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DestroyerOfRocks
Posted - 2011.05.07 16:55:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: DestroyerOfRocks on 07/05/2011 16:59:36
Linkage

Stumbled across this article over at massively, re. griefers and their motivations. I must say I'm in agreeemnt with the majority opinion over there, most notably Tempes Magus' comments, which are right on imho. What do you think??

Triskie
Caldari
Peek-A-Boo Bombers
Posted - 2011.05.07 17:43:00 - [2]
 

A very bias unbalanced look equating in-game behaviour with real life behaviour. Without the author actually giving details in what constitutes griefing its difficult to see his point. Online behaviour can be pretty moronic at the best of times but most people can either laugh it off or use the tools provided to ignore them forever. You have to remember this is a competitive game so throwing tantrums when you lose ship/ISK/money/worthless-salvage is only ever going to earn you ridicule. Rightly so too, as it shows a lack of character.

Just my two isk.


Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:03:00 - [3]
 

The author does a horrible job of distinguishing between greifing and competitive play, especially when it comes to EVE.

Losing **** in EVE is not getting griefed.
Getting war dec'd is likely not getting griefed.
Being scanned down mission running and getting ganked is also likely not getting griefed.
Suicide ganking for profit, not greifing.

Hulkageddon... mostly griefing.
Continual war dec'ing for the lulz, not to drive out competition... griefing.
Suicide ganking for lulz, griefing.

A lot of metagame **** is griefing, imo.
Thieving is often griefing, since the tools for preventing it are so poor.
Spying, eh, grey area for me, again, so hard to prevent it, that it's just like punching a baby in a basket.

I do generally agree with the premise that people that greif, not use the game rules to extract advantage, don't grief IRL almost solely because of social rules.



Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:05:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Astenion on 07/05/2011 18:05:26
I've been saying this for years about gamers, forum trolls, griefers, etc.

If you do something to someone else that ruins their gaming experience as an exploit, online experience, etc., you are a douchebag in real life and not just in the game. I really, really can't stand people who say, "LOL IT'S JUST THE INTERNET!"

If I call you an idiot or a moron it's because I think you're acting like an idiot or a moron, not because I'm trolling/flaming you. I'd tell you in person because that's the impression I have of you. People who try to separate the two are quite literally hiding behind their keyboard warrior prowess. Granted, when people lose their minds and go off on these people on vent, it's hilarious to listen to but you kinda have to admit that they have a point.

People only grief because they're out of reach of their victims and they simply justify this behavior as it being "just the internet". Think about it; if someone talked to you in person how they sometimes talk to you in forums and in games, you'd be pretty upset, right? It's always best to respond to someone as you would if you were in person, imo.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:06:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Mortania
The author does a horrible job of distinguishing between greifing and competitive play, especially when it comes to EVE.


I would say to the author, there IS no distinction. They are the same thing.

Honestly, being a not-so-armchair psychologist, the author is the one in need of some therapy. The inability to separate fantasy from reality ("real life" from "eve") is a clear sign of psychosis.

FeralShadow
NME1
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:06:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: FeralShadow on 07/05/2011 18:08:44
Yeah... I too fail to see the link between game behaviors and RL behaviors. As a matter of fact, for me they're completely opposite. While I love to pvp in game, I have never fought in real life (not even in highschool). While I'll smack someone in local on occasion, I never talk down to someone in RL. Also, this part:

Are you secretly frustrated with a banal and disturbingly meaningless white-collar existence? Does releasing your inner bleep in a (theoretically) anonymous online environment scratch the itches made manifest by a minivan, 2.3 kids, and the otherwise inescapable confines of suburbia?

Doesn't describe myself whatsoever. I'm a college student, have no kids, dont work (just go to school). Are there people that are like this? Sure. Is everybody who pvps or "griefs" like this? Definately not. It's important not to stereotype every greifer in the same category as "The Mittani" as the article puts it.

In the end, it comes down to "do you believe morals are a constant across all medias of interaction, or do you believe morals are relative to the situations". Those who think morals are constant will always say that griefers have issues IRL. Those who think morals are relative will always say "LOL ITS A GAME". So.. there is no solution. Can we stop going around in circles now?

-Feral

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:10:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: FeralShadow
Yeah... I too fail to see the link between game behaviors and RL behaviors. As a matter of fact, for me they're completely opposite. While I love to pvp in game, I have never fought in real life (not even in highschool). While I'll smack someone in local on occasion, I never talk down to someone in RL. Also, this part:

Are you secretly frustrated with a banal and disturbingly meaningless white-collar existence? Does releasing your inner bleep in a (theoretically) anonymous online environment scratch the itches made manifest by a minivan, 2.3 kids, and the otherwise inescapable confines of suburbia?

