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Oeduard Kriegge
Posted - 2011.05.03 08:17:00 - [91]
 

Originally by: CCP Rhayger
Originally by: Sturmwolke
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2011/redneck.png

Interesting choice of pic. It shows a redneck (I will assume from the pic name) holding up a placard "Get a brain! morans".
That's a perfectly fine statement, except for the mis-spelling of "morons". The joke then rebounds back to the person holding the placard, for being too stupid spell a simple word.

Now, depending on who's looking, that can be construed or alluded as hubris and disdain towards the EVE community for lighting up the fires on the new forums. Rather than approaching this with proper decorum and humility, CCP have decided to slyly throw a troll back at the community.

Is that the public face that you want to potray?
Remember, EVE players have long memories.


* shrug *

I just thought it was a funny picture that poked fun at US for screwing up. I wouldn't read that much into it

In all honesty my first reaction was, like Sturmwolke, one of suspicion.

Now, maybe that says more about my person than your choice of picture (flame on, etc) but all I'll say further is that I hope you'll see sense in removing it from the blog. It (arguably) doesn't add anything to the content of your post other than an unfortunate opportunity for misunderstanding.

d4refiner
Posted - 2011.05.03 08:34:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Oeduard Kriegge
Originally by: CCP Rhayger
Originally by: Sturmwolke
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2011/redneck.png

Interesting choice of pic. It shows a redneck (I will assume from the pic name) holding up a placard "Get a brain! morans".
That's a perfectly fine statement, except for the mis-spelling of "morons". The joke then rebounds back to the person holding the placard, for being too stupid spell a simple word.

Now, depending on who's looking, that can be construed or alluded as hubris and disdain towards the EVE community for lighting up the fires on the new forums. Rather than approaching this with proper decorum and humility, CCP have decided to slyly throw a troll back at the community.

Is that the public face that you want to potray?
Remember, EVE players have long memories.


* shrug *

I just thought it was a funny picture that poked fun at US for screwing up. I wouldn't read that much into it

In all honesty my first reaction was, like Sturmwolke, one of suspicion.

Now, maybe that says more about my person than your choice of picture (flame on, etc) but all I'll say further is that I hope you'll see sense in removing it from the blog. It (arguably) doesn't add anything to the content of your post other than an unfortunate opportunity for misunderstanding.

Not to mention a pathetic attempt to pretend "oh it's oh so funny that we eff'd up so royally." Web team has not earned the right to try to be funny. Web team hasn't even earned the right to keep their jobs. EVE would be a better place if they were all fired and NOT replaced. Old forums > new forums. spacebook = garbage. evelopedia = off-the-shelf software. all their work (including the little animations on the eve homepage) is bulky, clunky, awkward and unpleasant. Have I missed anything?

RaTTuS
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.05.03 10:30:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: RaTTuS on 03/05/2011 10:30:08
for the whatever you pray to please inport these forum posts into the new ones.

Thank you and come againExclamation

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.05.03 10:48:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: d4refiner
Have I missed anything?


well, in all honesty and as I said before, we need better forums. We don't need that thing that was the "new forums" however.

Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Posted - 2011.05.03 11:09:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:13:11
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:10:21
Being creative in this thread is a waste of time, so I'll just steal the basics from other posts and add them as "fill in yourself" assertions.

Rage, whine, rage, self-important declaration of being fed up with CCP.
Mandatory uneducated opinion on project management and web development.
Entitlement whine. Demonstration of poor text comprehension and/or inability to fully read devblog itself and CCP's comments in thread. Quotation from somewhat better written posts.
Reposting with few expendable alts.
Eve is dying!!11

I think I'm doing it right.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.03 11:30:00 - [96]
 

It was certainly a major screwup, but let us look at the actual damage, while it is certainly embarassing to CCP, no customer account details were compromised and no plutonium fuel rods melted. It is certainly not nice, to put i mildly, but CCP is also aware about this.

I personally do not care about putting the blame on a specific person, or making public scapegoats, but I certainly want to be sure my account and CC details are safe.Cool

Slightly off-topic, but we need a blog about the planned account security token feature. Cool

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.05.03 11:43:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 03/05/2011 12:15:33
Originally by: Sturmwolke
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2011/redneck.png

Interesting choice of pic. It shows a redneck (I will assume from the pic name) holding up a placard "Get a brain! morans".
That's a perfectly fine statement, except for the mis-spelling of "morons". The joke then rebounds back to the person holding the placard, for being too stupid spell a simple word.

