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Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.04.18 23:54:00 - [1]
 

In May, we'll be discussing the Eve NPE. CCP has made great strides in improving the overall NPE. We would like to gather feedback from current players on ways to improve the NPE and ideas to increase player retention (by giving a good NPE)

Post your thoughts feedback or experiences here in this thread

Mr DurkaDur
Posted - 2011.04.19 00:03:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Mr DurkaDur on 24/04/2011 19:22:32
New better looking noob ships, please! Appearances are like 86.39%

First! Cool

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.04.19 00:29:00 - [3]
 

It would be nice if tools like EVEMon and EFT was available within the game itself. At the moment any skill planning longer than 24h has to be done out of game. You can't fit up a ship and get a list of what skills you need to be able to undock it.

The certificates is a step in the right direction but it would be even better if you could click on a certificate and have all the relevant skills added to the list (just like EVEMon).

Make Aura like the old holographic Quafe girl. Wink

Maybe swap the shuttle and noobship models around, imagine starting this game in a Minmatar shuttle with turrets. Shocked

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.19 00:41:00 - [4]
 

No matter what the NPE ends up being, it must represent EvE's longterm playability. Which unfortunately also means any NPE is going to suck and be rather dis-associative to most players.

However, a complete UI overhaul with an emphasis on dumping the current window based system would go a long way to helping new (and old) players keep logging in. Adjustable and customizable is great, but the default UI could still suck a lot less.

The other thing is the newbie ships, they don't need to be great ships related to the rest of EvE's ships, but they don't have to be 'shuttles with guns' either. Gives them more slots and a second bonus, even if it isnt a combat bonus.

Defund Obamacare...er wrong forum.

Make the tutorial less about reading or listening to a bored woman reading and more about actually doing stuff. Information is great, but cramming it into a single tutorial will turn off most players. Let the students chose which courses they study at the time they want to do it.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.19 09:41:00 - [5]
 

I really would not want simulators or anything but what about missions where they had a decent set of skills and the associated ship to do some missions with? So they get an idea of things to come? A few missions with a frigate, then some with a cruiser, then battle cruiser, battleship and dare I say... maybe a capital at the end?

Get them excited about what else is in the game besides noob ship crap. Also don't forget about some missions that has the industrial stuff in it. The missions should gear them to full fill the role the ship should play, not some, "Go here and blow these *******s out of the water." all the time. It should be more like, "Go here with this Arazu and tackle these guys why our Megathrons get on them to destroy their face."

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.19 09:52:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
It would be nice if tools like EVEMon and EFT was available within the game itself. At the moment any skill planning longer than 24h has to be done out of game. You can't fit up a ship and get a list of what skills you need to be able to undock it.

The certificates is a step in the right direction but it would be even better if you could click on a certificate and have all the relevant skills added to the list (just like EVEMon).



Yes, this would be excellent. These tools are indispensable, and they should be emulated and put in the client itself.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.19 10:48:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
In May, we'll be discussing the Eve NPE. CCP has made great strides in improving the overall NPE. We would like to gather feedback from current players on ways to improve the NPE and ideas to increase player retention (by giving a good NPE)

Post your thoughts feedback or experiences here in this thread



New players are treated in a bad way with uber noob term. Large corporations do not want to recruit noobs, as they lack competence and these corps lack time to train them. Another stigma associated with new account is the 'spy' suspicion. New players have bad experience when they feel not wanted or not able to play with real guys.

In my opinion, new players tutorial missions can be totally surpassed by recruit academy, a player NPC run organization, a training centre and a task force, with an aim to provide daily combat experience to the pilots. In these corporation combat is a standard, and courage is the real value. NPC give out real mission briefings, while community FCs can lead up to 30 men groups through low sec, WH reconnaissance 0.0 sec border attacks.

The difference from faction warfare, that recruit academy focuses on tactical training of direct beginners, people who are in noob corp and have less than 3 month play time. The corporation has ship fittings sets, ship stocks that satisfy the recruit combat programme needs, also recruits get their ISK payout for accomplishments in their missions, funded by megacorporations as anti sansha anti jove multi empire initiative. Academy training is focused around tech 1 frigate and cruiser combat, wing coordination and facing opposing force.

NPC ruleset, missions, training plans, Player cadets, community volunteer fleet commanders and opposing force. Where opposing force may be seasoned players in larger ships engaging in staged environments and micro tournaments.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:15:00 - [8]
 

New players in my experience leave the game largely due to wardecs.