Doesn't describe myself whatsoever. I'm a college student, have no kids, dont work (just go to school). Are there people that are like this? Sure. Is everybody who pvps or "griefs" like this? Definately not. It's important not to stereotype every greifer in the same category as "The Mittani" as the article puts it.

-Feral


Great insight, but I think he's talking about pure griefing, not harassing in accordance with gameplay. It's kinda hard to grief in Eve when there are so few rules, but the communication in my opinion is where most of the griefing happens.

Being sarcastic in local is one thing, but deliberately trying to ruin someone's day or constantly harassing them with personal insults in my opinion is griefing.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:14:00 - [8]
 

That's my point though, PvP and FPS's shouldn't even enter into the conversation. That's what the author totally blew it on.

Competitive play is completely normal and human.
Competitive play ISN'T griefing.

Griefing does exist and happens not infrequently in EVE, and the people that engage in the griefing are douchebags, IRL they are douchebags, even if they don't act like it, they are just better socialized IRL to not act out on their douchebag instincts.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:15:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Feligast on 07/05/2011 18:15:39
Originally by: Astenion
Originally by: FeralShadow
Yeah... I too fail to see the link between game behaviors and RL behaviors. As a matter of fact, for me they're completely opposite. While I love to pvp in game, I have never fought in real life (not even in highschool). While I'll smack someone in local on occasion, I never talk down to someone in RL. Also, this part:

Are you secretly frustrated with a banal and disturbingly meaningless white-collar existence? Does releasing your inner bleep in a (theoretically) anonymous online environment scratch the itches made manifest by a minivan, 2.3 kids, and the otherwise inescapable confines of suburbia?

Doesn't describe myself whatsoever. I'm a college student, have no kids, dont work (just go to school). Are there people that are like this? Sure. Is everybody who pvps or "griefs" like this? Definately not. It's important not to stereotype every greifer in the same category as "The Mittani" as the article puts it.

-Feral


Great insight, but I think he's talking about pure griefing, not harassing in accordance with gameplay. It's kinda hard to grief in Eve when there are so few rules, but the communication in my opinion is where most of the griefing happens.

Being sarcastic in local is one thing, but deliberately trying to ruin someone's day or constantly harassing them with personal insults in my opinion is griefing.


My belief on the difference here is that he believes any "negative" action is a "deliberate attempt to ruin someone's day." Rereading the article, if it is not a very long troll, the author REALLY needs some help before he can stunt impressionable people's emotional growth with this irresponsible "psychological" advice.

FeralShadow
NME1
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:15:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: FeralShadow on 07/05/2011 18:18:32
Yes that is true. Where does one draw the line on griefing in Eve I guess is the better question. A pirate taking advantage of a mission runner in low sec that "doesn't know better" can be considered greifing to a lot of people, but to those pirates and many other pvpers, they see it as taking advantage of a situation. When it comes to eve, it has to be pretty extreme to be greifing, and constantly harassing or war deccing a corp/alliance to cause them to disband "just because you dont like them" I think is classified as greifing in anybody's book. That being said, how many of those "true griefers" do you really see in game? There's a few, certainly. It's certainly not the norm.

Really what I get out of the article is that eve is built around greifing, according to the author. Could you imagine eve online without all the instances of "greifing" that he lists? It'd be boring as hell.

-Feral

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:18:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: FeralShadow
Yes that is true. Where does one draw the line on griefing in Eve I guess is the better question. A pirate taking advantage of a mission runner in low sec that "doesn't know better" can be considered greifing to a lot of people, but to those pirates and many other pvpers, they see it as taking advantage of a situation. When it comes to eve, it has to be pretty extreme to be greifing, and constantly harassing or war deccing a corp/alliance to cause them to disband "just because you dont like them" I think is classified as greifing in anybody's book. That being said, how many of those "true griefers" do you really see in game? There's a few, certainly. It's certainly not the norm.

-Feral


A thoughtful question. Certainly there are true greifers in EVE.. those who go out of their way, on a consistent basis, to harass a player or corporation can be viewed as them, as well as keyloggers and account hackers. How many in game? Not as many as some would think, but it's difficult to put any kind of statistic on it.

Astenion
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:24:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Astenion on 07/05/2011 18:26:32
This poses another question: would NBSI be considered griefing? In my book, absolutely not.

It's kinda like getting mad at the world for being dishonest enough to steal your wallet when you left it on the bar and went home. Is shooting someone who wanders into your territory a NEGATIVE thing? Well, for the unlucky guy/girl who wandered into a pirate corp's den, then yes, it would be very negative to them. However, for the pirates it's a positive thing; they get loot and kill mails to further their reputation among players both friendly and hostile, and they also have to make a living. If they're pirates, they probably can't access high sec missions in order to generate gobs of money with no threat to their personal safety, and they need to make money somehow. So no, I wouldn't call it griefing at all.

