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Laruen Pleides
Posted - 2011.05.06 20:01:00 - [1]
 

Among the anti-marco/anti-botting threads that are going on, I like the info that is in the one posted by NinjaSpud. Reading the quotes from the botters whining on their macro forums about being banned is pleasant at the very least.

I've voiced my concern recently in regards to the issue of how doing the same thing repeatedly might get one falsely accused of being a bot.
When it gets down to it, the most efficient way to make isk with your equipment is to run yourself in a bot-like manner. Whether you read, watch TV, etc. when mining, it just gets down to doing the same thing repeatedly.

I agree that a 1st offense heavy punishment like perma-ban would be nice, but with all the complaints about CCP that I see on the forums, I'd like a bit more reassurance that they would do their jobs accurately if they are going to perma-ban someone or take them off Concords list of people to protect (an idea that is really appealing, though I'm not sure how good it would be). How should botting accusations be handled if a persons account is on the line?

Another set of ideas brought up in the other thread had to do with how to make it harder for macro writers and users by making mining more interactive.
These included getting rid of belts and essentially making them something that can be found only as gravimetric signatures.
Considering that the Exploration tutorials for new players give you the tools to do something like that, maybe it's not such a bad idea.
It was also suggested that when you arrive at an asteroid belt, that it be full of dud rocks, which would cause the user to have to actually look for the valuable ore. The drawback on that would seem to be that it would require some reworking of survey scanners, as macro program writers could probably very easily overcome that.

It would be nice if something could be done to combat bot-mining that would at the same time make things a bit more interactive for those doing the mining. I don't know how any of the pirates view camping when it comes to the "interactive" factor, but my guess is, judging by popularity, that even something as simple as a gate-**** is not so simple that you can just AFK while doing it.

In the short term, are there any modifications that could be done to make mining A) harder for bots, and B) more interactive, that would not involve a lot of programming and development by CCP?

Is it even worth asking CCP for such changes to be made?




Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.05.06 20:07:00 - [2]
 

Bots in null sec are able to probe out radars/mags and run them and then use codebreakers and such to hack cans. A simple grav won't do much.

Mooney92
Minmatar
nul-li-fy
B O R G
Posted - 2011.05.06 20:13:00 - [3]
 

No one cares about bots, go roleplay someone elses Eula.

Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.05.06 20:45:00 - [4]
 

they should make mining asteroids like mining on PI, have a heat map and direct your lasers to the hotter spots for better efficiency. that way the bots are possibly less efficient at mining than actual meatsacks.

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.05.06 20:50:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Mooney92
No one cares about bots, go roleplay someone elses Eula.

Angry botter alt spotted.

T'Laar Bok
Posted - 2011.05.06 20:51:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Ayieka
they should make mining asteroids like mining on PI, have a heat map and direct your lasers to the hotter spots for better efficiency. that way the bots are possibly less efficient at mining than actual meatsacks.


Sampling a pixel color or a range of pixel colors within a given area would defeat it. It'd still be more efficient.

Eladaris
Amarr
Excessum Industries
Posted - 2011.05.06 20:54:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Eladaris on 06/05/2011 20:55:32
Originally by: Laruen Pleides

Is it even worth asking CCP for such changes to be made?



Not really.

I think CCP is going to do just enough to get us to shut up about the bots for another year. Pretty much every single MMO on the planet has RMT. Ironically the only thread connecting all those different MMO's are the player's themselves.

CCP did their Unholy Rage a while ago, but then apparently forgot every single damn lesson learned in that process, because the RMT are still around and running strong today.

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.05.07 02:09:00 - [8]
 

i like where are you going with this - as i'm big into not having CCP involved in anything in-game (less petitions == win). but, bots can use a mouse, use a keyboard, read and write text, determine colors and work logically (even guesstimating is stochastically-based logic, which since possible via maths is possible via computers) so, none of what you suggested would defeat them.

opinion and emotion are about the only things that can't be quantified logically. come up with something that would require some level of opinion and you've got yourself a winner. but even something like "choose the right picture/word/color/etc" is possible with a large enough set of data - short of having an infinite set of choices that is... and things like beauty are actually measurable in terms of symmetry and ratios. ... so what that is i have no clue. but i'm sure something like this exists.

i still say (short of finding an idea meeting the above criteria) the best full-proof solution is simply allow bots.. at least then no one would have an immoral upper-hand. plus, there would be little need for RMT and tactically choking off ISK supplies would be that much easier.

Zag'mar Jurkar
Minmatar
Advent of the Blood Sun
Posted - 2011.05.07 03:18:00 - [9]
 

Adding Captions would be the only way I could see it being possible. Before warping to a belt, requiring to enter a Captcha or before firing those mining lasers.

Arnakoz
Posted - 2011.05.07 03:48:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Zag'mar Jurkar
Adding Captions would be the only way I could see it being possible. Before warping to a belt, requiring to enter a Captcha or before firing those mining lasers.


studies have shown computers to be better at solving captchas than humans.

besides that, they are annoying for real people.

