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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.12 21:59:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 12/06/2011 22:09:33

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 10/06/2011 00:13:17
[...]Also, bitcoin current traded value is over 28$.
[...] maybe, "bubble" ? Twisted Evil

And it's down to barely over 20$ now in just 3 days Twisted Evil

http://twitter.com/#!/bitcoineconomy

P.S. TINFOILHAT TIME ! It's a conspiracy by ATI to sell more video cards !
LaughingLaughingLaughing

Dirk Decibel
Posted - 2011.06.13 12:01:00 - [62]
 

How does one even create bitcoins?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.13 15:54:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Dirk Decibel
How does one even create bitcoins?

You "mine" for them, preferably using your GPU.
If you want to know how, one starts by following at least one of the zillion relevant links posted in this thread.
Or by googling "bitcoin mining".

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.06.13 16:50:00 - [64]
 

I didnt actually click any links because there was too many and one was a fake youtube link (guess you have a keylogger now).

Still dont get any of this, so basically by using the internet a person can make money but it isnt legal? You mean like botting and RMT?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:05:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
I didnt actually click any links because there was too many and one was a fake youtube link (guess you have a keylogger now).

If you're referring to any "youtu.be" links, that's a google feature, not a highjack attempt. Try to keep up with the news, it's one year and a half old.

Quote:
Still dont get any of this, so basically by using the internet a person can make money but it isnt legal? You mean like botting and RMT?

You got it partially right and a lot wrong.
For starters, it's quite legal. At least for now, and in most of the world. If anything should change, you should be able to hear about it. Then again, you weren't aware of youtu.be either so... meh.
And you don't get "money" in the sense of "real-life government-backed fiat currency" - you get Bitcoins (BTC), which is a politically and geographically agnostic internet-only crypto-currency with a reasonably decent potential for anonymity.
If you choose to exchange BTC for any RL currency, you can only do so if you find somebody willing to do the reverse direction exchange with you, and you can use one of the trading sites to find them, and agree on some RL money transfer method while the site holds the BTC in "escrow".

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.06.13 17:47:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Kalle Demos
I didnt actually click any links because there was too many and one was a fake youtube link (guess you have a keylogger now).

If you're referring to any "youtu.be" links, that's a google feature, not a highjack attempt. Try to keep up with the news, it's one year and a half old.

Quote:
Still dont get any of this, so basically by using the internet a person can make money but it isnt legal? You mean like botting and RMT?

You got it partially right and a lot wrong.
For starters, it's quite legal. At least for now, and in most of the world. If anything should change, you should be able to hear about it. Then again, you weren't aware of youtu.be either so... meh.
And you don't get "money" in the sense of "real-life government-backed fiat currency" - you get Bitcoins (BTC), which is a politically and geographically agnostic internet-only crypto-currency with a reasonably decent potential for anonymity.
If you choose to exchange BTC for any RL currency, you can only do so if you find somebody willing to do the reverse direction exchange with you, and you can use one of the trading sites to find them, and agree on some RL money transfer method while the site holds the BTC in "escrow".


I live in a cave, all my RL news comes from yahoo and most of the articles get repeated every year.

Wouldnt it just be easier to RMT in games than do this bitcoin thingy

I did actually hear something about this on yahoo a week ago or so, never really got moist by it

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.13 18:21:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos

I live in a cave, all my RL news comes from yahoo and most of the articles get repeated every year.



Search sites have become advertisement funnels. They are notorious for directing topics they think you are interested in to you and keeping you in your own little self created informational prison. Break free!

Originally by: Kalle Demos

Wouldnt it just be easier to RMT in games than do this bitcoin thingy



EULAs

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.13 22:24:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Wouldnt it just be easier to RMT in games than do this bitcoin thingy

Well, for starters, bitcoin mining is a hands-off process once set up and left running, AFAIK breaks no laws yet (not directly anyway, but some users might be technically violating tax laws by not paying any income taxes, so the laws might adapt if the currency becomes popular enough to be more than a curiosity) and is not against any EULAs (so you don't risk banning, the way RMT would).
Then there's that whole no mandatory transaction fees business, relative quickness of fund transfers even at no priority fees, the high granularity (you can pay as little as 0.00000001 BTC if you want, which at current exchange rates would come up as barely 0.00002 cents of an US dollar) and the fact if done right at all steps, grants pretty decent anonymity (so, nothing anybody could really know how to tax).

