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Lithia Tsanov
Posted - 2011.04.22 19:20:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Lithia Tsanov on 22/04/2011 19:20:49
How are jam timers going to be handled, seeing as they're horribly broken in all sorts of ways at the moment? BugID 92552

https://bugs.eveonline.com/files/50972719257.jpg

LT

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.22 19:32:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Stafen
Well I think the problem you are seeing is due to the "silent majority" not voting for the CSM and thus not having a loud voice.

The CSM council members are all in 0.0 alliances (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Members_of_the_sixth_CSM)

Well, first of all, there are several of us who most certainly did not run as "nullsec" candidates.

And more importantly, Team Gridlock is dedicated to lag-fighting, so CSM support of Variable Tau (aka Time Dilation, but someone didn't like the TD abbreviation... Evil or Very Mad) is just our opinion of where to best spend resources that were going to be dedicated to some form of lag-fighting anyway -- it does not divert resources away from other game improvements.

Finally, looking at the list of summit sessions CSM has requested, only one of them is purely nullsec-oriented. The rest address broad issues that affect people all over the game.

That said, if you want to work to get out the highsec vote next time in favor of qualified, broadly based candidates, who am I to tell you no? Twisted Evil

Xeron Rich
Posted - 2011.04.22 19:39:00 - [123]
 

great concept! can't wait to hear more & help test this feature if/when it comes to singularity.

Sable Blitzmann
Minmatar
Massively Dynamic
Posted - 2011.04.22 19:48:00 - [124]
 

Love the idea, curious on how it'll be introduced lore-wise. =D

Ranger 1
Amarr
Ranger Corp
Posted - 2011.04.22 19:53:00 - [125]
 

Edited by: Ranger 1 on 22/04/2011 19:58:19
I have to say, petitions from people that don't keep up on such things should be amusing after this goes into effect.

"I lost my ship because the game wouldn't respond to my commands properly. I jumped into X system and a pirate was there waiting for me. I think there was some sort of big fight going on elsewhere in system, as there were wrecks everywhere."

"I immediate turned to run back to the gate, but my ship just sat there. Fortunately, the pirate just sat there studying me. Realizing that I would probably not make it, I clicked to warp to the nearest celestial object and since I wasn't targeted yet I activated my cloak."

"My ship finally started to move, but much to my surprise it turned in the direction of the gate instead of where I wanted to go. Worse yet, the pirate chose that moment to lock me up."

"I decided to fight, which meant I'd have to get into close range. I clicked frantically to go into a close orbit, but instead my ship veered off at an oblique angle and tried to cloak!!! Obviously this failed and I started taking significant damage, the pirate continued to advance and fire."

"I estimated my only chance was to try and run directly away from the pirate, I was a bit faster than he. When I double clicked away from him, my ship instead veered almost directly towards him, ignoring my commands."

"In the end I died, and my ship never did respond to my commands properly."

"I want my ship back!!! Fix your game!!!!"

... ah, good times...


Khanid Voltar
Night's Dawn Investment Fund
Posted - 2011.04.22 20:09:00 - [126]
 

Nice blog, might be persuaded to come back to 0.0 if this works right!

Would it be fair to say that things like the speed of the ship / missile / tracking / drones would not be affected by Time Dilation, with the exception of the item taking longer to cycle?

EG things work exactly as they ideally would do now. The only thing affected is the length of time it takes for the server to respond to the request. Eg a ship or missile travelling at 2kmps under time dialation would still travel at the same speed. Tracking etc would not be affected; just the response time of the pilot / module.

Hope that makes sense!

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.22 20:31:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow


And more importantly, Team Gridlock is dedicated to lag-fighting, so CSM support of Variable Tau (aka Time Dilation, but someone didn't like the TD abbreviation... Evil or Very Mad) is just our opinion of where to best spend resources that were going to be dedicated to some form of lag-fighting anyway -- it does not divert resources away from other game improvements.



Both CSM and the devblog said that TD is being prioritized because of the CSM. It sounds like it's going to take at least 9 months to make it happen. What would Team Gridlock have prioritized otherwise? Devblog said they've already got as many easy wins as they feel they're going to get... would it be more of the same just with less spectacular results, or was TD inevitable?

