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Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.05.12 10:12:00 - [1831]
 

Edited by: Zey Nadar on 12/05/2011 10:14:26
Originally by: Bagehi

The power blocs are not responsible. They are the optimal solution for the current game mechanics. CCP needs to fix the game mechanics, this doesn't do it.



Thats the point, and what CCP and greyscale doesn't understand. The harder they make to defend space, the tighter the coalitions become, because co-operation is the best way to defend space under the changes. CCP seems to have lost touch with reality completely.

And under most of the changes, the individuals and small alliances suffer first. This is true with the anomaly changes.

Panda Name
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2011.05.12 10:13:00 - [1832]
 

Originally by: Tango Zulu
Originally by: Panda Name
one doesn't even need to read the specifics of the upcoming changes to see that it's a good thing. simply stated, the extreme echoing of NC tears puts my heart at rest in the knowledge that CCP is doing the right thing. may the amarrian gods bless you, CCP.


Be careful what you post, friend. Statements like that, with a character in a corp with an empire's name in it, prove that a notable portion of the people who approve of this don't actually know anything meaningful about the change. You're approving it because of vindictiveness rather than it actually promoting its intended effect. You invalidated your cause by speaking about it.


wrong. god you are bad at this game.

Solomon XI
Hidden Souls
Posted - 2011.05.12 10:21:00 - [1833]
 

Edited by: Solomon XI on 12/05/2011 10:23:01
@ CCP:

Whoever thought of this idea should commit harakiri.

This idea is a ****-poor attempt at fixing a very real problem and will cause more problems in the short term and long term.

CCP - You are doing it wrong.

---
PS: I'm an old null-sec player myself but grew tired of all the crap that went into living in null-security. It just wasn't fun. I'm very happy being an Empire dweller now with an occasional run into low-security for lawls. YARRRR!!

Kingston Black
Posted - 2011.05.12 10:29:00 - [1834]
 

everyone who is whinging about this little change needs to harden the **** up or get out. Having to jump one wittle gate for the next jumpbridge? Cry me a river jumpbridges should be removed it'll give a reason for people to make ships and mods in deep 0.0 and sell them there.


El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.05.12 10:35:00 - [1835]
 

Originally by: Kingston Black
everyone who is whinging about this little change needs to harden the **** up or get out. Having to jump one wittle gate for the next jumpbridge? Cry me a river jumpbridges should be removed it'll give a reason for people to make ships and mods in deep 0.0 and sell them there.




You can't mine enough low end materials to meet even a moderate sized alliances needs in 0.0, it is why they buy low ends in empire and ship them to 0.0. Most alliances do build ships in 0.0, but the mineral restrictions particularly the amounts are to restrictive to support the population. Future promises of industry index fixes etc are just that future promises that may or may not ever materialize.

If you want more t2 production then you have to redo how the moons are seeded to ensure each region has some availability to each material. The easiest way would be to use a PI like system for Moons with the colonies providing the materials needed.

Its amazing how many folks don't realize those truths.

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.12 10:41:00 - [1836]
 

Edited by: bitters much on 12/05/2011 10:50:11
Originally by: Bobbeh
Less than 2 days 1800+ posts

Wonder if CCP will realize this isnt a good idea.

And furthermore that the little PL flies whispering in their ear, arent a true 0.0 entity. They are mercs, and dont need sov, or jbs, or sanctums, or any of the stuff they want to get rid of.

They want alliances that actually take sov not to have the ability to defend it effectively cause then they can just rofl stomp them. PL has no bearings on how 0.0 should change cause they dont hold sov, or maintain a group of pilots in a region, or need JB's, or need anything related to 0.0.

So stop posting and cheering and saying it will help 0.0 cause well you dont live here you just show up when someone pays you.

Your time will come and when it does (either theft or flavour of the month dieing out or no contracts or well everyone gets sick of you) we will be here pointing and laughing at the pathetic losers that remain and think they are cool... oh wait you already think your cool don't you...



I guess a: U mad ? suites here well. If the NC would now as active in joining defense fleets as they are here whining over a minor change for the better...

edit: Maybe the outrage wasnt that big if CCP has launched a new tutorial: How to use jump gates 101
Seems lots of 0.0 bears have no clue how they work and are now confused how they could leave their current system Laughing


Kingston Black
Posted - 2011.05.12 10:43:00 - [1837]
 

tosh, i farm drones and get more than enough minerals to keep me in battlecruisers, depends where you live. If there is a market for the minerals the miners will come, they alays do, the crappy buffer on hulks and their aversion to bombs is another issue

Miyuki Yotaka
Posted - 2011.05.12 10:53:00 - [1838]
 

Quote:
We will then start implementing changes that will hopefully end up making 0.0 a better place to live than it is today.