Kavu
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.06.14 01:35:00 - [69]
 

I live in government housing, and therefore dont pay for electricity.. exploit? hax?, lol


Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.14 03:01:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Kavu
I live in government housing, and therefore dont pay for electricity.. exploit? hax?, lol



These days, as government attempts to give away 'free' things, you end up paying for it with devalued currency.

Alain Kinsella
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.06.14 05:53:00 - [71]
 

I've known about this BTC thing for a few weeks now. Went though something like this many years ago with SETI@Home (before the BOINC client existed) and just not interested in it now.

Besides, if I'm going to 'invest' outside of fiat-land then I prefer 'hard' currencies like Silver coins. Of course, I make my own colloidal silver so I admit to having a practical side to owning those. Cool

Originally by: Akita T
. . .AFAIK breaks no laws yet (not directly anyway, but some users might be technically violating tax laws by not paying any income taxes, so the laws might adapt if the currency becomes popular enough to be more than a curiosity) and is not against any EULAs (so you don't risk banning, the way RMT would).


Governments are being glacial enough with various game currencies (so much so that some of the more successful SL earners voluntarily declare it on taxes to be safe), so I doubt the BTC will be 'fixed' anytime soon. They're more likely to attempt to undermine its value in some way - one quick announcement by Bernake would probably do it, but there's other ways.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.06.14 06:19:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Alain Kinsella
... one quick announcement by Bernake would probably do it ...



Maybe, The Bernake's attempts at moral suasion of late haven't been exactly stabilizing. The Bernake opens his mouth and gold goes up $20, not that I am complaining mind you. Cass Sunstein would likley be more scary to the BTC market.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.14 07:45:00 - [73]
 


Originally by: Dyner
To me this looks like owning some ultra-rare Baseball Cards. You trade that baseball card for cash. New owner does the same...eventually though no one is going to want to trade cash for that baseball card; whole thing collapses.

How about instead of figuring out new ways of making 'Money' we figure out WE-DO-NOT-NEED-MONEY. No one seems to want to do anything just because it would better the species...nooooo, gotta have my money Rolling Eyes


I agree with this sentiment. While BitCoin is an interesting prject, I am not sure it will really take off.

BitCoins are only worth as much as people think they are worth. Sway the minds of the people and ...

But we shall see.

I was thinking of getting a few coins for myself tho, just to sell them a bit later and abuse the system while it lasts for my own personal gain, but I should have known about it a year ago, then I could have amde lots of money now apparently.

Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2011.06.14 09:57:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Vogue on 14/06/2011 10:40:47
Here is a good article about bitcoin 'open source' currency http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/06/virtual-currency.

I think Bitcoin will remain a niche minority way of doing transactions. But what is most exciting about the concept of open source currency is that you don't need clearing banks and other banking functionaries that skim a profit that is of no 'worth' to the wider economy other that helping rich people get richer. In reality a bitcoin mk2 would need some form of endorsement from a corporate entity. But then you have organizations endorse open source software that make a nominal profit but not a over zealous one.

.

This leads me towards another economic concept I read about in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series of books - a political taxonomy based on 'calories'. A regime of economic input and output based on the individuals energy and resource intake balanced against their economic output. If an individual's economic output is far greater, and low in 'waste', than their resource input then they would receive a profitable 'tax' rebate. This could also be scaled to group corporate behavior where organzsations are also subject to the same taxonomy. This system would favor high value knowledge industries. But in fairness these high value enterprises would pay a subsistence charge for necessary raw material supporting organizations that provide electricity and have to consume raw materials.
Systems similar to this will have to be considered when developed economies in decades ahead face a crunch scenario from the current consumer economic model failing due to billions of consumers in the world wanting goods that are far beyond the planets environmental ability to supply the raw materials to sustain such gross consumer consumption. When this paradigm shift occurs economies will retool in a war like mobilization.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.14 12:24:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Vogue
Edited by: Vogue on 14/06/2011 10:40:47
Here is a good article about bitcoin 'open source' currency http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2011/06/virtual-currency.

