open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New Dev Blog: The new EVE forums - technical underpinnings
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

Author Topic

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.05.02 17:55:00 - [61]
 

Load time wasn't anything great either. Please move all javascript below the actual content in the source file. I'd like to see what I want to see before anything else.

Zedrik Cayne
Gallente
Standards and Practices
Posted - 2011.05.02 18:18:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: CCP Karuck
Some people sure are out for blood, should we have a public execution in nullsec maybe? :) I hope we'll give you guys details later on what really happened, but let me just say that things aren't as simple as many of you make them out to be... but I know they certainly look that way.


Protip buddy, they EXACTLY as simple as they appear, you do not have a competent web team, and you let slip a security hole so basic and moronically easy to predict that even _I_ was able to exploit your system in all of 30 minutes. And I'm not even a programmer or a hacker. Do you even understand how it worked?

Originally by: CCP Karuck

Sure it was a serious and embarrassing exploit, but exactly how it happened needs a longer and careful explanation.


Protip 2: you don't go "sure it was" when you follow it up with "serious exploit". Don't downplay the magnitude and potentially harmful effects this immense failure could have caused had we not gone to extreme lengths to contact your guys to pull the plug BEFORE someone got hurt. Sorry about the ski trip btw, I'm sure you were looking forwards to it.

Originally by: CCP Karuck
All the developers involved in this project are very competent developers but as anyone who has worked in software development knows, things can "fall between the cracks" in more complex systems and especially when integrating multiple systems together.


very competent developers do not let authorization systems that appear to be coded by a 12 year old into live environments. very competent developers also audit and pen test their web apps before putting them live. Very competent developers would not let your forum identity be determined by a clear text string held on the client You need to stop posting, because you're seriously making it all even worse.

Originally by: CCP Karuck
I hope we can win your trust back some day :)


Sure you can, when they fire the entire web team and get some professionals to build their web services.


I can't even understand where you found the sack to post this reply.

Are you a professional?
Do you think this is the appropriate tone to take when you let your grossly incompetent webteam get away with what it did?

I don't care for your jokes, I don't care for your smileys, there needs to be people fired, and you damned well know it.
So I suggest you drop the downplay-with-smileys-please-forgive-me act, and get with the program, this is just another in a long string of grievous CCP failures, and the second example of how the webcell should all be fired on the spot.

(how many man hours did it take you to code a very poor twitter clone that nobody even likes again?)

I'm reaching the very limit of my patience with you lot.



Quoted for truthiness.

I don't think this was a QA failure myself, in that all the features on the website worked as advertised provided you used only the website itself. What failed was even a cursory security audit by someone who knows what they are doing. Aka...a hacker..or former hacker.

In response to someone who asked 'how much of YAF was still there after they rewrote the authentication' The answer is 'An awful lot'. I took the liberty of downloading it to check through it. Basically everything looks like it was out of the box except for the authentication and character display bits.

And unfortunately, the thing seems to depend an awful lot on the client (aka: Your browser) to do a lot of data cleaning. Which is easily circumvented. So even if they fixed the obvious errors in authentication (cleartext userspace cookie, really?) There are still basic underlying issues that without a serious audit you're still horked in a dozen ways.

Good luck with your new forums. Your very techincally savvy userbase will be watching.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.05.02 18:58:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: CCP Karuck
Some people sure are out for blood, should we have a public execution in nullsec maybe? :)

Here's a tip: Your customers are getting VERY tired of CCP's attitude and their habit of using bad humour in an attempt to downplay serious faults with the company. You may think it's hysterically funny, but we don't and I think the majority will rather just quit the game than suffer any more of this rubbish.

Quote:

I hope we'll give you guys details later on what really happened, but let me just say that things aren't as simple as many of you make them out to be... but I know they certainly look that way.


Here's another tip: If you don't fully disclose what happened you will see another player exodus like the one that happened last summer. There is no way in hell I will trust you with my credit card details unless this happens.

