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Condemned Bishop
Posted - 2011.05.13 10:26:00 - [1]
 

In the last weeks I'm seeing a considderable increase of margin trading scams in Jita market. Let me tell you how that works out:

Step 1) A buy order for 10 MIL missiles is set in market at about double the price of any other buy orders (f.e. 650 ISK a piece). With this buy order the minimum amount is set at 10 MIL pieces (all at once). The character that sets the buy order is using the margin trading skill and pays about 76-80% of the cost and then transfers all of his ISK to another account.

Step 2) Multiple sell orders are set in market by an ALT of MAIN with a high price, but lower than 650 ISK a piece (say 400 ISK): 1st sell order with 2 MIL missiles, a 2nd order with 3 MIL missiles, etc etc. Until there are sell orders in market that cover the amount of the buy order (10 MIL missiles).

Step 3) Any unsuspecting player that sees the buy order will figure he can make a gigantic amount of profit. Since he can sell 10 MIL missiles to 650 ISK a piece and can buy the required amount at 400 ISK a piece (which comes to 10 MIL x 250 ISK = Profit, minus the sales tax).

Step 4) Here is the catch. If u have bought the required 10 MIL missiles to fullfill the buy order, your ISK might be running low. Now u want to sell the amount as quick as possible. However, with a right klick and sell, all of a sudden there is no more buy order and your sell order for 10 MIL missiles at 650 ISK suddenly is in the market (with a considderable amount of sales tax). You got screwed.

Step 5: What happened? (see step 1). Since the character that posted the buy order used Margin Trading and only payed 76-80% of the required cost, to completely buy the 10 MIL missiles, he has to pay a further 24-20% of the cost. But since he transfered all of his ISK, he can't pay. In this case the buy order will be deleted (returning the 76-80% of the cost back to his account). His ALT or MAIN has sold 10 MIL missiles and made a quick profit, you are left with 10 MIL missles you can instantly sell at only 300 ISK or will require considderable time to sell at a higher price. (see step 4: you got screwed).

*** How to overcome these type of scams?... (and please Devs... put some work into this!) I think the person that posts the buy order is being overprotected by the game mechanic. He get's all of his ISK (76-80% with margin trading) refunded when he can't fully fullfill the cost of the buy order. The seller that intended to fullfill the buy order with the 10 MIL missiles is the loosing party here. Not only has he overpayed, but also has he payed a considderable amount of sales tax when his 10 MIL missiles were set in market as a sell order.

My solution Idea: protect the seller that wants to fullfill the buy order and screw the buyer (let the 76-80% be payed to the person that fullfills the buy order, since that amount was allready payed when posting it into the market). Let game mechanics calculate what amount is not payed for and return that amount back to the hangar of the selling party. This would be more fair in my opinion...

Also Idea: Show me which character is the buying party! Next to the person that sold me 10 MIL missiles, I have a gank ship wainting to undock for him too... YARRRR!!

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.05.13 10:45:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Condemned Bishop
My solution Idea
What is the actual problem, though? What needs to be solved? Scams are perfectly acceptable, and this one is particularly obvious.
Quote:
protect the seller that wants to fullfill the buy order and screw the buyer
Why? As it is, both the seller and the buyer are fully protected: the seller doesn't lose any goods, and the buyer doesn't overextend his wallet. If the potential seller makes unwise investments and buy stuff that he can't use and can't sell back at a profit, then why should he be protected against his own mistake?

thingy wotsit
Posted - 2011.05.13 11:20:00 - [3]
 

CCP needs to just put the players wallet into a negative. if they want to do anything else with that character they have to pay back the isk, if not all their assets are frozen with the exception of them being allowed to sell them to existing buy orders.

if you can't pay what you authorised, all your ships get impounded until you can pay...

Marchocias
Posted - 2011.05.13 11:33:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: thingy wotsit
CCP needs to just put the players wallet into a negative...


I would make a new char, train margin trading to 5, give the char billions, play the scam on myself with a large volume of something overpriced and worthless, then delete the margin trader. Thereby I would make myself billions.

Every time I do it, I'd be almost doubling my cash.

Elemmingator
Posted - 2011.05.13 11:43:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Tippia
What is the actual problem, though? What needs to be solved? Scams are perfectly acceptable, and this one is particularly obvious.

While scams are a great tax on the unwary, in this case they're exploiting a game mechanic where a player can't be put into debt. A possible compromise would, then, be to scrap the limit on buy orders if you, as the buyer, cannot cover the full amount, and force you to buy the maximum amount you can afford at the price you set.

Using OPs example:
You set a buy order with a minimum amount of 10M units. 85% or so of the value goes into escrow. You empty your account so the amount above escrow can't be covered.
Someone comes to fill your order. You have no more money. Ignoring your minimum amount limit, the money you put into escrow is used to cover the purchase of 8.5M units. The seller keeps 1.5M units, and your order is removed from the market.