Then why remove the whole point of a JB network..?? That's one of the main benefits of having space in 0.0. =/

Insidious
0utbreak
Posted - 2011.05.12 11:06:00 - [1839]
 

Edited by: Insidious on 12/05/2011 11:11:50
Originally by: JC Anderson
Edited by: JC Anderson on 12/05/2011 00:46:24

Back when I was with the ASCN, (Yes I know, we sucked) jump bridges did not exist... Jump freighters did not exist... Warp to 0 did not exist (Though we all had thousands of insta's)... And at the time even jump drive capable standard carriers and dreads were extremely rare...

What we had was numbers to include us in the alliances with thousands of members category. We held on to our space for quite awhile until BOB, MC, and a few others finally dismantled the ASCN in an extremely successful invasion.

My point is that despite lacking these things, we still were able to build an economic infrastructure and sustain ourselves as well as our individual members through careful management. We actually had to patrol our space, and guard the entrances to it as well. And once every two weeks we would form a freighter convoy with about 300 or so escort ships and fly the 45 jumps gate to gate from our space to the main trade hub that we used in Empire. We used an advance scout fleet in front, another fleet of escorts WITH the freighters, and a final fleet that stayed one behind to watch for attackers coming up from the rear.

One of the best parts of the game was that there were more options when it came to attacking your enemies than simply invading their space. And one of those ways was to attack their supply lines directly by staging ambushes on their freighter convoys when they were most vulnerable. Things such as this provided a way for smaller groups to inflict crippling blows against the larger alliances.

It's just sad that with all the additions to make things "easier" and "safer" in null, these sort of things no longer take place as there is no longer a need. It was a big part of the game, and I have to admit that I miss it.


+1 I cant say it enough I've resubscribed after over a year watching and waiting for the moment balls are grown.

p.s. oh and too mention the first changes go in 1 day after my birthday im all giddy

Sirhc1
Posted - 2011.05.12 11:22:00 - [1840]
 

Oh Goody! Now all the Devs playing that can't dominate easily in 0.0 will now be able to skate through. You really Suc. This is one more nail getting closer to the final one in the Eve-Online Coffin....you guys much be making too much money per month....
Who's idea was this anyway?

M1ep1e
Posted - 2011.05.12 11:48:00 - [1841]
 

Please forgive me but I haven't read all of the responses yet:

Here are my comments:

1) changes to jump bridges would be completely acceptable provided CCP were able to control macro ratting. This change will simply lead to increased use of titans, so either CCP are going to have to do a lot more to stem macro ratting, especially the rampant abuse among the drone Russians (omg have you ever roamed out there? there's one macro ratter per system....!!!!), so that people who don't cheat can keep up with Titan production, or an alternative means to create a temporary jump bridge should be devised... I'm thinking here about a configurable jump bridge that, like a jump clone, can be modified once a day. This will allow reconfiguration in order to adjust for changes in the tactical situation.

All in all, this change plays into the hand of those who don't really need jump bridges because they can buy Titans like Rifters.... oh wait.. who is on the counsel? LOL Now I get it.

As for the other questions the dev had.

Quote:

* Is 0.0 industry currently geared to support the population living there?


I can't see why it isn't or why it needs any adjustment. One thing that may be needed in the future is the ability to produce a supercap in a station factory and/or to produce the components in a station and allow for final production in a 1 week timeframe.

Quote:

* Is the relationship between 0.0 and empire balanced well enough?


What is empire? Eve online is three games. (1) It's for old WOW players who run missions and want rewards with no risk (2) it's for role players who get their kicks from faction warfare and the idea that they can "win" the game if they try hard enough and (3) there is player controlled content.

If it's necessary for CCP's business model then continue developing high-sec content. For those of us who live in 0.0 few have ever run missions and those who have hated it and/or gave it up when we discovered how the game was intended to be played.

High sec? Meh. for the sake of CCP I understand it but for the sake of the game Concord should become a "faction" (finally a faction with some meaning). This new "Concord faction" should be allowed to anchor as many sentry guns as they want where ever they want. That would make low-sec dynamic because you can't just set up your ship to tank 350 dps and be invulnerable to sentry guns..... It would also allow for Concord to choose to make some areas "ultra safe" while other areas were less safe depending on resources and resistance from hostile outlaws. The divisions between high/low/null sec will become blurred depending on how many concord pilots there are.

