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Thallus Tage
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:01:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: death klokk
Steps for success:

1. Get an education.
2. Get job with said education.
3. Buy GTC
4. Sell

rinse/repeat.

Everyday I come across a thread where someone asks or boasts about earning 80-100mil isk per hour. Now mind you, some people PVE for reasons other than trying to maximize their in-game wealth as fast as possible (IE: running lvl 5s with friends while having a good time on vent/ts, or being constructive by mining while watching your favorite tv program) and if you fall into that category of casual player, then you can move on to the next topic.
However, I've always wondered why people spend so much time grinding their way to capital ships, faction fitted ships..etc etc at a snail's pace. Not everyone agrees with what I will say, but most will agree that time=money. The thing about time is that its universal. Time spent in game could be time spent doing something more profitable IRL.

GTC's are currently priced at 35$ USD and selling for like 700mil each give or take 20mil. Any decent job will pay you that for an hour of work. 100mil isk an hour grinding L4s or plexing whatever effectively translates into 5$ an hour. That number gets even lower if your not blitzing said missions in a pimped out golem. I don't really know of anyone that would work 7hrs a day for 35$. Heck, current minimum wage laws in the US pay more than that. When I first started playing EvE a few years ago, I would skip out of work early so I could get home and play. That is, until i realized how I was lowering the value of my time. It amazes me how many people grind all night for a few hundred million and complain about how much of a chore or "like a 2nd job" it is to play.

So unless you grind isk because your RL income is driven from RMTs from game, or you're a child who can't work; Is your time really worth 5$ an hour? If it is, see step 1.

Once liberated from the 'boring' aspects of the game and the fear of losing your 20mil fit rifter, you'll find a new found love for the game.

flame on.

tl;dr: Buy GTCs, your time is worth more than 5$ an hour... i think.



Nice try CCP, nice try. /tips hat.

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:11:00 - [62]
 

yeah, it makes you think huh.

Jame Jarl Retief
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:20:00 - [63]
 

OP,

As a gamer, I find posts like this deeply disturbing. When a game feels "like a 2nd job", you QUIT that game! Any sane person would. You do NOT keep throwing money at it because your time is worth more than $5/hr. Try to remember that EVE is a GAME. It is meant to be FUN. This is your ENTERTAINMENT dollars! It's you and people like you paying developers for games that are grindy, unfun and in general feel like a 2nd job that are the reason for the downfall of gaming. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but it's how I feel about it.

The moment the game starts feeling like a 2nd job, I drop it like last week's garbage. And I strongly urge everyone else to do the same. It's the only way to bring quality entertainment back to gaming, instead of grindy games, by design, to make you pay more to actually have fun.



Morgan Polaris
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:23:00 - [64]
 

As someone with an education should know, if no one's grinding, you'd be lucky if selling PLEX even gets you a 100 mil.

anonstudbius
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:29:00 - [65]
 

i just let this in here because some ppl are a bit stupid also lol at OP

here is how you need to do this

you can send me isk for this tip LaughingLaughingLaughing

1 make a eve fan site
2 join ccp affiliation program
3 get money from ccp buy gtc pay sub

Christine Peeveepeeski
Rodents of Unusual Size
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:44:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Morgan Polaris
As someone with an education should know, if no one's grinding, you'd be lucky if selling PLEX even gets you a 100 mil.


I'm no student of economics but I am educated if that helps.

There will always be grinding because non pvpers (carebears?) outweigh the pvpers already and they do it because many prefer playing that way.

That said if there was no grinding and people only bought plex then it means very few are creating materials. Once reserves go then you'll quickly see many people earning ISK hand over fist without paying for plex because they'll shift to creating those materials and it'll be worth it time wise to do so. You know this I assume and so do a few others as its what's keeping the plex market where it is.

My thoughts were based purely on people who believe the only way to have fun in this game is pvp and pay for plex to fund it. My argument is that if that IS the only way to have fun then the only people having fun in this game are paying a big premium to do so. Everyone else is either grinding for hours to achieve enough ISK to compete or they have set themselves up already and can afford the losses. The former is just a waste and anyone with sense would be buying plex (thus my engineered situation comments). In the case of the latter then there are in reality so few that can do this (I suspect, no proof as yet) without putting hours in it's a meaningless statistic.