New player hears about game from say ebaumsworld which is where autistics sharks is from. They are out in 0.0. Then new person joins the game and they are in say jita. They then undock to go out to the closest highsec system. They die and they quit. Happens over and over and over.

Add in the fact that the wardec system is awful.

Illectroculus Defined
No Bull Ships

Posted - 2011.04.19 22:06:00 - [9]
 

Noob Ships - they're supposed to be rubbish, but I think they coud get some tweaks.

1) The Ibis is a caldari ship - give is a missile hardpoint or two (it can still keep railgun bonuses), as a caldari noob I started with guns and trained all the way into a Rokh before I realliy realised that caldari missile boats were more appropriate.
2) The Impairor cap bonus is completely useless since it doesn't have enough power grid to fit lasers that would make it cap unstable. Give it a laser damage bonus.

The noob missions are great, but there are rough edges that might confuse players:
One mission has you salvaging a civilian datacore which ends up doing nothing. There are a whole bunch of useless trinkets awarded through the noob mission system.

In one of the minmatar training systems there's an anomaly that spawns 'A Demonstration' this is related to the Minmatar level 4 epic arc. Any noob warping into this will probably die quickly, perhaps the spawning of this anomaly could be fixed so that noobs aren't going to accidently stumble into it when they're running the exploration training missions.

I think there needs to be a special mission in the combat training arc which covers the effects of different ammo & drone types, show them how to switch ammo to get different ranges and damage types. I understand this is a bit more complicated but you'd be amazed how many pilots have no clue about the different ammo types.

Bookmarks should appear on the overview: in particular, mission bookmarks. All that right clicking through multiple menus to get somewhere is very frustating for new pilots.

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.04.19 22:31:00 - [10]
 

One of the big problems with the NPE is the vast gulf between new players and PvP vets with 50 million SP. There is currently no way a new player can realistically, either ship wise or financially, engage in PvP. I am busy planning a trial account tournament for sometime in June to provide a level playing field, at least on the isk and SP levels. Eve needs something like arenas or battlegrounds that are limited to players in the trial account period, where pvp can be carried out relatively risk free.

Opertone
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.19 23:03:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Bomberlocks
One of the big problems with the NPE is the vast gulf between new players and PvP vets with 50 million SP. There is currently no way a new player can realistically, either ship wise or financially, engage in PvP. I am busy planning a trial account tournament for sometime in June to provide a level playing field, at least on the isk and SP levels. Eve needs something like arenas or battlegrounds that are limited to players in the trial account period, where pvp can be carried out relatively risk free.


agreed, or perhaps an academy... or even virtual reality simulator... instantly fit, instantly in action, may place bets or watch fights in station

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.04.19 23:22:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 19/04/2011 23:26:00
New players who wish to mission are not adequately guided to resources to enable them to find missions. CCP should either buy or just ask Chribba for permission to link eve-agents.com ingame, or something like it.

Also, the tutorial missions are boring as hell.


edit to add: reasons new players leave.

-it's boring

-they don't know what to do (new tutorials address this a bit, but only go halfway. Better documentation in game, or links to out of game documentation such as eve-wiki, eve-agents and dotlan are needed)

-mysterious and unexplained game mechanics, leading to them being greifed or just not being able to figure out why their tutorial mission won't complete.


So on the one hand, better documentation available to new players is needed. They shouldn't have to find eve-agents, dotlan, isk-guide, etc on their own. Either make the existing player-created documentation available, or put that documentation in-game and accessible.

On the other hand, make being a new player less of a grind. So much of a terrible grind. And largely asocial, too. It's just awful.

Danghor
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.19 23:26:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Danghor on 19/04/2011 23:25:50
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
It would be nice if tools like EVEMon and EFT was available within the game itself. At the moment any skill planning longer than 24h has to be done out of game. You can't fit up a ship and get a list of what skills you need to be able to undock it.


I've thought about it 100 times but never said it. That's probably why they implemented a in-game browser, to access important information that you can't find, or won't find easily inside the game.... With the captain's quarter that would be the time to implement a Eve Dotlan or Eve-Agents inside the game. Also once you do a mission, you could unlock more info on the mission, and that becomes a sort of eve-survival.org...

Alias 6322A
Posted - 2011.04.19 23:48:00 - [14]
 

Epic Arcs...note plurality.

