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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.21 19:03:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 21/04/2011 19:06:10
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Rolling Eyes
So you're claiming semi afk single boxed missions without blitzing are good isk. Belt ratting is far better isk than that after some chaining.

I've done both going for bounties ( for decent income you need to dual box and salvage ) and blitzing for LP ( very low ticks ), blitzing has been the most profitable though I dumped all my LP moved into manufacturing when the nerf was announced as it was predictable that the LP market was going to crash as it has started to.

I have 5 boxes. And it seemed to me like the LP stuff started coming down in value almost immediately after the dev blog about anoms.

Shivus Tao
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.04.21 21:26:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Unless you're making isk off LPs then baseline income from L4s is pretty poor, once you get into LPs it gets very competitive. Loot and salvage is also competitive and subject to disruption by other players.

That's probably because you were running lvl 4s for Minmatar back in the day. Sure, LP value is a scarcity thing. However, I honestly didn't get into running anoms much and continued doing lvl 4s like usual on alts because I can run those while doing other stuff, unlike anoms. Everyone went back to the way they had been doing things before.

The complaint is how CCP handled this. It hurt, almost entirely, the smaller/newer corps/alliances and was nothing more than a temporary boost for players in big/old corps/alliances. Because the older guys already had assets in place to take advantage of this, moreover, they also hold good space so they are still benefiting from this change. This accounts for a good chunk of the NC and the Goons. The smaller guys invested in assets based on the mechanics as they were only to get what amounted to a sucker punch with the nerf bat. That is the complaint.



This entirely. For me the change isn't bad at all. But I had the resources and skillpoints to move around and get into different areas to make isk depending on how the market winds blow. Newer players and small alliances aren't nearly so lucky and as I said previously, this change essentially says "gtfo of nulsec unless you're part of a massive power bloc and have the resources to actually hold good space."

justin666
Posted - 2011.04.21 21:42:00 - [123]
 

im going to make a very basic reply and i belive i can speak for a good majority of 0.0 pvpers

the amoms funded pvp

less amoms = ALOT more grind or moving out of null sec to high sec and overall = less pvp

csm can you please educate ccp please... srlsy because at the end of the day its not all about having a slightly better economy its about a game and the game is here for fun.. not to be a massive grind fest which this game is turning more and more into and this is just the tip of the ice berg because game is sooooo broken and we only play this game because there is nothing else like it in the world and ccp abuse this big time and most of us dont even see it

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.21 21:55:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Shivus Tao
This entirely. For me the change isn't bad at all. But I had the resources and skillpoints to move around and get into different areas to make isk depending on how the market winds blow. Newer players and small alliances aren't nearly so lucky and as I said previously, this change essentially says "gtfo of nulsec unless you're part of a massive power bloc and have the resources to actually hold good space."
Does it really though? I'd be interested how much newer players can make in a BC in the non sanctum / havens.

Personally started out my null sec life belt ratting in a Harbinger in NPC space. We had plenty of visitors who we'd trap in the pocket and kill whenever possible to encourage them not to come back or linger too long.

If I'd of had anoms available I'd have made more, but I never had problems replacing ships especially since I'd run those drone anoms that no one else wanted, collect the mins and build my own BCs... and when I got lucky and got a Hauler spawn I'd store those up to have enough to build my own BS.

Personally I think something has been lost due to players expecting their cash ticks that they then spend on goods imported from Jita.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.04.21 22:28:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past

Personally I think something has been lost due to players expecting their cash ticks that they then spend on goods imported from Jita.


I think you have a good point here. While I think the anom nerf was poorly handled, I think the raw imput of isk into the economy was a bad thing. I used to semi-afk rat on an alt in a -0.07 system and made 30m+ isk/hr while pvp'ing on my main. I didn't have to compete much for anoms, and when I did lose the occasional dominix, it was cheap to replace. Now I rat for 15m/hr or mission for 10m/hr + loot&LP.