Dr Offensive
Posted - 2011.04.20 13:00:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Dr Offensive on 20/04/2011 13:21:25
Originally by: Drykor
I'm in a western europe country, work as an engineer and I don't earn nearly 35 dollars per hour. You have to realize that in most countries, even though you EARN less, you also PAY a lot less than in the US. So our wages are less but we don't pay lots of cash for health care, children going to school, etc etc.
This doesn't mean our general wealth level is different, but it does mean that your balance is quite off for us.

I still earn more money in my real job than I do in Eve (even though I live in high end w-space and probably earn more isk than most people), but it does make the difference a lot less. So in my case I'd rather just play the game. It will also greatly depend on the kind of grinding you do though. Ours is a team effort which makes it better. If I was stuck with level 4 missions in highsec, I would consider buying GTC's.

Then there's also the argument of 'it's a roleplaying game' for me, I like to have earned the stuff that I own ingame by ingame means, not just buying my way into it.


I agree with that, $35 is well above average in Scotland but everything is free -

School, University, Doctors, Hospitals, Prescriptions, Dentistry(well you pay a small contribution for that, maybe $15 for a checkup and a filling or something), Drug Rehabilitation, Alcohol(oh wait that last one was in a dream)

They say being unemployed is a career choice!

This is the price the English must pay to stop us moaning about everything and keep us happyVery Happy

Even then $35 P/H is not unreasonable for a GOOD degree from a GOOD uni.

Edited for quoting the wrong quoteEmbarassed

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.04.20 13:01:00 - [68]
 

Some people don't have the luxury to decide to put more than the monthly subsciption into the game.

This isn't always education only dependant. Other circumstances can can lead to not being able to put more than the subscription into the game, hence the only thing left to make ISK ingame is grind, trade, research, build etc.

Next to that the whole PLEX for ISK system is something which just shows again that there is a serious off balance. Those that have will always be favoured over those that haven't.

Like the saying goes. The devil always craps on the biggest pile.

hired goon
Posted - 2011.04.20 13:15:00 - [69]
 

Good, high quality, pragmatic & controversial post. Thanks OP.

However you miss one thing. Though the Eve grind is a lowly paid job, it is also a job in which you can work from home chillaxing with a beer and a smoke, while chatting to friends and watching a movie, very low responsibility, commitment and effort.

Fredfredbug4
Posted - 2011.04.20 15:18:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Fredfredbug4 on 20/04/2011 15:21:02
I agree with you completely. The problem though is inflation. Not in real life but in the game. If everyone starts getting money from time codes there will be a lot of of PLEX in the market. As a result the prices will drop.

If only a handful of people do this like they do now. It's fine, but if your encouraging the majority of the EVE playerbase to do this, the strategy backfires. THe more people doing this the less PLEX will cost.

Plus many people don't want to spend RL money on a game. Many people want to play casually.

Another thing, once you have trillions of dollars, the game becomes too easy. You will always be buying the best equipment and you don't have to worry about loosing money. It also takes the accomplishment of working in game to get a fancy ship out. You don't feel like you are accomplishing anything, another day another ship.

I will admit, for a short amount of time, my primary source of EVE income was time codes for a few months. After a while EVE started to get boring. There wasn't any challenge in doing anything. No challenge=no fun. Doing this only keeps you entertained for a few months. Earning cash through in game mechanics will keep you entertained for a long time.

Finally this really makes the game unbalanced. The game becomes too easy for people who choose to buy time codes and too hard for those that choose not to. Since one half of the community is making more money, merchants will raise their prices. Those that buy time codes will have less ISK making their strategy useless and those that don't will be making nothing. All this does in increase prices for everyone voiding the "yay I can buy everything" mentality.

Your idea looks great on paper, but in reality it doesn't do anything. The money you spent on time codes could be spent on cooler things than EVE.


Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2011.04.20 15:30:00 - [71]
 

ITT: rich ppl attempt to justify buying success with RL cash. Twisted Evil

iOSJake
Posted - 2011.04.20 16:06:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki
Of course if everyone did this the price of PLEX's would drop from oversupply.