Lithia Tsanov
Posted - 2011.04.22 21:12:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Ranger 1
Edited by: Ranger 1 on 22/04/2011 19:58:19
I have to say, petitions from people that don't keep up on such things should be amusing after this goes into effect.

"I lost my ship because the game wouldn't respond to my commands properly. I jumped into X system and a pirate was there waiting for me. I think there was some sort of big fight going on elsewhere in system, as there were wrecks everywhere."

"I immediate turned to run back to the gate, but my ship just sat there. Fortunately, the pirate just sat there studying me. Realizing that I would probably not make it, I clicked to warp to the nearest celestial object and since I wasn't targeted yet I activated my cloak."

"My ship finally started to move, but much to my surprise it turned in the direction of the gate instead of where I wanted to go. Worse yet, the pirate chose that moment to lock me up."

"I decided to fight, which meant I'd have to get into close range. I clicked frantically to go into a close orbit, but instead my ship veered off at an oblique angle and tried to cloak!!! Obviously this failed and I started taking significant damage, the pirate continued to advance and fire."

"I estimated my only chance was to try and run directly away from the pirate, I was a bit faster than he. When I double clicked away from him, my ship instead veered almost directly towards him, ignoring my commands."

"In the end I died, and my ship never did respond to my commands properly."

"I want my ship back!!! Fix your game!!!!"

... ah, good times...




How is the petition example that you supply any different than the current state of the game?

Last note, if our subscription costs are per-month, do they go down as a result of Ti-Di? I pay for 'full seconds'. If the server is TiDi'ing at 10%, I should only be charged 10% for those seconds.

Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2011.04.22 21:15:00 - [129]
 

Quote:
It's often said that the War on Lag cannot be won because our players can always bring one more ship.

So why not address the problem by making it harder for such blobs to form in the first place, by nerfing all forms of long distance travel?

I don't disagree with the time dilation concept in theory, but unless things like jump clones, jump bridge networks, capital ship jump ranges etc are also heavily nerfed, bullet time will become the norm in every single PvP encounter of consequence.

CCP's proposal is basically to change said encounters from being "free-for-all" slideshows to "balanced" slideshows. While I suppose that is an improvement on the status quo, what would be even better is if fights were mechanically prevented from becoming so stupidly large to begin with, so that time dilation is rarely - if ever - needed at all.

Klam
Amarr
FACTS on EVE
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.04.22 21:47:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Ben Derindar
So why not address the problem by making it harder for such blobs to form in the first place, by nerfing all forms of long distance travel?



Are large battles a "problem"? I sure as hell didn't think so. There's some serious disagreement there. Lag is the problem, not the size of the battles.

Eve is a single shard massively multiplayer game. Part of the draw for many players, including myself, is the massive fleet fights. What other game can you have battles the size and scope of Eve?

When fleet fights are without disruptive lag they are truly awesome and memorable. Artificially forcing small fleet fights by making travel more difficult doesn't solve the problem. It just makes it less prone to happen without Sov or POS timers involved. Sov timers would still make large fights happen, there would just be more time to travel to the destination.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.04.22 21:56:00 - [131]
 

Time dilation comes from relativity. If we use it, we can also use the nomenclature from relativity.

In relativity the variable for time in the reference frame is t. In the moving frame it is usually tau. The ratio of the two, that is the amount of time dilation present, is gamma. Gamma increases from one, going to infinity as you approach lightspeed.

I propose we use Gamma to describe the amount of TD currently taking place.

A gamma of 3 means that each server tick takes 3 seconds, a gamma of 10 would be 10 seconds, and so on.

When a new player joins a big fleet fight one thing they will be asking is "Whats gamma up to?"


P.S. Yes, that means the book "Tau Zero" should really be named "Gamma Infinity".

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.22 21:58:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: mkint
Both CSM and the devblog said that TD is being prioritized because of the CSM. It sounds like it's going to take at least 9 months to make it happen. What would Team Gridlock have prioritized otherwise? Devblog said they've already got as many easy wins as they feel they're going to get... would it be more of the same just with less spectacular results, or was TD inevitable?

The CSM has never claimed that TD is getting priority just because of our support. We are all extremely modest fellows, and would never make such an egotistical claim.

As Veritas has pointed out, TD has long been on the to-do list. The positive response to TD at FanFest, plus public CSM support, simply moved it higher on the list, so that it is getting done a bit earlier.