Many new players need 'direction' early on. Once they grasp the sandbox nature, they are good to go. I propose you create career-like epic arcs. While this sounds a bit silly, particularly for something as simple as mining, remember that mining is actually categorized in Industry:

Industry (Mining, Production, Research)
Combat (PvE)
PvP / FW (Specialty Combat)
Trade (Hauling and Station Trade)
Exploration (Sites, WHs, Salvaging, Archaeology, Codebreaking)

Each of these should have a lvl 1 or 2 (or maybe both!) epic arcs, of a shorter scope than SoE, to guide new players along in their chosen career. Should they change their mind, as we all know, you can simply start training something else and leave it at that. These arcs *could* provide skill books, though I wouldn't recommend it, but more than likely some better than meta1 equipment. The arc missions would have a clear goal, but not a clear way of accomplishing it.

EX Industry Mission: Agent needs 20 of item B. Story for why...no blue print provided. The agent would inform the player how to find BP's on the market, maybe even inform them the difference between originals and copies. But it is up to the player to buy the needed materials (or mine them!) and create the item. While simple in structure, the player gains valuable skills and understanding of the career.

A sixth 'jack of all trades' career could be introduced in which a single arc has missions that cover the basics of all careers. Think of them as a 'final exam' in which a player will complete missions, mine in a basic mining frigate, produce goods, sell them for isk, buy other goods, and get a general understanding of all careers. Currently this ALREADY exists: but as separated careers. Keeps those in place, and have this sixth available. Since players no longer freak on 'what to use my bonus sp on', the need to focus in one area a certain way is also gone. Win Win for CCP - New players get to see more of the game and have a higher chance of 'getting hooked' on a career they like, CCP gets more player time when they spread their sp around on careers they won't be pursuing.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.04.20 00:19:00 - [15]
 

mission ONE, you should go through buying modules, fitting your noob ship, and then the very very 1st mission should wrap scramble and KILL THEM. they should get ganked and podded.

Then they should wake up in goo, fall out of the cloning machine and talk to aura. Who says something awesome like.

"welcome back pilot, did I mention your immortal"


Anna Lifera
6....
HAWK Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.20 04:47:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Anna Lifera on 20/04/2011 04:49:08
1. the reason new-player experience sucks is because of the vet's risk-aversion. they would never want to help them (in fact, they want them to stay in the dark for as long as possible) because to them, newbies were destined to a. pad their killboards b. satisfy their epeen and last but not least c. ragequit because they're a dime a dozen.
2. that's why ppl at one point or another heard the pvp suggestion, "check their employment history." expand that to: if it's a 1+ year old player, avoid like the plague--if he's less than a month old, hunt him down. this is what happens when risk-aversion goes unchecked--no one else suffers except the newbies, who r usually the only ones who r bold/naive enough to take risks, risks that they've been tricked into taking for no actual reward.
3. the only way the new-player experience is gonna be even remotely decent is if they were literally sheltered from the rest of eve, which is not gonna happen, due to vets exploiting alts for that purpose.

as long as vets look down upon newbies as nothing but expendable killmail fodder and treat them as such, new-player experience will be nothing but that. that's where the problem really is.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.04.20 05:43:00 - [17]
 

The NPE is missing something to teach aggression mechanics. That normally involves PVP, so a way to do it would be to make a mission with NPCs that cause flagging and have a dockable station in the mission location, for instance. Or better yet, make noobs test it on each other (yep, missions that send you to aggress other players or whatever).

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.20 10:05:00 - [18]
 

UI change to help improve the NPE: add an option to show the character skills window and the item/ship Prerequisites tab like a flowchart (like the certificates flowcharts / like evemon skill flowcharts) - it's hard to tell what the relationship between skills is and what your training path should be from looking at a flat list.

Let non-newbie-corp people join the newbie corp channels; some of us veterans would like to continue answering newbie questions even after moving on with our careers.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.20 15:42:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
Large corporations do not want to recruit noobs, as they lack competence and these corps lack time to train them. Another stigma associated with new account is the 'spy' suspicion. New players have bad experience when they feel not wanted or not able to play with real guys.


Quote:
New player hears about game from say ebaumsworld which is where autistics sharks is from. They are out in 0.0. Then new person joins the game and they are in say jita. They then undock to go out to the closest highsec system. They die and they quit. Happens over and over and over.


Quote:
The other thing is the newbie ships, they don't need to be great ships related to the rest of EvE's ships, but they don't have to be 'shuttles with guns' either. Gives them more slots and a second bonus, even if it isnt a combat bonus


Quote:
One of the big problems with the NPE is the vast gulf between new players and PvP vets with 50 million SP. There is currently no way a new player can realistically, either ship wise or financially, engage in PvP.