This...
*takes sunglasses off*
...is the OP's desired effect.
*puts sunglasses back on*

Adrian Idaho
Posted - 2011.04.20 20:02:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Fredfredbug4
Edited by: Fredfredbug4 on 20/04/2011 15:21:02
The problem though is inflation. Not in real life but in the game. If everyone starts getting money from time codes there will be a lot of of PLEX in the market. As a result the prices will drop.

If I'd get 10 ISK everytime someone incorrectly uses the term "inflation", I could finance my PLEXes this way. Rolling Eyes

Also @the people that argue that "it's a game, you shouldn't pay RL money to buy the stuff you want": especially since it's a game, you shouldn't have to work in it if you don't enjoy it. And no, buying ISK through PLEX is not an insta-"I win"-button if anything, I guess it makes for some juicy killmails if not combined with actual skills.

Sig Sour
Posted - 2011.04.20 20:13:00 - [74]
 

What is sad is that at one point I was able to trump real world income (by what you are going on here) with FW plexes - when they were in their prime.

Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
Frontline Assembly Point
Posted - 2011.04.20 23:29:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Whitehound on 21/04/2011 00:55:47
Originally by: death klokk
Steps for success:

1. Get an education.
2. Get job with said education.
3. Buy GTC
4. Sell


It can be achieved in a more primitive way than with your thinking. Find some girl at CCP (if you're a man) and make her happy - and you know what I mean*). When she wants to thank you do you ask for free ISKs.

*) Yes, with your meat banana!!

Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.21 00:34:00 - [76]
 

Tell me what in Eve is really fun. Everything is work work work. We're Slaves.Jump Jump Grind grind, click click.

Now eft, thats fun.

Aeris Louise
Posted - 2011.04.21 00:57:00 - [77]
 

CCP alt spotted.

Herrring
Amarr
National Quality Breaker
Posted - 2011.04.21 01:05:00 - [78]
 

The point of this post is

1. Most people complain grinding for isk is boring and rather just go shoot stuff.

2. Since the point of playing a game is to have fun, it doesn't make sense to torture yourself with grinding if you have an alternative that is way more efficient.

OP is probably not saying you shouldn't grind if it is fun for you, but if you are torturing yourself to have fun for a while in your free time, it's probably better to buy a plex.

That is ofc, assuming you make more isk/hr in rl.

death klokk
Posted - 2011.04.21 02:03:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: death klokk on 21/04/2011 02:06:07
Edited by: death klokk on 21/04/2011 02:03:05
Originally by: Herrring
The point of this post is

1. Most people complain grinding for isk is boring and rather just go shoot stuff.

2. Since the point of playing a game is to have fun, it doesn't make sense to torture yourself with grinding if you have an alternative that is way more efficient.

OP is probably not saying you shouldn't grind if it is fun for you, but if you are torturing yourself to have fun for a while in your free time, it's probably better to buy a plex.

That is ofc, assuming you make more isk/hr in rl.


someone gets it. It's amazing how many nerves i hit with the original post.

A)Some say they enjoy the grind -> oh, the original post wasn't meant for you. Enjoy your grind

B)Some say its cheating -> fair enough, don't cheat.

C)Some say isk=win -> false, because then you're also saying isk=sense or skill. see battleclinic's 10's of thousands Billion+ isk LOLmails to validate my argument.

D)Some say its "a game" to be enjoyed not something to spend money on -> why do you think that? My time has value. If i have 10 free hours a week to play the game, I do not want to spend 8 of them doing something I don't enjoy so that maybe, MAYBE, i can get enjoyment out of the other 2. Afterall, its a game, I don't enjoy all the aspects of the game so why even bother with them?

E)Some say it lowers the "value" of items in game to someone personally -> Maybe to an extent, but that doesn't mean people will throw away their money regardless of how they got it. IF i found 20$ on the sidewalk, i'm not going to dispose of it in the nearest trash can because it has no value to me because "i didn't earn it". A loss paid for with cash still remains a loss to me for my money. I am more reluctant to lose actual dollars than i am to lose imaginary currency. I would rather lose 7Billion to corp theft than 350$ in a RL robbery.



The original post was really just a question of why people do the grind. If the answer was somewhere along the lines of "to fund another aspect of the game i enjoy more" then why even grind to begin with?

edit: thanks for all the replies, this gives a tiny amount of insight to how players feel about microtransactions.