That said I wish I'd thought of this first YARRRR!!. I guess that's why I'm not filthy rich.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.05.13 13:31:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Elemmingator
Originally by: Tippia
What is the actual problem, though? What needs to be solved? Scams are perfectly acceptable, and this one is particularly obvious.

While scams are a great tax on the unwary, in this case they're exploiting a game mechanic where a player can't be put into debt.
No, if CCP have not deemed it an exploit, then it is not.
You may not like it, but repeating an old adage: 'If it looks too good to be true......'

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.05.13 13:53:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Elemmingator
in this case they're exploiting a game mechanic where a player can't be put into debt.
Well, aside from the fact that it's not an exploit… yes? What is the problem? Again, the way the skill is set up, both parties are fully protected.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.05.13 13:58:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: De''Veldrin on 13/05/2011 14:01:00
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: thingy wotsit
CCP needs to just put the players wallet into a negative...


I would make a new char, train margin trading to 5, give the char billions, play the scam on myself with a large volume of something overpriced and worthless, then delete the margin trader. Thereby I would make myself billions.

Every time I do it, I'd be almost doubling my cash.


I do love free money.

Edit:
Also, to echo the above, this isn't an exploit - it's a scam, which is not the same thing. Also, it's pretty damned obvious to see.

I can't tell you how many times taking a long hard second look at a potential deal has saved my bacon BEFORE I made a costly mistake (and not just in Eve).

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.05.14 12:26:00 - [9]
 

I think the original buyer was pretty stupid to buy 10 million missiles at 400 isk if they can be bought at 300 million isk. If a buy order only accepts 10 million units, then it's pretty suspicious.

Still, I think if you try to place an immediate sell order for a buy order that does not exist, your failed order should not cost you any tax.

Next step might be to try and sell the missiles at 350 isk apiece and hope somebody else attempts the scam.

I also agree that you should be able to tell who buys your stuff. In fact, you can. Check your wallet.
If any buyer or seller names are ever not listed, I think that should be changed.

Corpus Sanctum
Posted - 2011.05.14 14:10:00 - [10]
 

I am also very carefull that I'm not being scammed. Normally scams are VERY obvious:
1) I'm leeving Eve, I'll double everything u give me scam;
2) Contract scam;
3) Trade window scam.

I do believe the problem with these kind of market scams is that one can't see that one is being scammed. Other than the fact that all the missiles have to be delivered at once (that might explain why he posted this in the first place). The next problem is that the selling party gets no warning when the buy order is automatically deleted and the sell order is put into market.

If the selling person is completely unaware of margin trading, he can't know that the person that posted the buy order has to pay an additional 20% (and that there is a risk that the 20% can't be payed). I think this can be solved by adding an additional column in market where it says how many % of the total ISK of the buy order was downpayed (for example 80%).

Covert Kitty
Amarr
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2011.05.15 06:58:00 - [11]
 

I'm all for scams and such. I certainly don't mind the scam aspect of this at all.

That said this is more of just a broken game mechanic because theres no way to see that the transaction would fail, therefore data collection on market orders cannot be trusted, etc. If a player doesn't have the isk to cover a given order it should either not be visible on the market, or should be automatically deleted as soon as a players wallet drops below its ability to pay for that order. (not the total of all your buy orders, but the total of any single buy order)

Such a change wouldn't effect anyones normal usage of the margin trading skill.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.05.15 12:02:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Covert Kitty


That said this is more of just a broken game mechanic because theres no way to see that the transaction would fail,


Common

Sense

Use it.

Cosmoes
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.15 12:25:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: Covert Kitty


That said this is more of just a broken game mechanic because theres no way to see that the transaction would fail,


Common

Sense

Use it.


In the scammed noobs defense it is very rare to apply common sense like this to a game.

For example lets take low sec belt rats, they sit their orbiting all day. Common sense would say their is a reason for them to be in a belt orbiting like that. There isn't.


and yes the difference is the market is a player interaction rather than NPC. But honestly interacting with a market interface is a hell of a lot like NPC interactions.


Secondly common sense would dictate you can't put up a sell order you don't have the cash to fill.... Yes there is a skill to do that but that's not common sense that's background knowledge.

This is only about common sense once you know that skill exists and how it works. Which sadly is often right after you tried to sell those 10 million missiles.


Oh and one more thing, another thing that has bugged me about this scam is there isn't a way to confirm if it's a scam. I rarely see mechanics where it is impossible to confirm if it's a scam or not. You can always click show info to make it sure it is indeed a CNR (not a regular raven) or count the 0's etc. This the only scam I can think of that is purely run through game mechanics that you can't confirm is a scam.

