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The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.27 09:34:00 - [241]
 

Originally by: Sable Schroedinger
Something else?


I think I narrowed down what depresses me the most about them here:

Linkage

Basically fixing her very poor point blank performance back into a working state for solo/small gang pvp outside of undock ranges and idealized 1o1s where anything starts at 0.

I don't really feel that puls tracking deserves a nerf, since this doesn't make blaster pvp more attractive in the end and only hurts puls ships in solo/small gang fights where they should deserve her role to. I have no issues if the puls laser represents the clearly superior turret outside of point blank combat with very limited tackle on the field.

My issues are more that the blaster ship isn't the clearly superior solution if the tackle is very limited where it excels in combining a very heavy tackler with the plain best damage dealer when you can manage to narrow the fight down to point blank. It should overcome the general issues of other turret ships at point blank in solo/small gang pvp, not by flexibility like mini, but by raw force and a far better ability to resist counter fits(undersized hulls, AB fits, dualprob, TDs, neuts, kitting at web range) at her actual combat range. Basically the concept it was before QR, where the limitation was the poor range but with the ability to get in range depending on the kitting skills of both pilots and a fair chance to beat the target once you did manage to force it down to your range.

I would however agree that TEs could do with only 20-15% falloff bonus instead of the 30% they offer now, to increase the advantage of puls lasers at medium range and bring AC fittings back into the middle ground between lower DPS at med range and not superior at web range.

Sable Schroedinger
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.05.27 10:45:00 - [242]
 

The problem with pulse lasers is that the tracking is not significantly worse than that of ACs and Blasters, therefore there is no encouragement to try and get in under the tracking of these weapons that have such a good range. Therefore, a solid range projection + comparable tracking = a near unbeatable combination.

Basically, in the game of rock, paper scissors, you fight a blaster boat by pulling to range and so mitigating all or most of their damage. Pulse Lasers were fought by charging in close and getting under the tracking to mitigate the damage. ACs could do both, but did lower damage at range, but were fragile up close and mitigated their speed advantage when webbed/scrammed. Obviously that example is simplified to the point of inaccuracy, but Iím sure it illustrates the point.

The reason pulse laser tracking hurts blaster boats is that they have the damage projection (and insta change crystals) to start dealing damage at almost any range. So outside of a warp to zero gank, a blaster boat is looking at starting with a heavy damage debt to try and make up and even if they manage to close they will not be able to mitigate enough damage compared to their higher DPS to recover. But that comparison aside, if your pulse lasers do not run the risk of not excelling in any given combat range, then there is little reason to use another weapon type, especially if those weapon types come with heavy drawbacks (such as blasters).

As far as I can tell, no one is arguing that blasters are useless, however what is clear is that changes made over the last few years have, amongst the issues raised before, broadened the effectiveness of the other weapon types with only blasters remaining unchanged, something that has resulted in not a useless weapon system, but one that no longer excels over its counterparts but still carries its heavy restrictions. Personally I see no future in homogenising the weapon types, what is needed is to accentuate their differences again as they have been eroded by one method or another.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.27 12:31:00 - [243]
 

Depends a lot on how you look at it Sable.

For solo/small gang you have basically a break between cruiser/frig an BC/BS.

In the frig/cruiser class the puls ships really on her high range and kitting ability while the blaster ships use on her raw power to take them down at point blank. Puls ships need her tracking in this scenarios to remain competitive since they heavily relay on scorch + kitting and not really sport superior tanks.

Both are fairly even if you compare them in this scenarios and mostly settle it by piloting skills.

If you go to BC\BS the amarr ships tend to make a lot more use of her superior EHP and her good range makes them effective as damage dealer at a lot of ranges. However the ships also become a lot slower by making use of heavy armor tanks what gives them considerable handicaps when it comes to tackle faster targets or control range.

Blaster based gallente hulls are in the same boat here what further increases her range handicap and I wouldn't really say that I'm satisfied with the point blank performance of the blaster ships in this scenarios, even with the tracking bonused hulls like the mega, and they are already more suited for this tasks than laser based hulls as we speak.

This are basically the only scenarios where you could get under somebody else tracking. Ideally the blaster hull should have the ability to get in range of the laser hull here quick and beat it by raw power instead of making use of a highly situational mechanic where blaster ships with her high sigs mostly even out tracking at point blank against her targets. That said, the stronger web does actually improve the ability to get under someone else tracking, since it gives you considerable more control over range and transversal.

The only exception would be AHAC style gangs that mostly relay on ABs and very low sigs, where blaster ships are also not a viable choice by the need keeping out of tackling range for the AHACs and the problems to move yourself into combat range against gangs of very fast ships. But this are already fleet fight territory, where laser ships makes full use of his superior range and damage projection abilities and should come out on top.