Additionally, simply SAYING that things weren't as simple as they seem is not enough. Give us full disclosure and live with the consequences or lose customers. It's your choice.
Quote:

Sure it was a serious and embarrassing exploit, but exactly how it happened needs a longer and careful explanation. All the developers involved in this project are very competent developers but as anyone who has worked in software development knows, things can "fall between the cracks" in more complex systems and especially when integrating multiple systems together.


The level of the exploit was so basic that referring to the people who let that through as competent is nothing more than an insult. I am a software developer, as are many here and that level of incompetence would have gotten a good many of us fired (those of us who have worked in the banking industry know that the penalties that our companies would incur with such mistakes would have been very harsh). I see no such consequences at CCP, just the usual vague babble and pathetic humour.
Quote:

I hope we can win your trust back some day :)
Good luck with that. I mean that seriously. Full disclosure and transparent steps to ensure that you are taking your customers seriously would be a very good start.

Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.05.02 19:06:00 - [64]
 

I learned PHP and web development when I was 15-16 years old with a book called PHP and MySql for dummies. It explained that exploit.

Jonathan Malcom
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.05.02 19:08:00 - [65]
 

Jesus Christ, Helicity. You're on the war-path.

:popcorn:

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2011.05.02 19:11:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Malcom
Jesus Christ, Helicity. You're on the war-path.

:popcorn:


you'd think they'd know better by now.


Pivalak
Haiku Enterprises
Posted - 2011.05.02 19:46:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: CCP Karuck
[...] as anyone who has worked in software development knows, things can "fall between the cracks" in more complex systems and especially when integrating multiple systems together.


Well, I don't want to be too harsh but this is not the first time something as big as this "falls between the cracks". To put it in your terms, as anyone who has worked in software development will tell you, you seem to still have major QA deficiencies, to say the less. And while software engineering poses its own challenges and risks, your software engineering practices and procedures seem to be ill equiped -despite of CCP's efforts- to deal with the complexities of the tasks at hand.

Originally by: CCP Karuck
I hope we can win your trust back some day :)


Well, I sincerely believed things had improved since the boot.ini incident -three years ago- but I'm no longer sure that's the case, especially on the QA department. For newcomers who may not know what I'm talking about:

Originally by: Nobo
CCP's latest major patch to the EVE-Online client, Trinity, comes with an optional DX9-enhanced graphics patch that dramatically improves the visual quality of the in-game graphics through remade models, textures, and HDR. It also has an unfortunate bug: the incredibly stupid choice of boot.ini as a game configuration file, coupled with an errant extra backslash in the installer configuration. The result is that anyone who installs the enhanced graphics patch overwrites the windows XP c:\boot.ini file with the EVE client configuration file, bricking the machine on the next boot. Discussion in a couple of forums threads is becoming understandably heated.


I don't think it's our trust what is at stake here, but rather a matter of craftmanship and expertise. Should you demonstrate you have implemented the changes in your organization to mitigate the chances of serious mistakes such as these going live -or even making it into the codebase in the first place- gaining our confidence back will easily follow. But I don't think I need to point out you are not doing well at the moment...

Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.05.02 20:28:00 - [68]
 

So are we the redneck, or are you guys the redneck?

Xiang Jiao
Posted - 2011.05.02 20:35:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Hels
I don't care for your jokes, I don't care for your smileys, there needs to be people fired, and you damned well know it. So I suggest you drop the downplay-with-smileys-please-forgive-me act, and get with the program, this is just another in a long string of grievous CCP failures, and the second example of how the webcell should all be fired on the spot.


Name them and shame them! Their families will starve, and their surviving children will be sent to orphanages! Eve is a cold, harsh, universe!

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.05.02 20:49:00 - [70]
 

Quote:

Now some have worried that by choosing an Open Source solution we have to reveal the source code thus making your accounts and activities in EVE Gate vulnerable. This is not the case here as we have purchased a commercial license to YAF so we can properly protect our efforts.



Well, this is "Security through obscurity" and this approach is known to have flaws. If you think your security breaks down if you show the code to the public how can you run that software and still sleep at night? I know i could not.