Now, depending on who's looking, that can be construed or alluded as hubris and disdain towards the EVE community for lighting up the fires on the new forums. Rather than approaching this with proper decorum and humility, CCP have decided to slyly throw a troll back at the community.

Is that the public face that you want to potray?
Remember, EVE players have long memories.

^ pretty much my thoughts after seeing the picture, too ugh

Originally by: CCP Karuck
Sorry, we don't feed trolls :)

... but I guess I am just a troll, not a customer (that could expect some level of professionalism from customer-facing company reps).

It is easy to be ~funny~ on the internetz - but I think you should ask yourself whether you would use the same tone when communicating with an (external) corporate customer in the aftermath of a similar incident.

I don't know much about CCP corporate culture but I did do an internship at a medium-sized web development company (about 25 full-time employees, 3 development teams with project managers + some specialists, accounting and management) and I can tell you that if we had dared to address any of our customers this way our executives would have been busy for several days on damage control alone (offering apologies in person, negotiating discounts, ...) and we would probably still have lost the contract (also the responsible PM would probably have been reassigned to signal a change in regiment to the customer).

(not talking out of my ass here - one of the teams ran two weeks late on schedule [without trying to be funny or insulting customers] and I saw the fallout of that)

Backing up unprofessional work with unprofessional behavior is not really an option.^^

Shandir
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.05.03 12:44:00 - [98]
 

Edited by: Shandir on 03/05/2011 12:44:17
Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:13:11
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:10:21
Being creative in this thread is a waste of time, so I'll just steal the basics from other posts and add them as "fill in yourself" assertions.

Rage, whine, rage, self-important declaration of being fed up with CCP.
Mandatory uneducated opinion on project management and web development.
Entitlement whine. Demonstration of poor text comprehension and/or inability to fully read devblog itself and CCP's comments in thread. Quotation from somewhat better written posts.
Reposting with few expendable alts.
Eve is dying!!11

I think I'm doing it right.


You forgot:
*Demand that anyone responsible and their children be flayed slowly alive as an example to others.

Quit it with the requests for public firings. It's a new and quite creepy graduation from (equally impotent) rage-quiting threats.

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.05.03 13:50:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 03/05/2011 13:53:50
Originally by: Shandir
Edited by: Shandir on 03/05/2011 12:44:17
Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:13:11
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:10:21
Being creative in this thread is a waste of time, so I'll just steal the basics from other posts and add them as "fill in yourself" assertions.

Rage, whine, rage, self-important declaration of being fed up with CCP.
Mandatory uneducated opinion on project management and web development.
Entitlement whine. Demonstration of poor text comprehension and/or inability to fully read devblog itself and CCP's comments in thread. Quotation from somewhat better written posts.
Reposting with few expendable alts.
Eve is dying!!11

I think I'm doing it right.


You forgot:
*Demand that anyone responsible and their children be flayed slowly alive as an example to others.

Quit it with the requests for public firings. It's a new and quite creepy graduation from (equally impotent) rage-quiting threats.


But you forget, public hysteria and demandings for terminations are a perfectly reasonable response for an incident where ABSOLUTELY NO HARM WAS DONE on something as trivial as an internet spaceship game forum.

Remember when your kids got to that stage where they thought it was appropriate to "tell" mom and dad all sort of things they needed to do. You remember being patient so as not to hurt their feelings, but you finally had to draw a line and explain how reality works.

Yeah, I can see that line on the horizon.

Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
Posted - 2011.05.03 14:07:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 03/05/2011 13:53:50
Originally by: Shandir
Edited by: Shandir on 03/05/2011 12:44:17
Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:13:11
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:10:21
Being creative in this thread is a waste of time, so I'll just steal the basics from other posts and add them as "fill in yourself" assertions.

Rage, whine, rage, self-important declaration of being fed up with CCP.
Mandatory uneducated opinion on project management and web development.
Entitlement whine. Demonstration of poor text comprehension and/or inability to fully read devblog itself and CCP's comments in thread. Quotation from somewhat better written posts.
Reposting with few expendable alts.
Eve is dying!!11

I think I'm doing it right.