I think the original dominion upgrades where poorly thought out and should have focused on improving space's industrious activities. Mining and building scales much better, allowing for greater system population. More people in a system, its easier for them to ship up and fight...

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.21 23:03:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/04/2011 23:07:05
Originally by: InnerDrive
Originally by: SkierX
I'm actively involved in TEST's new player programs. We get many new players who join and move to 0.0 with very few skillpoints. We instruct them to train into salvaging and destroyers and go around to anomalies to salvage for money while they train into battlecruisers. Before this change there was already a shortage in available wrecks to be had, but this has made it much worse. Not only are there less people running anoms and more competition for them it also is forcing new players to go farther and into more crowded systems in order to compete with each other to find wrecks.

I don't have raw numbers, but the amount of "I can't find anything to do" from new players has risen noticeably. New players are our lifeblood in TEST and this change makes it harder for us to keep them around until they can become self-sufficient in null.


THIS made me sad Sad, its exactly the kinda thing that CCP fails to see. And shoud most definatly be brought to their attention. If they want people to get out to 0.0 and get involved in real alliances they need to make it possible for new players to have stuff to do.. nerfing anoms very badly has made it so theres much less stuff for them to do.


Since we're opining on his post: TBQFH, I was killing 800K-1.8M triple BS spawns in 0.0 in a Vexor with 3.5M SP. He doesn't have to have this **** spoon fed to him.... just go ****ing do it.

-Liang

Ed: I should point out that the BC spawns were mother ****ing evil and I couldn't do those until I had maybe 5M SP and upgraded to a Myrm. I should also say that this was in Serpentis and Guristas space. Amusingly enough... right where TEST lives now.

Mibad
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.21 23:04:00 - [127]
 

60m/hr pre-nerf juicy battleships
12m/hr post-nerf crappy elite frigs and cruisers

Some regions have no sanctums and even some have little to no havens. There is "less good stuff" to go around and its usually taken by someone else or even camped by bad guys. I'm not interested in paying for a 2nd account (L4 Mission slave) so I can "fund" my character in null. Before I could spend 20mins and easily afford a Cruiser/AF and now I have to spend an hour to afford the same thing. I dont have tons of time to play so when you lose a ship it hurts a lot more.

People who live in good true sec regions don't feel the nerf as much compared to other regions with garbage true sec.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.21 23:18:00 - [128]
 

The anomaly nerf is exactly what was needed. It is doing EXACTLY what it was meant to do on two fronts. First and foremost, it is causing some destabilization in the power blocks. Alliances that were nothing but buffers and cannon fodder are moving back to high sec, telling those who they were paying rent to **** off and looking with greedy eyes at different space and you can already see on various forums the friction and fighting going on over Sanctums and Havens. Secondly it helps slow down the ISK facet that was just full blown rocketing into the game.

It is true new players are not making the 100+ million ISK an hour like before in every system in null sec. Players are having to put forth :effort: into finding other income to make up for the change. Those who are putting forth said effort, are still making very good ISK. Those who can't adapt and still expect unlimited ship funds and to be able to dine on non-stop ISK no matter what, have left for high sec where it is easier.

Bottom line is the money is there and the change has separated the ones with initiative from those who are lazy. All in all, a very good change to the game. This game needs more changes like these to create more conflict. After all, this is a game about blowing up internet spaceships, not everyone sitting around a camp fire singing Kum ba yah and trading kitchen recipes.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.21 23:21:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 21/04/2011 23:07:05
Originally by: InnerDrive
Originally by: SkierX
I'm actively involved in TEST's new player programs. We get many new players who join and move to 0.0 with very few skillpoints. We instruct them to train into salvaging and destroyers and go around to anomalies to salvage for money while they train into battlecruisers. Before this change there was already a shortage in available wrecks to be had, but this has made it much worse. Not only are there less people running anoms and more competition for them it also is forcing new players to go farther and into more crowded systems in order to compete with each other to find wrecks.