Helping CCP make better prioritization decisions is a big part of what CSM does. And the whole point of the spotlight idea is to bring these kinds of things to the attention of the players, which enables us to gather feedback and improve the arguments we present to CCP.

sableye
principle of motion
Posted - 2011.04.22 22:13:00 - [133]
 

sounds intresting, will npc's also be tiem dialted cause they could take out half you fleet if a few spawned on gate if not, well maybe thats a slight exagaration.

also will it affect really busy mission running systems in any way do you think.

Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2011.04.22 22:31:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Klam
Originally by: Ben Derindar
So why not address the problem by making it harder for such blobs to form in the first place, by nerfing all forms of long distance travel?


Are large battles a "problem"? I sure as hell didn't think so. There's some serious disagreement there. Lag is the problem, not the size of the battles.

When battles become large enough to cause the crippling lag we see these days, then yes those battles are the problem.

Originally by: Klam
Eve is a single shard massively multiplayer game. Part of the draw for many players, including myself, is the massive fleet fights. What other game can you have battles the size and scope of Eve?

So your definition of fun in Eve PvP is simply a matter of the scale of the fight, regardless of the extent of the gamebreaking side effects? If so, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

For me, fun goes right out the window in situations where my fate is determined by circumstances beyond my control, and that includes most fleet fights of today. All battles beyond 200v200 or thereabouts are large in my book; the only effective difference at that point is how much lag is created by how many more reinforcements both sides bring.

Don't get me wrong, I like the time dilation idea, but I'd far rather other mechanics be changed first. Lagfree battles of hundreds > laggy battles of thousands. Time dilation merely balances the lag, it doesn't remove it. And the only way that will ever happen is to make it too hard for people to form up from across the entire galaxy within hours. Ergo, nerf travel.

Originally by: Klam
When fleet fights are without disruptive lag they are truly awesome and memorable.

Absolutely. I've been in some humdingers over the years myself.

Originally by: Klam
Artificially forcing small fleet fights by making travel more difficult doesn't solve the problem.

Neither does time dilation. Both solutions are artificial in their own way.

Nerf travel and it becomes harder for people to find fights within a realistic distance from home -> the need for such large alliances and powerblocs falls away -> people look for fights closer to home -> current global conflicts break down into more manageable regional ones -> the biggest fights become smaller, but there are more of them and they are lagfree, with no bullet time required.

Welp, dreams are free I suppose. vOv

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2011.04.22 22:55:00 - [135]
 

At the moment I can only think of these things that should not be affected by TD: PI timers and Insurance.

TraderAlt117
Posted - 2011.04.22 23:20:00 - [136]
 

A potential issue I can see with it would be non-dilation of surrounding systems. The biggest example I can think of for this would include the removal/reduction of force projection ie. jump bridges and titan bridges.

Scenario: Your alliance/corporation has roamed and reinforced an important tower (tech/strategic w/e) 12 jumps from the system with the reffed tower. The defending alliance/coalition sets their staging area 2 jumps from system. Both sides have their members set clones correctly and have a few different types of ship (drakearmy/alphafleet/hellcat) and replacements in their staging area.

The defending force is going to be able to reinforce and adapt much easier than the attacking force - nothing changed from the current situation i know, but the effects are going to be a lot more noticeable because people are going to be able to jump in new fleets with safety rather than saying 'its lagged to **** don't bother' and bringing in new fleets designed to counter enemy fleets when say, a minute of 1:1 combat time has passed. The attacking fleet has to do the same, but struggle with 4 minutes of 1:1 combat time having passed until their new fleet type hits the battle. It may seem a small difference, but it would soon add up as a battle progresses, and with more damage from both sides being applied the time would count for more. It could make people cautious of attacking anywhere too far away without constant titan bridges, as they are going to get countered and killed a lot quicker than they can react to.

For the economy this could be very beneficial, as people will apply more and more meat into the grinder if they know that the meat will be able to load, and be well suited to countering the enemy meat. All this will mean will be more ships destroyed = bigger isk sink = better economy. And we get an epic step in the fight against lag at the same time.