You forgot:
*Demand that anyone responsible and their children be flayed slowly alive as an example to others.

Quit it with the requests for public firings. It's a new and quite creepy graduation from (equally impotent) rage-quiting threats.


But you forget, public hysteria and demandings for terminations are a perfectly reasonable response for an incident where ABSOLUTELY NO HARM WAS DONE on something as trivial as an internet spaceship game forum.

Remember when your kids got to that stage where they thought it was appropriate to "tell" mom and dad all sort of things they needed to do. You remember being patient so as not to hurt their feelings, but you finally had to draw a line and explain how reality works.

Yeah, I can see that line on the horizon.

Internet spaceships forums are serious business. Neutral

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.03 14:36:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 03/05/2011 14:35:50
Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl

Rage, whine, rage, self-important declaration of being fed up with CCP.
Mandatory uneducated opinion on project management and web development.
Entitlement whine. Demonstration of poor text comprehension and/or inability to fully read devblog itself and CCP's comments in thread. Quotation from somewhat better written posts.
Reposting with few expendable alts.
Eve is dying!!11

I think I'm doing it right.


You sir have done it exactly right. Welcome to the world of the bitter vet...the shoes fit you nicely. Laughing

Andrea Exerlauka
Posted - 2011.05.03 15:15:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Andrea Exerlauka on 03/05/2011 15:17:10

Things You Should Never Do, Part I
Quote:
It's a bit smarmy of me to criticize them for waiting so long between releases. They didn't do it on purpose, now, did they?

Well, yes. They did. They did it by making the single worst strategic mistake that any software company can make:

They decided to rewrite the code from scratch.

[...]

The idea that new code is better than old is patently absurd. Old code has been used. It has been tested. Lots of bugs have been found, and they've been fixed. There's nothing wrong with it. It doesn't acquire bugs just by sitting around on your hard drive. Au contraire, baby!

[...]

When you throw away code and start from scratch, you are throwing away all that knowledge. All those collected bug fixes. Years of programming work.

[...]

These problems can be solved, one at a time, by carefully moving code, refactoring, changing interfaces. They can be done by one programmer working carefully and checking in his changes all at once, so that nobody else is disrupted. Even fairly major architectural changes can be done without throwing away the code.

[...]

It's important to remember that when you start from scratch there is absolutely no reason to believe that you are going to do a better job than you did the first time. First of all, you probably don't even have the same programming team that worked on version one, so you don't actually have "more experience". You're just going to make most of the old mistakes again, and introduce some new problems that weren't in the original version.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.05.03 19:06:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: CCP Rhayger
Originally by: Steve Thomas
This is going to sound Ironic comeing from me.

and remember I honestly dont have a problem with you going the way you did.

But now you know why your kind of buisness cant be too Deadline focused. all too often it becomes a Drop dead line. you already had something that worked just fine. there was no need to rush it out the door.


The release of the forums wasn't unduly pushed by deadlines. I can honestly say if we were aware of quality issues we would definitely have delayed launch. What is way worse, honestly speaking, is that we didn't catch these quality (security) issues. That is what we are focusing on addressing
I didn't use the new forums because they were an eyesore.

There were threadnaughts on the forums explaining the mass of problems with reading those forums as well as issues with whitespace and... well the list went on and on and on.

The problem, you just don't seem to "get it". It's frustrating for me to read the line:
Originally by: CCP Rhayger

I can honestly say if we were aware of quality issues we would definitely have delayed launch.


... what do you do at CCP? I get you code something... having to do with the web. But seriously, I've worked with a group to get my alliance site up and the coding aspects took us less than a week to migrate from a "known forum solution".

That quote... wow, I kinda raged and I've actually been avoiding this whole forum debacle.

I've watched my allies put up, some very impressive, web based solutions for random utilities and communications all done via volunteer work. And when I say impressive, who in the NC uses the jump bridge route planner, or the POS timer application, or the black lists... EDKP... TEA... I can keep going.

I then come to the crap you guys pushed out as forums and wondered who it was.

Thanks for raising your hand.

So you're a volunteer at CCP right? I mean, you can't be getting paid, the executors at CCP wouldn't be that dumb.

1. You ignored the users who did spell out many of the potential exploits before the launch of the forums.
2. Basic... I mean, stuff you learn in high school these days and like... top 10 no-no stuff was missed.
3. While you maintain that your team of web developers are competent, I have watched kids put together applications more complicated than YAF +your failed implementation in far less time and with far less issues/complaints.

