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Cynthia Ysolde
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:21:00 - [571]
 

Edited by: Cynthia Ysolde on 10/05/2011 21:21:25
Originally by: Celistin
The biggest thing for me is keeping myself supplied.

I don't have a jump freighter and cyno alt. I have buy orders in jita for ship modules and I shuttle them up to nullsec so I can fit my ships.

The "l33t" pvp corps (lol @ PL) will roam around and pick off random solos because there are less JBs and the people who live there will have a harder time forming a counter fleet and then catching the l33t doodz.

This really looks like less gang vs gang pvp and more 20v2 ganking.

Which ultimately is all the leeters who don't own any space really want. They come out to nullsec, gank a couple miners and ratters and run away by the time a counter fleet is formed. It makes their KB look special but there isn't much actual "pvp" going on.


so you might have to :gasp: work with someone else in a MMOG? Say it ain't so!

Giselle Garner
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:22:00 - [572]
 

This will be a lot of laughs.
First, you have a lot of NC whining.
Second, you have a lot of PL ppl laughing.
Third, NC will show to PL what happens when his fleet go to PL territory.
Fourth, PL will cry about losing a big part of his fleet and not getting contracts to kill people as normal people that live in 0.0 can do it now "easily".

You will see ;)

PD: rest of the player base follow giving faction items to all that people, so no change at all.

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:22:00 - [573]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 10/05/2011 21:15:17
I'm genuinely interested to know how having to do a couple of warps between each bridge will "kill 0.0"


Like I said, CCP has screwed up 0.0 so much that Delve - one of the best regions in the game that doesn't have technetium - is so unpleasant nobody wanted it. IT kept sov for forever after they fled back to empire because it just wasn't really worth the time. Now, it's even ****tier: it's deep 0.0 so getting there is just much more of a pain in the ass, traveling is boring as all hell. The only sov worth having is technetium sov, but CCP has implemented two hamfisted nerfs rather than fixing these broad swaths of worthless regions. Delve proved there's already so little value in 0.0 that it's starting to empty out.

Kesslar Znel
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:22:00 - [574]
 

If making roaming ganks easier is your goal, why not bring back warp to 15 on gates?

That's sarcasm.

This game is already painful to play as it is, and the only reason any of us do is because we're total masochists, but I know dominatrices who don't put their clients through this level of abuse.

This change solves nothing and the only people happy with it are people who will never (ever) see it.

Cellistara
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:22:00 - [575]
 

Originally by: Rumpelstilski
Edited by: Rumpelstilski on 10/05/2011 21:14:37
Originally by: Cellistara
Originally by: JarJar Binkz
Originally by: Cellistara
What this will basically do is kill off 0.0 industry, specifically mining. We already deal with cloaky campers sitting in systems with any kind of industry index for weeks at a time, so to deal with it we take the jb from one mining system to another. Usually through a loop since systems with refining stations tend to be cyno jammed so fleets of hulks don't get a super dropped on us. Now no point in mining, no one will be able to mine enough ore to make the isk to buy new ships before the old ones explode. Can't jump a rorq anywhere since it has a jump drive, same with a JF. Guess it's wormholes or nothing now. We'll just buy everything from russian botters and import the rest from hisec, wait JF's again nvm.


NEWSFLASH: capitals can move without using gates or bridges

Basic instructions, have friend put a cyno up, right click on capacitor, click 'self destruct'

Currently: Bridges take caps to systems with cyno jammers
With change: If you can jump the ship itself, you can't enter a system with a JB

That's why the cyno jammer can be put offline, and online. The procedure takes five minute or so, but it requires communication with fellow spaceship friends, this is what CCP intends, I believe.

People when not in need tend to go each for himself, that beats the point of mmorpgism philosophy of Eve Online. When people need to communicate they create better content and it makes the game more interesting, even if it is more difficult.

Deal wiz it, you'll probably have more fun over it in the long run


So we can pull out the JB and Offline the cyno jammer and move the rorq or JF, the hulks still have to just sit and spin in station because no way in hell is anyone going to move em. Of course we could get a big fleet together and escort em, but then people will do what nulli did and just camp the gates with 2 or 3 bombers, thats more than enough to kill all the hulks. Combine that with cloaky campers and nullsec mining is dead.

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:22:00 - [576]
 

I am definitely looking forward to this change. best thing to happen to .0 in a long time.