Klam
Amarr
FACTS on EVE
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.04.23 00:00:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Klam on 23/04/2011 00:14:14
Originally by: Ben Derindar
Originally by: Klam

Are large battles a "problem"? I sure as hell didn't think so. There's some serious disagreement there. Lag is the problem, not the size of the battles.

When battles become large enough to cause the crippling lag we see these days, then yes those battles are the problem.


The lag is the problem, not the fight.

Originally by: Ben Derindar
Originally by: Klam
Eve is a single shard massively multiplayer game. Part of the draw for many players, including myself, is the massive fleet fights. What other game can you have battles the size and scope of Eve?

So your definition of fun in Eve PvP is simply a matter of the scale of the fight, regardless of the extent of the gamebreaking side effects? If so, then we'll have to agree to disagree.


Agreeing to disagree may be easier. But I'd rather get to the root of the problem and disagreement first. The we can agree to disagree on the core issue. Large fights who's outcome is determined by lag and server chance is not what is fun. The capability of having large fights where tactics, organization, and skill of hundreds of players has a tangible outcome IS fun.

Originally by: Ben Derindar
For me, fun goes right out the window in situations where my fate is determined by circumstances beyond my control, and that includes most fleet fights of today. All battles beyond 200v200 or thereabouts are large in my book; the only effective difference at that point is how much lag is created by how many more reinforcements both sides bring.


I'm sorry to hear that you don't enjoy the large scale battles that eve has made possible. I've been in plenty of 200 v 200 battles where lag isn't the determining factor. Fleet Commanders, Ship/Fitting choices, and the masses following orders [and shutting up on comms Cool] makes the difference. Often in those cases my fate is out of my direct control, but I, and many others still have fun.

Originally by: Ben Derindar
Don't get me wrong, I like the time dilation idea, but I'd far rather other mechanics be changed first. Lagfree battles of hundreds > laggy battles of thousands. Time dilation merely balances the lag, it doesn't remove it. And the only way that will ever happen is to make it too hard for people to form up from across the entire galaxy within hours. Ergo, nerf travel.


My definition of the lag monster and yours appear to differ here. For me the lag monster prevents people from properly appearing on grid, issuing warp command, and activating modules. Slowing down time and getting rid of the above lack of control *fixes* the lag problem for me.

Originally by: Ben Derindar
Originally by: Klam
When fleet fights are without disruptive lag they are truly awesome and memorable.

Absolutely. I've been in some humdingers over the years myself.


Ok, so if you DO like large fleet battles, then I'm very confused...

Originally by: Ben Derindar
Originally by: Klam
Artificially forcing small fleet fights by making travel more difficult doesn't solve the problem.

Neither does time dilation. Both solutions are artificial in their own way.

Nerf travel and it becomes harder for people to find fights within a realistic distance from home -> the need for such large alliances and powerblocs falls away -> people look for fights closer to home -> current global conflicts break down into more manageable regional ones -> the biggest fights become smaller, but there are more of them and they are lagfree, with no bullet time required.

Welp, dreams are free I suppose. vOv



Ah, finally here's your core issue. Your problem isn't with large fleet fights causing lag, or large fleet fights not being fun... You have a problem with large power blocks. You are justifying your stance due to laggy fleet fights.

The issue of time dilation is to fix lack of control during large fleet engagements. Take your issues with power blocks and ways to fix them to another thread.

Monkey M3n
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.04.23 00:08:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Monkey M3n on 23/04/2011 00:08:42
Sounds very secure and not exploitable i like this idea a lot.

Great thinking!


What happen to those new forums btw?

TEAM AMERICA SIGNING OUT

Reiisha
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.04.23 00:49:00 - [139]
 

So where's the nod to hired goon?

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.04.23 01:36:00 - [140]
 

While I do like the novel approach to fighting lag, the idea of slowing down the very flow of time in one area just does not fit well with having one persistent universe. Especially when the slowdown can be quite easily created on demand and can spread even between systems.

Just a few examples of what I mean:

Your fleet is getting wiped out by the enemy fleet, but you have reinforcements coming from many jumps away. Normally they wouldn't get to you on time. But you deploy drones, start shooting each other, spamming random commands, etc. to lag out the node you are in, the fight slows down, and this gives your enemy much less effective time to finish you off before help arrives.