Originally by: CCP Karuck

There are performance optimizations and features like the new search that the YAF community could have benefited from, but the decision was made to take the ".



Now you realize that you fix yourself to THIS version of YAF if you branch the entire codebase? In the opensource world this is considered a bad thing, it is like not writing tests, a quality issue! why? If you take the "long" approach and commit basic changes upstream you are in the luxury position that in a year or two when YAF has evolved and you want to upgrade to a new version, your changes are already in there. Together with changes from other companies, improvements you don't have to pay for. The migration will be (almost) seamless. Now you have probably closed that easy path and as i have seen it many times i can promise you that the "quicker approach" will cost you more effort in the end.

And there is no way around upgrading! There are bugs in YAF, bugs that will be discovered in the opensource project and fixed there. Your codebase will however be vulnerable to this bugs unless you backport the fixes into your branch. As the branches diverge it will be harder for you to backport the fixes and sooner or later you have to upgrade to get closer to the main branch again to minimize the effort.

Now you may ignore me because i'm obviously just mad. But just in case i point back to this post in some years: I told you so!

tl;dr your forums are doomed, your handling of opensource is flawed

d4refiner
Posted - 2011.05.02 20:52:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Xiang Jiao
Originally by: Hels
I don't care for your jokes, I don't care for your smileys, there needs to be people fired, and you damned well know it. So I suggest you drop the downplay-with-smileys-please-forgive-me act, and get with the program, this is just another in a long string of grievous CCP failures, and the second example of how the webcell should all be fired on the spot.


Name them and shame them! Their families will starve, and their surviving children will be sent to orphanages! Eve is a cold, harsh, universe!

Seems like an awesome idea... continue to employ people who suck at their jobs. Welcome to communism (or working for any government.)

Maybe the incompetent web devs would be happier and more successful if they followed their dreams of opening a food truck, and leave the web development to people who don't suck at it.

MissyDark
Posted - 2011.05.02 22:03:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: MissyDark on 02/05/2011 22:03:58
Hey CCP,

Have you thought about opening the forum code to your players? I'm sure there are lot of people who would gladly contribute. I'm sure there is a way to isolate security layer from community developers to ensure account safety. As a programmer I can think of couple of ways to do that, I'm sure you, knowing your architecture can find a suitable way to do this. You can limit yourself to project coordination and architecture/code review.

By the way, how hard it is to write a forum, I cannot grasp why do you make such a big deal out of it. Crowdsource it and move your staff to more important projects...Rolling Eyes

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
Posted - 2011.05.02 22:31:00 - [73]
 

In retrospective, a bit naive of me to think that every team at CCP got the wake-up-call from last summer.. LOL.

If I where in QA and/or Personal at CCP I for sure would like to look at the webteam for it's effectiveness and how it's being run in comparison to other teams. Whoever is in charge doesn't seem to be up to the job, that's what it looks like.

Also, if you guys ask for feedback and then don't implement them (while there was a time-frame of 1-2 months) it just stinks from a customers perspective. Other teams do that better.

Oriana Mortuney
Posted - 2011.05.02 22:49:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Oriana Mortuney on 02/05/2011 22:53:40
Not only did you not address the most important issue, how/why you screwed up, you further insult the community for YOUR screwup.

CCP, still doing it wrong.

PLUS this:
Originally by: Bomberlocks


NOBODY was complaining about the way the current forum looks. They were complaining about the lack of functionality that would have been easier to be added on than coding blind.


And Everything Helicity said.

Eladaris
Amarr
Excessum Industries
Posted - 2011.05.02 23:14:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Oriana Mortuney

And Everything Helicity said.


Quoting this because it's easier than slamming Helicity's full post again.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.05.02 23:38:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: CCP Fallout
CCP Rhayger's newest dev blog gives us details into the choice of YAF as a platform for the new forums, the work that was done to bring it up to our needs, and how we are moving forward to get them back to the public. You can read all about it here.