I don't have raw numbers, but the amount of "I can't find anything to do" from new players has risen noticeably. New players are our lifeblood in TEST and this change makes it harder for us to keep them around until they can become self-sufficient in null.


THIS made me sad Sad, its exactly the kinda thing that CCP fails to see. And shoud most definatly be brought to their attention. If they want people to get out to 0.0 and get involved in real alliances they need to make it possible for new players to have stuff to do.. nerfing anoms very badly has made it so theres much less stuff for them to do.


Since we're opining on his post: TBQFH, I was killing 800K-1.8M triple BS spawns in 0.0 in a Vexor with 3.5M SP. He doesn't have to have this **** spoon fed to him.... just go ****ing do it.

-Liang

Ed: I should point out that the BC spawns were mother ****ing evil and I couldn't do those until I had maybe 5M SP and upgraded to a Myrm. I should also say that this was in Serpentis and Guristas space. Amusingly enough... right where TEST lives now.


Careful there, if White Tree sees this post, which does not agree with the NC leadership, he will have a moderator delete it. Remember, new players should be able to go straight to null sec and be able to get in motherships in a couple months. Now you better take what you said back!

Viribus
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.04.21 23:58:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: Shivus Tao
The free market is incredibly resilient. When the profit of one LP item drops, people will shift to another. The constant hunger for faction ammo makes it possibly the most sustainable of all lp items but it too is subject to ups and downs. People will adapt to market changes, this is the core principle that ensures blitzing level 4's remains profitable.
Rolling Eyes

If there is more LP in circulation then the value of that LP is worth less.


And if there's more ISK in circulation, ISK will be worth less. Rat bounties are fixed and not adjusted for inflation, so anoms become less desirable the more they are run.

Wow it's almost as if EVE has a free market or something

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.22 08:37:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Viribus
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: Shivus Tao
The free market is incredibly resilient. When the profit of one LP item drops, people will shift to another. The constant hunger for faction ammo makes it possibly the most sustainable of all lp items but it too is subject to ups and downs. People will adapt to market changes, this is the core principle that ensures blitzing level 4's remains profitable.
Rolling Eyes

If there is more LP in circulation then the value of that LP is worth less.


And if there's more ISK in circulation, ISK will be worth less. Rat bounties are fixed and not adjusted for inflation, so anoms become less desirable the more they are run.

Wow it's almost as if EVE has a free market or something
So you're saying that hyper inflation is ok?

Despite the fact that there are some fixed costs / isk sinks which would become more and more meaningless.

I could say that since there will be less isk, then prices will be less so the anomaly changes will have no effect since the market will adjust to players having less isk so who can complain. But that would be me distorting the truth to match my agenda just like the CSM members who started this thread.

White Tree
Gallente
Broski Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.04.22 13:02:00 - [132]
 

A lot of items which come from the LP store such as Modules and Ammo are high risk items which are routinely destroyed in combat. or are to be used as a resource. The ISK is removed from the market and the demand is high so LP blitzing is relatively stable as an income source.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.22 13:13:00 - [133]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 22/04/2011 13:18:15
Originally by: White Tree
A lot of items which come from the LP store such as Modules and Ammo are high risk items which are routinely destroyed in combat. or are to be used as a resource. The ISK is removed from the market and the demand is high so LP blitzing is relatively stable as an income source.
This is completely untrue.

For any item an increase in supply will result in a decrease in price. As a very good example LP increased in value after large quantities of courier bots were banned and the amount of LP in circulation decreased.

I have to say I'm really very concerned that you cannot understand this, especially since the results are already showing up on the market.

Personally I expect LP items to continue to decrease in value for a while until players have stabilised other areas of income at which point they will recover noticeably but not to the levels they were before the anomaly nerf was announced.

Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.22 13:56:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
Edited by: Dodgy Past on 22/04/2011 13:18:15
Originally by: White Tree
A lot of items which come from the LP store such as Modules and Ammo are high risk items which are routinely destroyed in combat. or are to be used as a resource. The ISK is removed from the market and the demand is high so LP blitzing is relatively stable as an income source.
This is completely untrue.