The enemy is trying to repair their recently reinforced assets. You are gathering your forces, but you need, say, 30 minutes to form up. Normally, the repairs would be done in 20. So you get an army of alts in ibises to a system which shares the node with the one where the eneemy is, and start shooting each other. Time on the node slows down to 50%, giving you more than enough time to strike back.

Your enemy attacks you at two places at once. You have a fleet strong enough to deter either of the attacks, but not to split and defeat them both at once. Normally, you could go to one place, defend it, and still catch a titan bridge to the other place and save that as well. With TD, however, as soon as you engage one of the enemy fleets, time slows down, and a fight that would normally take 30 minutes of real time now takes 60. This gives the other enemy fleet enough time to destroy their target. Which basically means that although you have a force big enough to defend yourself, you lose one of the fights by default, as TD will not allow you to move efficiently.

You could significantly slow down large fleet movements by just throwing a very small squad of expendable ships at them (Drakes anyone?) Even though normally it would just get wiped out, with TD getting in the way this will also delay warps, aligns, jumps, etc. for the large fleet.

I have already mentioned elsewhere problems with reinforcement timers being affected (or not being affected).

I could go on for a bit more. Long story short: slowing down one part of the universe will have a significant impact on the rest of it as well.

Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.23 01:43:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Ben Derindar
Quote:
It's often said that the War on Lag cannot be won because our players can always bring one more ship.

So why not address the problem by making it harder for such blobs to form in the first place, by nerfing all forms of long distance travel?

Hi. Let me remind you of the concept of "staging system close to the fight". If we're getting to the point where we're looking at 500v500, guess what? People'll relocate their PVP chars and materials.

That's what we did during the fountain war, we all basically staged out of b-d. Of course there were the occasional idiot who had to travel all the way from vfk, but that was more the exception rather than the rule.

Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2011.04.23 03:31:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Klam
Originally by: Ben Derindar
When battles become large enough to cause the crippling lag we see these days, then yes those battles are the problem.

The lag is the problem, not the fight.

And what causes lag again? Too many people in one place? Why, that sounds a lot like wherever fleet battles take place. (Also Jita, heh.)

Originally by: Klam
I'd rather get to the root of the problem and disagreement first. The we can agree to disagree on the core issue. Large fights who's outcome is determined by lag and server chance is not what is fun. The capability of having large fights where tactics, organization, and skill of hundreds of players has a tangible outcome IS fun.

Agree completely.

Originally by: Klam
I'm sorry to hear that you don't enjoy the large scale battles that eve has made possible.

So am I.

Originally by: Klam
My definition of the lag monster and yours appear to differ here. For me the lag monster prevents people from properly appearing on grid, issuing warp command, and activating modules. Slowing down time and getting rid of the above lack of control *fixes* the lag problem for me.

Except that when time is slowed down enough, the gameplay still slows down so much, it might as well be turn-based.

Originally by: Klam
Originally by: Ben Derindar
Originally by: Klam
When fleet fights are without disruptive lag they are truly awesome and memorable.

Absolutely. I've been in some humdingers over the years myself.

Ok, so if you DO like large fleet battles, then I'm very confused...

When they're lag-free, yes. But as I've already said, time dilation, while an improvement on the existing situation, doesn't actually do anything to remove the lag, it merely "balances" it.

Originally by: Klam
Originally by: Ben Derindar
Nerf travel and it becomes harder for people to find fights within a realistic distance from home -> the need for such large alliances and powerblocs falls away -> people look for fights closer to home -> current global conflicts break down into more manageable regional ones -> the biggest fights become smaller, but there are more of them and they are lagfree, with no bullet time required.

Ah, finally here's your core issue. Your problem isn't with large fleet fights causing lag, or large fleet fights not being fun... You have a problem with large power blocks. You are justifying your stance due to laggy fleet fights.

Lol. I was in one of the biggest alliances in the game for some time and took part in - sometimes even led - many a fleet op. Did I enjoy said ops? Only when it didn't lag. Would I have enjoyed them more with time dilation? Possibly, I don't know. Would I have enjoyed them more had all sides involved not been able to form such massive blobs to begin with? Yes. Would the lag have been reduced across the board in that situation? Most definitely yes.

Originally by: Klam
The issue of time dilation is to fix lack of control during large fleet engagements. Take your issues with power blocks and ways to fix them to another thread.