Basically a lot of laser hulls already have weaknesses in scenarios where you can get under guns. The higher speed, selectable damage types, capless guns, easier fitting and more utility in form of neuts already makes minmatar super competitive against them in solo/small gang so I see no real reason to hand out a nerf to them. I'm not really interested in mono culture for small gang/solo pvp like it is for fleet fights since a while now.

What I really want to see is a highly competitive blaster pvp in this scenarios that makes the trade off in the ability to be effective at range or versatility for raw power and being a lethal opponent in a point blank stand off fight against a huge variety of possible targets.


Rushnik
Minmatar
Anhalter's Minions
Posted - 2011.05.27 16:06:00 - [244]
 

Originally by: The Djego


What I really want to see is a highly competitive blaster pvp in this scenarios that makes the trade off in the ability to be effective at range or versatility for raw power and being a lethal opponent in a point blank stand off fight against a huge variety of possible targets.




Lets say the blasters >= medium get a little more tracking and damage boost; That would make them more effektive in close range. But the whole point is that blasters are supposed to be closerange only. Making their T2 ammo's attributes more like barrage is a nice option but shouldnt be the fix.
So we come to this:

Originally by: Sable Schroedinger

The reason pulse laser tracking hurts blaster boats is that they have the damage projection (and insta change crystals) to start dealing damage at almost any range. So outside of a warp to zero gank, a blaster boat is looking at starting with a heavy damage debt to try and make up and even if they manage to close they will not be able to mitigate enough damage compared to their higher DPS to recover. But that comparison aside, if your pulse lasers do not run the risk of not excelling in any given combat range, then there is little reason to use another weapon type, especially if those weapon types come with heavy drawbacks (such as blasters).



In a fight with multiple opponents that have more range the blasterboat will be forced to close the distance fast to be able to apply its damage - while doing so it will be shot and will propably be priority, that hurts. After reaching and hopefully killing its opponent it has 2 choices: to flee, or to fight. While fleeing is not always possible its often forced to fight. Which will make the pilot begin at step one - getting in range.

Other weapon systems dont have that big problem and that seems like a gamble going with blasters into PVP.
Another problem is that the fastest approach is a straight line making blasters even less advantageous, what would explain why blasters on fast moving agil frigates perform much better because they spend less time in a low transversal (and their sig radius is small I know).

----

Originally by: DarkAegix

What's the similarity between neutron blasters, a MWD, an armour rep and heavy cap booster?
Extremely high powergrid requirements.
You end up ditching or lessening the value of a bonus, either by dropping to electron blasters or not fitting a rep.



I know compared to Minmatar, fitting Gallente ships isnt as effektive.
CCP should take a look at it. Shieldbuffer fitting gallente ships tells you all you need to know about the status of their balance.

Buffer tanks are much seen in PVP so shield buffer tanking ships have a big advantage over armor buffer setups... speed!

So gallente lose even on that. Too many minus points if you ask me.
Agility and maybe a speed boost was suggested and it sounds better then a gallente only webbing boost to me.



Summary as I see it:
- Gallente need a blaster boost
- more agility and maybe speed or more speed and no agility boost
- Ships need a overhaul to meet pvp combat requirements as the current blaster mechanisms make them hard to apply as they are.
- X <-- what ever that is to fix it without needing to apply the above (dont nerf anything)




Dizeezer Velar
Caldari
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
Posted - 2011.05.27 16:08:00 - [245]
 

Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
Blasters are the best platform for what I do, which is empire wardeccing. Most fights start within 10-15km at a gate or even closer at a station.

Blasters do perform fantastic at this range and though I have Amarr, Minmitar and Gallente BS at lvl 5, I find myself choosing a Gallente BS 7 times out of ten if I am solo. The only thing I'll choose over a Vindicator is a Bhaalghorn.
You DO realize that it's fairly unanimously agreed that the vindicator is exactly what a blaster ship SHOULD be, and that pretty much everyone thinks it does its job well yeh?


You seem angry. Navy Megathron is also great. Just destroyed a brutix, hurricane, drake 3v1 a little while ago with it.















Dizeezer Velar
Caldari
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
Posted - 2011.05.27 16:13:00 - [246]
 

All this theorycrafting. To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be.

You're forgetting some obvious points, tracking is usually a non issue in bs vs bs fights, and gallente have always sucked in fleet fights. Fly them where they shine, in solo or small gang pvp. If not, well then of course they suck.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.27 16:46:00 - [247]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 27/05/2011 20:40:47
Originally by: Rushnik
Originally by: The Djego


What I really want to see is a highly competitive blaster pvp in this scenarios that makes the trade off in the ability to be effective at range or versatility for raw power and being a lethal opponent in a point blank stand off fight against a huge variety of possible targets.


Lets say the blasters >= medium get a little more tracking and damage boost; That would make them more effektive in close range. But the whole point is that blasters are supposed to be closerange only. Making their T2 ammo's attributes more like barrage is a nice option but shouldnt be the fix.