CCP should however have a look at systems in deep 0.0 and make some of those a tad more accessible- be it either by increasing the frequency of wormholes or adding additional regional jump-gates where required/needed.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:22:00 - [577]
 

Originally by: Cynthia Ysolde

As someone who spends 90% of my time in eve doing exactly this, it's a whole lot more effort than pretty much any other kind of PVP and is incredibly risky. While people do absolutely get ganked on them all the time, it's almost entirely because of laziness on the part of the gankee. I can't tell you how many times I've seen myself or my alts reported in channels over and over and still having carriers etc. jump in to the jumpbridge/cynogen I'm camping. This isn't because it's ~so easy~ to camp cynogens, it's because people are stupid and don't read intel channels. If people actually read intel and scout themselves, it's nearly impossible to catch them.



Quoting this because it's true.

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:22:00 - [578]
 

Originally by: Mattress Lover
Have any of the devs making these changes ever played Eve in 0.0? I doubt it, they are moronic and show a complete lack of understanding of the game.

As regards force projection you are just making people do 30-40 jumps instead of 5-6. Thanks for making Eve more boring and time consuming - I am completely amazed at how stupid you are.

Listen to the CSM, that's why they're there, to protect our interests.

Not, they make people do 6-8 jumps instead of 5-6


Drama queen, also coming from a person that gets his ships directly from alliance in nulsec

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:23:00 - [579]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


We did.


so what is the point of the csm if ccp dosnt listern to them on stupid changes they push through?


We did listen to the CSM. The changes were much further reaching initially. Their input had impact on the final product, which is vastly different than initially proposed a good while ago. To make it clear, there were also different views on the CSM regarding this change.

So you did the standard trick of proposing something even more ******ed, probably even ridiculous by CCP standards, and then you decide to notch it down to what you intended from the beginning, to 'accomodate' the CSM, you know we arent stupid...

The alternative is that you went beyond full ****** with your initial ideas, then again it is CCP we are talking about, with their causality model made by a 3-year-old.

@CCP, why dont you want people to actually live in 0.0? Why do you keep nerfing the ability for the common grunt to live in 0.0 and force them to do their day to day living in high sec and only come to 0.0 for pvp? Is that the goal CCP has in mind with 0.0, some kind of pvp battleground, instead of empire building?

And why cant you get the idea in your head that more conflict drivers and easier destruction (like here removing large part of your defense against an opponent who outnumbers you by making it harder to have your own caps under cyno jammer) means larger powerblocks because peopel still need some degree of safety.
As example here, one of the very few defenses you have against an opponent who is seriously larger/stronger than you are is caps under cynojammer, it is purely defensive and means you do not have the bigger blob. Now you severely nerf that ability, what do you think that means for the smaller group who also wants to do something in 0.0 without napping everyone? Two possibilities, they are either overrun or they join a larger powerblock, since if you remove a defense against blobs, they go to the only other possibility, making sure you are in the bigger blob than your opponents (which is the reason i joined the NC, being overrun by larger enemy groups got kinda boring, so I decided to join a large powerblock).


XavierVE
Reasonable People
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:23:00 - [580]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
A wide range of options were considered, among those, different levels of guns on the POS. Everything from changing the fitting requirements to stripping them entirely. At the end of the day, I'm not entirely thrilled about basing smaller scale pvp around POSs. I really like the idea of having it out on the open, at a "neutral" structure like gates. It's much more visible than having to track down a POS that will still give your opponent an advantage.


Best place for jump bridges are at planets, visible on overview like a stargate is, and only one per system. You got the one per system right, just need to move them off POS's and off to a planet next to i-hubs.

Great job though, nice to see some positive changes making superblocs something less than 100% totally secure. Can't wait to go camp some chokepoints.

Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:23:00 - [581]
 

Originally by: Martin Mckenna
Originally by: Mynas Atoch
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 10/05/2011 20:58:33
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It should be difficult to avoid PVP in nullsec. Right now that's relatively easy due to..
dramiels, cynabals, machs, ****ed ECCM mechanics making ships unprobable and cloaks with or without afk .. not to mention invulnerable npc stations.

Where's the balance?


The "invulnerable" npc space you talk about is to cater to groups of player who dont have 700 man blobs and they also help in the transition for new players from empire to 0.0. Without them it would not be possible to live in 0.0 without being in a major alliance.