@the CCP employee who asked if the community was out for blood.

I'd say from the threadnaughts in General, on the "New Forums" and the rage generated via the news articles concerning their account/forum/internet identity being compromised in such a basic manner ... yes, people are out for blood.

Someone should be fired.

Syas Morakl Badasaz
Posted - 2011.05.03 19:13:00 - [104]
 

Edited by: Syas Morakl Badasaz on 03/05/2011 19:15:22
Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:13:11
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:10:21
Being creative in this thread is a waste of time, so I'll just steal the basics from other posts and add them as "fill in yourself" assertions.

Rage, whine, rage, self-important declaration of being fed up with CCP.
Mandatory uneducated opinion on project management and web development.
Entitlement whine. Demonstration of poor text comprehension and/or inability to fully read devblog itself and CCP's comments in thread. Quotation from somewhat better written posts.
Reposting with few expendable alts.
Eve is dying!!11

I think I'm doing it right.


Quoted because it is right. Everyone take a chill pill and think about this. Name one company that has never ever ever made a mistake. Now find someone that has not made a mistake in the last year, month, day?

Anyone who lives in the real world know that nothing is perfect. Want more proof... Sony... Blizzard RealID.

If it hasnt gone wrong yet, just give it time.

Kasidis
Gallente
Nexus.6
Posted - 2011.05.03 21:03:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: CCP Karuck
Some people sure are out for blood, should we have a public execution in nullsec maybe? :) I hope we'll give you guys details later on what really happened, but let me just say that things aren't as simple as many of you make them out to be... but I know they certainly look that way.


Protip buddy, they EXACTLY as simple as they appear, you do not have a competent web team, and you let slip a security hole so basic and moronically easy to predict that even _I_ was able to exploit your system in all of 30 minutes. And I'm not even a programmer or a hacker. Do you even understand how it worked?

Originally by: CCP Karuck

Sure it was a serious and embarrassing exploit, but exactly how it happened needs a longer and careful explanation.


Protip 2: you don't go "sure it was" when you follow it up with "serious exploit". Don't downplay the magnitude and potentially harmful effects this immense failure could have caused had we not gone to extreme lengths to contact your guys to pull the plug BEFORE someone got hurt. Sorry about the ski trip btw, I'm sure you were looking forwards to it.

Originally by: CCP Karuck
All the developers involved in this project are very competent developers but as anyone who has worked in software development knows, things can "fall between the cracks" in more complex systems and especially when integrating multiple systems together.


very competent developers do not let authorization systems that appear to be coded by a 12 year old into live environments. very competent developers also audit and pen test their web apps before putting them live. Very competent developers would not let your forum identity be determined by a clear text string held on the client You need to stop posting, because you're seriously making it all even worse.

Originally by: CCP Karuck
I hope we can win your trust back some day :)


Sure you can, when they fire the entire web team and get some professionals to build their web services.


I can't even understand where you found the sack to post this reply.

Are you a professional?
Do you think this is the appropriate tone to take when you let your grossly incompetent webteam get away with what it did?

I don't care for your jokes, I don't care for your smileys, there needs to be people fired, and you damned well know it.
So I suggest you drop the downplay-with-smileys-please-forgive-me act, and get with the program, this is just another in a long string of grievous CCP failures, and the second example of how the webcell should all be fired on the spot.

(how many man hours did it take you to code a very poor twitter clone that nobody even likes again?)

I'm reaching the very limit of my patience with you lot.




My god, who ****ed in your cornflakes this morning? It's just a forum. I'd rather have that crash than TQ. It's going to be fixed and released soon enough, so just relax. Let's be honest here. CCP can fire/keep whoever they want. Now nobody is perfect, so sometimes you just have to deal with it.


Kasidis
Gallente
Nexus.6
Posted - 2011.05.03 21:05:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Syas Morakl Badasaz
Edited by: Syas Morakl Badasaz on 03/05/2011 19:15:22
Originally by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:13:11
Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 03/05/2011 11:10:21
Being creative in this thread is a waste of time, so I'll just steal the basics from other posts and add them as "fill in yourself" assertions.

