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Cedori
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:24:00 - [1591]
 

Edited by: Cedori on 11/05/2011 16:32:11
Edited by: Cedori on 11/05/2011 16:25:15
can totally see the removing of jump capable ships from using Jumpbridges, but I would have tried to adjust it some. Make it so Cyno Generators work under cyno jammers, and that Cyno Generators work like jump bridges W/R/T Standings/Passwords.

Conventional Fleets can down cynojammers (and cynogens) pretty easily already, but this would give an advantage to "owning space" on the defensive side.

The goal should be a balance between offense and defense, and this change is far to balanced on in favor of offense.

Knocking down the JB network to 1jb/1sys dramatically reduces it's defensive capabilities.

Knocking out Caps using JB (which makes sense IMO) dramatically reduces it even more.

You need to add a way for alliances to be able to bring in defensive cap fleets. Cyno Generators working under Jammers and based on standings/Passwords should work.

Basically this strikes me as an "overnerf" adjustment.


Edited: Fixed a small typo that was kindly pointed out to me!

Nestor Laurenitis
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:27:00 - [1592]
 

Originally by: Yeep
Yeah, because I'm definitely not a member of an alliance that grew up in Syndicate so theres no way I could know anything about making money there.


Apparently not.

If Syndicate was more profitable Goons wouldn't only live there when they are regrouping.

I'm sure your alliance chooses to support a massive SOV infrastructure in Deklein because it's so much less profitable than their ancestral grounds in Syndicate.

ANGAL 2000
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:27:00 - [1593]
 

Originally by: bp920091
Originally by: Nestor Laurenitis
Putting the High Risk back into the "High Risk, LOW/No Reward" aspect of null sec.

*applauds CCP*




Fixed that for you.

Please also note who supports this change and who opposes it. Those who oppose it are 0.0 holders who LIVE in 0.0, and those who support it are either highsec players, lowsec players (im looking RIGHT at you Liang), Botters (DRF, who dont care about the state of 0.0, as long as they can make REAL LIFE cash by playing eve illegally), or Pandemic Legion (who has countless titans and does not really hold ANY space)

End result. People who support this change will not be affected by it, people who oppose are affected by it, and CCP wants everything to be highsec.

How about this, for a good risk/reward relationship, make 0.0 far more PROFITABLE, as it is far more dangerous (ever heard of doomsdays, bombs, interdiction spheres, and other 0.0 goodies)

The idea is not terrible, but the way to "fix" it is.

CCP, go play eve out in 0.0 and see what it is like nowadays.


So ill point out some fun facts for you
1 there are member of ever alliance from 0.0 saying yes to this even your own. (not much left of that bit of rage)
2 the head of the csm have backed this change so he claims TOO on part (he lies all the time)
3 you are upset about the changes given the fact you have no jb. (we killed them)
4 this is one of the best 0.0 changes for a long time and are welcomed from delve to the great Russian Empires (not RMT but a game empier they have used their isk to build and buy supers and replace ships lost)
5 you mad son (HES MAD)

Naomi Wildfire
Amarr
Spricer
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:27:00 - [1594]
 

Quote:
Make it so Cyno Beacons work under cyno jammers, and that Cyno Beacons work like jump bridges W/R/T Standings/Passwords.


LaughingLaughingLaughing

Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:27:00 - [1595]
 

Originally by: Leelo dallasmultipas
0.0 should be relatively safe to the residents because of all the isk they have paid to make it so, the wars they fought to control the region in which they currently live.


Did you make this up yourself? Or has CCP ever actually told you this? Because as far as I know, it's complete and utter bs.


ANGAL 2000
FinFleet
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:32:00 - [1596]
 

Originally by: Drykor
Originally by: Leelo dallasmultipas
0.0 should be relatively safe to the residents because of all the isk they have paid to make it so, the wars they fought to control the region in which they currently live.


Did you make this up yourself? Or has CCP ever actually told you this? Because as far as I know, it's complete and utter bs.




I think its an NC line.
BFF anyone?

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:34:00 - [1597]
 

Originally by: Nestor Laurenitis
Originally by: Yeep
Yeah, because I'm definitely not a member of an alliance that grew up in Syndicate so theres no way I could know anything about making money there.


Apparently not.

