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Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.09 01:00:00 - [1]
 

New type of scan probe that can be launched as normal and moved to any position in space. Once there, it can be deployed for Corporation or Player as a Beacon visible to Corporation and Alliance, or Current Fleet and the deploying individual respectively. The Beacon will last up to two hours, and provide a Warp-in Point similar to an, (scanned down to 100%), anomoly. Use prior to deployment will be same as for a Combat Scan Probe, with limited scanning abilities of 0.25 AU and low scanning Strength.

Danika Princip
Minmatar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.05.09 01:11:00 - [2]
 

Why?

What are you trying to solve?

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.09 07:27:00 - [3]
 

Solve? Nothing directly.

The idea is to have the ability to warp to an unknown location in space, and to have various other uses besides. You can use it to create safespots, fleet rally points, drop points, and whatever else you happen to like it for. It's a tool.

Currently, we can only warp to Celestial Objects, or scanned down ships, anomalies, and the like. Safespots are only available by bookmarking during warp between two points, or logging off in space and bookmarking on login. That's actually quite limited, and doesn't really provide a realistic means of navigation.

EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
Posted - 2011.05.09 12:58:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Mars Theran
doesn't really provide a realistic means of navigation.

What is realistic about warp navigation and more importantly how is your proposal more realistic?

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.10 02:48:00 - [5]
 

Warp Navigation doesn't have to be realistic, as this happens to be a science-fiction oriented game in space.

Realistic idea? What isn't realistic about using scanning technology to direct a probe to a point in space, and deploy it as a warpable beacon. You warp to beacons in missions? in anomalies? Well, this isn't really that different, and may be considered a covert beacon in that it broadcasts a signature only usable by a limited number of people. It isn't really that hard to grasp.

Max Kolonko
Caldari
Worm Nation
Ash Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.13 19:44:00 - [6]
 

No, the idea of EVE is that you need to know exactly where you are warping (need 100% singal on it) to warp there. You have to actually been there before (bm) habe someone bee there (warp to fleet memebr) or it has to be other object that game put there (anomaly)

if you allow people to just warp anywhere they want, whats to stop them from warping 100000AU from sun?

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.14 18:25:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Max Kolonko
No, the idea of EVE is that you need to know exactly where you are warping (need 100% singal on it) to warp there. You have to actually been there before (bm) habe someone bee there (warp to fleet memebr) or it has to be other object that game put there (anomaly)

if you allow people to just warp anywhere they want, whats to stop them from warping 100000AU from sun?


Why shouldn't they be able to?

I actually think having the ability to quickly set a warp point through an interface like that used for probe launchers would be nice. How do you think they explored the galaxy in the first place? Has it occured to you, that using a telescop to look at a far away system, is also a means of setting that destination as a location to travel to? You can determine distance, travel time at velocity, and any number of other factors, to make that opoint your destination.

I'm suggesting a balance between that and nothing at all, which is what we have currently. Drop a probe, or even three, send them to a position in space, cycle them once, and they send you back a 100% signal on their location so you can warp to it using current mechanics. I think that's pretty reasonable.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.05.15 12:05:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Mars Theran
Originally by: Max Kolonko
if you allow people to just warp anywhere they want, whats to stop them from warping 100000AU from sun?


Why shouldn't they be able to?



Safespots that are effectively unprobeable are bad.Rolling Eyes

Replace AFK cloaking with 100000AU safespotting.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.15 13:02:00 - [9]
 

I think that the OP is using too many 'in story' reasons to justify this proposal. What makes you think that all original explorations where not done by warping to celestials?

At any rate, any discussion in strictly story terms is going to inevitably turn into a Enterprise vs Star Destroyer argument.

Game wise, what about this can't be achieved by simply being able to share bookmarks?

The only thing you won't be able to do is to dynamically create warp in points without going there yourself, which I think is a good thing, as I sense that this can be exploited. You've essentially made all warp bubbling traps useless. Good if you are the kind of player always getting caught in them, bad for those who use them. Net-net bad for the economy and play balance. If your enemies spent the time to bubble up all routes in a system that you have not been in before, you *should* be caught, and not be able to just arbitrarily warp around to safe spots continuously.

NOT supported.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.15 19:07:00 - [10]
 

As far as I know, it's not possibly to go 100000AU from the sun anymore, if it ever was. I know players used to continuously log off to create distant bookmarks in space, and have heard of some ship being so far out, it would not be feasible for them to warp back. A bit silly that.