Rage, whine, rage, self-important declaration of being fed up with CCP.
Mandatory uneducated opinion on project management and web development.
Entitlement whine. Demonstration of poor text comprehension and/or inability to fully read devblog itself and CCP's comments in thread. Quotation from somewhat better written posts.
Reposting with few expendable alts.
Eve is dying!!11

I think I'm doing it right.


Quoted because it is right. Everyone take a chill pill and think about this. Name one company that has never ever ever made a mistake. Now find someone that has not made a mistake in the last year, month, day?

Anyone who lives in the real world know that nothing is perfect. Want more proof... Sony... Blizzard RealID.

If it hasnt gone wrong yet, just give it time.


THANK YOU!!! Someone with common sense and patience. A rare occurence in todays world.

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2011.05.03 22:19:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Kasidis
My god, who ****ed in your cornflakes this morning? It's just a forum. I'd rather have that crash than TQ. It's going to be fixed and released soon enough, so just relax. Let's be honest here. CCP can fire/keep whoever they want. Now nobody is perfect, so sometimes you just have to deal with it.


So you're okay with a security flaw that let anyone log in with permissions that would have let them ban anyone they wanted to from the forums (amongst other things like viewing internal forums) or edit your posts? That's okay with you? You're happy to have the people who wrote the software that was -that- broken deal with the stuff that keeps your credit cards safe? You're happy for CCP to say that this level of quality is fine, and nobody should be held accountable for such a colossal **** up? Because frankly this was -huge- in terms of the impact it could have had. And may well have had - CCP is the only entity that can do the forensics and can know if they've ever been broken into, through the forums, EVE Gate or otherwise. And given that EVE Gate is tied tightly into the game server, exploits in the forum/EG could rapidly escalate, especially if there's this level of shoddy coding cropping up all over the place. One hopes that whoever did the server-EG interface knew what they were doing. Nothing major happened, as far as we know, because EVE players put their accounts on the line to raise the problem and force CCP to take the forums down rapidly.

So no, Helicity is utterly in the right. CCP has destroyed all the trust and faith I once had in them (and as someone who spent years working on freely available tools that thousands of players used every day, I had so much hope and faith in EVE and CCP at one point). Regaining that is not something done easily. And you should be getting mad about this unless you really don't care about the future of EVE. And if you don't... well, carry on. I can't make you.

Aphoxema G
PONIES EVERWHERE
Posted - 2011.05.04 00:07:00 - [108]
 

I liked the new forums. My favorite part was that people who hated them smashed their faces against the keyboard and clicked "post reply".

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.05.04 00:56:00 - [109]
 

I have a feeling CCP have abandoned this thread.

KIR5TOFF
Posted - 2011.05.04 01:48:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
I have a feeling CCP have abandoned this thread.


Would you come in here if you were a part of the web team?

Kasidis
Gallente
Nexus.6
Posted - 2011.05.04 05:28:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Ix Forres
Originally by: Kasidis
My god, who ****ed in your cornflakes this morning? It's just a forum. I'd rather have that crash than TQ. It's going to be fixed and released soon enough, so just relax. Let's be honest here. CCP can fire/keep whoever they want. Now nobody is perfect, so sometimes you just have to deal with it.


So you're okay with a security flaw that let anyone log in with permissions that would have let them ban anyone they wanted to from the forums (amongst other things like viewing internal forums) or edit your posts? That's okay with you? You're happy to have the people who wrote the software that was -that- broken deal with the stuff that keeps your credit cards safe? You're happy for CCP to say that this level of quality is fine, and nobody should be held accountable for such a colossal **** up? Because frankly this was -huge- in terms of the impact it could have had. And may well have had - CCP is the only entity that can do the forensics and can know if they've ever been broken into, through the forums, EVE Gate or otherwise. And given that EVE Gate is tied tightly into the game server, exploits in the forum/EG could rapidly escalate, especially if there's this level of shoddy coding cropping up all over the place. One hopes that whoever did the server-EG interface knew what they were doing. Nothing major happened, as far as we know, because EVE players put their accounts on the line to raise the problem and force CCP to take the forums down rapidly.

So no, Helicity is utterly in the right. CCP has destroyed all the trust and faith I once had in them (and as someone who spent years working on freely available tools that thousands of players used every day, I had so much hope and faith in EVE and CCP at one point). Regaining that is not something done easily. And you should be getting mad about this unless you really don't care about the future of EVE. And if you don't... well, carry on. I can't make you.


