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Catheryn Martobi
Posted - 2011.05.10 04:06:00 - [1]
 

Has there been any word on when Turrets and nebulae will hit SiSi. My brief research has come up with not even the most far-fetched speculation.

My guess is Wednesday.

Rixiu
The Inuits
Posted - 2011.05.10 09:46:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Rixiu on 10/05/2011 09:46:48
When the summer expansion testing begins, at the earliest, would be my guess.

Sarmatiko
Posted - 2011.05.10 11:36:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Sarmatiko on 10/05/2011 11:39:28
Turrets already in testing (not in Sisi yet).

Riskalot
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.11 10:11:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Sarmatiko
Edited by: Sarmatiko on 10/05/2011 11:39:28
Turrets already in testing (not in Sisi yet).

nice troll.
where, when and who?

Sarmatiko
Posted - 2011.05.11 13:52:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Riskalot
nice troll.
where, when and who?

You know there is other test servers besides Sisi and Duality, don`t you?
Turrets was tested few days ago on one of those servers as I can say from unusual online activity and client contents.
But as known from recent CCP Hammer answers in this thread they will be released not earlier than September/October.

ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.11 17:17:00 - [6]
 

Yeah, so end of year. Crying or Very sad

Catheryn Martobi
Posted - 2011.05.12 03:04:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Catheryn Martobi on 12/05/2011 03:08:15
Features usually hit Sisi about 2-3 months before showing up on Tranquility. My guess is late July, or easy August.

I asked this in the Big Question Thread but it got skipped over. What are the technical challenges preventing them from getting nebulae in there now? Seems like a simple thing; updating all the backgrounds. Unless they are making hundreds of them. Or maybe the ones they showed are just conceptual and they still have to map the nebulae in the galaxy itself before they could render them.

I think that would be cool if they made a bunch of nebulae in a model of New Eden and then took 360 screenshots from the perspective of every single star system. Assuming every image is around 20MB minimum though....

Mara Soratia
Posted - 2011.05.12 09:01:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Catheryn Martobi
Edited by: Catheryn Martobi on 12/05/2011 03:08:15
What are the technical challenges preventing them from getting nebulae in there now? Seems like a simple thing; updating all the backgrounds. Unless they are making hundreds of them.


I believe the problem is that they plan to have the Nebulae as static objects in the galaxy, rather than repeated backgrounds every 4th system, so that you can see a specific nebula regardless of where you are in the region, possibly even changing your perspective on it slightly or seeing it from the opposite side in another part of New Eden.

It's been a while since I watched the information on this, so I may be getting it wrong... Sounds good though, right? xD

Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.13 01:01:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mara Soratia
Originally by: Catheryn Martobi
Edited by: Catheryn Martobi on 12/05/2011 03:08:15
What are the technical challenges preventing them from getting nebulae in there now? Seems like a simple thing; updating all the backgrounds. Unless they are making hundreds of them.


I believe the problem is that they plan to have the Nebulae as static objects in the galaxy, rather than repeated backgrounds every 4th system, so that you can see a specific nebula regardless of where you are in the region, possibly even changing your perspective on it slightly or seeing it from the opposite side in another part of New Eden.

It's been a while since I watched the information on this, so I may be getting it wrong... Sounds good though, right? xD


Impossible. If they had the nebulae as actual rendered objects it would have to look terrible. You can't render that sort of quality on a personal computer in a reasonable amount of time. Also, those backgrounds are HUGE. They couldn't possibly have one for every single system. 50MB per image would be more like it and there will likely only be one unique background per region.

Captian Conrad
Minmatar
Empyrean Warriors
Posted - 2011.05.14 00:36:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Snip


1. Google "Skyboxes"

2. Google "prerendered"
Very Happy

Yvan Ratamnim
Posted - 2011.05.14 03:33:00 - [11]
 

LOL you really missed the point of the new nebulas there not 1 per region static backgrounds, as you move through a region you move through the nebula, and the background adjusts per system

this was already said at fanfest for those that missed it.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.05.14 04:43:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Yvan Ratamnim
LOL you really missed the point of the new nebulas there not 1 per region static backgrounds, as you move through a region you move through the nebula, and the background adjusts per system

this was already said at fanfest for those that missed it.


^This

The nebula will be different in every system. Each region will have it's own "feel", but each system will have a different skybox. The graphical assets will be huge of course, but they will be awesome.

Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.14 22:45:00 - [13]
 

Again, this is impossible. Your suggesting that every system gets a pre-rendered skybox. How big do you think these skyboxes are? 10mb? 20mb? 50? That's anywhere from 50-250GB? And it can only be compressed so much. The other possibility suggested was real-time rendered nebula which wouldn't look nearly as good as those screens we saw. Besides that one of the devs said these were being rendered by some company using super-computers, which implied hi-def pre-rendered images.

I just don't see any way for them to deliver a unique background for every single star system.

Bevil Smyth
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.15 10:13:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Again, this is impossible. Your suggesting that every system gets a pre-rendered skybox. How big do you think these skyboxes are? 10mb? 20mb? 50? That's anywhere from 50-250GB? And it can only be compressed so much. The other possibility suggested was real-time rendered nebula which wouldn't look nearly as good as those screens we saw. Besides that one of the devs said these were being rendered by some company using super-computers, which implied hi-def pre-rendered images.

I just don't see any way for them to deliver a unique background for every single star system.

How are you getting these sizes you keep quoting anyway (im not saying your wrong) do you speak from authority or is it an arbitrary figure you quote?

OverlordY
Posted - 2011.05.15 16:39:00 - [15]
 

They have said the new nebulae will be pre rendered cause they take ages to real time render.

Baljos Arnjak
Posted - 2011.05.16 12:07:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Again, this is impossible. Your suggesting that every system gets a pre-rendered skybox. How big do you think these skyboxes are? 10mb? 20mb? 50? That's anywhere from 50-250GB? And it can only be compressed so much. The other possibility suggested was real-time rendered nebula which wouldn't look nearly as good as those screens we saw. Besides that one of the devs said these were being rendered by some company using super-computers, which implied hi-def pre-rendered images.

I just don't see any way for them to deliver a unique background for every single star system.


There are other techniques to get the same visual effect without huge performance or size hits. I'm only speculating here, but this is what I'd start with. Have the normal plane-jane starfield on the skybox. Then have an object, probably a plane or part of a sphere and have the pre-rendered texture of the nebula mapped to it. All the client would have to know is the location, scale and what textures to use for the skybox and the plane.

If you want to have a nebula visible from the other side of the galaxy you can figure out where it's supposed to be in the sky and place it there, scaled up or down according to distance. Then add some darkening or alpha via shader. The tricky part comes down to managing mip-map levels to keep the object looking good at different zoom levels of the camera, and problems with perspective as you move about in the "level" i.e. solar system.

You could probably do all of this in the shader itself by having it project the nebula texture onto the skybox texture. With some fancy shader programming, you could probably even get all of the effects from the first method.

Either way, you're not dealing with thousands of different skyboxes that you would have to download and you're not dealing with loading the system down trying to real-time render something as complex as a nebula. If they're using supercomputers to render it's because they set up an extremely complex scene with stuff like accurate volumetric lighting, cloud simulation, light difraction, maybe dopler shift, stuff like that that takes serious number crunching power. The image they get from that is the image we get as a texture.

Anyway, just my .02 isk worth Very Happy

Catheryn Martobi
Posted - 2011.05.23 02:56:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Baljos Arnjak
Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Again, this is impossible. Your suggesting that every system gets a pre-rendered skybox. How big do you think these skyboxes are? 10mb? 20mb? 50? That's anywhere from 50-250GB? And it can only be compressed so much. The other possibility suggested was real-time rendered nebula which wouldn't look nearly as good as those screens we saw. Besides that one of the devs said these were being rendered by some company using super-computers, which implied hi-def pre-rendered images.

I just don't see any way for them to deliver a unique background for every single star system.


There are other techniques to get the same visual effect without huge performance or size hits. I'm only speculating here, but this is what I'd start with. Have the normal plane-jane starfield on the skybox. Then have an object, probably a plane or part of a sphere and have the pre-rendered texture of the nebula mapped to it. All the client would have to know is the location, scale and what textures to use for the skybox and the plane.

If you want to have a nebula visible from the other side of the galaxy you can figure out where it's supposed to be in the sky and place it there, scaled up or down according to distance. Then add some darkening or alpha via shader. The tricky part comes down to managing mip-map levels to keep the object looking good at different zoom levels of the camera, and problems with perspective as you move about in the "level" i.e. solar system.

You could probably do all of this in the shader itself by having it project the nebula texture onto the skybox texture. With some fancy shader programming, you could probably even get all of the effects from the first method.

