point of nullsec is to be high risk, high reward. (According to CCP) If it is not high-reward, it shouldn't be high risk. If it is high-risk and low-reward, you might as well just stay docked until the next fleet/gang leaves and mission in fluffy/cuddly high-sec to replace any losses that might not be covered.

That's my 2 Yuan at least.

Degasser Nacs
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:28:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Zifrian
Really like these changes from a solo standpoint. Although, while crowding in mission hubs is annoying however, less mmo like? Maybe people will cluster elsewhere but since the majority of pve is solo, I'm not sure how speading out the player base is positive. Also, may result in less conflict/wardecs?

Also, it will be interesting to see where the trade hubs move to. Assuming .5 systems due to truesec.


How many people in trade hubs actually care about each other? Being "less mmo like" when people were playing "solo" already is a bit contradicting. Spreading out to smaller areas however gives a way to actually build a community, and gets people used to the locals beyond the usual greifers and bots. Lastly, as you mentioned, the market competition would let new traders from all over take a stab at the business.

Degasser Nacs
Posted - 2011.05.16 14:35:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Degasser Nacs on 16/05/2011 14:35:24
Originally by: Selpy
Is it just me, or does it are they seriously dumbing Eve down these days? [...] Eve is going the way of society in general where those at the top dumb stuff down and lower standards to cater to the lowest common denominator, removing the rewards for excellence, and adapting the counter-Darwin motto of "no one left behind" rather than sticking with the "only the strongest survive" model it's always followed.

Originally by: Lilith Evangiline Testu

How much more like WOW can we make the game YAY for making it simple and easier! Let's make it WOW in space. Go CCP!

Read my previous post on this and comment? Confused


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