For any item an increase in supply will result in a decrease in price. As a very good example LP increased in value after large quantities of courier bots were banned and the amount of LP in circulation decreased.

I have to say I'm really very concerned that you cannot understand this, especially since the results are already showing up on the market.

Personally I expect LP items to continue to decrease in value for a while until players have stabilised other areas of income at which point they will recover noticeably but not to the levels they were before the anomaly nerf was announced.


Buh? LP and ISK in the form of faction ammo isn't used and consequently removed from the market/game? wot? I'm very concerned you cannot understand this. Actually, I'm not, but it does make you look silly.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.22 14:16:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Ogogov
Buh? LP and ISK in the form of faction ammo isn't used and consequently removed from the market/game? wot? I'm very concerned you cannot understand this. Actually, I'm not, but it does make you look silly.
I didn't say it wasn't constantly used.

The amount being used is already being supplied so where exactly is all this extra ammo going to go? Demand doesn't scale with supply, unless the surplus causes the price to decrease ( lowering the value of the LP ) stimulating people to use it more often.

You do know that there aren't magical fairies buying stuff off the market?

Cyalume
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.22 14:35:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: CyALuME on 22/04/2011 14:35:48
The incentive to go out to null sec has gone. We've seen a recent influx of applicants who are bored of fighting for space that has to no real gain or profit for them.

How that effects the bigger alliances, I don't know. Probably not all that much as a lot of them have had years to develop fad wads of Isk that never really filters down through the Alliance.

Yet for a newer player venturing out to 0.0 who can't fly a fantastically fitted Tengu, I can imagine it must seem rather pointless. Especially (as already mentioned) how much easier and safer it is to do the same in Empire.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.22 15:38:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 22/04/2011 15:39:20
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Does it really though? I'd be interested how much newer players can make in a BC in the non sanctum / havens.

Personally started out my null sec life belt ratting in a Harbinger in NPC space. We had plenty of visitors who we'd trap in the pocket and kill whenever possible to encourage them not to come back or linger too long.

If I'd of had anoms available I'd have made more, but I never had problems replacing ships especially since I'd run those drone anoms that no one else wanted, collect the mins and build my own BCs... and when I got lucky and got a Hauler spawn I'd store those up to have enough to build my own BS.

Personally I think something has been lost due to players expecting their cash ticks that they then spend on goods imported from Jita.

Again, I wasn't talking about a fresh meat noobie showing up in null for the first time in their brand new hurricane, all wide eyed and bushy tailed. I was talking about experienced players who put pressure on the players holding good space. The players that Dev was having fuzzy dreams about invading more valuable space because of the change. Yeah, those players, corps, alliances. The up-and-coming. Those are the ones who ate the nerf bat with the anom change.

My complaint is how CCP handled this.

Viribus
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.04.22 17:15:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Viribus on 22/04/2011 17:15:52
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: Viribus
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: Shivus Tao
The free market is incredibly resilient. When the profit of one LP item drops, people will shift to another. The constant hunger for faction ammo makes it possibly the most sustainable of all lp items but it too is subject to ups and downs. People will adapt to market changes, this is the core principle that ensures blitzing level 4's remains profitable.
Rolling Eyes

If there is more LP in circulation then the value of that LP is worth less.


And if there's more ISK in circulation, ISK will be worth less. Rat bounties are fixed and not adjusted for inflation, so anoms become less desirable the more they are run.

Wow it's almost as if EVE has a free market or something
So you're saying that hyper inflation is ok?

Despite the fact that there are some fixed costs / isk sinks which would become more and more meaningless.

I could say that since there will be less isk, then prices will be less so the anomaly changes will have no effect since the market will adjust to players having less isk so who can complain. But that would be me distorting the truth to match my agenda just like the CSM members who started this thread.