Either way, you're not dealing with thousands of different skyboxes that you would have to download and you're not dealing with loading the system down trying to real-time render something as complex as a nebula. If they're using supercomputers to render it's because they set up an extremely complex scene with stuff like accurate volumetric lighting, cloud simulation, light difraction, maybe dopler shift, stuff like that that takes serious number crunching power. The image they get from that is the image we get as a texture.

Anyway, just my .02 isk worth Very Happy


That went over my head so I will assume you know more than me and defer to your judgement.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.05.23 05:26:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: OverlordY
They have said the new nebulae will be pre rendered cause they take ages to real time render.


well yeah.

just like normal maps are made before they are put in the game. Or any kind of texture map. Rerendering a texture every second would be stupid. People bake Ambient occlusion for a reason.

The thing is every single 5000 systems will have thier own render. and it will update as you go. The pictures themself are taing days if not weeks to render as their own.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.05.23 11:44:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Riskalot

nice troll.
where, when and who?


(Some) Turrets are on Duality. You can't undock with turrets fitted, but if you have a ship already in space..

Flying an Ishtar, 425mm AC model was there, but without a texture. Retracts when in warpugh I'd prefer retracting when there's no locked targets...

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.05.23 19:01:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Kyra Felann on 23/05/2011 19:01:15
Planet textures are also unique and pre-rendered. They said it took a couple of weeks to render them and the resource maps, if I remember correctly (and it's quite possible I don't, but it was something along those lines).

I'm sure nebulae will be similar.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.05.26 05:03:00 - [21]
 

7500 systems, each with a unique skybox. If the skybox was relatively detailed at, say, 10MB per system, we're looking at 75000MB or 75GB of data. They could apply fractal compression and reduce that to 2GB of data.

But this is only speculation. I'm curious as to how it works out in production :)

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2011.05.28 15:26:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 28/05/2011 15:27:19

Okay I'm not a graphics art guy nor a programmer but I'm pretty sure you guys are looking at this all the wrong way regarding nebulae effects.

There don't need to be individual skyboxes. I know that some poor artist did not draw up 7000 skyboxes.

More likely they have a "region" skybox that has an overlayed alpha layer that gets scaled dependent upon how close you are to one side of the region or the other.

For those of you that have never been in photoshop before, what I'm saying is that you have a layer on the skybox which is a general color scheme and background (galaxy) stars. Then for each side of the skybox you've got a semi-transparent image of the regional nebulae and stars that will scale larger on one side and smaller on the other sides as you change your position in the region.

As you move from one side of the region, say from Nebula A to Nebula B, Nebula A scales smaller behind you as you go through stargates towards Nebula B, and Nebula B scales larger before you.

That's my theory. Requires only a region backdrop and a couple nebula overlays that are scaled according to regional position. A minimum of space is needed and no complex rendering.

EDIT - Looks like Baljos Arnjak came to more or less the same conclusion. So I will add to that, /agree.

Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.28 17:18:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 28/05/2011 15:27:19

Okay I'm not a graphics art guy nor a programmer but I'm pretty sure you guys are looking at this all the wrong way regarding nebulae effects.

There don't need to be individual skyboxes. I know that some poor artist did not draw up 7000 skyboxes.

More likely they have a "region" skybox that has an overlayed alpha layer that gets scaled dependent upon how close you are to one side of the region or the other.

For those of you that have never been in photoshop before, what I'm saying is that you have a layer on the skybox which is a general color scheme and background (galaxy) stars. Then for each side of the skybox you've got a semi-transparent image of the regional nebulae and stars that will scale larger on one side and smaller on the other sides as you change your position in the region.

As you move from one side of the region, say from Nebula A to Nebula B, Nebula A scales smaller behind you as you go through stargates towards Nebula B, and Nebula B scales larger before you.

That's my theory. Requires only a region backdrop and a couple nebula overlays that are scaled according to regional position. A minimum of space is needed and no complex rendering.

EDIT - Looks like Baljos Arnjak came to more or less the same conclusion. So I will add to that, /agree.


My idea to get around the production times was they create the nebulae and clouds and whatnot to scale for the star cluster and have certain rendering points wherever there is a star in the cluster. This would provide the most realistic effect, but your idea would produce the lowest overhead. Considering how much less overhead I would say it's a pretty good guess.


 

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