Aye Martin, but they don't have to be INVULNERABLE. They can be really tough . they can be self repairing .. they can have invulnerable stronger defence guns ... but untouchable? PvP in nullsec should NEVER be avoidable if the enemy is determined enough, except temporarily.

Also .. afk cloaking . what's THAT all about?

gnome proper
Lost Souls Corp
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:23:00 - [582]
 

Absolutely love the change. It will personally affect me both as a resident and invader. That's awesome!

Bonuspoints for exposing the idiocy of people complaining cluelessly about the change. If they are that stupid, they shouldn't be able to claim sov to begin with (there's an idea!)

It's a game, it changes over time... :blown mind:

Very Happy

Zamiq
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:23:00 - [583]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


We did.


so what is the point of the csm if ccp dosnt listern to them on stupid changes they push through?


We did listen to the CSM. The changes were much further reaching initially. Their input had impact on the final product, which is vastly different than initially proposed a good while ago. To make it clear, there were also different views on the CSM regarding this change.


So basically what you are getting is this:

-Any planned change before the election of the new CSM is good to go.
-Any change that CSM is conflicted on is a go.
-Any change that is overcomplicated and will not yield desired results is a go.


You seem to be stubborn and set in your ways. People in this thread are asking you why not remove JBs from POS and then make them visible to the entire system? How would that not accomplish what you are looking for? Why increase the number of jumps?

Svennig
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:23:00 - [584]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Purrp Ledone
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

I think we're doing this in terms of longer scale development, at least to some extent. We're developing the plan, which we'll share with the CSM this month, and hopefully we'll be able to show the players shortly after that.

This is an isolated change that has been slated to happen for a while.


seriously why wasn't "removing guns from JB pos" considered since it's stupid easy to do, does a better job than your proposal, and doesn't increase tedium


CCP Soundwave, can you elaborate on whether this option was considered, and if so, why it was rejected?


A wide range of options were considered, among those, different levels of guns on the POS. Everything from changing the fitting requirements to stripping them entirely. At the end of the day, I'm not entirely thrilled about basing smaller scale pvp around POSs. I really like the idea of having it out on the open, at a "neutral" structure like gates. It's much more visible than having to track down a POS that will still give your opponent an advantage.


A "neutral" structure which imposes its own mechanics onto fleet fights that take place at it? Are you high right now? You're forcing gate games onto people. If you did it at an ungunned POS it would be a much more neutral fight.

rofflesausage
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:23:00 - [585]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Purrp Ledone
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

I think we're doing this in terms of longer scale development, at least to some extent. We're developing the plan, which we'll share with the CSM this month, and hopefully we'll be able to show the players shortly after that.

This is an isolated change that has been slated to happen for a while.


seriously why wasn't "removing guns from JB pos" considered since it's stupid easy to do, does a better job than your proposal, and doesn't increase tedium


CCP Soundwave, can you elaborate on whether this option was considered, and if so, why it was rejected?


A wide range of options were considered, among those, different levels of guns on the POS. Everything from changing the fitting requirements to stripping them entirely. At the end of the day, I'm not entirely thrilled about basing smaller scale pvp around POSs. I really like the idea of having it out on the open, at a "neutral" structure like gates. It's much more visible than having to track down a POS that will still give your opponent an advantage.


Make it so they are not at a POS and show on the overview like gates?

Just make a JB effectively the same as a gate in terms of how they work in game, with the addition of fuel and ownership.

FellRaven
Minmatar
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:24:00 - [586]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 10/05/2011 21:15:17
I'm genuinely interested to know how having to do a couple of warps between each bridge will "kill 0.0"

No, seriously. How? People live in hi-sec, lo-sec, NPC 0.0 and W-space with no jump bridges at all, but people who live in sov 0.0 can't get by day by day if they have to use a jump gate?

Excuse my scepticism. I trust you will understand if it seems more like you're making a fuss about a very minor change.

EDIT: and to answer the poster directly above: see my sig.


Did you read the bit that said Capitals can't use JBs? Which in effect means you can't defend a Cyno Jammed system with Capital.

Cynthia Ysolde
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:25:00 - [587]
 

Originally by: Mattress Lover
Have any of the devs making these changes ever played Eve in 0.0? I doubt it, they are moronic and show a complete lack of understanding of the game.