If you'd stop with your paranoid "NOT MY NCSM" stuff for just one second you'd realize that no one in this thread, much less the CSM members, actually thinks there isn't any problem with the way anomalies currently work. Giving out a straight cash payment for shooting rats is idiotic and shortsighted on CCP's part, but instead of changing nullsec mechanics to halt inflation they just nerfed the **** out of them so people move to highsec instead. It was a lazy, rushed, and stupid decision, like so many of CCP's. Or do you actually believe that less risk should equate to greater reward?

Since you apparently get sexual gratification from whining about sov-holding players being somehow unfairly represented in the CSM (which is hilarious) I really don't think there's any getting through to you unless you can objectively see why CCP ****ed up (hint: you can't).

As an aside, and this goes to everyone who think they're goddamn Warren Buffet because they RMT'd 30b isk, sunk it into goods, and make money from trading: it's easy to look down your nose at those filthy nullsec plebians and go "well if you really want to make money you gotta run six charons around empire like I do", just as it's easy to forget the vast number of consumers and producers required to make such a venture possible, and how sensitive it is to competition.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.22 17:20:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Viribus
just as it's easy to forget the vast number of consumers and producers required to make such a venture possible, and how sensitive it is to competition.


Amusingly, this is exactly what he's trying to point out about LP conversion.

-Liang

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.22 17:51:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 22/04/2011 17:56:57
Originally by: Viribus
If you'd stop with your paranoid "NOT MY NCSM" stuff for just one second you'd realize that no one in this thread, much less the CSM members, actually thinks there isn't any problem with the way anomalies currently work. Giving out a straight cash payment for shooting rats is idiotic and shortsighted on CCP's part, but instead of changing nullsec mechanics to halt inflation they just nerfed the **** out of them so people move to highsec instead. It was a lazy, rushed, and stupid decision, like so many of CCP's. Or do you actually believe that less risk should equate to greater reward?
How about the NCSM starts demonstrating that's it's non partisan rather that stating at the beginning of the thread that the only acceptable point of view is agreeing with them that it was a bad idea. I'm hardly being paranoid when it's that obvious.

Quote:
Since you apparently get sexual gratification from whining about sov-holding players being somehow unfairly represented in the CSM (which is hilarious) I really don't think there's any getting through to you unless you can objectively see why CCP ****ed up (hint: you can't).
Actually I don't think they're unfairly represented, the majority of players that didn't vote created this issue, what I do think is it's unfortunate how blinkered they're making themselves appear in that they seem willing to let the economy burn to get the anoms put back in a hideously broken state.

Actually most of my time in this thread has been arguing with members of Test who're being completely idiotic by claiming mission rewards are magically immune to market forces. I notice that you've decided to give up on that least even if you refuse to acknowledge I was correct.
Quote:
As an aside, and this goes to everyone who think they're goddamn Warren Buffet because they RMT'd 30b isk, sunk it into goods, and make money from trading: it's easy to look down your nose at those filthy nullsec plebians and go "well if you really want to make money you gotta run six charons around empire like I do", just as it's easy to forget the vast number of consumers and producers required to make such a venture possible, and how sensitive it is to competition.
Loose translation = we're too lazy to use our brains, we can only cope with hitting scan and warping to the closest anomaly and we think we deserve a super carrier if we do this for a couple of months.

It's really sad to see how many people want to see this great game dumbed down, what next, demand a 50m SP bonus every year as well?

Viribus
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.04.22 18:01:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Viribus
just as it's easy to forget the vast number of consumers and producers required to make such a venture possible, and how sensitive it is to competition.


Amusingly, this is exactly what he's trying to point out about LP conversion.

-Liang


LP conversion isn't that sensitive, at least I haven't noticed much of a change. While competition in trading/market manipulation can put you out of business, competition for LP items digs into your profit by very little, considering the vast array of items you can churn out of the LP store and the relatively elastic demand of LP goods.