Neoexecutor
Minmatar
Skynet Technologies
Posted - 2011.04.21 03:10:00 - [80]
 

Not very serious reply:
Some years from now people will figure out ways to actually make 700m+/hr in game grinding (some will claim they already do). RMT will evolve into a real job legalized by CCP. Any given time big % of people online will simply be people at work. These people will go flip burgers after work for fun.

Hieronimus Rex
Minmatar
Infinitus Sapientia
Hav0k.
Posted - 2011.04.21 06:30:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Morgan Polaris
As someone with an education should know, if no one's grinding, you'd be lucky if selling PLEX even gets you a 100 mil.


You should also know when making individual optimization decisions you take other peoples' behavior as given...this would include their behavior which impacts PLEX prices.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.21 08:54:00 - [82]
 

Eve used to be a game where you got ahead through your wits, and it was a great game because of that.

Now you can just throw RL money at the problem.


Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.21 09:00:00 - [83]
 

Face it. ALL the "balancing" and upgrades are only to enhance CCP's income. If it creates demand for Plex or if it creates the demand for extra characters, "That is the only true "upgrade". Every nerf creates an almost immediate need for plex to quickly rebalance. Every effort to fight lag is to promote large Plex consuming fleet fights.

After their Nerfs pulled me out of high sec,, I really dug the sanctums in null. They were nice after work through the week for quick logins so I could pvp on weekends. I really tried to enjoy this pvp fleet isk burning lifestyle and then they nerf sanctums. This finally convinced me that they don't want balance, they don't want PVP. They don't give a hoot about risk versus reward and I really Don't think they've ever shown much sign of really caring about making the game fun for players.

Its all about selling Plex and accounts and the RMT war is just eliminating competition. Eliminating Bots isn't about rmt, its about encouraging Plex sales instead of grinding. I could go on and on but Real life calls so I can buy a plex or another account:)

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2011.04.21 09:15:00 - [84]
 

I could but I won't, I play the game to play the game, not to buy my way to some endgame.


Spookyjay
Caldari
Animosity.
Posted - 2011.04.21 09:24:00 - [85]
 

I think it is perfectly reasonable to treat plex selling the same as any other hobby material. Some people buy petrol for their motorbike. Others Paints ect.
Eve runs on Isk and playtime not oil and petrol. The nice thing about eve is that IF you want and have nothing better to do you can have a hobby that pays for it self and requires nothing but your attention.


Adrian Idaho
Posted - 2011.04.21 10:04:00 - [86]
 

@all those that oppose selling PLEX for ISK but pay for their subscription with RL money: how do you justify continually paying RL money for a game? Or to put it in other words: how does paying for the subscription differ from selling a GTC/PLEX plus grinding 700m ISK (from which two PLEXes are bought)? The effect is the same, yet you despise the latter method, but not the former one.

Besides, everyone who sells one PLEX for ISK enables one person without a proper RL income to play EVE for one month, so how is that not a good cause? Wink

Netheranthem
Eve Engineering Finance
Eve Engineering
Posted - 2011.04.21 11:39:00 - [87]
 

Personally I play the game for the social interactions and the intellectual challenge. So I'm experiencing with the market while chatting with other people from my corp. Doesn't take too much time, and at some point you're happy to find 1B in your wallet.
Though if I ever come to need ISK, I just buy GTCs. Happened a few times already, and I don't regret it.

Demolishar
Posted - 2011.04.21 11:57:00 - [88]
 

OP makes a very, very good point.

Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
Posted - 2011.04.21 12:15:00 - [89]
 

I used to sell the odd GTC to boost the ol' wallet up but I've since stopped. Primarially due to having no money and secondly because it kind of felt like a cheat. Why bother playing the game when I can just apply real world money? Fair enough it can get you that shiney quicker but sometimes saving for what you want builds the anticipation more. For me at least.

The Slayer
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Posted - 2011.04.21 12:25:00 - [90]
 

Counterpoint : I get a nice feeling of :smug:ness knowing that I haven't spent any real money for my accounts for about a year now. I actually kind of enjoy the PVE, especially now that incursions are here. I don't need bags of ISK, and I don't feel like spending real money on my internet spaceships. Some people just like playing the game.


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