If Syndicate was more profitable Goons wouldn't only live there when they are regrouping.

I'm sure your alliance chooses to support a massive SOV infrastructure in Deklein because it's so much less profitable than their ancestral grounds in Syndicate.

Goons hold some of the best space in Eve. Why would they go back to Syndicate? The anom nerf was a boost to Goons. The JB change impacts Goons the least of most alliances, simply because they are close enough to empire, with enough buffer on all null sec sides to not have to worry about other null alliances hitting them. By all rights, the Goons should be singing the praises of these two changes because they stand to benefit the most from them. They seem to only be complaining because they either see how badly CCP has been handling null in general or because they are gleefully trolling everyone.

Svennig
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:36:00 - [1598]
 

Originally by: Nestor Laurenitis
Edited by: Nestor Laurenitis on 11/05/2011 16:19:15
Originally by: Svennig

Take Sov. It's better than Syndicate. I can see the poster now.


Yeah, we don't do Sov. We'd mouth shoot our mouth first.


Yeah, unfortunately you might have missed the sarcasm in my post.

Messy Beaver
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:39:00 - [1599]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 11/05/2011 16:24:20
Originally by: Messy Beaver
There are corporations/alliances out there that want to make that first step into 0.0 to gain knowledge, experience. Without the power blocs it is impossible to do atm.

Btw several of the corps at the centre of your alliance started that way, living out of pos's making less isk than they could in empire but in turn having space they could call their own.

It's a shame that they would then turn into the corps that came up with "lets hire mercs against PL to help us keep our space" as their best strategy(seriously that still keeps me chuckling)

I started out that way. Then the NC of that time rolled us (D2, Razer, and friends). Then we did it again, but in the NE this time. We got rolled again (don't remember which long dead alliances that time). Then I joined IAC who were rolled by goons and -A-. Then we joined another that was rolled by the SC. Then another that died because of the threat of the SC. Then another that was an NC pet, then it became an SC pet, then the NC killed it. Then an Atlas pet, rolled by PL and the testies. Then an NC member, rolled by the DRF. I'm not a coalition fanboi.

Point is, many null corps started out like that. Many long time null players remember those days. I honestly could care less what the NC is doing right now. I haven't been flying with them since they let two idiots suicide super fleets into lag multiple times and kept giving him the ability to call CTAs. I don't like blobs. I don't like lag. These changes to null aren't going to help either problem.


You are 100% right these changes wont affect that, the changes do not go far enough in my opinion. I just find it funny that most of the people complaining belong to the offending power blocs responsible for the shambles that is the current 0.0 mechanics.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:41:00 - [1600]
 

Originally by: Messy Beaver
You are 100% right these changes wont affect that, the changes do not go far enough in my opinion. I just find it funny that most of the people complaining belong to the offending power blocs responsible for the shambles that is the current 0.0 mechanics.

The power blocs are not responsible. They are the optimal solution for the current game mechanics. CCP needs to fix the game mechanics, this doesn't do it.

Kblackjack54
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:44:00 - [1601]
 

Again all we see here are a bunch of script kiddies let loose in a room with pencils and CCP have published what they managed to write on the walls.

Monkeys and typewriters springs to mind here, you have so little idea what makes the average player actually tick itís unreal.

Letís look at the way players interact, seem to be a pet theme of this box of monsters you keep up there as in truth there two distinct groups, Mains and Alts, mains fight, alts support mains, thatís how it works, Mains love to travel, does not matter how, JBís are great when you have em but other than that you still travel, they are in the main supported by altís to provide finance for ships ect, knocking the JBís network will harm only this isk making potential in 0.0, possibly driving it out of null sec back into empire, kind of defeats the object really as what remains will require protecting to be functional and consume even more time/resources than currently expended as players defend there sectors from disruptive insurgent forces rather than engage in PvP interaction as these changes has professed to be aimed at doing.

Altís on the other hand rarely travel far, there activities revolve around ratting P.I. and industry, they interact only with there corp/ alliance members and due to intel avoid anyone else at ALL costs, limiting JBís to a single unit per system will not effect this except to reduce the personal travel they undertake limited as it is even more and concentrate them into smaller areas of space, may reduce there isk generating capacity but only for a few days until assets are moved, all other transportation is undertaken by JF anyway so JBís do not effect this at all really, as for the now empty systems, well I guess the Monkeys can dream up something for those to

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:47:00 - [1602]
 

HTFU?