Even when you have lots of competition, churning out the worst isk/LP items, you still make more money than anoms. A Tengu running sanctums all day (which is currently impossible), makes 45-55m/hr. That same Tengu efficiently blitzing L4s can pull down 100m/hr quite easily churning out faction ammo (inb4 pubbies going "WELL I SLOWBOAT THROUGH MISSIONS IN A GOLEM AND I ONLY MAKE 20M AN HOUR"). One of my corpmates went up to highsec in a tengu for a week, blitzed L4s for a couple hours every day, and came back to Fountain with 5B from CN Invulns and Torps. In that same time I scanned down four constellations every day and triple-boxed every available plex, and am sitting on less than a billion in loot. Now you tell me that isn't completely broken.

Viribus
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.04.22 18:14:00 - [142]
 

Edited by: Viribus on 22/04/2011 18:14:59
Originally by: Dodgy Past
If Actually I don't think they're unfairly represented, the majority of players that didn't vote created this issue, what I do think is it's unfortunate how blinkered they're making themselves appear in that they seem willing to let the economy burn to get the anoms put back in a hideously broken state.


If you think this is anyone's goal you are laughably deluded.

Quote:
Actually most of my time in this thread has been arguing with members of Test who're being completely idiotic by claiming mission rewards are magically immune to market forces. I notice that you've decided to give up on that least even if you refuse to acknowledge I was correct.


No one's claiming they're immune, they are as affected by LP inflation as anoms are by ISK inflation.

Quote:
Loose translation = we're too lazy to use our brains, we can only cope with hitting scan and warping to the closest anomaly and we think we deserve a super carrier if we do this for a couple of months.

It's really sad to see how many people want to see this great game dumbed down, what next, demand a 50m SP bonus every year as well?


Congrats, you continue to miss my point. If everyone "used their brains" and did highsec trading—as only an acutely scientific and brilliant mind can operate spreadsheets and click "autopilot" on an obelisk—trading would become vastly less profitable. Every sort of business that isn't a skinner box of "pres butan, receive ISK/LP/ore" is not only relies on those skinner boxes to exist but would utterly collapse if a significant number of people started in on trading/hauling/manufacturing etc.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.22 20:40:00 - [143]
 

First thanks for toning it down back into civility.
Originally by: Viribus
Edited by: Viribus on 22/04/2011 18:14:59
Originally by: Dodgy Past
If Actually I don't think they're unfairly represented, the majority of players that didn't vote created this issue, what I do think is it's unfortunate how blinkered they're making themselves appear in that they seem willing to let the economy burn to get the anoms put back in a hideously broken state.


If you think this is anyone's goal you are laughably deluded.
Quote:

No one's claiming they're immune, they are as affected by LP inflation as anoms are by ISK inflation.
LP inflation balances out mission running, if to many people do it then the rewards are lowered. ISK inflation puts everyone in a hamster wheel where they have to keep chasing just to stay in the same place, except for those that are benefiting from whatever is broken and causing the inflation.
Quote:
Congrats, you continue to miss my point. If everyone "used their brains" and did highsec trading—as only an acutely scientific and brilliant mind can operate spreadsheets and click "autopilot" on an obelisk—trading would become vastly less profitable. Every sort of business that isn't a skinner box of "pres butan, receive ISK/LP/ore" is not only relies on those skinner boxes to exist but would utterly collapse if a significant number of people started in on trading/hauling/manufacturing etc.
To an extent this just makes me want to say go back to WoW I'm afraid. Just as cross training is important incase your favourite ships get nerfed being flexible in the way you make isk is important. Those who diversify and don't put all their eggs in one basket should expect to reap the rewards.

Viribus
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.04.22 21:42:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
LP inflation balances out mission running, if to many people do it then the rewards are lowered. ISK inflation puts everyone in a hamster wheel where they have to keep chasing just to stay in the same place, except for those that are benefiting from whatever is broken and causing the inflation.