Been there, done that. Now calm down.

Yanshee
Posted - 2011.04.23 04:07:00 - [143]
 

I'm looking forward to this greatly. In fact, I think it could have an additional positive impact on large scale fights...thinking time.

Even the best FC's might be processing the information available to them as fast as they can but issuing the orders takes time none-the-less.

TD would mean that large fights could be better micro-managed with more specific orders and more complicated tactics being employed rather than 'primary is... secondary is... primary is...'

Also agree that a visual representation of extent of TD would be very useful rather than judging from module cycle timers, for example. It would allow the FC, and the fleet as a whole, to better judge what level of communication can be achieved and to what level the micro-management can extend.

kKayron Jarvis
Caldari
Tech 3 Constructions
Posted - 2011.04.23 04:25:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: kKayron Jarvis on 23/04/2011 04:25:58
with out looking at all the post this come to mide

cyno fields have 2 times of 10 mis. one for all over systems runing at real time for jumping in and one that is dilated to the system. this is for cap ship jumping to cyno fields

so the system is dilated to 50% with a cyno runing a ship jumps to the cyno the real timeer is at 8 mis in and dilated time is at 4.5 mis in so the jumpe has to wate till the dilated time is the same for him to come on grid(the messeng ho will get is like " time is dilated time on grid is in MM:SS")

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.23 07:31:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: mkint
Both CSM and the devblog said that TD is being prioritized because of the CSM. It sounds like it's going to take at least 9 months to make it happen. What would Team Gridlock have prioritized otherwise? Devblog said they've already got as many easy wins as they feel they're going to get... would it be more of the same just with less spectacular results, or was TD inevitable?

The CSM has never claimed that TD is getting priority just because of our support. We are all extremely modest fellows, and would never make such an egotistical claim.

As Veritas has pointed out, TD has long been on the to-do list. The positive response to TD at FanFest, plus public CSM support, simply moved it higher on the list, so that it is getting done a bit earlier.

Helping CCP make better prioritization decisions is a big part of what CSM does. And the whole point of the spotlight idea is to bring these kinds of things to the attention of the players, which enables us to gather feedback and improve the arguments we present to CCP.


Firstly, lol @ calling Mittens modest. I'm pretty sure I could find a quote of Mittens saying something like "yes, CCP is doing what I say because I tell them to" in only slightly more diplomatic wording (plus d1ck jokes.)

Secondly, I'm still curious what CCP would have been working on instead. I mean if Gridlock wasn't going to do TD right now, what else was on the table? There's definitely a tradeoff. Is the tradeoff on this being 3000 pilot lagless fights in exchange for smoother lag? I know such dramatic gains are unlikely, but there are still only so many hours in a day.

Makko Gray
Pheno-Tech Industries
Crimson Wings.
Posted - 2011.04.23 07:41:00 - [146]
 

Very interesting idea, so as I understand it the real clock works as normal so time will progress from 16:30 to 17:00 as normal but the game time dialates so in normal time 1800 second would pass but under dialated time it only 900 seconds may pass in that real world half hour. And as a result some events could be linked to the real clock and events of the 'update every 10 seconds' would work to dialated time.

Neat idea but I can see where it gets difficult especially with cynos as has previously been mentioned as there a number of combinations depending on the time dialation of the origin and destination.

If the cyno suffers time dialation then then people jumping in from an unaffected system have a much greater window, this could perhaps be mitigated by not placing them on the grid until the they sync with the dialated time, though this would leave them in limbo.

Perhaps the alternative presents more problems in that if the cyno is lit in a non dialated system for a fleet in a dialted one, under which circustances the dialation will allow them much less time to respond and obviously you couldn't do the sync in reverse as this would mean placing them on grid before they'd left. It'd also require the cyno lighter to stay alive much longer. Perhaps under these circumstances you could keep the cyno alive under time dialation even but just drop them on grid asap. Or just accept the situation as has to be done currently anyway.

ThisIsntMyMain
Posted - 2011.04.23 09:52:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
While I do like the novel approach to fighting lag, the idea of slowing down the very flow of time in one area just does not fit well with having one persistent universe. Especially when the slowdown can be quite easily created on demand and can spread even between systems.

