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Canti Ludan
Verrocchio Workshop
Posted - 2011.04.25 18:33:00 - [1]
 

.... no this is not another request for a super massive, able to eat belts in 5 minutes request.

With all the love given to Indy side of things, how bout some love for the gas miners.

My idea is basically a T2 version of the noctis.

Slots:
6 Hi
4 Mid
3 Low

+1 gas harvestor
reduction in chance of cloud causing damage per lvl
Compress gas (maybe for the rorq)

Discuss...

Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.25 19:02:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Emperor Salazar on 25/04/2011 19:02:29
Gas harvesting is already pretty low income. This will only drive prices down further.

Canti Ludan
Verrocchio Workshop
Posted - 2011.04.25 19:05:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Canti Ludan on 25/04/2011 19:05:56
Originally by: Emperor Salazar
Edited by: Emperor Salazar on 25/04/2011 19:02:29
Gas harvesting is already pretty low income. This will only drive prices down further.


You're mining the wrong gas then.

Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.25 19:12:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Canti Ludan
Edited by: Canti Ludan on 25/04/2011 19:05:56
Originally by: Emperor Salazar
Edited by: Emperor Salazar on 25/04/2011 19:02:29
Gas harvesting is already pretty low income. This will only drive prices down further.


You're mining the wrong gas then.


Mykoserocin gases are useless, as they are for synth boosters.

There is not enough demand for better boosters, so cytoserocin gas is largely useless, except for the few manufacturers of the boosters themselves.

Wormhole gas for T3 is farmed like crazy; the only gas worth mining is the high end stuff and that is only because of its bulk. And as a direct result of that bulk, it is more practical to react it in-house than export it out.

Sorry but gas harvesting is simply not a profitable venture when compared with alternative activities.

Canti Ludan
Verrocchio Workshop
Posted - 2011.04.25 21:15:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Canti Ludan on 25/04/2011 21:18:49
I think you are seriously misinformed. I mine and sell booster gas, the guy I'm selling to can't get enough gas to keep his pos running full tilt and he is buying from multiple miners and mining it himself. Add in the fact that every cyto is being bought for 60k or better in jita.(18mill/hour)

WH gas's are a bit differnt, the cheapest gas (C70) is being bought at 300. Roughly 2mill per hour for c60.c70 and c82. However, c28, the next lowest isk/per hour, is about 17m (16,971,234.34) isk per hour. isk per hour only goes up from there.

FYI mining veld in highsec nets about 8.25m a hour. Mining ark is roughly 30m per hour.

So tell me again how gas mining is not profitable?

Canti Ludan
Verrocchio Workshop
Posted - 2011.04.25 21:48:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Canti Ludan on 25/04/2011 21:48:58
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AgFCugmWvddAdGdBZDUyYU1hODZOWGJzLW1Od3kydmc&hl=en&authkey=CIn34ZIO
Made a quick Spread sheet for ya.. enjoy

Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.26 01:49:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Emperor Salazar on 26/04/2011 02:00:22
Originally by: Canti Ludan
Edited by: Canti Ludan on 25/04/2011 21:48:58
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AgFCugmWvddAdGdBZDUyYU1hODZOWGJzLW1Od3kydmc&hl=en&authkey=CIn34ZIO
Made a quick Spread sheet for ya.. enjoy


Great, numbers are fantastic.

Now factor in overhead. You either react in on-site and thus have a POS to feed and the transport time to there, or you export it which is extremely time consuming (time=money). Pretty high number for the 90mil/hr assuming its right, but thats only one gas.

And you're missing the point. Most of your numbers are hovering at "okay" isk/hr prices. What do you think will happen when gas is harvested? Supply will increase while demand does not, resulting in lower prices and thus lower income.

As for boosters, that market fluctuates like crazy. I used to be a large part of it; it has potential to be highly lucrative or an extreme waste of time.

Remember that barrier to entry is huge in determining the value of something. The barrier to entry for mining gas effectively currently is having a cruiser or battlecruiser trained that has the CPU for 5 harvesters and a rank 1 skill trained to 5 for 5 harvesters. Pretty low barrier to entry.

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.04.26 04:10:00 - [8]
 

lol...Salazar...you are definately harvesting the wrong gas clouds. Just saying...

Definately need a dedicated gas harvester.