Those causing the inflation buy ships and modules, and are as hurt by inflation as anyone else. A manufacturer, for example, would be relatively unaffected, as their variable costs would increase alongside the prices of their goods, as both are affected by inflation.

Either way no-one's arguing that anom upgrades were a bad idea and too much of an ISK faucet, the problem is CCP's "addressing" the issue fails to do so threefold:

1. Anom rewards are still in the form of ISK bounties, which was the problem to begin with. Converting some of the rewards to, say, concord LP, having rewards be primarily drop-based, or increasing the currently-awful rate of complex spawning would help reduce inflation while keeping nullsec profitable.

2. Risk becomes even more inversely proportionate to reward, which is the opposite of what it should be, obviously. No matter how you slice it, especially for the casual, one-account player that logs in a few hours a week to rat up some Drakes or something, highsec is better, more consistent, and safer money than nullsec, even taking into account LP depreciation.

3. While the stated goal of the change was to make nullsec less homogenous, with the intended effect of having players in low-value nullsec fight for high-value nullsec, all of nullsec is currently so valueless (as far as ratting goes) that instead of people moving from one nullsec region to another, they're just moving from nullsec to highsec.

It's this complete and utter failure of CCP Greyscale to understand how this terrible game even works that ****es people off the most, and they fact that he didn't think to go to the CSM for better ideas.

Quote:
To an extent this just makes me want to say go back to WoW I'm afraid. Just as cross training is important incase your favourite ships get nerfed being flexible in the way you make isk is important. Those who diversify and don't put all their eggs in one basket should expect to reap the rewards.


Preaching to the choir, between my alts I've done just about anything that can be done to make money and more-or-less had success at it, after a year of highsec trading I got burnt out having to update orders twice a day and wanted to relax and make money independent of time obligations for school and work.

Regardless none of that applies to this argument because the point still stands that nullsec is crap money for high risk while highsec is good money for low risk.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.23 08:34:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 23/04/2011 08:35:08
Where was all this "ISK based bounties are wrong" during the twelve months when it was being milked?
Where was it in the epic whine threads in the 4 weeks from nerf-announcement to implementation?

Hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but blaming CCP for something the null crowd lined up to be complicit in is beyond ridiculous.
Originally by: Viribus
....

Risk in null is only higher than elsewhere in the weeks it takes to get jammers and bridges online, after that you are only safer if you remain docked.

If it was the great wild west that some wants to believe then the number of deaths would be significantly higher than they are.
With no defensive patrols needed, no logistics operations needed and nothing for roams to do other than dock locals up risk is limited to a few hours a week when blobs collide over one timer or another.

Florestan Bronstein
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.04.25 08:56:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 25/04/2011 09:03:04
Originally by: SkierX
I'm actively involved in TEST's new player programs. We get many new players who join and move to 0.0 with very few skillpoints. We instruct them to train into salvaging and destroyers and go around to anomalies to salvage for money while they train into battlecruisers. Before this change there was already a shortage in available wrecks to be had, but this has made it much worse. Not only are there less people running anoms and more competition for them it also is forcing new players to go farther and into more crowded systems in order to compete with each other to find wrecks.

I don't have raw numbers, but the amount of "I can't find anything to do" from new players has risen noticeably. New players are our lifeblood in TEST and this change makes it harder for us to keep them around until they can become self-sufficient in null.

In my experience there is still more than enough salvage - however, new players are generally too lazy to bookmark CAs before they have been completed for salvaging and ratters are too lazy to drop off bookmarks of completed CAs at some pick-up point for salvagers.

I never had trouble finding free Sanctums in Fountain even after the change - but my ratting times are usually between 8 - 16 EVE time, I can imagine that competition during EU/US prime has become pretty tough (but then people should be in pvp fleets during primetime anyways).

My impression is that many people either love running Havens or have no clue about the range of their on-board scanner - sanctums at a little more remote locations within the solar system would almost always be empty, even if many Havens were occupied.