There are plenty of scams out there where players are talking to each other or aranging banks/lottos or other crazy stuff where you can't confirm if it's a scam but all of those require some sort of direct communication. This is run entirely through game mechanics.



And no I have not nor ever will fall for this scam, I find hauling crap even more boring than mining. Even if it wasn't a scam I probably wouldn't do it.

Katrina Cortez
Posted - 2011.05.16 02:05:00 - [14]
 

I agree that this mechanic is wrong.

1) seller assumes no risk because order cannot be fulfilled
fix = make the account go negative
2) when selling to a buy order items should never go on the market (at least not without a confirmation)
fix = give an error message if transaction cannot be completed

Zan Shiro
Posted - 2011.05.16 02:27:00 - [15]
 

Welcome to eve....not all pvp involves blowing up ships. It has market pvp as well.


How to avoid this....speculate wisely on the markets. Want to know why jita local has hundreds of people, I'd say a decent amount of them are market pvp'ing.

Or don't speculate.

See for all the whiners who say trade has no dangers, here it is. Its actually more costly than ship to ship combat. I have lsot ships, but got insurance and friends to loot my corpse (sometimes...most times this a write off for me lol) so I get some fittings back to offset cost of loss. Market pvp...has no comfort features like this.

Katrina Cortez
Posted - 2011.05.16 03:39:00 - [16]
 

I'm all for the market pvp... I dont care for the scams but it is part of the game and I can accept that. I dont think it is right that a buy order can show up on the market that cant be fulfilled because someone moved their money to another character. If the money isnt there then the order should drop or if its filled then their account should go negative.

Zihora
Posted - 2011.05.16 03:55:00 - [17]
 

I fell for this scam too.

What I did is check the trade hub finder websites (like Jitanomics, etc.) to look for a trade route. I found one from Amarr to Jita, selling those missiles for something like a 400% profit. YAHOO! But, too good to be true. After I sunk all my ISK into buying up missiles and hauling them to Jita (in a small ship thankfully), I found out that the buy order was for a minimum of 10 million units.

I'm kicking myself because I have a Caldari alt whose only purpose is to sit in Jita and check Jita prices on the Jita market. I could have done this easily, it would have spared me all that time and money.

However I'm not so sure it's a scam, it's merely an attempt to corner the market on missiles. Caldari use a lot of missiles, so anyone who corners the market on them in Jita would be sitting pretty. There are enough station traders in Jita to gradually buy up enough missiles to eventually fulfil that order, or at least buy up the missiles that heartbroken haulers sell to the market at a loss.

Scams happen frequently in EVE, and are tolerated if not actively encouraged by CCP. The 'I'm leaving EVE and giving away all my money" seems to be the most popular scam at the moment. Contract scams are popular, and then of course there are the suicide ganging pirates that will pop your ship and steal EVERYTHING, or even do it for lulz.

Want to make money as a trader or hauler?

AVOID JITA.

Jita is a shark pit. If you aren't willing to play the .01 ISK game logging in frequently, and if you don't have several million or a billion to invest (or lose)....then stay away from JIta as much as you can. Stick to the smaller trade hubs like Amarr, Rens, Hek, Diodixie. Your best bet is to find mission hubs with a level 4 agent and buy and sell your stuff to and from mission runners there.

Secondly, use all three of your alts. If you want to do arbitrage/ Intra-regional trading/ speculative hauling, park your alts in trade hubs so you can log in between them and actually double check the prices in the markets before buying, hauling and selling between regions. If you and I did this to begin with (double check first), we wouldn't have fallen for this 'scam'.

Covert Kitty
Amarr
SRS Industries
SRS.
Posted - 2011.05.16 06:13:00 - [18]
 

I have no problem with the scam aspect of this (I've never fallen for this or other scams as I don't really do hauling).

I do have a problem with false data being on the market, anyone that does much on the market should agree with this. The margin trading skill is not the problem, just mandate that any single transaction must have sufficient isk available to exist.

Akilia Kaki
Posted - 2011.08.10 06:41:00 - [19]
 

Solution in fact is quite simple:
- implement right click on sell order - verify order (if buyer doesnt have enought money order should be deleted)

Also got scamed like this, but it was not obvious (item was not overpriced - it was like 50% of regulal sale, profit was only 20%, problem was that this item didn't trade for last 3 month...)

Reeno Coleman
Posted - 2011.08.10 12:35:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Reeno Coleman on 10/08/2011 12:35:42
indeed easy to fix.

just fine players when margin trades fail. the problem is not the scamming itself. its the system: players scam. everyone knows it. yet, the scammers get their money back on the deals that failed on purpose.

which institution would do that?


but... who cares... right?

EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:50:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Covert Kitty
I have no problem with the scam aspect of this (I've never fallen for this or other scams as I don't really do hauling).