Eve lets us set our own rules and we have; as long as there is no undue harassment or personal harm done, it is not griefing in my opinion.

Ghoest
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:25:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Ghoest on 07/05/2011 18:34:49
Edited by: Ghoest on 07/05/2011 18:34:06
I didnt bother reading it.

Im guessing they defined griefing too broadly and its not worth reading.

Essentially noting in 0.0 is ever grief. Probably one in 1000 people out there doesnt understand that staying alive is the challenge.

Almost all high sec kills outside of some wars are griefing, although ganking a ship carrying 10 bill in goods probably isnt griefing, its profitable move against someone who obviously is aware of risks they are taking.

Low sec kills are obviously where the questions arrive. Taking out cane you find cruising around in Amamake clearly isnt griefing.
Blowing up a low SP cruise trying to rat in a back water system clearly is griefing.

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:28:00 - [14]
 

That is a terrible article. Sounds like either goons jihaded his mining boat or he got caught in a recruitment scam, or something.

Griefing, as he defines it, is literally not possible in eve.

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:29:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
I didnt bother reading it.

Im guessing they defined griefing too broadly and its not worth reading.


Yeah, it's a rant.

TL;DR
Making someone feel bad is griefing. If you grief in game, you would grief IRL if you could.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:37:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Mortania

TL;DR
Making someone feel bad is griefing. If you grief in game, you would grief IRL if you could, and you are a terrible person in real life for even thinking about it.


Expanded that a little, but you had it right.

FeralShadow
NME1
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:39:00 - [17]
 

See that's the point most dont get... Living isn't a guaranteed right. Unlike most MMO's where living is a "guaranteed" until you consent to pvp, in Eve, it's NOT. you have to work to live just like everybody else, and depending on where you are, it takes different amounts of effort. I think that's what most are missing when they think about all this greifing.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:40:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Ghoest
Almost all high sec kills outside of some wars are griefing


Uhm.. no? Suicide gankings are not griefing in any way, shape, or form.

Originally by: Ghoest
Low sec kills are obviously where the questions arrive. Taking out cane you find cruising around in Amamake clearly isnt griefing.
Blowing up a low SP cruise trying to rat in a back water system clearly is griefing.



Again.. no. You're far too broadly defining griefing as well.

Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.05.07 18:50:00 - [19]
 

I would reply to the article but it requires me to "register and log in" - f that.

Person writing the article makes some good points but then degenerates to tears and mud flinging toward the end. Yes greifing brakes human morals but someone should really explain to the guy what the letters R and P stand for in MMORPG. Srsly.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.07 19:02:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 07/05/2011 19:09:30
If you enjoy ****ing people off in Eve then you enjoy ****ing people off, yes, in real life. That you use a medium or a tool to provoke reactions from people doesn't change the fact.


Lightningshade
Caldari
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2011.05.07 19:18:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 07/05/2011 19:09:30
If you enjoy ****ing people off in Eve then you enjoy ****ing people off, yes, in real life. That you use a medium or a tool to provoke reactions from people doesn't change the fact.




Your father dresses me funny. I would tell this to you IRL.


Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
Posted - 2011.05.07 19:21:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 07/05/2011 19:09:30
If you enjoy ****ing people off in Eve then you enjoy ****ing people off, yes, in real life. That you use a medium or a tool to provoke reactions from people doesn't change the fact.




M - Massively
M - Multiplayer
O - Online
R
P
G - Game

Fill in the blanks. It will help ease your pain and mis-understanding.

Lt Angus
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.07 19:36:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Lt Angus on 07/05/2011 19:36:57
Kids and old people take games way too seriously

Daniela Darr
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.07 19:42:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Daniela Darr on 07/05/2011 19:45:40
Originally by: Wacktopia

R
P


Behaviour is behaviour, be it spoken, with acts, virtual or whatever. Is it ok if I kill someone IRL but say I was just role playing and wouldn't do that if it was the real me? Do those magical words make everything ok?

An actor may also RP a villain but there's no people on the other side that really suffer from his well played evilness. That's a lot of difference.

Originally by: Mortania

Losing **** in EVE is not getting griefed.
Getting war dec'd is likely not getting griefed.
Being scanned down mission running and getting ganked is also likely not getting griefed.
Suicide ganking for profit, not greifing.

Hulkageddon... mostly griefing.
Continual war dec'ing for the lulz, not to drive out competition... griefing.
Suicide ganking for lulz, griefing.

A lot of metagame **** is griefing, imo.
Thieving is often griefing, since the tools for preventing it are so poor.
Spying, eh, grey area for me, again, so hard to prevent it, that it's just like punching a baby in a basket.

I do generally agree with the premise that people that greif, not use the game rules to extract advantage, don't grief IRL almost solely because of social rules.