Just a few examples of what I mean:

Your fleet is getting wiped out by the enemy fleet, but you have reinforcements coming from many jumps away. Normally they wouldn't get to you on time. But you deploy drones, start shooting each other, spamming random commands, etc. to lag out the node you are in, the fight slows down, and this gives your enemy much less effective time to finish you off before help arrives.



They're already doing this. Been doing it for years. Its called deliberately crashing the node. Its a consequence of this strange thing called Lag.

Quote:

The enemy is trying to repair their recently reinforced assets. You are gathering your forces, but you need, say, 30 minutes to form up. Normally, the repairs would be done in 20. So you get an army of alts in ibises to a system which shares the node with the one where the eneemy is, and start shooting each other. Time on the node slows down to 50%, giving you more than enough time to strike back.



From the Dev blog posted you're going to need a LOT of Ibisis (Ibi ?) to get 50% TD (or Gamma, I kinda like that). If you can get 500 Ibis, why cant you get 500 drakes ?

Quote:

Your enemy attacks you at two places at once. You have a fleet strong enough to deter either of the attacks, but not to split and defeat them both at once. Normally, you could go to one place, defend it, and still catch a titan bridge to the other place and save that as well. With TD, however, as soon as you engage one of the enemy fleets, time slows down, and a fight that would normally take 30 minutes of real time now takes 60. This gives the other enemy fleet enough time to destroy their target. Which basically means that although you have a force big enough to defend yourself, you lose one of the fights by default, as TD will not allow you to move efficiently.



Well, tough luck. Sorry. But its better than having your fleet logged onto a crashed node or staring at nothing and missing the second fight. At least you're actually getting to play the game.

Quote:

You could significantly slow down large fleet movements by just throwing a very small squad of expendable ships at them (Drakes anyone?) Even though normally it would just get wiped out, with TD getting in the way this will also delay warps, aligns, jumps, etc. for the large fleet.



You can already do the same. This is the same as your first point and has the same counter argument.

Quote:

I have already mentioned elsewhere problems with reinforcement timers being affected (or not being affected).



Read the Dev blog again. Reinforcement timers aren't affected. Basically anything that normally happens immediately - guns cycling, shooting, repping, dying etc all gets slowed. Things that happen slowly - eg PI, POS and Station Timers, Moon Mining etc still happen at "normal" time.

Quote:

I could go on for a bit more. Long story short: slowing down one part of the universe will have a significant impact on the rest of it as well.


Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. Nobody is saying that this is the perfect solution. But you have to admit that its going to be WAAAAYYYYYY better than staring at a black screen for an hour and then waking up in a station.

Right now, Lag in a heavily loaded system can be so crippling that the game is a total waste of time. Staring at a black screen is not fun. Paradoxically, the thing is that by slowing the clock rate by 50%, you will get a much more playable game than you get now. Things will be slow but your 4 hour lag fest will probably take LESS time.

Sigras
Gallente
Conglomo
Posted - 2011.04.23 10:02:00 - [148]
 

To all the people talking about the effect this will have on large fleet fights receiving reinforcements, I have this to say

If Eve worked properly from the beginning, this is how it always would have been.

Meaning that in my experience, numbers usually arent the problem in a large fleet battle, its that people dont want to jump into a system just to end up in a station before loading grid.

That being said, I think that by not dilating any of the surrounding systems, youre handing an advantage to the person trying to retreat because if your pursuit fleet has to wait out its aggression timer in a 50% dilated system, that gives the retreating army twice as much time to get off the gate etc.

I support this idea as it is the only dynamic way ive ever seen to handle lag, and here I thought that it couldnt be done dynamically.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.23 11:00:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
I could go on for a bit more. Long story short: slowing down one part of the universe will have a significant impact on the rest of it as well.

Good points, but garden-variety lag can cause similar issues as well. You basically have to pick your poison.

I will admit that it is amusing that manipulation of space-time may become a tactical option in EVE.

ivar R'dhak
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.23 11:05:00 - [150]
 

For what itīs worth I fully support this(gooo Veritas)!

Itīs a bit disconcerting though, that it took so long for you guys at CCP to decide about writing a proper worst-case scenario behavior for your "reality-simulation" engine.
Wasnīt aware that this was so low a priority in the house. Surprised

So kudos to the current CSM for finally getting the ball rolling.


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