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.04.26 07:32:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim on 26/04/2011 07:51:33
More supply will not saturate the market, many of you forget that when prices go down, you get more customers. I've never used a single booster since I started playing EVE Online, but I'd love to start any day! They're just too damn expensive. And nobody cares much for a gas cloud, either. Point is, if boosters get cheaper, there will be more money in the booster market. This trend would continue until boosters get so cheap that everyone can have as much as they want, and we're nowhere near that point.

I suggest something on the order of the mining barge for a gas mining ship, something that will drastically increase the amount gathered. Heck, howabout a gas strip miner? Mines 3 times as fast as a regular gas miner. With 3 of them, it's like having 9 gas miners. Then you can also dedicate the Procurer to gas mining, by giving it a 50% bonus to gas mined per mining barge skill level. It'll mine the stuff faster than a Covetor, about as fast as a Hulk with max skill. It'll have a much smaller cargohold, but hey, it's also a cheap ship. That's nice for nullsec mining, and may attract very new players in search of gas. And gas doesn't take up all that much space, so the only ones fussing over the cargohold are probably bot miners.

Also, with large yields via strip miners with their slow cycle times, you don't have to have only cycle time modifiers and instead can use output modifiers.

Strip Harvester I
200m3, 200s duration
Requires Gas Cloud Harvesting 4

Strip Harvester II
300m3, 240s duration
Requires Gas Cloud Harvesting 5, Mining 5

Procurer Yield with max skills:
Tech I - 875m3/200s - 4.375/sec
Tech II - 1312.5m3/240s (eff. 1310m3) - 5.458/sec

Covetor Yield with max skills:
Tech I - 750m3/200s - 3.75/sec
Tech II - 1125m3/240s - 4.688/sec

Hulk Yield with max skills:
Tech I - 937.5m3/200s (eff. 930m3) - 4.65/sec
Tech II - 1406.25m3/240s (eff. 1400m3) - 5.833/sec

Hulk Yield with max skills and Gas Harvester Upgrade x2:
Tech I - 930m3/165.62s - 5.615/sec
Tech II - 1400m3/198.744s - 7.044/sec

Ship with 5x Gas Cloud Harvester IIs:
100m3/40s - 2.5/sec
A potential upgrade of +181.76% gas harvested!

- edited for thumbs! - ( ^___^)=b

Emperor Salazar
Caldari
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.26 11:39:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Reaver Glitterstim
Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim on 26/04/2011 07:51:33
More supply will not saturate the market, many of you forget that when prices go down, you get more customers. I've never used a single booster since I started playing EVE Online, but I'd love to start any day! They're just too damn expensive. And nobody cares much for a gas cloud, either. Point is, if boosters get cheaper, there will be more money in the booster market. This trend would continue until boosters get so cheap that everyone can have as much as they want, and we're nowhere near that point.


Booster demand isn't low because of price. Its low because of lack of interest (which is a result of a lack of knowledge among the general populace) and severe penalties. The things came pre-nerfed. Prices are actually relatively fair considering what it takes to make them (hint, don't buy from Jita, find a dealer).

As for the guy saying "you're harvesting the wrong gas." Feel free to make an actual contribution. Notice the spreadsheet above. Thats helpful. And I conceded that some gas harvesting is profitable, but I maintain that due to a low barrier to entry and a highly volatile market, gas harvesting simply is not a highly profitable venture. Making it so you can harvest faster is not going to change that fact.

ehon
Posted - 2011.04.26 14:27:00 - [11]
 

im still voting for a complete top end barge rebuild and i want it t1 forget this over priced t2 crap. make it a little smaller then he orca and orca like defensive system and mining rates around the same would be perfect to me.

Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Shadow Confederation
Posted - 2011.04.26 18:10:00 - [12]
 

A: The noctis IS a tech 2 ship... so saying a "Tech 2 version" of the Noctis is kinda silly.

B: The Gas Mining ship idealy should be similar to the Mining Barges we already have... strip miner type.


Personally I think your mining the wrong gas.

Greg Huff
Posted - 2011.04.26 18:35:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Drake Draconis
A: The noctis IS a tech 2 ship... so saying a "Tech 2 version" of the Noctis is kinda silly.
The Noctis doesn't seem to be denoted as either T1 or T2, but considering it is constructed solely from T1 minerals (i.e. no Morphite) it would be considered T1.