The biggest problem I had (ignoring the security issue obviously) was the crushingly slow load/response time's I have/had with eve gate and the new forums.

I have a fast internet connection and a powerful desktop pc and yet eve gate and the new forums were sooo slooww to load and respond it was like going back to dial-up (shudders).

While there were a number of cosmetic issues in the brief time I used it that I will report on when you next test the forums, and I personally would prefer the porting over of all the old threads, the crushing load times are why I hate using eve gate and why I disliked using the new forums.

I don't know what was making it run so slow but if you can't make internet forums/eve gate run fast over a 14+Mbps internet connection in Firefox/I.E./Chrome on a gaming rig then you are doing 'something' wrong.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2011.05.02 23:47:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Soden Rah
I don't know what was making it run so slow...

Look at the amount of crud that was downloaded for each and every page, PLUS the insane amount of javascript and ajax running for each page, and you have your answer...

Given that the world is moving towards LESS bandwidth for things like browsing (we're starting to use our mobile devices, with the limited bandwidth that comes from that), that design was doomed before it even got off...

Someone measured the download per page in the new forums, and it was like in the area of 1MB...
For myself, that'd eat up my mobile data allowance in 500 pages (not to mention being horrendously slow)...

Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front
Posted - 2011.05.02 23:56:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: CCP Karuck
Some people sure are out for blood, should we have a public execution in nullsec maybe? :)

As paying customers, we're entitled to better service. We're not entitled to know the inner workings of the corporation.

In this and some other cases, CCP FUBARed pretty badly. But even so, no one outside of CCP has a right to know what the internal HR policies are regarding disciplining employees who screw up like this. It's no one's business but CCP's. Reading a lot of the replies in this thread is just...gah. Come on, people.

You pay your electric bill, and the electric company screws up and cuts the power off. You complain, and eventually call the customer service manager to scream about the idiot who didn't check to see you paid your bill. You demand said idiot be fired. The customer service manager has no obligation to tell you what will or will not be done about the idiot. If it happens to become a media debacle and you see on the news that so-and-so was let go, that's just bad luck for the company. It was still none of your business. The only thing you are entitled to know is that your service will be restored and the company will do better. It's then the company's obligation to follow through.

If they don't follow through, you take your money and your business elsewhere. You still don't have a right to know what they're going to do about the people who screw up.

Originally by: CCP Karuck
I hope we can win your trust back some day :)

Trust was damaged here, and the only way to gain it back is with follow-through. Time will tell. In the meantime, don't mind the MORANS.

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.05.03 00:14:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Soden Rah
I don't know what was making it run so slow...

Look at the amount of crud that was downloaded for each and every page, PLUS the insane amount of javascript and ajax running for each page, and you have your answer...

Given that the world is moving towards LESS bandwidth for things like browsing (we're starting to use our mobile devices, with the limited bandwidth that comes from that), that design was doomed before it even got off...

Someone measured the download per page in the new forums, and it was like in the area of 1MB...
For myself, that'd eat up my mobile data allowance in 500 pages (not to mention being horrendously slow)...



I didn't get that much chance to look at the new forums before they went back down.
But too much crud being downloaded was definitely top of my list of probable suspects ;-).

Eve gate atm takes me more than 15 seconds to load.
In 15 seconds I can open a full HD video page on youtube and watch 14 seconds of the clip.
What I really meant is 'I don't know how you could have possibly made an internet forum run 15+ times slower than a website streaming HD video content...'.

Google (although they seem to be forgetting it, see 'google instant') built its user base on good search results FAST. I can't even remember the search engine I used before google, because google was so much faster and cleaner that once I found it I never went back. Speed is still the reason I use google, and every new thing they add that slows it down ****es me off (and gets disabled).

If the new forums are slow it doesn't matter what features they have or what they look like.
WE WILL HATE THEM...
vocally...
Please make them fast and light, or not at all.
I would much rather these old (ok looking I have no real issues with the skin) fast forums than new feature rich slow ones.