Actually no, as written down in my contribution to the other thread I linked explains that one of the key issue is effective damage projection at point blank ranges. This unfortunately isn't archive able with a bit more tracking if you can't archive range and transversal control at point blank.

I actually don't want more range, rather the oposite, to reflect the gained potential the ships would have for actual close range pvp.

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
All this theorycrafting. To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be.

You're forgetting some obvious points, tracking is usually a non issue in bs vs bs fights, and gallente have always sucked in fleet fights. Fly them where they shine, in solo or small gang pvp. If not, well then of course they suck.


High sec wars are highly controllable scenarios(alt scouts, alt logis, fighting at undocks with enough buffer to re dock if desired etc.) if you fly them outside of this you might see a lot more issues with them.

I actually want to fly them where they shine(in solo/small gang pvp), like in the 3 years before QR, but considering the nature of the beast outside of empire, they are not really a desirable solution for the job as we speak.

DarkJacena
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:26:00 - [248]
 

I'm in the opinion that the ships that wield blasters (and possibly their bonuses) that need a boost moreso. Especially the Rokh, for being a Tier 3 ship (and it's cost) it's really quite lackluster, even for it's niche, People still joke about it being PvP-worthy, and for many good reasons.

Other gunnery ships don't get nearly as bad a risk/reward factor as blaster ships, I think everyone can agree on that.

-Jace

S0ylent Green
Posted - 2011.05.27 18:34:00 - [249]
 

...people would find something else to whine about

but really? first post got it right, if they were "fixed" they'd not OP, they'd be just right ;)

Rushnik
Minmatar
Anhalter's Minions
Posted - 2011.05.27 19:09:00 - [250]
 

Originally by: The Djego

Actually no, as written down in my contribution to the other thread I linked explains that one of the key issue is effective damage projection at point blank ranges. This unfortunately isn't archive able with a bit more tracking if you can't archive range and transversal control at point blank.

I actually don't want more range, rather the oposite, to reflect the gained potential the ships would have for actual close range pvp.



Controling means webifiers right? Giving the gallente ships a agility boost would result in a fight against another bs in a sharper orbit that makes the gallente ship harder to hit. I could be wrong...
There's also the problem when the opponent flys a webifier fit too... which a webifier boost on the ship would help.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.05.27 20:31:00 - [251]
 

Originally by: Rushnik
Originally by: The Djego

Actually no, as written down in my contribution to the other thread I linked explains that one of the key issue is effective damage projection at point blank ranges. This unfortunately isn't archive able with a bit more tracking if you can't archive range and transversal control at point blank.

I actually don't want more range, rather the oposite, to reflect the gained potential the ships would have for actual close range pvp.



Controling means webifiers right?


Yes.

Originally by: Rushnik

Giving the gallente ships a agility boost would result in a fight against another bs in a sharper orbit that makes the gallente ship harder to hit. I could be wrong...


Well you can reduce incoming DPS in a 1o1 against a BS in if you orbit it also close, however you will wrack your own DPS to and a lot of fights include more people than just 2 and this means most of the time more tackle. However every medium turret tracks 333% better compared to BS sized turrets and this will be what you get shot with and what you shot at in 9/10 engagements.

Originally by: Rushnik
There's also the problem when the opponent flys a webifier fit too... which a webifier boost on the ship would help.


Yes. One of the major points of the design is that it makes outrunning the blaster ship within web range very hard. It even grants the blaster ship, even outtackelt 3vs1 web wise, at least the ability to keep his current target in range and keep the DPS up.

It is not necessary a improvement for bigger fights, however it reduces most of the issues QR created for blaster ships to a minimum within her old niche of solo/small gang pvp and gives the pilot the chance to decide between entering a peak DPS situation with the target or trying to max out transversal to help out his own tank.

Think of it like flying a nano ship, range/transversal control is everything and makes the difference between ships that perform very good at point blank and ships that enter sudden death range.

Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult
Posted - 2011.05.27 22:53:00 - [252]
 

The issue has at least been acknowledged by CCP:

Quote:
We don't have a schedule for this right now, because we generally don't schedule balance work very far in advance. That said, we're of course aware of the concerns players have about Gallente ships and it's a concern that we share. We discussed exactly this issue with the CSM last time they were over, both in terms of the specific issue of Gallente balance (the discussion ended up spending some time looking at the ability of blaster platforms to get into range, for example), and the wider issue of how and when we schedule balance stuff, and why we tend not to comment on balance issues ahead of time (broadly, that we don't want to have an official position on what's broken until we've taken the time to sit down and really look at the problem, and we don't tend to do that until we're actually working on it).


http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1508537&page=1#25

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.05.28 11:28:00 - [253]
 

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
All this theorycrafting. To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be.