As regards force projection you are just making people do 30-40 jumps instead of 5-6. Thanks for making Eve more boring and time consuming - I am completely amazed at how stupid you are.

Listen to the CSM, that's why they're there, to protect our interests.


its almost like they're trying to make eve a big place you can't get from one side of to the other in 10 minutes

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:25:00 - [588]
 

Edited by: Weaselior on 10/05/2011 21:26:48
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

A wide range of options were considered, among those, different levels of guns on the POS. Everything from changing the fitting requirements to stripping them entirely. At the end of the day, I'm not entirely thrilled about basing smaller scale pvp around POSs. I really like the idea of having it out on the open, at a "neutral" structure like gates. It's much more visible than having to track down a POS that will still give your opponent an advantage.


Make the jump-in point 10km from the JB, remove guns from the pos, and it's a neutral zone just like a stargate, there's no advantage to someone fighting a ganker compared to a stargate at all. You also are ignoring the beacon for the JB which would just reuse TCU code.

edit: also why are rorquals and JF's now barred from JB's, what is the advantage to that that outweighs useless tedium?

ModeratedToSilence
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:25:00 - [589]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Edited by: Vile rat on 10/05/2011 21:18:26
Edited by: Vile rat on 10/05/2011 21:17:59
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Smoking Blunts
what is the point in the csm if you can not speak for us on changes that are stupid


We did.


so what is the point of the csm if ccp dosnt listern to them on stupid changes they push through?


We were able to convince them to change what they were doing to a result that was moderately better in what you see now. We have a limited amount of power as player delegates, we can lobby, try and convince, but inevitably this is their game, their product and we are only a voice. This change was going in and this represents the best outcome that could have been achieved.


To help the player base understand how the CSM is useful, it would be nice to see the original changes proposed by ccp, the alterations proposed by the CSM as well as the final product.

From CCPs point of view I can understand why they dont want this level of transparency. The level of ridicule leveled in their direction would be incredible.

Shawna Gray
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:25:00 - [590]
 

Originally by: Rumpelstilski
Originally by: Celistin
The biggest thing for me is keeping myself supplied.

I don't have a jump freighter and cyno alt. I have buy orders in jita for ship modules and I shuttle them up to nullsec so I can fit my ships.

Join a player owned corporation, cooperate, help them with their logistic, be a useful and good member of your chosen spaceship society and there will be people with caps and cynos and whatnot to help you.


That's the point of a MULTIplayer game


Its much better/easier to just get that 2nd account for a noob scout or cynoalt.

Nevigrofnu Mrots
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:25:00 - [591]
 

Edited by: Nevigrofnu Mrots on 10/05/2011 21:26:22
:-(

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:25:00 - [592]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Cynthia Ysolde

As someone who spends 90% of my time in eve doing exactly this, it's a whole lot more effort than pretty much any other kind of PVP and is incredibly risky. While people do absolutely get ganked on them all the time, it's almost entirely because of laziness on the part of the gankee. I can't tell you how many times I've seen myself or my alts reported in channels over and over and still having carriers etc. jump in to the jumpbridge/cynogen I'm camping. This isn't because it's ~so easy~ to camp cynogens, it's because people are stupid and don't read intel channels. If people actually read intel and scout themselves, it's nearly impossible to catch them.



Quoting this because it's true.

So it is an issue that players have a chance of defending themselves? Because right now both for industrials and any kind of pve ship, the only defense against a pvp ship is not being caught. Get caught, you die. Dont get caught, you dont die.

So since you say here you think it should be impossible to evade being caught by being careful and watching out, how long do you think an industrial player stays in 0.0 when he gets ganked repeatedly without anything he can do about it (since you say that is what you want, you should die even if you are careful, watch out and got a scout). Why not just randomly let pve/industrial ships explode in 0.0?

Acki Juc
Caldari
0utbreak
Outbreak.
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:25:00 - [593]
 

I support this very small step in the right direction. CCP still has a lot to work on before the game is 'good' again.

Rumpelstilski
Caldari
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:26:00 - [594]
 

Originally by: rofflesausage
Make it so they are not at a POS and show on the overview like gates?

Just make a JB effectively the same as a gate in terms of how they work in game, with the addition of fuel and ownership.

There is a reason why there is such a thing as "shallow 0.0" and "deep 0.0".