Quote:
-it's boring

-they don't know what to do (new tutorials address this a bit, but only go halfway. Better documentation in game, or links to out of game documentation such as eve-wiki, eve-agents and dotlan are needed)

-mysterious and unexplained game mechanics, leading to them being greifed or just not being able to figure out why their tutorial mission won't complete.


Quote:
1. the reason new-player experience sucks is because of the vet's risk-aversion. they would never want to help them (in fact, they want them to stay in the dark for as long as possible) because to them, newbies were destined to a. pad their killboards b. satisfy their epeen and last but not least c. ragequit because they're a dime a dozen.

2. that's why ppl at one point or another heard the pvp suggestion, "check their employment history." expand that to: if it's a 1+ year old player, avoid like the plague--if he's less than a month old, hunt him down. this is what happens when risk-aversion goes unchecked--no one else suffers except the newbies, who r usually the only ones who r bold/naive enough to take risks, risks that they've been tricked into taking for no actual reward.

3. the only way the new-player experience is gonna be even remotely decent is if they were literally sheltered from the rest of eve, which is not gonna happen, due to vets exploiting alts for that purpose.


Let me add Eve's progression system to all this -skills learning system has nothing related to what the guy accomplishes. He grinds he does boring stuff waiting until he's able to do other boring things before he can buy/use another ship and continue the boring stuff.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.04.20 21:40:00 - [20]
 

remove "wall of text" in tutorials & NPE missions.

information needs to be given out in small doses, often, rather than in one lump. Having access to the text as well in the journal/help screens is needed, but the game should be trying to start moving away from having large quantities of text as the primary infosource.

eg: mission intros should have a clickable mini-starmap, showing the route with system names & sec statuses.

tutorial also needs to keep better track of what steps have been completed, and advance immediately with a comment "that's right" (or whatever) instead of needing to click "next". Some parts leave a new player wondering "have I done what I need to do?" . Smaller doses will help this

break down the item attributes into sub-tabs or at least re-order them to remove clutter. New people looking at a gun want to know damage, optimal, falloff, tracking and don't much care about other stuff.



note: I haven't done the new Amarrian NPE missions on Duality yet.

Time Funnel
Posted - 2011.04.23 15:50:00 - [21]
 

One of the biggest disconnects between EVE and other MMOs is the lack of immediate skill feedback due to game play. Having skills and skillpoints distributed via the completion of in-game missions and quests would provide that sort of virtual crack that keeps the other major MMOs pumping. Even a small experience point distribution will keep people keen.

I like the idea of profession arcs. That is an excellent way of familiarizing the newbie with pvp or whatever in a gentle way.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.23 17:06:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Time Funnel
One of the biggest disconnects between EVE and other MMOs is the lack of immediate skill feedback due to game play. Having skills and skillpoints distributed via the completion of in-game missions and quests would provide that sort of virtual crack that keeps the other major MMOs pumping. Even a small experience point distribution will keep people keen.



I couldn't disagree with this one more. I'm so, so happy that Eve has no "kill X wolves, get Y experience points". That's one of the defining good differences between Eve and all other MMO's. The skilling system is unique and a good thing, no need to change to an XP system.

Stegas Tyrano
Posted - 2011.04.23 17:54:00 - [23]
 

Maybe an Icon that tells us the character is new, from a new account and new owner. It can also be deactivated by people who just created a new alt.

This will help older players identify genuine newbie players who need help


Tsual
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.24 12:05:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Tsual on 24/04/2011 12:05:37
Originally by: Time Funnel
One of the biggest disconnects between EVE and other MMOs is the lack of immediate skill feedback due to game play. Having skills and skillpoints distributed via the completion of in-game missions and quests would provide that sort of virtual crack that keeps the other major MMOs pumping. Even a small experience point distribution will keep people keen.

I like the idea of profession arcs. That is an excellent way of familiarizing the newbie with pvp or whatever in a gentle way.


At best such a system could be introduces as kind of last days in the accademy storyline where each mission nets an appropriate skill level boosting "data injector".Rolling Eyes

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.24 12:54:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Maybe swap the shuttle and noobship models around, imagine starting this game in a Minmatar shuttle with turrets. Shocked


Oh wow this is an excellent idea.

Mr DurkaDur
Posted - 2011.04.24 19:27:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Opertone

agreed, or perhaps an academy... or even virtual reality simulator... instantly fit, instantly in action, may place bets or watch fights in station


Yes.