I agree with this.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.07 19:56:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Daniela Darr
An actor may also RP a villain but there's no people on the other side that really suffer from his well played evilness. That's a lot of difference.



So tell me.. who suffers from actions taken in Eve? If you are suffering because someone infiltrated your pixel corp, stole your pixel money, and blew up your pixel ship, again, your ability to separate fantasy and reality seems to be lacking.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.07 19:56:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 07/05/2011 20:15:55
Originally by: Wacktopia
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2 on 07/05/2011 19:09:30
If you enjoy ****ing people off in Eve then you enjoy ****ing people off, yes, in real life. That you use a medium or a tool to provoke reactions from people doesn't change the fact.




M - Massively
M - Multiplayer
O - Online
R
P
G - Game

Fill in the blanks. It will help ease your pain and mis-understanding.

Wow. We are on two separate planes here. All I can ask is that you re-read my post.

Edit (I'll try to explain it): Taking joy in upsetting other people has NOTHING to do with the tools you use to accomplish it. If you enjoy upsetting people you enjoy doing it in real life (not in-game). Moreover, you're enjoying upsetting real people, not make-belief characters. There is absolutely nothing "in-game" about this.

You'll first need to understand this before we can even have a conversation on this. Spouting that it's an "MMORPG" is irrelevant.


Daniela Darr
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.07 20:05:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Daniela Darr on 07/05/2011 20:06:43
Originally by: Feligast
So tell me.. who suffers from actions taken in Eve? If you are suffering because someone infiltrated your pixel corp, stole your pixel money, and blew up your pixel ship, again, your ability to separate fantasy and reality seems to be lacking.

I'm not sure, if I read the posts here there's a regular occurence of people complaining, ranting ("delicious tears"), quitting EVE because of griefing .. or is all that RPed too?

I think there's a fine line between using game mechanics, sometimes forcing people to learn things the "hard way" on the one hand and real griefing on the other. The mere fact that some kinds of griefing can be petitioned and is frowned upon by GMs itself already proves that this is indeed the case.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.07 20:10:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Feligast on 07/05/2011 20:14:45
I'm certainly not arguing that there is not a line out there between the as advertised "harsh gameplay" and griefing. I'm contending that most people are putting the line much farther to the side of "I don't like it, so it MUST be griefing" side than it truly is. Different MMOs have different definitions of griefing, and Eve's is the most lenient of them all.

EDIT: Added not to the first sentence for clarification.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.05.07 20:10:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 07/05/2011 20:15:08
Originally by: Daniela Darr
Behaviour is behaviour, be it spoken, with acts, virtual or whatever. Is it ok if I kill someone IRL but say I was just role playing and wouldn't do that if it was the real me?
That's not role-playing, by very definition, so no.
Quote:
An actor may also RP a villain but there's no people on the other side that really suffer from his well played evilness. That's a lot of difference.
Yes, the difference is very often that the receiver can't distinguish between play and reality, and thinks that an attack on his virtual persona is an attack on his real person. Other than that, there is no difference in RP: if behaviour is behaviour, then Schwarzenegger is a mass-murdering emotionless psychotic (or robot), because that's how he behaves in his films.

What you're trying to get at, it seems, is intention: the intention of Arnold's RP behaviour isn't to hurt people (but I'm sure that some way, somewhere, it does), so it firmly remains in the "play" section. The intention of an actual griefer is to grief… but then again, that's not role-playing — he's not playing a griefer, he is one. The problem is that some people have a hard time distinguishing between RP and RL intention because the singular acts and activities they produce are the exact same.
Quote:
I'm not sure, if I read the posts here there's a regular occurence of people complaining, ranting ("delicious tears"), quitting EVE because of griefing .. or is all that RPed too?
It can be. The problem here is that it's a multiplayer game, and the "game" part isn't symmetrical. The acts that produced those tears may very well be RP; the tears themselves might not be; the forum bravado ridiculing a player who didn't understand what kind of game he was playing may or may not be. In general, though, quitting a game such as EVE because of griefing is — most likely — a vast overreaction, and it's this spectacular over-the-top reaction to normal gameplay that makes people laugh.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.05.07 20:12:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Feligast
Originally by: Daniela Darr
An actor may also RP a villain but there's no people on the other side that really suffer from his well played evilness. That's a lot of difference.



So tell me.. who suffers from actions taken in Eve? If you are suffering because someone infiltrated your pixel corp, stole your pixel money, and blew up your pixel ship, again, your ability to separate fantasy and reality seems to be lacking.

Well, in a sort of misdirected way, even the "death" of those pixels cause suffering, usually of the wallet form. We do pay to play, whether it be time or money or both.

Perhaps a little extreme viewpoint, but some people may feel this way.


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