Quote:

* Does the current sovereignty system meet our goals?


Grinding sov has become more involved and holding sov has become easier than it used to be. That means making things in 0.0 more static. It also leads to two other effects.

1) The mother ship is the new dreadnaught. Dreadnaughts have lost their traditional role for sov grinding and dreads are more or less useless now. Moms and titans have taken over the sov grinding role

however....

2) Because there is no multiple "smaller ship" solution to mother ships, sov grinding has become a simple calculation of "who ever has the most mother ships will win". Cap warfare is broken.

Two frigates can take down a cruiser
Two cruisers can take down a battle cruiser
Two Battlecruisers can down a battleship
three or four battleships with a couple of logis can take down a carrier if it's tackled
but it takes a minimum of 20 carriers/dreads to take down a mother ship

In the old days we used to have the "dooms-day win button"... that was "jump in the titan... DD and win".

... continued

M1ep1e
Posted - 2011.05.12 11:50:00 - [1842]
 

.. cintinued from previous post..

That button still exists. But now it's just a simple calculation. Whoever has the most moms wins. It's that simple and that's wrong. There needs to be a new role for dreadnaughts so multiple dreads (3-4) with support can take down a mom. That would give a dread a new (and badly needed) role and it would make mom's vulnerable to attack by multiple ships of a smaller class... like all other ships.

Quote:

* Are there enough incentives for conflict/pvp outside sov?



dunno... and I don't know if it matters. There would appear to be enough eveonline players who play the game for PVP that they managed to make chances happen. The only mechanic, if you ask me, that's broken is that there isn't a multiple smaller ship answer to mother ships.

Quote:

* Are we happy with movement/player interaction?


MORE PVP = a good thing

However, alliances stage attacks from long distances so if you want attack/counter-attack possibilities then you need to allow for that movement. If you nerf jump bridges (especially considering your inability to hem-in macro ratting the the drone regions) then you create an even more static and biased situation than we now have...

To solve that I would suggest the following:

1) re-balance dreads to allow for a jump bridge capability and a "mini" focused-dd that would allow for more movement and the possibility for 3-4 dreads with support to threaten a mother ship (like 3-4 BS with support can threaten a carrier)

2) vastly extend the bridge range of a titan in order to allow insertion of forces well behind enemy lines. That would allow for some surprises (maximum drama) and it would make alliances think beyond the "whoever had more mother ships wins" paradigm we have right now.

M-

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.05.12 12:05:00 - [1843]
 

Originally by: Imigo Montoya
The NC has repelled invasion after invasion over the years...

Since all that valiant defensive work has been based exclusively on the teleportion system (bridges) and raw numbers, the outpouring of frustration is understandable.

With bridges being reduced to helping hands rather than full-body exoskeletons and dilation removing a big part of 'numbers > all' the weak, timid and badly organized are going down hard.

ASCN had the right idea, in their aimed for self sufficiency which is why the were the first to do most things:
built the first outpost,
built the first Titan (or was Molle's born a few days prior, I forget),
had the first 'standing army',
was the first multi-regional entity etc.
All that was accomplished with blood, sweat and tears, old fashioned cooperation and competent leadership.

The only bad thing about the bridge change is that it doesn't really help create natural hubs in null, but my guess is that CCPs muse has the year off and the janitor didn't have any better ideas.

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.12 12:19:00 - [1844]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Since all that valiant defensive work has been based exclusively on the teleportion system (bridges) and raw numbers, the outpouring of frustration is understandable.


Interesting point - Jump Bridges aren't exclusively used by the NC, they're available to everybody. I even noticed and commented on a DRF guy's post complaining about the nerf... who would have thought!?!

Also, Jump Bridges and numbers aren't the only tools the NC have, so saying that the NC repelled invasions exclusively based on those is a little bit of a stretch methinks.

You seem to be forgetting that we're all carebears - we have a solid industrial backbone. Wink

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.05.12 12:31:00 - [1845]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 12/05/2011 12:34:37
Originally by: Imigo Montoya
..so saying that the NC repelled invasions exclusively based on those is a little bit of a stretch methinks.

Absolute truth just makes for boring reading, a little colouration does wonders Very Happy
Originally by: Imigo Montoya
You seem to be forgetting that we're all carebears - we have a solid industrial backbone. Wink

So did ASCN, their problem was that they didn't have much else so fell apart when the wolves got through the fence.Smile

PS: Get all your carebear friends posting in Mitten's FarmVille thread in AH so the inevitable industry revamp is as good as it can be from the start instead of CCPs usual half-assed solution that take years to mature.

Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.12 12:57:00 - [1846]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
So did ASCN, their problem was that they didn't have much else so fell apart when the wolves got through the fence.


Kind of my point exactly, the wolves have been through the fence plenty if times, and heaps of fun was had all round - by both the wolves and the farmers trying to remove them to protect the sheep. Very Happy

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
PS: Get all your carebear friends posting in Mitten's FarmVille thread in AH so the inevitable industry revamp is as good as it can be from the start instead of CCPs usual half-assed solution that take years to mature.


It seems that some of those half-assed solutions only take 7 days... Rolling Eyes

Om'en
Minmatar
Hyperion LTD.
Posted - 2011.05.12 13:00:00 - [1847]
 

Edited by: Om''en on 12/05/2011 13:07:59
CCP Soundwave and the eve fanbois crack me up!!

CCP you guys are buying your own BS? I understand the players buying into it but you guys?? lol

EVE is the biggest hack job of all time. Its not open world PVP! Its heavily instanced PVP at its very core, every system is an instance with a campable spawn point no less. Things such as cynos and JB's make it more open world but it is still far from open world.

Fleet fights are just pre mades with no limits even Blizzard could do that and get the same results of nobody being able to move or control the avatar. I will give you props for pushing the tech to allow 1000 before its gets real crappy.

Bottom line you guys are still indies that started an amazing game, but here we are 8 years later and now you want to make it more shallow and small by focusing on choke point pvp. you got to be kidding me!!

Tell ya what if you make gates a bridge or launching pad to next system trapping people trying to leave i can go with that, but some how make it like a super warp with a short little load and continue warping and land some random location in target system would do to things. #1 make eve way more immersive. #2 make it so only the FC can warp and land the fleet together would create a more challenge to defend space and allow both sides to actually do more than bubble the **** out of the gates and shoot non loaders.

So before you start swinging nerf bats around aimlessly why don't you rework the systems and add them in together.
Fix List
#1 all the sov timers suck and need a stream lined. shouldn't have so many shoots on structures. we need more strategic task's to get or loose sov not multi million things with HP's 3 times a week.
#2 Sov space must be able to sustain Industry, and then you can cut us off from Jita.
#3 Fix Gallente!!!
#4 Nerf Moon Goo and remove Concord bills. Don't make it useless just make not so profitable.
#5 Travel systems that does both create Good PVP and allow Strategy to prevail not just a bubble on a gate and ganking haulers.

Just my opinion but for me EVE never really ever felt that big its just one instance to the next with spawn points to get zerged on. as for the 1 shard thing SWG could have done it with more and bigger planets and larger cities and that was real open world this is not but it could so much more than an illusion of it all it seems to me now is like an a 8 year old Black Prophecy or Vindictus. Sorry never felt lost in space before when its gate to gate, its actually a cheap design imo. worked 8 years ago but don't ya think you can move past it and do something complex.

oh yes
#6 bring back the old cyno graphics!!!


Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.05.12 13:19:00 - [1848]
 

Posting in a thread full of tears

Lady Callia
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.05.12 13:20:00 - [1849]
 

CCP you should do a change like this in a broader release to improve 0.0 space, just removing jumpbridges is a bad idea imho

Some things could 'soften' this change though:

Cyno jammer onlining time
Shorten the onlining time of a jammer to 2 minutes, so capitals can be moved more safely while there are still possibilities for hostiles to engage.

Allow multiple outposts per system
A major function of jumpbridges is not so much fleet logistics as just industrial logistics, like moving minerals and reactions. Allowing multiple outposts per 0.0 system would remove the need for at least connections between refineries and factories. Never made sense anyway to have the 1 op per system rule only in 0.0

Sexasaurus Rex
Posted - 2011.05.12 13:37:00 - [1850]
 

An elegant and simple solution to the perceived problem of no longer being able to bridge capital ships into cynojammed systems after this change: remove cynojammers from the game.

ceaon
Posted - 2011.05.12 13:38:00 - [1851]
 

just remove JB

JB is stupid game feature

Panem EtCircenses
Posted - 2011.05.12 13:50:00 - [1852]
 

Also, just remove local.

Local is stupid game feature

Vaju Katru
Posted - 2011.05.12 14:04:00 - [1853]
 

Originally by: Panem EtCircenses
Also, just remove local.