Taipion
Caldari
Operations Control
United Pod Service
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:50:00 - [1603]
 

BULL****:

"The first change is the removal of ships with jumpdrives from the jumpbridge eligibility list. This isnít very dramatic and long overdue. Basically if your ship has a jumpdrive, it canít use the jumpbridge (Black Ops ships are exempt from this rule). This change will go in on the 17th of this month."

THIS does mean, Freighters may use JBs and JumpFreighters may NOT.

CCP Forum-Post-Quality == CCP Patch/Fixing/Tweaking-Quality

-.-

Someone fix CCP, please.

Major Stallion
The Money Shot Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:51:00 - [1604]
 

Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Major Stallion

pretty sure this change was made BECAUSE of how the game was played. 0.0 Logistics has been a joke the last 4 years..Let's start to see the 0.0 empires actually have to depend on their space and their pilots for more than LOLTECHNETIUM


What would that be? seeing as how they just nerfed the reason to defend it for military sov upgrades.



uhhh rely on your pilots to mine, build, and support your infrastructure, and not JITA? Theres a horrible problem where an alliance in the outer reaches of 0.0 can still make it to Jita and back in less time than it would take me to traverse a small 0.0 region looking for targets. CCP is now forcing the issue a little bit more by making it harder to get to jita from 744523585 jumps away, and you dont like it.

El'Niaga
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.05.11 16:53:00 - [1605]
 

Originally by: Lyric Lahnder
For the first time in a while I feel sorry for the people who live in null sec.

I have tried three separate times to live and work in null sec in the larger alliances and always left broke. Unless you own moons you cant make any money in null sec unless you can spend your entire day playing eve which is impossible for any one with a job/wife/kids. It seems the anomaly nerf made this much worse.

Im in a chat channel of people who run missions together(in other words Huge fuzzy care bears) and we've seen a huge influx of people from larger null sec alliances who have packed their bags and returned to empire because its impossible to make money out their and fight wars. Im certain this change will also see this number increase.

So... Your trying to increase conflict in null sec and on top of that your also nerfing rewards to players in null sec. Which means people will fight more(lose more) and have fewer recourses to replace it.

Im not entirely sure this what you want to go for ccp. When ever I try to explain to some one why eve is different from other MMO's I explain the dynamics and politics of null sec. Now it seems you are driving people away from one of the major things that makes eve unique.

I think im starting to understand what Iteration as in (ship iteration as mentioned by the csm) means. If your dont do balancing and iteration the game becomes a huge tug of war between the groups of players: Care Bears vs Null sec people vs pirates in low sec vs merc's etc. They all want certain changes with in the frame work of the game that benefit them but when it happens it screws one or all of the other groups.

CCP is Unique because it stress' its more then the money it makes and actually gives a damn what the players think. You need to listen to the CSM well when they head up there to see you. If this thread on the JB change doesn't change your mind about your current approach to null sec perhaps they will.


Soundwave's words are pretty clear. They don't really care about us. They want us to pay to play their game and then play it their way. They'll do whatever misguided efforts they believe will result in their 'playstyle'. Its almost like they've forgotten the mistakes SOE did with SWG and that killed that game and essentially SOE.

Your post is well written though and indeed much like the anomaly nerf, this will not lead to more conflict, it will lead to less. CCP doesn't seem to understand, the majority of players are not the folks that can log on 8 hours a day its the guy or gal that plays couple hours a day or a few days a week. The harder you make logistics for them, the longer it takes them to make isk the more time they spend outside of combat just trying to build up.

The CSM is a joke and has been, at least one and I think two are former CCP employees who couldn't affect game change at CCP but joined the CSM thinking they could there? I mean seriously how big an ego do they have. Over half of the CSM have been in it multiple times and really accomplished nothing, you see the CSM is nothing but a PR move. It makes you think you have power but you have none.

The CCP that put the game before the money died years ago, its been a slow death but it is no more. The shell remains but the heart is gone. Soundwave's promises that they'll buff things later are hollow, CCP has not really introduced any major new ships or tactics in 2 years. They haven't because they've not been having the majority of their design staff work on EVE, they are milking EVE for all they can. Unless they find their heart and redouble their efforts EVE will begin to decline as her golden age comes to a close. Incarna is a joke of the carrot dangled for so many years and was not programmed in 6 years. It too like many game systems will sit years without completion because EVE is CCPs testbed not its baby anymore.