I think Bitcoin will remain a niche minority way of doing transactions. But what is most exciting about the concept of open source currency is that you don't need clearing banks and other banking functionaries that skim a profit that is of no 'worth' to the wider economy other that helping rich people get richer. In reality a bitcoin mk2 would need some form of endorsement from a corporate entity. But then you have organizations endorse open source software that make a nominal profit but not a over zealous one.

.

This leads me towards another economic concept I read about in Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series of books - a political taxonomy based on 'calories'. A regime of economic input and output based on the individuals energy and resource intake balanced against their economic output. If an individual's economic output is far greater, and low in 'waste', than their resource input then they would receive a profitable 'tax' rebate. This could also be scaled to group corporate behavior where organzsations are also subject to the same taxonomy. This system would favor high value knowledge industries. But in fairness these high value enterprises would pay a subsistence charge for necessary raw material supporting organizations that provide electricity and have to consume raw materials.
Systems similar to this will have to be considered when developed economies in decades ahead face a crunch scenario from the current consumer economic model failing due to billions of consumers in the world wanting goods that are far beyond the planets environmental ability to supply the raw materials to sustain such gross consumer consumption. When this paradigm shift occurs economies will retool in a war like mobilization.



What is really neede is a way to assess current resources, and then make and economy based on that. This do need organization and some controlling enity. Current banks and governments are no good canditates for this mine you, since their values are not compatible.

We need to get over this whole idea that we are "consumers" and start making things to last, and making things and systems more efficient.

Really, we need some changes in our value system first of all we we hope to make any lasting changes for the betterment of mankind.

Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2011.06.14 13:30:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Vogue on 14/06/2011 13:31:31
I watched all of the Adam Curtis 'Century Of The Self' which has painted the modern political culture as bonkers. Politicians picked up the play book of corporations that involves bracketing individuals into marketing groups. Recently they have used a wicked ploy of pitching products and services in a way that appeals to current 'get ahead in life' individualist desires of consumers. Politicians used these tactics with focus groups but created a total quagmire of conflicts: A: 'Do you want better public services' -> Yes B:'Do you want to pay less taxes' - Yes. Where a corporate product is a self contained entity politics for the masses most certainly is not. What is depressing is that presidents and prime ministers believed their own conflicting soundbites when their holy polling numbers went up. And now ultimately politicians, the media and the masses are now trapped in a 24/7 glib news mouse wheel. It is like our countries have climbed a societal Maslow's hierarchy of needs and now at the top are trapped in a existential consumerist circus cage.

Many old people in the USA have consumer electronics from decades ago that still work. Then they was really built to last. But white good manufacturers realized that they was selling products that were too reliable in that they would not need to be replaced. So they started making less reliable white goods.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.14 14:25:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Vogue
Edited by: Vogue on 14/06/2011 13:31:31
I watched all of the Adam Curtis 'Century Of The Self' which has painted the modern political culture as bonkers. Politicians picked up the play book of corporations that involves bracketing individuals into marketing groups. Recently they have used a wicked ploy of pitching products and services in a way that appeals to current 'get ahead in life' individualist desires of consumers. Politicians used these tactics with focus groups but created a total quagmire of conflicts: A: 'Do you want better public services' -> Yes B:'Do you want to pay less taxes' - Yes. Where a corporate product is a self contained entity politics for the masses most certainly is not. What is depressing is that presidents and prime ministers believed their own conflicting soundbites when their holy polling numbers went up. And now ultimately politicians, the media and the masses are now trapped in a 24/7 glib news mouse wheel. It is like our countries have climbed a societal Maslow's hierarchy of needs and now at the top are trapped in a existential consumerist circus cage.

Many old people in the USA have consumer electronics from decades ago that still work. Then they was really built to last. But white good manufacturers realized that they was selling products that were too reliable in that they would not need to be replaced. So they started making less reliable white goods.


Its the same here as well. My grandmother gots lots of "old stuff" that works just fine this day, been working fine since before I was born. My uncle meaning well bought her a new fansy radio/cd player, but it broke after a year... :P

Heck, even my old 8bit NES boots just fine now as well.