Local is stupid game feature


This.

Hague Starcatcher
OffBeat Creations
Posted - 2011.05.12 14:25:00 - [1854]
 

Jump Bridges are life support for 0.0. You might want to make sure the patient will survive before you turn them off.

ANGAL 2000
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.05.12 14:25:00 - [1855]
 

Originally by: Bobbeh
Less than 2 days 1800+ posts

Wonder if CCP will realize this isnt a good idea.

And furthermore that the little PL flies whispering in their ear, arent a true 0.0 entity. They are mercs, and dont need sov, or jbs, or sanctums, or any of the stuff they want to get rid of.

They want alliances that actually take sov not to have the ability to defend it effectively cause then they can just rofl stomp them. PL has no bearings on how 0.0 should change cause they dont hold sov, or maintain a group of pilots in a region, or need JB's, or need anything related to 0.0.

So stop posting and cheering and saying it will help 0.0 cause well you dont live here you just show up when someone pays you.

Your time will come and when it does (either theft or flavour of the month dieing out or no contracts or well everyone gets sick of you) we will be here pointing and laughing at the pathetic losers that remain and think they are cool... oh wait you already think your cool don't you...


Why are the 30% of the thread about the nc crying no more 0.0 after this patch, It is evident 0.0 will still be their, And we had the same thing just over a month ago with the anom nurf and plex boost.

bobbeh you are an idiot you are part of the main problem in eve and yet you think the nc has full control over the game, over 90% of the player base are ether happy to have this change come in to full effect or have no interest in this subject given low/high sec has no jump bridge.

Like many other's happy to support this long over due change great work ccp.

davet517
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.12 14:49:00 - [1856]
 

Originally by: Bobbeh


So stop posting and cheering and saying it will help 0.0 cause well you dont live here you just show up when someone pays you.

Your time will come and when it does (either theft or flavour of the month dieing out or no contracts or well everyone gets sick of you) we will be here pointing and laughing at the pathetic losers that remain and think they are cool... oh wait you already think your cool don't you...


Thank you Sir. Pitchfork wielding farmers cursing me as I ride away from their burning village is what keeps me logging in. I am sure that I will one day meet a righteous and poetically just demise for my crimes against the peace loving peoples of the galaxy.

Your angst aside, though, I have at times been both sov holder and merc in the last 8 years. There is always a balance that has to be struck between being able to farm isk with impunity and stuff getting destroyed. Right now, there is too much isk being made, and not enough stuff blowing up. The balance needs to shift in the stuff blowing up direction.

Phigmeta
Posted - 2011.05.12 14:56:00 - [1857]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 11/05/2011 00:39:48
There's a very solid vibe that people 'own space' but don't feel safe in it, otherwise they wouldn't be so upset by this change.

Simply put, if you can't police your space why do you think you deserve it?

Maybe you should start actively policing it, and not just putting up random gangs but put these gargantuan brains that dwarf the thuggish PvP'ers who could never design a jump bridge network to other uses. This is another part of the game and content that other people are creating, so make the most of it and enjoy it.


Says a guys from PL ... dude you guys hide in NPC space and own nothing .... the day you have worthy SOV space you will be flipping your tune cause half of Eve would be dogpiling that ****

Mark my words ... as soon as this war is over CCP will change it back, Ivan can't pay for his fleets of mercs without them.

Phigmeta
Posted - 2011.05.12 14:59:00 - [1858]
 

Originally by: Kingston Black
everyone who is whinging about this little change needs to harden the **** up or get out. Having to jump one wittle gate for the next jumpbridge? Cry me a river jumpbridges should be removed it'll give a reason for people to make ships and mods in deep 0.0 and sell them there.




Nothing but love but...

OH PLEASE Sarah ... give me a break .... you guys camp lowsec gates in t3s and run into null to shoot at JF for KM whoring.

It funny how everyone that likes this idea doesn't seem to have SOV ... hmmmmmmm

Myz Toyou
the Organ Grinder and Company
Posted - 2011.05.12 15:06:00 - [1859]
 

Originally by: Phigmeta


It funny how everyone that whines over this change doesn't seem to remember that alliances existed before JB were ingame


fixed for you NC alt

Myz Toyou
the Organ Grinder and Company
Posted - 2011.05.12 15:08:00 - [1860]
 

Originally by: Phigmeta


Uhmm you got paid 600 billion from rat botters STFU


Your leaders RMT`d all your tech ISK otherwise you could have and would have hired PL



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