I do have a problem with false data being on the market, anyone that does much on the market should agree with this. The margin trading skill is not the problem, just mandate that any single transaction must have sufficient isk available to exist.



Margin trading exists with the idea that all of your investments aren't being sold into at the same time.

This holds true 99% of the time, so there's no reason to change the mechanic.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:57:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Cosmoes


[...]common sense would dictate you can't put up a sell order you don't have the cash to fill....


Actually if you knew anything at all about commodities trading (and let's face it, that's what the Eve market behaves like), you would probably be stunned if you COULDN'T do something like that - RL commodities traders do this all the time.

The issue isn't the skill, or how it's being used. The issue is:

A) Players getting involved in something they have incomplete understanding of (i.e. heavy market trading).
B) Greed blinding them to the fact that there's something fishy going on. Seriously? Who buys 10 million missiles at the same time?

Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:19:00 - [23]
 

Rolling Eyes
An exploit is an exploit if CCP decides it is one.
This margins trading nonsense certainly behaves like one in some respects, and it would be easy, understandable and highly justifiable for CCP to label it as an exploit.

Jiao Governator
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:05:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Cosmoes


[...]common sense would dictate you can't put up a sell order you don't have the cash to fill....


Actually if you knew anything at all about commodities trading (and let's face it, that's what the Eve market behaves like), you would probably be stunned if you COULDN'T do something like that - RL commodities traders do this all the time.


Comparing EVE to RL is a bit misleading. While margin trading is even more pronounced in RL, prices are usually more transparent, trades are usually settled through middle men or marketmakers who have a reputation or wealth to maintain, and someone who can't make a margin call goes bankrupt.

I'm not saying this should be labeled an exploit, but the market rules should be changed so this isn't possible. I like the idea of suspending any market orders when you don't have enough ISK to meet the cost of the minimum purchase you set up (i.e, if you have a buy order at 650 isk for 10,000,000 missiles with a minimum purchase of 1, you only need the 20% margin for one missile (130 ISK) on hand while if you do 10,000,000 minimum you need 1.3b ISK on hand). Multiple orders would not be aggregated, so it wouldn't affect large scale trades (the person the skill was meant to aid).

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:19:00 - [25]
 

If a deal looks too good to be true, it is.

There. How hard was that?

grazer gin
Posted - 2011.08.10 16:44:00 - [26]
 

There is no problem you are just too stupid and greedy to see its a scam and as scamming is allowed looks like your right outer luck

Ambrale
Posted - 2011.08.10 17:17:00 - [27]
 

I have seen this going around a lot lately and I agree that it is something that should be dealt with. In any reasonable economical model there's no way that something like this should be feasible. I won't call it an exploit, but it is definitely a serious abuse of game mechanics.

There are two simple solutions I can see to this that would both completely eliminate the scammers and would in no way affect the serious traders that are using Margin Trading.

1) If you don't have the ISK to cover your buy order, it doesn't show up or it gets deleted. If you don't have the ISK to cover your order, that's fraud, the order shouldn't be visible.

2) The ISK is taken from the wallet regardless of if it would drive the character negative (probably the simplest and most effective way to do this). In any reasonable economy, if you put down a down-payment to buy something, you can go into debt if you don't have the ISK to cover your purchase. This has the added benefit of not making honest Margin Traders re-make their orders if they run low on ISK for a short time.

There seem to be two parties in this thread, the people who recognize that Margin Trading, as it stands, is broken and needs a minor fix to prevent misuse and the people who are currently using it to scam others and don't want their scams to dry up. And, yes, you can say "If it looks too good to be true, it probably is" all day, but in the end it's still a broken mechanic that should be fixed (especially since it'd be such a simple thing to fix, especially if option 2 is used, since it'd require removing code, instead of adding code).

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.08.10 18:03:00 - [28]
 

EVE is a game. In my opinion it should allow things like this, because they do happen in real life.

Call it an educational component.

Of course, the total inability for anyone to enforce a penalty on scammers is very unrealistic, so perhaps some more realism on that side is called for as well. But for now I'll settle for people learning how to not be victims.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.10 18:41:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
EVE is a game. In my opinion it should allow things like this, because they do happen in real life.

Call it an educational component.

Of course, the total inability for anyone to enforce a penalty on scammers is very unrealistic, so perhaps some more realism on that side is called for as well. But for now I'll settle for people learning how to not be victims.


But real life has taught them that if they act like special little snowflakes and ***** and moan they'll get what they want.

If they stopped acting like victims, they wouldn't know how to act.

Heiar Helmet
Posted - 2011.08.15 04:40:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: thingy wotsit
CCP needs to just put the players wallet into a negative.



I think this is a good call. Definitely needs to at least be considered.


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