Havens & Sanctums have similar ISK/h for me if I do them in sub-capital ships. Running Havens in a carrier is painful.

Level 4 payouts vary wildly based on LP conversion rates and skills - therefore no easy comparison is possible.
Compare one mission runner with good Social skills doing SoE level4s in Gicodel with another mission runner who has bad Social skills and is running missions for CN in Motsu and you will see a very noticeable difference in income - even though both are doing high-sec lvl4s for fairly mainstream factions and don't rely on exotic means of LP conversion (building stuff from BPCs, ...).

edit: As I have said elsewhere my preferred solution to curb ISK inflow from CAs wold have been to replace some Sanctums/Havens with Drone Hordes with a chance that is based on truesec.
Would have nerfed ISK influx from bad truesec & would certainly have led to many complaints but players could have adapted to the new system and system upgrades would have retained their value.

MeBiatch
Posted - 2011.04.25 09:30:00 - [147]
 

Edited by: MeBiatch on 25/04/2011 11:09:42
i have not felt the so called burn of the nerf yet as i live in npc space atm... but i used to live in scalding pass and ran sanctums in a thanny all the time... at that point i was pulling in the full amount of a ring sanctum in 20 min and would finish a station one in about 35 min so i was pulling in around 20 mill every 20 min... not bad at all

though now i am in a -0.4 system belt ratting in a gila and am pulling in 13-18 million every 20 min... which is pretty good for belt ratting...

now as i recall there are forsaken hubs which give you a bunch of bs's and its worth ruffly around 15-20 mill and can be done in under 20 min...

I think if ccp added more highend mid range annoms like forsaken hubs to low end 0.0 systems (-0.1 to -0.5) i think this would help offset the isk loss...
as imo i tink ccp added annoms to the systems to make it so more people can rat in a single system... so having the isk income of belt ratting in the system be the same as the annom ratting is a good thing...

Viribus
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.04.25 09:48:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Risk in null is only higher than elsewhere in the weeks it takes to get jammers and bridges online, after that you are only safer if you remain docked.

If it was the great wild west that some wants to believe then the number of deaths would be significantly higher than they are.
With no defensive patrols needed, no logistics operations needed and nothing for roams to do other than dock locals up risk is limited to a few hours a week when blobs collide over one timer or another.



Wow you really are clueless. Do you really expect a huge BC gang that lights up intel channels to have PVP handed to them? Are people gonna hop in their ratting tengus and do honoureable spacebattle?

Bolded the parts that are wrong, hth

Serpentine Logic
Posted - 2011.04.25 10:15:00 - [149]
 

I was initially worried about the changes, but even with increased competition for the havens (there are no sanctums nearby) I can still make 35-40M per hour by chaining the forsaken/forlorn hubs. That's respectable enough that I don't have to resort to missioning to get by.

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.04.26 11:58:00 - [150]
 

So much dumb in this thread.

1) NPCing in a carrier in cyno-jammed 0.0 is risk free unless you are an idiot or **** up. Your align time is considerably quicker than the minimum "jump in, drop probes, get result, warp to it" time. Even if that werent' the case, if the enemy has a big enough gang to break your tank (+your friends also ratting in system remote reps) then you should have heard about it 5 jumps earlier on intel channels.

2) "ISK inflation works the same as LP inflation" - No it does not! With LP inflation, all those causing inflation (eg mission runners) suffer from it, and therefore are disincentivised to Mission ***** for that faction further due to the decrease in value of the LPs. This causes balance. With ISK inflation on the otherhand, the whole of Eve suffers for the sins of only the sanctum runners - the incentives dont change, doing anything other than sanctums just gets even more worthless.


3) The guy saying to switch sanctum rewards to drops, good idea, but they cant be aimed at being comparable to before. 100m ISK/hr with one account and almost no risk is not healthy for the economy.



That all said, as a compromise I'd be happy to have the same level of sanctums back again but no local in 0.0. That would balance the risk-reward a little more.


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