Otherwise there'd be empire gates in omist and tenal, no? Smile

Balthamel Eval'Raman
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:26:00 - [595]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
It's much more visible than having to track down a POS that will still give your opponent an advantage.


Originally by: CCP Soundwave
You are not entitled to a fair fight where everyone lines up 10 ships of equal type to fight like gentlemen.

CCP Soundwave


C C P Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:26:00 - [596]
 

Originally by: Svennig


A "neutral" structure which imposes its own mechanics onto fleet fights that take place at it? Are you high right now? You're forcing gate games onto people. If you did it at an ungunned POS it would be a much more neutral fight.


A POS where the defender has access to the shields and has exclusive right to bringing in reinforcements through the bridge? No, we'll definately not agree that a gate is as safe as a friendly POS, even without the gun.

CheckingAmarr
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:27:00 - [597]
 

Edited by: CheckingAmarr on 10/05/2011 21:27:03
Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Cynthia Ysolde

As someone who spends 90% of my time in eve doing exactly this, it's a whole lot more effort than pretty much any other kind of PVP and is incredibly risky. While people do absolutely get ganked on them all the time, it's almost entirely because of laziness on the part of the gankee. I can't tell you how many times I've seen myself or my alts reported in channels over and over and still having carriers etc. jump in to the jumpbridge/cynogen I'm camping. This isn't because it's ~so easy~ to camp cynogens, it's because people are stupid and don't read intel channels. If people actually read intel and scout themselves, it's nearly impossible to catch them.



Quoting this because it's true.


So, uh, if people read intel and scout themselves, they're nearly impossible to catch at JBs/cynogens but not nearly impossible to catch going through a gate? What exactly will your change fix for smart players who use intel and scouts, and wish to avoid combat?

That's right: nothing.

Cynthia Ysolde
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:27:00 - [598]
 

Originally by: FellRaven
Originally by: Malcanis
Edited by: Malcanis on 10/05/2011 21:15:17
I'm genuinely interested to know how having to do a couple of warps between each bridge will "kill 0.0"

No, seriously. How? People live in hi-sec, lo-sec, NPC 0.0 and W-space with no jump bridges at all, but people who live in sov 0.0 can't get by day by day if they have to use a jump gate?

Excuse my scepticism. I trust you will understand if it seems more like you're making a fuss about a very minor change.

EDIT: and to answer the poster directly above: see my sig.


Did you read the bit that said Capitals can't use JBs? Which in effect means you can't defend a Cyno Jammed system with Capital.


or you take it down, jump the capital in, then put it back up? Evens the playing field vs. now when you can basically block out an entire system by putting 20 supers on a jammer pos and just chill

WisdomPanda
Goatriders Horde
The Scapegoats
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:27:00 - [599]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
A wide range of options were considered, among those, different levels of guns on the POS. Everything from changing the fitting requirements to stripping them entirely. At the end of the day, I'm not entirely thrilled about basing smaller scale pvp around POSs. I really like the idea of having it out on the open, at a "neutral" structure like gates. It's much more visible than having to track down a POS that will still give your opponent an advantage.


Is this an official endorsement that gatecamping = CCP's idea of PvP?

Purrp Ledone
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:27:00 - [600]
 

Originally by: CCP Soundwave
Originally by: Purrp Ledone
Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: CCP Soundwave

I think we're doing this in terms of longer scale development, at least to some extent. We're developing the plan, which we'll share with the CSM this month, and hopefully we'll be able to show the players shortly after that.

This is an isolated change that has been slated to happen for a while.


seriously why wasn't "removing guns from JB pos" considered since it's stupid easy to do, does a better job than your proposal, and doesn't increase tedium


CCP Soundwave, can you elaborate on whether this option was considered, and if so, why it was rejected?


A wide range of options were considered, among those, different levels of guns on the POS. Everything from changing the fitting requirements to stripping them entirely. At the end of the day, I'm not entirely thrilled about basing smaller scale pvp around POSs. I really like the idea of having it out on the open, at a "neutral" structure like gates. It's much more visible than having to track down a POS that will still give your opponent an advantage.


Sorry, I actually quoted the wrong post for my question - a few other posts suggested stripping POS guns from JBs as well as making them show up on everyone's overview. I understand your point about "neutral" structures - but as far as I can tell, this proposed change would achieve your small-gang PVP goals without the significant side effects of making logistics more miserable than they already are and effectively boosting caps and supercaps even further relative to subcaps.


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