Kriegman
Ixion Defence Systems
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:01:00 - [1606]
 

Thats alright bro's, we can live with nerf:

1) Bot a lot
2) Fly caps and supercaps with JD
3) Win EVE

This JB nerf is ******ed if CCP thinks that it will invite more people to 0.0. The JB networks help average indy, ratter, subcap PvP pilot to get around the gate camps. The botters, rmters, and elite PvP dudes have their titans ready to go at every POS to bridge on demand.

Whats the point holding SOV anyways? The JB was the main convenience factor for capturing SOV, otherwise it is better to live in NPC space in a POS

SeniraSource
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:03:00 - [1607]
 

Edited by: SeniraSource on 11/05/2011 17:03:47
What you all *****ing about it one per SYSTEM... which means you can have another next door :D ... you only have to do one jump you arkanor mining care bears... does mean I can bubble the connections in my hic and **** you all though :D

Carcusian
Global Criminal Countdown
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:03:00 - [1608]
 

So you'll have to actually take one gate to get to your next jump bridge?

O the horror.

Changes like this are long overdue.

Now let's see cool-own periods on capital jump drives as well, and maybe we'll continue to get rid of instant-mega-fleets all over the damn map.

Somebody said this change is the end game that kills pvp. Been hearing that since '05. It wasn't true then, won't be true now.

GG CCP.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:05:00 - [1609]
 

Wow, quite the Threadnaught....it grew 25 pages overnight. Love the tears, love the tears...I'm soaking wet from wading through them all. Learned a lot about JB's and more about the gameplay in 0.0 though, so it's not all a waste of space. Keep it coming!

Elmore Jones
Electric Monk inc
Redrum Fleet
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:07:00 - [1610]
 

Aw CCP... Whut? What the hell? I understand yo want to intorduce better fights in 0.0 but stripping the super out of supercaps is the way not this :( Or at least slap the supercaps first before making the logistics teams heads explode :P

Any alliance strong already in titans isnt affected too much here in terms of mass deployment of ships, but new and smaller entities will be crushed under the Avatar's hoof.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:11:00 - [1611]
 

Originally by: Carcusian
So you'll have to actually take one gate to get to your next jump bridge?

O the horror.

Changes like this are long overdue.

Now let's see cool-own periods on capital jump drives as well, and maybe we'll continue to get rid of instant-mega-fleets all over the damn map.

Somebody said this change is the end game that kills pvp. Been hearing that since '05. It wasn't true then, won't be true now.

GG CCP.


Big fleets aren't instant. They take several days notice and several hours to form. They also don't get from point A to B all that fast. If they are going across the map, that is usually a multi-day affair simply because everyone isn't online at the same time, so multiple smaller fleets have to form and move individually. It only looks instant to people who are horrible at Eve and don't have spies. The "omg, this fleet just showed up out of no where!!!11" crowd will still complain about "instant fleets" without JBs.

Messy Beaver
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:16:00 - [1612]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Messy Beaver
You are 100% right these changes wont affect that, the changes do not go far enough in my opinion. I just find it funny that most of the people complaining belong to the offending power blocs responsible for the shambles that is the current 0.0 mechanics.

The power blocs are not responsible. They are the optimal solution for the current game mechanics. CCP needs to fix the game mechanics, this doesn't do it.


You think the player base has no responsibility in changes CCP makes to the game?

The players asked for a more all round space simulation(cant remember back that far?).......CCP gives you Incarna walking in stations

Player base asked for a change to the pos sov system.......CCP gives you the horrendous system we have today

Player base asked for customisable ships.......CCP gave you T3 cruisers

Don't think that the bears whining about travel times gave us JB's, warp to 0 etc?

The power blocs shaped this game so that small roams, smaller scale pvp became the preverbial ugly bird in a bar, only attractive when looked through beer goggles or to those with a fetish for it.

My point in this horrible post? The players have shaped this game just as much as CCP have. Take a look at your own playstyle before crying to CCP asking for changes.