The Earth solar system is roughly 100 AU across, with orbital ice and debris well beyond that, which is known as the Oort cloud. The Oort cloud is something which would be common to nearly any solar system, and may extend as much as 50AU beyond the outermost planets. Concievably, this could be used to prevent 100% scanning of 'safespots' beyond a certain distance from the sun. Signal loss on probes due to interference from the Oort cloud, could prevent scanning farther out for similar reasons.

There are some very larger solar systems in EVE of course. Some of them being more than twice the size of our solar system. Teonusude is a good example of this, and I'm sure there are quite a few others, so distance has to be determined in a dynamic fashion, being based mostly off a certain allowable distance from the outermost planetary object. I would say more than 20AU, but less than 50AU. It's probably already determined.

Any obstacles, interference, or ships in the area a scan is attempted would simply return a Red result, with less than 70%, and quite possibly a random number under 100%

As for getting around bubbles and gatecamps, I've done it many times, and no matter how much you bubble up a system, (barring it has all celestials beyond scan range from a gate, with no other means of detecting what is at the gate except eliminating numbers with regards to count in local and known player locations), it is possible to slip by.

Bubbles are limited in their ability to catch ships, and generally only fuction well from one angle, which means that you have to account for every possible warp in, and get them right on target. Even then, you might miss that Covert Op's. This isn't an exploit by any means, and if it costs people a few tears, well I'm not disappointed.

You might also want to note that a player has to drop these covert beacons as probes, and operate them as such, then place them where he/she wants them and run a cycle. Until the Probes are deployed as Covert Beacons on 100%, you can see them on your D-Scan, and you will know what they are and why they're there. I'd say that's pretty fair.

Seamus Donohue
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.16 07:42:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Seamus Donohue on 16/05/2011 07:42:48
Originally by: Max Kolonko
if you allow people to just warp anywhere they want, whats to stop them from warping 100000AU from sun?
The Tyrannis Deepsafe Nerf.

When the Tyrannis expansion went live, the Poseidon Method of making deefsafespots was disabled. Sometime during the expansion, all objects, including bookmarks, were moved inwards to the Deepsafe Limit; this limit is a sphere centered on the local star with a radius of "the celestial object most distant from the local star PLUS 20 astronomical units". So, for example, if the celestial object furthest away from the local star is a regional stargate 67 AU from the star, then the Deepsafe Limit is a sphere 87 AU in radius.

If this proposal were to be implemented, it would be a simple matter to limit the probe-beacon to the Deepsafe Limit. Additionally, it would put everyone on equal footing with players who were collecting old deepsafespots from pre-Tyrannis, and who still have those deepsafespots today. Granted, those deepsafespots would have been moved to the edge of the limit, but old players could very well have collections of bookmarks surrounding a solar system sitting on that sphere (because their bookmarks were moved in to that sphere during Tyrannis). For large solar systems, that's still a LOT of volume to hide in; not impossible to be found by probes, just a little bit difficult. Combat probes are really only going to have problems in solar systems that have celestial objects 300 or 400 AU from each other.

Supported.

Kwashi
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
Posted - 2011.05.16 12:53:00 - [12]
 

When you need a fleet warpin, this would replace the need to have a friendly ship at the destination, with the need to have had a friendly ship at that location some time in the last 2 hours...

I can see lots of uses for this to get around the current crushing unworkability of bookmark propagation. Then again, might be better to just fix bookmarks.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.16 13:20:00 - [13]
 

Make them findable and destructible by enemies and I'll support.
( but not warpable by enemies )
A ship that is used as a warp target has all these characteristics.
That should be preserved.

I'm concerned though about the case where if a bubble is dropped on the routes from a gate to every other celestial in the system. Currently that will snag anyone that doesn't have a saved safe spot bookmark. Which is good, say the system is my alliances home. (sure normally the gate would be bubbled too)
With arbitrary probes then I can make safes without actually going there. Which is bad. That eliminates any "home turf" advantage to people who do know the system, and chasing people around in the system can be extrodinarily difficult, making hiding in any system too easy.

One tweak would be to make probes get stopped by bubbles. But that would have consequences to scanners. But perhaps that isn't a bad thing. ?


 

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