I don't really see a need for a dedicated gas harvesting ship.

Canti Ludan
Verrocchio Workshop
Posted - 2011.04.26 20:12:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Greg Huff
I don't really see a need for a dedicated gas harvesting ship.


Ask people what ship they use to mine gas most will tell you a BC or BS. Maybe I'm just an elitist, but a battlecruiser should be firing guns, not draging fishing nets over the side for income.

In a game of fancy spaceships, combat ships should be the last option to go mining in. Well unless your name is Chribba.

Jarqis J
Posted - 2011.06.28 14:50:00 - [15]
 

Harvested gas takes a fair bit cargo space. I have heard of hurricanes, ferox, typhoons, have been used to do this job
poke this idea people of Eve, to see the introduction of a dedicated Gas Harvesting Ship, similar to a transporter in size, resonable cargo space, with the bonus for compressing gas to a liquid as per RL.
Average measurements of the gases' to liquid compression could be similar to RL comparisons.
E.g. Nitrogen gas 696cf(cubic feet)= 1cf liquid Nitrogen, so a basic formula could be aprox 7:1, like the volume of Fullerite-C32 is 5.0 so with 35 units harvested would give 1 unit of liquid.
Having a module say mid slot or include within the ships design capable to compress the gas to liquid.
Not to forget cycle time bonus per level, there is room to improve this bring it on CCP.

Nariya Kentaya
Coalition Of Gentlemen.
Posted - 2011.06.28 16:54:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Emperor Salazar
Originally by: Reaver Glitterstim
Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim on 26/04/2011 07:51:33
More supply will not saturate the market, many of you forget that when prices go down, you get more customers. I've never used a single booster since I started playing EVE Online, but I'd love to start any day! They're just too damn expensive. And nobody cares much for a gas cloud, either. Point is, if boosters get cheaper, there will be more money in the booster market. This trend would continue until boosters get so cheap that everyone can have as much as they want, and we're nowhere near that point.


Booster demand isn't low because of price. Its low because of lack of interest (which is a result of a lack of knowledge among the general populace) and severe penalties. The things came pre-nerfed. Prices are actually relatively fair considering what it takes to make them (hint, don't buy from Jita, find a dealer).

As for the guy saying "you're harvesting the wrong gas." Feel free to make an actual contribution. Notice the spreadsheet above. Thats helpful. And I conceded that some gas harvesting is profitable, but I maintain that due to a low barrier to entry and a highly volatile market, gas harvesting simply is not a highly profitable venture. Making it so you can harvest faster is not going to change that fact.


hehe, you said GAS is a HIGHLY VOLATILE market... hehe, gas, methane.

Jack Viresi
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.06.28 22:36:00 - [17]
 

Supported.

Backtosh Redclaw
Posted - 2011.06.29 13:45:00 - [18]
 

Looking at the exsisting mining ships I agree with a noctis based variant, leave the 8 highs, allow it to equip 5 gas miners with a 25% reduction in cycle time but the hold definately needs to be around 5k m3 with enough mids/lows to fit at least minimal defensive grid. (3 mid 3 low would be sufficient) and room for 10m3 drones for defense. instead of adding turret slots to the ship just give it a special attribute to allow gas miners to be equipped. I can even see this as bieng a serpentis modified ship since they're the most likely to have developed a ship specifically for gas mining, make the requirements to fly it based on a combination of gallente industrial (3), ore industrial (3) and exhumers (3).

Based on the technical info, gas miners were originally developed as high efficiency ore miners but deemed too slow to be useful, with newer technology available for reapplication I can see the idea of gas stripminers as valid but even the T2 gas strips should have approximately 50% of the m3 yield of ore miners of the same type. I base my figures on this: a miner 1, wich is the next iteration from development of the gas miner 1, the gas miner yields 10m3/30sec or 20m3/minute versus the miner 1 wich yields 40m3/minute, the second proof iteration comes in the form of gas miner 2 vs miner 2 gas miner 2 yields 20m3/40sec or 30m3/minute vs the miner 2 wich yields 60m3 minute. Taking these figures into account as a baseline, a strip miner 1 produces 180m3/minute so a gas strip miner 1 should produce 90m3/minute or 270m3/3m cycle. The gas strip miner 2 is a bit more complicated and producing crystals for every possible gas type would be wasteful since there are many more types of gas than ore. Take a baseline of 601.2 for the strip miner 2 with T1 crystals or base of strip 2 + T2 crystals of 630m3 (skills and ship bonuses do alot for 'em) they break down to an m3/minute rate of 200.4m3 and 210m3 per minute and a baseline for the strip 2 should be somewhere around 100-110m3/minute or 300-330m3 per 3 minute cycle.