The forum has nothing to do with credit card or personal information. Your characters on TQ were completely unaffected. You account information was unaffected. An Icelandic bear did not come through your computer screen and slash your arms off. You will be fine. For a brief moment, someone could have special forum powers. Well the forum was closed and all those posts deleted. It's irrelevant now. It is being fixed and **** will come together soon. I care about the future of EVE. "EVE Online" that is, so take your rage to fixing the game, the thing that matters. I don't give a rats ass about the web team. I may not trust the web team anymore, but the web team doesn't represent all of CCP. I trust CCP to do what they do best.

d4refiner
Posted - 2011.05.04 09:28:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Kasidis
Originally by: Ix Forres
Originally by: Kasidis
My god, who ****ed in your cornflakes this morning? It's just a forum. I'd rather have that crash than TQ. It's going to be fixed and released soon enough, so just relax. Let's be honest here. CCP can fire/keep whoever they want. Now nobody is perfect, so sometimes you just have to deal with it.


So you're okay with a security flaw that let anyone log in with permissions that would have let them ban anyone they wanted to from the forums (amongst other things like viewing internal forums) or edit your posts? That's okay with you? You're happy to have the people who wrote the software that was -that- broken deal with the stuff that keeps your credit cards safe? You're happy for CCP to say that this level of quality is fine, and nobody should be held accountable for such a colossal **** up? Because frankly this was -huge- in terms of the impact it could have had. And may well have had - CCP is the only entity that can do the forensics and can know if they've ever been broken into, through the forums, EVE Gate or otherwise. And given that EVE Gate is tied tightly into the game server, exploits in the forum/EG could rapidly escalate, especially if there's this level of shoddy coding cropping up all over the place. One hopes that whoever did the server-EG interface knew what they were doing. Nothing major happened, as far as we know, because EVE players put their accounts on the line to raise the problem and force CCP to take the forums down rapidly.

So no, Helicity is utterly in the right. CCP has destroyed all the trust and faith I once had in them (and as someone who spent years working on freely available tools that thousands of players used every day, I had so much hope and faith in EVE and CCP at one point). Regaining that is not something done easily. And you should be getting mad about this unless you really don't care about the future of EVE. And if you don't... well, carry on. I can't make you.


The forum has nothing to do with credit card or personal information. Your characters on TQ were completely unaffected. You account information was unaffected. I don't give a rats ass about the web team. I may not trust the web team anymore, but the web team doesn't represent all of CCP. I trust CCP to do what they do best.

You're right, the forum screw up didn't affect the game directly (that we know of.) That's not the point. The point is that the incompetents who made the forums also have their drunk bumbling fingers on your credit card information. If they can screw up hitting the install button on pre-packaged forum software, what makes you think they are competent to handle something that actually matters? Next thing they are going to get their lame-brained fingers on is moving the API over to the abortion that is eve-gate, and then, who knows... maybe then they'll start moving account management over. Or they could just email all our account information directly to the Chinese mafia. It'd save on programming hours.

Ix Forres
Caldari
Righteous Chaps
Posted - 2011.05.04 09:38:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Kasidis
I may not trust the web team anymore, but the web team doesn't represent all of CCP. I trust CCP to do what they do best.


And I (and many others) do not. This sort of incident is the reason why. Not just this one in isolation, but the countless problems, screwups, mistakes and disasters, every time the "Whoops, we're a bit silly for that happening! Don't worry, we've got it sorted! Smile" response. And then it happens again.

I had hope, faith and trust in CCP to make EVE fantastic. Not any more.

Jorhan Brimve Stahl
Posted - 2011.05.04 10:15:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Jorhan Brimve Stahl on 04/05/2011 10:16:08
Originally by: d4refiner
That's not the point. The point is that the incompetents who made the forums also have their drunk bumbling fingers on your credit card information. If they can screw up hitting the install button on pre-packaged forum software, what makes you think they are competent to handle something that actually matters? Next thing they are going to get their lame-brained fingers on is moving the API over to the abortion that is eve-gate, and then, who knows... maybe then they'll start moving account management over. Or they could just email all our account information directly to the Chinese mafia. It'd save on programming hours.