I suspect I am not alone in this.

d4refiner
Posted - 2011.05.03 00:15:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: d4refiner on 03/05/2011 00:17:07
Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
The only thing you are entitled to know is that your service will be restored and the company will do better.


The problem is that CCP never does better. Especially the web team. They do worse and worse and worse. I guarantee, the next fubar will involve credit card data.
Quote:

Originally by: CCP Karuck
I hope we can win your trust back some day :)

Trust was damaged here, and the only way to gain it back is with follow-through. Time will tell. In the meantime, don't mind the MORANS.

Trust was not damaged. Trust was destroyed. Continuing to be a CCP customer appears to be extremely risky with real world finances. If the incompetence of the forum implementation (and the blaise attitude about addressing the issues) can also be found in the account management software, god help us all. (edit: or lawyers help us all...)

Soden Rah
Gallente
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.05.03 00:30:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: d4refiner
Edited by: d4refiner on 03/05/2011 00:17:07
Originally by: Sakaane Eionell
The only thing you are entitled to know is that your service will be restored and the company will do better.


The problem is that CCP never does better. Especially the web team. They do worse and worse and worse. I guarantee, the next fubar will involve credit card data.
Quote:

Originally by: CCP Karuck
I hope we can win your trust back some day :)

Trust was damaged here, and the only way to gain it back is with follow-through. Time will tell. In the meantime, don't mind the MORANS.

Trust was not damaged. Trust was destroyed. Continuing to be a CCP customer appears to be extremely risky with real world finances. If the incompetence of the forum implementation (and the blaise attitude about addressing the issues) can also be found in the account management software, god help us all. (edit: or lawyers help us all...)


I would also point to the treatment of the design a starship competition (Facebook voting) scandal. The total lack of communication/transparency and the use of a widely hated data-mining 3rd party website to host the player voting (then made irrelevant by the devs picking the final winner after months of silence) didn't make any friends. What should have been a fun, good PR exercise turned into a series of PR debacles.
Trust is built and maintained by good communication. CCP has yet to respond in any meaningful way, and certainly has not apologised for its handling of the competition.

ceaon
Posted - 2011.05.03 01:17:00 - [82]
 

in my opinion you CCP/dev made a mistake (digg 4 mistake) you had this forums instead of making small fixes and improvements over time you did what you did and things dint end well dump the YAF take thins old forum and make updates each month

Nypheas Azurai
Posted - 2011.05.03 02:15:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Nypheas Azurai on 03/05/2011 02:31:25

Quote:
If you have any questions about the choice of YAF or anything I've detailed here please let me know and I'll do my best to provide further detail. Thanks for your patience and all your feedback (positive and negative) while we work on getting the new forums to where they need to be

Yes. What support for mods does it have if any?
Because this sort of integration stuff:
Quote:
So choosing YAF as a base was an important choice as it gave us a very solid foundation to build on, and we did further work on top of that based on direction from the community team. Once that development effort was pretty much done first pass, we deployed it in test mode to get valuable feedback from all of you. That was incredibly important. From that beta phase we got back both bug defects that were filed and reports from the community team on what else players were saying - from things that were broken to the font being too small, to some folks don't like fixed width sites, etc. That was then prioritized by the team and they worked through it.


Really should not be so painful if you're using a proper forum package. I've seen entire portals and websites hinge on (phpBB fanboi here) phpBB mods and easily swappable Authentication plugins. There are communities which have used modular forum packages to recustomize and portalize the entire site, handling everything from social networking mods, to authentication, to custom database pulls, to avatars - a whole portal integration - done in less time and with less pain. What makes the EVE portal so special, or YAF so incapable, that it should crumble and fail so easily? Is hyper modularity a design feature of YAF.net, or did you have to hack at it significantly?

My question (and concern) then is this: have you chosen the right solution if so much work and man hours and man sweat and failure was necessary to get authentication and portal plugins working? OR was YAF.net simply chosen because it was the easier way out and jived with the current technologies in place?

Natalia Kovac
Minmatar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2011.05.03 03:15:00 - [84]
 

1)Buy a VBulletin 4 license
2)Spend a couple of days customising it superficially
3)???
4)Profit!