El Liptonez
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:17:00 - [1613]
 

I love how all tears in this thread come from NC members.

Tyraeil Starblade
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:18:00 - [1614]
 

10/10

CCP has successfully trolled every NC carebear in Eve.

Organa
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:21:00 - [1615]
 



Big fleets aren't instant. They take several days notice and several hours to form. They also don't get from point A to B all that fast. If they are going across the map, that is usually a multi-day affair simply because everyone isn't online at the same time, so multiple smaller fleets have to form and move individually. It only looks instant to people who are horrible at Eve and don't have spies. The "omg, this fleet just showed up out of no where!!!11" crowd will still complain about "instant fleets" without JBs.



if it takes you days or even hours to form a fleet your doing it wrong

Suzzana Z
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:22:00 - [1616]
 

Is it CCCP the new owner of CCP or are CCP a former CCCP Officer

You are so stupid in your new ide off 0.0 living

Mastertz
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:22:00 - [1617]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Carcusian
So you'll have to actually take one gate to get to your next jump bridge?

O the horror.

Changes like this are long overdue.

Now let's see cool-own periods on capital jump drives as well, and maybe we'll continue to get rid of instant-mega-fleets all over the damn map.

Somebody said this change is the end game that kills pvp. Been hearing that since '05. It wasn't true then, won't be true now.

GG CCP.


Big fleets aren't instant. They take several days notice and several hours to form. They also don't get from point A to B all that fast. If they are going across the map, that is usually a multi-day affair simply because everyone isn't online at the same time, so multiple smaller fleets have to form and move individually. It only looks instant to people who are horrible at Eve and don't have spies. The "omg, this fleet just showed up out of no where!!!11" crowd will still complain about "instant fleets" without JBs.



This is why you lost all your space. lol.

IskPlease
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:25:00 - [1618]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Needa3
Now put the jump bridges near a gate or on a planet instead of a pos so they cant go hide in the safety of a pos.


Still don't get why it is so hard to remove the damn things.

Before they were there every alliance managed to its logistics just fine. Now people don't even now how to fly through a gate. It seems like "jump bridge in game" = "no brains needed outside game"

If you ask me, those things should never have made it into the game anyway.



so, when do we get destructible stations or station ping pong? it is time Eve starts getting rid of the "easy mode"

Well then at least we can agree on removing unprobable ships from the game, no more easy mode.


No disagreement there. I'm pretty sure you'll get your wish too :)


Hide your tengus, hide your LP, coz they'r nerfin' everybody out here!

Iece Quaan
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:28:00 - [1619]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Zamiq

Again, you have not told us why this change will increase the chances of this non-consensual pvp that you keep talking about. I mean the people with an intel channel and a JB will stay as people with an intel channel and a JB and it does not take a genius to figure out that if a roaming gang has been spotted 3 jumps away from a JB location then its not safe to go there.


It increases traffic in areas that are more accessible to players outside your alliance. It's a given that a POS with guns, shields and a jumpbridge to another friendly POS is inherently safer than a stargate. While it's certainly possible to kill people at POSs, it's a bit more complex than just roaming around, killing people in open space.


Ignorance. PVP anyplace in eve, not just in 0.0, depends far more on your knowledge of and ability to manipulate session timers, immunity timers, and aggression mechanics than the simple fact that a JB exists.

This will change nothing; those of us skilled at avoiding ( or forcing ) pvp will see no change other than the amount of time it takes to get from point A to point B. The only thing you've done is make day-to-day logistics even more of a soul-crushing grind than it already is.

If you want MOAR PVP then you need to take a serious look at the way aggression and interdiction mechanics work. It is, and always has been, absolutely trivial to avoid fights. The general idea that you need to patrol your own space in order to keep it secure is sound; the problem is that you can never, ever remove six dudes who camp gates with off-grid bookmarks and improved cloaks. And you've just given them double the number of points to afk camp. Asymmetrical conflict should be possible, but what's the point of holding sov space if it doesn't give you any benefits?

Sirus Prime
Caldari
Xero Corporation
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:32:00 - [1620]
 

Originally by: Night Epoch
One JB per system? I expect a threadnaught.


EMBRACE THE THREADNAUGHT OF OUR RAGE CCP!!! QUIT F**KING UP MY GAME EXPERIENCE!!!

/rage


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