You're forgetting some obvious points, tracking is usually a non issue in bs vs bs fights, and gallente have always sucked in fleet fights. Fly them where they shine, in solo or small gang pvp. If not, well then of course they suck.


You certainly forget to say that most probably you've killed those ships doing some DED mission for concord, the system you squat.

You want a /bravo for killing pve ships with some pvp setup in high sec? -give us a break.

Sebastian T'Soni
Posted - 2011.05.28 16:15:00 - [254]
 

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be.



Grow a pair of balls? So let me understand this, having balls means clicking 'approach', turning on your MWD and then pressing F1 once the target is in range? I.e., using blasters in the only way they can be used?

Those are some giant balls you've got. Now I see what I was doing wrong with my blaster boats. I was MWDing away from my opponents and opening fire at 30km with my Medium Electrons! Thank you so much for clearing that up and showing me the error of my ways. I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong. Now that you've pointed this out, I too believe that there's absolutely nothing wrong with blaster boats - you just need balls.

Rolling Eyes

Dizeezer Velar
Caldari
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
Posted - 2011.05.28 21:05:00 - [255]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
All this theorycrafting. To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be.

You're forgetting some obvious points, tracking is usually a non issue in bs vs bs fights, and gallente have always sucked in fleet fights. Fly them where they shine, in solo or small gang pvp. If not, well then of course they suck.


You certainly forget to say that most probably you've killed those ships doing some DED mission for concord, the system you squat.

You want a /bravo for killing pve ships with some pvp setup in high sec? -give us a break.


Nope, it was an empire war. Nice assumption.

Dizeezer Velar
Caldari
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
Posted - 2011.05.28 21:08:00 - [256]
 

Originally by: Sebastian T'Soni
Originally by: Dizeezer Velar
To be honest, if you people flew the damn things once and awhile and grew a pair of balls, you would be surprised with how good blasters can be.



Grow a pair of balls? So let me understand this, having balls means clicking 'approach', turning on your MWD and then pressing F1 once the target is in range? I.e., using blasters in the only way they can be used?

Those are some giant balls you've got. Now I see what I was doing wrong with my blaster boats. I was MWDing away from my opponents and opening fire at 30km with my Medium Electrons! Thank you so much for clearing that up and showing me the error of my ways. I couldn't understand what I was doing wrong. Now that you've pointed this out, I too believe that there's absolutely nothing wrong with blaster boats - you just need balls.

Rolling Eyes


Your problem might be not so much a lack of tactics, but poor skills. If you're whinging, you must be doing something wrong.

Cambarus
Malicious Destruction
War Against the Manifest
Posted - 2011.05.28 21:53:00 - [257]
 

Originally by: Dizeezer Velar

Your problem might be not so much a lack of tactics, but poor skills. If you're whinging, you must be doing something wrong.
You mean like flying a blaster ship yeh?

Seriously though, you can't really argue that blaster ships are fine based on the vindicator, because the vindi is what most blaster boats SHOULD be; actual facemelting DPS at point blank range, with the ability to actually KEEP stuff there.

Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.05.28 22:29:00 - [258]
 

Quote:
Well you can reduce incoming DPS in a 1o1 against a BS in if you orbit it also close, however you will wrack your own DPS to and a lot of fights include more people than just 2 and this means most of the time more tackle. However every medium turret tracks 333% better compared to BS sized turrets and this will be what you get shot with and what you shot at in 9/10 engagements.


worst quote ive ever seen. Once you are in more then 2x web, and is slower then the dominix, there is no way the dominix cant track your bc/bs. ESPECIALLY drakes and nano shield canes.

'cant track cruisers' arent even an argument. No BS class weapon can track cruisers that blasters cant track anyways.

DraconisAlpha
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.31 13:50:00 - [259]
 

Originally by: baltec1

Blasters are solo/small gang weapons which require experience, balls and madness. Beer may or may not help.


EVE Holy Bible!

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.05.31 14:01:00 - [260]
 

Originally by: Straight Edged
...'cant track cruisers' arent even an argument. No BS class weapon can track cruisers that blasters cant track anyways.


Autos can and hit hard, while when I fly my cane and 'm scrambled twice/webed twice my best survival chances are to orbit the Blaster BS at 1km.

On the other side I never try to orbit any autos BS at 1km, gess why.

DraconisAlpha
Gallente
Posted - 2011.05.31 14:26:00 - [261]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: Straight Edged
...'cant track cruisers' arent even an argument. No BS class weapon can track cruisers that blasters cant track anyways.


Autos can and hit hard, while when I fly my cane and 'm scrambled twice/webed twice my best survival chances are to orbit the Blaster BS at 1km.

On the other side I never try to orbit any autos BS at 1km, gess why.


I dont get why worst range guns are best to deal with at low range engagements. Well, I get it, just I dont get why CCP doesnt fix it.


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