Unsubscribe, delete all personal information from your computer, burn it, terminate your credit card, feign your death, change gender, travel to North Pole and live there for the rest of your days in a wooden hut hidden away from civilization and electronic devices. It's the only way to be sure.

You being unable to post more of this "OH **** THE SKY IS FALLING!!11" stuff would be a pleasant side-effect.

Kepakh
Posted - 2011.05.04 10:26:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: CCP Rhayger

Not sure what you are looking for, blame is clearly on me for technical direction, the dev team for the coding flaws and the QA staff for not catching the errors. Blame isn't the important thing in my eyes, we screwed up and each of us knows it and owns up to it - the important thing is to find the flaws, fix them and then most importantly make significant changes so that it does not happen again.

I tell my teams consistently I prefer not to make mistakes, but they will happen especially if you are pushing hard - what I do have a problem with is repeating mistakes and that's where the focus is.



While blame isn't important in your eyes, it is a problem when you can screw up and then there is no consequence for your failure. That way you will just shrug off any responsibility off your shoulders same as you are doing now and nothing stops you from making more mistakes.

I do not think you will succeed to persuade anyone that everyone did everything right.

Also, I do not know how CCP operates but at least in my personal and professional experience it was always superiors and management being responsible for their teams as well as process management...

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.05.04 10:30:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Kasidis
I don't give a rats ass about the web team. I may not trust the web team anymore, but the web team doesn't represent all of CCP. I trust CCP to do what they do best.


it's not just the forums.
if it was just the forums, I'm damn sure the outcry wouldn't be as big as it was.

It's more like the continuous deployment of bugs that were extensively reported on test server and not fixed, lack of commitment on polishing/fixing content that was deployed and then, apparently, abandoned (FW), or half-fixed (PI), and a seemingly growing lack of communication.

Hell, the only guy that managed to salvage anything in this forum debacle was Sreegs, and tbh that was the only instance in a long time where I saw someone from CCP actually put their hands on the fire to try to calm them.

I mean, I'm not asking CCP to spill the beans out, just a bit more interaction.

in a TL;DR way: the new forums were just that last straw.

Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission
EVE Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.05.04 22:22:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Kasidis

The forum has nothing to do with credit card or personal information. Your characters on TQ were completely unaffected. You account information was unaffected.


And you know that for sure because ...?

You're character is from 2009, so I'm not sure if you're aware of older CCP hickups. The one that gave birth to the CSM, for example. And how they twisted and turned the facts until they couldn't deny things any longer.

And for this dev blog. it took you - what? - three weeks to come up with this "Helly Kitty" PR fluff? I'm ... I'm lacking words. Rolling Eyes

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2011.05.05 06:27:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Kasidis

The forum has nothing to do with credit card or personal information. Your characters on TQ were completely unaffected. You account information was unaffected.


A patch on a game has nothing to with being able to start your PC. But that did not stop CCP from deleting your boot.ini file. After that fiasco a funny movie was made about throwing someone of a roof, some devblog was written promising something like this could never, ever happen again. A bit like this devblog and the one we'll soon see how this was a one in a million error. And Iceland is like Discworld, a one in a million chance happens nine times out of ten.

d4refiner
Posted - 2011.05.05 07:14:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Darth Vapour
Originally by: Kasidis

The forum has nothing to do with credit card or personal information. Your characters on TQ were completely unaffected. You account information was unaffected.


A patch on a game has nothing to with being able to start your PC. But that did not stop CCP from deleting your boot.ini file. After that fiasco a funny movie was made about throwing someone of a roof, some devblog was written promising something like this could never, ever happen again. A bit like this devblog and the one we'll soon see how this was a one in a million error. And Iceland is like Discworld, a one in a million chance happens nine times out of ten.

Except with CCP a screw up is a sure thing, and a sure thing crops up ten times out of ten. For the web devs in particular a screw up is even MORE likely. And the next sure thing is gonna be the full account information database being searchable on google. Just you wait.

Chakakhan Maulerant
Posted - 2011.05.05 15:24:00 - [120]
 

Thanks for the blog. I found it very informative.

There is an amazing amount of anger in this thread. Someone should get fired over this... really???

I read many posts by people who think they are technically astute pointing fingers and talking about things they obviously don't understand as well as they think they do. Its amazing CCP even tries to communicate openly anymore. Rather sad.


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