Sanwa Dufore
Posted - 2011.07.07 17:07:00 - [19]
 

I would like to see a Faction Miner Hulk/Mack just add to it a little bit like they do with the other Faction ships.

Darkside007
Posted - 2011.07.08 12:14:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Sanwa Dufore
I would like to see a Faction Miner Hulk/Mack just add to it a little bit like they do with the other Faction ships.


These ships are already faction (ORE)

Gallion
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.08 12:33:00 - [21]
 

SUPPORT! -(now how about a Support ship too?)

Trinkets friend
Posted - 2011.07.15 07:08:00 - [22]
 

Supported.

Depending on the market conditions, you can make up to 180M ISK/hr from cyto gases. My most profitable hours in EVE have been cyto sucking and C1's...or ninja salvaging.

I support this because,
firstly, we will get a new chance for an Invent A Starship competition; throw it open to the EVE community to design a cool gas ship.
Secondly, if you have a dedcated salvager ship, you may as well have a dedicated gas ship.
Thirdly, it gives the devs an ability to look at the Booster market and lowsec (aka Mylhani's idea for the mobile redneck drug lab of lowsec) in a new light
Finally, it will make w-space more vibrant and deeper because the gas mining specialists would have something new to devote a month of training towards, even if the ship buff is something as banal as extra cargo per level of skill.

Lakuma
Posted - 2011.07.16 01:35:00 - [23]
 

Needs to be moved to Features and Ideas forum...

As for the typical response - another more efficient ship will only cause gas harvesting to further drop in profitability (as if it could reach new lows). The idea that struck me as best is approaching this issue not through ships but modules or additional boosters.

One such proposal called for the total removal of attribute enhancing implants and replacing them with (legal) boosters that last a set amount of time, coming in various strengths and duration (which fleshes out the market and manufacture of them). The booster effects would then be interrupted by pod-death or change of clone (much like implants behave now). The point was that gas would get a boost in usefulness throughout the game (hisec particularly), players wouldn't be so frightful of death because boosters could be cheaper (being duration based, not permanent), and pilots who regularly engage in combat could utilize shorter duration but also cheaper boosters when out of combat.

PvP pilots aren't know for flying around with a +5 set - but they might use +5 boosters when they aren't actively in combat. Again, all of this should be in the Features and Ideas Forum so devs will be more likely to read and comment on it. (They are much more passive in the AH since topics are for the CSM).

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.07.16 04:12:00 - [24]
 

Got my support and for the guy talking about how heavy it is to hull did you forget thats with all mining.


Bo Kantrel
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.24 06:22:00 - [25]
 

How about changing the Procurer to be a Gas specific ship?

I mean, how many people fly a Procurer when a Retriever is only 17 hours away?

Fournone
Posted - 2011.07.26 18:17:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Bo Kantrel
How about changing the Procurer to be a Gas specific ship?

I mean, how many people fly a Procurer when a Retriever is only 17 hours away?



+1

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows

Posted - 2011.07.26 19:56:00 - [27]
 

Supported.

Also, it should visually expand as you mine like a pufferfish.

Henry Haphorn
Gallente

Posted - 2011.07.28 04:35:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Henry Haphorn on 28/07/2011 04:35:03
/supported

Seeing how the boosters market will be expanded in the later iterations of Incarna, this may help bring more demand for boosters as players fail to pay other player their "dues" when they they caught at the gate.

However, as a side note, there is an item in the July 2011 Prioritization Crowdsourcing List that mentioned about allowing covert cynos in high sec so I have no clue how that could effect demand (assuming it becomes a priority at all for the CSM).

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.07.29 08:41:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Bo Kantrel
How about changing the Procurer to be a Gas specific ship?

I mean, how many people fly a Procurer when a Retriever is only 17 hours away?



That's what I said! :)

Photon Ceray
Posted - 2011.07.30 17:31:00 - [30]
 

I don't mine, but I agree that gas mining needs a dedicated ship.


 

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