I was not aware of 'Century Of The Self'. But I will be in a few hours ;)

Dyner
Minmatar
Midgard Protectorate
Posted - 2011.06.14 14:44:00 - [78]
 

End the Currency; free yourself.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:10:00 - [79]
 


Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2011.06.23 15:25:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: Vogue on 23/06/2011 15:26:01
Apart from the slush monies of actual notes and coins we all deal with electronic money. But both types are endorsed by government central banks. The Euro is unique in having a 500 note that is particularly useful to illegal drug organizations who want to move huge amounts of cash easily. The dollar is the world's international currency. All countries trade with each other in dollars. Though I read China and Russia are doing a trial of trade between themselves in their own currency.

I would not be surprised if the Bitcoin hack was sponsered covertly by a government. 40% of hackers in the USA have been caught and now work covertly under the auspice of the FBI.

For the EURO at least investigations have found that at least 1/3 of all notes in circulation have traces of ******* ugh This will be true for all other western currencies.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.06.23 16:46:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 23/06/2011 16:47:04

And let's not even talk about traces of bodily fluids, colonies of various microorganisms and so on and so forth.
Even "honest" money is literally dirty money (in the "filthy", "lacking hygiene" sense).
I almost always feel the need to wash my hands after having had to physically handle money.
I'd much rather lick my own keyboard than handle money and not wash hands afterwards.

coolzero
Gallente
Posted - 2011.06.23 20:55:00 - [82]
 


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.09.01 23:27:00 - [83]
 

And now it's down to barely over 8$.
At least the hype died down a bit, eh ?

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.09.02 08:25:00 - [84]
 

It's an interesting concept,
it does have it's parallels in the Eve world,
...
buy low sell high ,
mining is not free ,
stuff you do your self is not free
don't trust other people with your coins, keys or computer passwords.

You can make 50BTC each 10 mins - but you are unlikely [impossible] unless you have move than 50% of all the power on the network, you can join a mining pool and help solve blocks for part payment of the ones the pool gets - [ you don't have to join but you can get regular payments then as opposed to 50btc in chunks]

it is not free money as you have to put electricity into mining and at current prices it is better to buy than to mine [depending on your power costs]

you can buy stuff with them , my favourite is Amazon - ok not directly amazon but it works, .... if you have real money it is easier to buy with that than BTC but if you have btc then that works.

it reached a highWink with the silk road press, and people have been scammed [see mybitcoin], , and hacked, and people on the forums are not always who they may appear...

YMMV

but will it continue - I think it will .. there does need to be some changes but the code base is avaialble.

oh yeah - another thing - jumping on the look-a-likes , and clones just because you where not there at the start [see t2 lottery] is just going to cause you grief.

Anea Ruminare
Posted - 2011.09.02 18:05:00 - [85]
 

Akita I may say you are my financial guru atm. When I have a q about economics I will address it in the EVE Forums.

Thank you for existing. And I mean no sarcasm at all. It just thrills me to see such intelligent ppl with enough knowledge to give information.

Trixie Stardust
Posted - 2011.09.04 09:19:00 - [86]
 

Just think..

If you bought $500 worth when it was .05 and sold at $30, that would be $300,000.

Money for nothin' and the chicks for free. Shocked


Aldarica
Spinal Discipline
Posted - 2011.09.04 17:13:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Aldarica on 04/09/2011 17:18:42
Originally by: Akita T
And now it's down to barely over 8$.
At least the hype died down a bit, eh ?

As miner (and ocassional trader) who managed to return whole initial investment in mining rigs I am not worried for as long as I am able to cover my power costs. Which means that BTC value should fall to less than 2$. Which I don't expect to happen - Bitcoin is too good concept, it needs time to grow and I am sure that we are witnessing something really great there.

Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
Posted - 2011.09.04 21:27:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Aldarica
Edited by: Aldarica on 04/09/2011 17:18:42
Originally by: Akita T
And now it's down to barely over 8$.
At least the hype died down a bit, eh ?

As miner (and ocassional trader) who managed to return whole initial investment in mining rigs I am not worried for as long as I am able to cover my power costs. Which means that BTC value should fall to less than 2$. Which I don't expect to happen - Bitcoin is too good concept, it needs time to grow and I am sure that we are witnessing something really great there.


What is so great about it though? It is just another money system, and will not change anything about the human condition.


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