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.05.07 12:24:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: T'Laar Bok
Originally by: Ayieka
they should make mining asteroids like mining on PI, have a heat map and direct your lasers to the hotter spots for better efficiency. that way the bots are possibly less efficient at mining than actual meatsacks.


Sampling a pixel color or a range of pixel colors within a given area would defeat it. It'd still be more efficient.


The solution is to make the "heat map" not so simple, but more complex in such a way that a human can see details that it would be very difficult to program a bot to see. Here is an example pic:
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
A human can pick the crystals out from the useless rock, but a computer can't.

Keen Fallsword
Posted - 2011.05.07 12:53:00 - [12]
 

Eve problem is not with MACRO. Eve problem is with lack of content in everything !!!! When will new ships will be added ? When new skills will be added ? Thats the right question ! Eve is leaking and dying sorry to say ... :(

baltec1
Posted - 2011.05.07 12:55:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Keen Fallsword
Eve problem is not with MACRO. Eve problem is with lack of content in everything !!!! When will new ships will be added ? When new skills will be added ? Thats the right question ! Eve is leaking and dying sorry to say ... :(


Content is made by players.

Keen Fallsword
Posted - 2011.05.07 12:58:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Keen Fallsword
Eve problem is not with MACRO. Eve problem is with lack of content in everything !!!! When will new ships will be added ? When new skills will be added ? Thats the right question ! Eve is leaking and dying sorry to say ... :(


Content is made by players.


Ships and Skills to ?

Keen Fallsword
Posted - 2011.05.07 13:01:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Keen Fallsword
Eve problem is not with MACRO. Eve problem is with lack of content in everything !!!! When will new ships will be added ? When new skills will be added ? Thats the right question ! Eve is leaking and dying sorry to say ... :(


Content is made by players.


You still believe that EVE is a "sand-box" right ? Well .... What else I can say.. Great job of marketing guys ...

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.05.08 01:44:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Keen Fallsword
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Keen Fallsword
Eve problem is not with MACRO. Eve problem is with lack of content in everything !!!! When will new ships will be added ? When new skills will be added ? Thats the right question ! Eve is leaking and dying sorry to say ... :(


Content is made by players.


You still believe that EVE is a "sand-box" right ? Well .... What else I can say.. Great job of marketing guys ...


If EVE sucks so much in your opinion, then why are you still playing. Do you honestly believe the rest of us are waiting for new internet spaceships and skills? Is that all you see in EVE? Perhaps you would be better off playing Freelancer. No wait...that game fell through because it didn't have enough popularity. Hmm...

T'Laar Bok
Posted - 2011.05.08 04:10:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Reaver Glitterstim
[... pic...]
A human can pick the crystals out from the useless rock, but a computer can't.


Humans only see the pic with their very limited optical input and CPU so they think its difficult for a computer.

Steveir
Gallente
Hagukure
Posted - 2011.05.08 09:19:00 - [18]
 

Why not have progressively nastier Rats?
I find rats appear about ever 20 mins, but if these slowly got nastier overtime then at some point the bot either have to run got get blown up.
Obviously, yields would need to increase over time to "reward" the player miner working the field.
And then there would work for players protecting miners too - another aspect of the game to develop.
If this "feature" was related to system security, then those miners who want quiet life, could just relocate to 0.9 space and mine Veld (which is normally fairly profitable anyway for hisec ore).

Ashitaka Edison
Posted - 2011.05.08 11:48:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Steveir
Why not have progressively nastier Rats?
I find rats appear about ever 20 mins, but if these slowly got nastier overtime then at some point the bot either have to run got get blown up.
Obviously, yields would need to increase over time to "reward" the player miner working the field.
And then there would work for players protecting miners too - another aspect of the game to develop.
If this "feature" was related to system security, then those miners who want quiet life, could just relocate to 0.9 space and mine Veld (which is normally fairly profitable anyway for hisec ore).


This wont work because you all do it tank the weak rats and never kill them. I guess you could do it by making new rats spawn even if the old ones are not destroyed. This however has other implications. It means that belts would become no go areas until they are cleared out. This would make it very hard for new players.

TBH i dont think there is any quick fix for this, it has been thrashed out MANY times and no real solution has been found. Especially because non macros also sometimes want some downtime to make some isk. So making these activities (to my mind these are mining and belt ratting) too involved and complex just pushes even more people into missions when they are not PvPing.

The only thing i can think of is some way not to neccessary stop macros but make it much less profitable than doing some interactive stuff. But even then macros can be very clever so implimenting this is very hard.

To may mind macro mining is not such an issue as it does not add isk to the system, just moves it around. Macroing of missions and ratting is a much bigger issue. These is fixed rewards. With mining at least there is only a finite number of macro miners that can be effective. Since the insurance changes too many macros would just drive the price of minerals so low that even macroing it would not be worth while.

Ash


 

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