Cyprus Black
Caldari
Perkone

Posted - 2011.04.24 23:27:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Cyprus Black on 24/04/2011 23:30:51
One of the best ways to improve the NPE is to overhaul the UI (which is already badly needed for all New Eden residents). Not having a million and one options thrown in their faces will help.

Give new players more to do than mining and mission running. Mining in high sec is painful and often impossible due to the army of mining bots running unchecked and rampant.

Using the excuse "New players can participate in all aspects of the game right on day one" is crap and we all know it. They don't have the skill points, experience, nor the game knowledge to do this.


Taurin Herock
Posted - 2011.04.25 23:02:00 - [28]
 

When I was a noob, I found the thing that kept me playing was a community of players who would train me to play the game, answer my questions, give me advice and so on. Fortunately I found a high-sec corp that trained me in the early days.

I think CCP should formalize some kind of "Teaching" or "Apprenticeship" position/job in the game. Do this by making actual people who can take on the designation of "Instructor" (or make different names for the various empires). When a person has that designation, they can get listed somewhere that noobs see, and the noobs contact them to get a person who teaches them how to enjoy the game in some ways. Then as the noob continues to play, the Instruction gets compensated if the noob hits certain milestones.

The details of the compensation system could be done in a a variety of ways, and some of those ways are bound to be more functional than others. For the purpose of making the idea clear I'll propose one system as follows, recognizing their are probably a myriad of better ways to implement the main idea:

Let's Say BOB joins the game as a noob, and The Mittani is an Instructor who is listed on the new player's board instructor listing as having had some success teaching new players and is available to take on a new guy for instruction. The Mittani will answer questions from BOB, teach him game mechanics, chat with him, invite him to join the L4 high sec missions or small gang gank fleets or whatever... If BOB upgrades his account to a full account, then The Mittani get's paid! Say 50m mill isk (I don't care precisely how much it is or if it comes from CCP, or BOB or out of the Ether).

Now what happens is that BOB has an actual human encounter with The Mittani who is a pro and teaches him. This is highly likely to entice BOB to stay, make friends with The Mittani and his corp/alliance, become a paying customer. Also The Mittani will be superior to any "tutorial" in educating BOB on how to play the game, since he is able to answer questions.

If The Mittani is good enough, he can teach several people at once, lead small gangs of noobs into low/null sec space and have them do team activities and The Mittani is getting paid for how many of them are enjoying the game and activating their accounts, some of them even joining his alliance/corp. Win for the noobs! Win for The Mittani!

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.04.26 05:26:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Cyprus Black
One of the best ways to improve the NPE is to overhaul the UI (which is already badly needed for all New Eden residents). Not having a million and one options thrown in their faces will help.


I agree with you there.

Quote:
Give new players more to do than mining and mission running. Mining in high sec is painful


There are all manner of activities for a new player to get involved with right from their first login. Check the New Citizens useful threads page (which needs to be merged with the "New Citizens (useful threads)" page, with Mitnal's link in New Citizen's Q&A sticky being updated ton point to the right page).

Many pages in the wiki are already referenced during the introductory missions - people just need to read that copious amount of information. Work through the tutorials with a completely new player (say, your non-EVE spouse or workmate) and listen to what kinds of questions they ask.

Quote:
Using the excuse "New players can participate in all aspects of the game right on day one" is crap and we all know it. They don't have the skill points, experience, nor the game knowledge to do this.


All a new player needs in order to get involved with life in nullsec from day 1 is a friendly capsuleer willing to show them the ropes.

My only request at this point would be for CCP to bring back the original opening sequence: where AURA is narrating the story about Earth, humanities reach into space, the EVE wormhole, its collapse, the fall of spacefaring civilization, the rise of capsuleers. Then segue Into the "you have become what most people fear" rifter-flying-through-asteroids clip. More background to the story, highlighting the harsh, cruel nature of the world in this game.

The five career missions lead the player through industry, mission-running combat, Astrometrics, basic PvP equipment, ship loss, and working with the market.

All that is left is for the new player to find a gang to hang with. There is nothing a tutorial can do for annew player beyond this point: the pilot is capable of flying their ship, navigating to a destination system, taking part in the market, and engaging in piracy.

Welcome to the world of capitalism and piracy, indeed!

Kasidis
Gallente
Nexus.6
Posted - 2011.04.27 01:01:00 - [30]
 

Well I tested out the "Captains Quarters" this past weekend on Duality and they re-did the entire Npe. You start in the station and work your way out. I thought it was better than the last one. If there was one thing I would want to add, its that the eft and other helpful tools be added to the client along with some kind of beefed up evelopedia. Very Happy


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