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.05.03 03:31:00 - [85]
 

So far this dev blog makes me alternate between facepalm and headdesk. Maybe a live dev blog with people talking/yelling at you would have worked better.

Marvel Emerald
Gallente
Free Space Tech
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.05.03 03:57:00 - [86]
 

Tried YAF. It has performance and security issues, as well as large portions of ugly code.

Siiee
Recycled Heroes
Posted - 2011.05.03 06:39:00 - [87]
 

Thouroughly unsatisfying blog telling us in many words what we all already know, and skirting around any point of real relevance.

You say that user feedback was taken into account from the first two beta periods but only specify two items (font size, one of less than a dozen trivial fixes in your first laughable changelog from 2nd beta. And fixed width forum, which was /never/ resolved) You completely avoid telling us why dozens and dozens of other basic fixes and options were utterly ignored beyond saying they were "prioritized". Which I suppose is a round about way of saying "Ehh, we don't like this so it's falling off the bottom of the list" which interestingly enough is the exact same attitude that we've received regarding privacy issues in the past from the web team. Though at least then I suppose you had the balls to tell us we were being fobbed off directly.


Originally by: CCP Karuck
but let me just say that things aren't as simple as many of you make them out to be... but I know they certainly look that way.


But they are that simple. This isn't a fancy or clever coding trick that failed, it was an issue that was so very, very wrong from the very conceptual level that it should have never even made it into pseudo code, let alone any kind of real implementation. It's a "making baby toys out of solid lead" kind of face palm problem, and I'm very curious how you intend to explain it as being any more complicated than that.

Hint: "But it's :hard: to implement things the correct way" does not make the problem any more than it appears on the surface, merely layers gross negligence on top of ineptitude.

I am really looking forward to any of Sreegs upcoming blogs, but I don't have much hope for anything else that the web team might say.

Hachi Ironfist
Gallente
Rubbish and Garbage Removal
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.05.03 06:43:00 - [88]
 

Please get rid of the like button in the new forums or at least add a dislike button !!!

Darth Vapour
Posted - 2011.05.03 07:01:00 - [89]
 

It's still not quite clear to me who the 'get a brain morans' guy is supposed to be. Is it you and the others who spent 72 thousand hours on something that was pulled down after less then 72 hours or is us, the ones angry at you for having done so.

From the way this image has come to represent dumb people protesting stuff they know nothing about it seems you are trying to riducule the people angry at your terrible work.

Danny Centauri
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.05.03 07:33:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Danny Centauri on 03/05/2011 07:45:58
Sat here laughing at the common misconception that heads should roll for a mistake that infact was a series of errors for which no one person can be put to blame, the only person who can be held accountable is the project manager but thats only because its his job to be held accountable!

I work alongside a team of 8 programmers in a small company and when ever we look to the root cause of the problem its never as simple as 'the people are ****'. Normally the process is the problem, or the time pressure put on the team to make demanding release deadlines. So often projects are rushed to meet other peoples 'needs' (they don't actually need they want) which causes a series of minor **** ups.

At the end of the day people make mistakes its human nature but its not always their fault personally I would possibly blame one or all of the following:
- Poor training.
- A possibly flawed process that doesn't manage risk effectively.
- SENIOR MANAGEMENT PRESSURE (and general misunderstanding of technical aspects of project from them).
- TIME PRESSURE.
- A multitude of other smaller factors if the problem was looked into deeper.

Personally I hope CCP will step back and think about the process they have in place and how to limit risk more. I would always say a feature should be 90% finished before its announced this reduces the risk of it having to be canned and makes reputation management a hell of a lot easier. Oh and on a final note firing and hiring is a terribad idea, the cost of recruiting is high, the time for training is extensive its much easier to invest in adequate training unless the whole problem is pinned on one persons ****up.

I far from envy the position you guys are in but everyone from the biggest to smallest companies go through these problems. Just keep your heads low, walk around with an umbrella and avoid the **** storm.


Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only