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BlankStare
Posted - 2011.04.19 13:34:00 - [31]
 

I think that alot of the BO's problems are because there are few situations where it is actually useful.

The 'Farms and Fields' topic may provide more practical situations where the BO actually has a purpose.

That being said I would change two things about the ships themselves:

1. longer range on covert jump bridge
2. allow use of T2 covert ops cloak. not being able to warp while cloaked really nerfs the ship's utility.

Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.04.19 13:35:00 - [32]
 

Some general things that are linked to ship bonuses and therefore to effective balance:



  • Hybrid weapons need help. Rails are too weak, especially compared to fitting reqs and cap use, and blasters do not work well enough (dps and tracking) in their ultra-close-range envelope to be worth it usually.


  • Sensor damps are close to useless currently, even on ships with bonuses for them (Lachesis, Arazu). It's very rare to find a use case for damps nowadays, especially since you need a lot of them -- one does nothing. Compare to ECM effect.


  • Sub-capital active tanking is inferior to buffer tanking in all except very tiny engagements (i.e. vs at most a few enemies). Since most fights are against larger numbers, active tanks and therefore ships with active tank bonuses become bad. This is especially galling since active reppers are also harder to fit and use lots of cap. Either active tanks need a buff, passive tanks a nerf, or the active tank ship bonuses need a hefty boost (or a combo of those)




These are all pretty well-known issues, but just thought I'd list them here.

Lallante
Reikoku
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.04.19 13:39:00 - [33]
 

Warning to Forum Mods: Vile Rat may cry if you edit his posts.


On topic:
I would REALLY like to see the removal of t1 tiers of frigate, cruiser, BC, BS etc - they add almost nothing to the game (the escalation through them is almost non-existant as they are so role focused). This would mean substantial buffs to many t1 hulls, and might, I suppose, also require some nerfs to bring them all in line.

If a compromise is needed for noobs, I would propose a single hull be deemed a "stepping stone" hull worth about 50% of the rest of the class, for noobs to start in, but I'm really not sure this is needed.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.19 14:07:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 19/04/2011 16:13:49
Blaster ships bigger than frigs. They are just plain terrible at blaster pvp, given the ability's they once had a long time ago.

Problems:

1. Damage projection at blaster range

1.1 Ineffective at damage projection at close range. The lack of the ability to project dps in the only scenarios they are worth using for(solo/small gang) against more common targets than idealized 1o1 crap makes them even if they fight at point blank rather ineffective compared to med range damage dealers for this types of engagements.

1.2 Inability to control a target, a blaster ship should have full control over range and transversal at web ranges(by making the target far slower than the blaster ship) and should be able to keep it up even against multiple targets at point blank(since solo doesn't mean 1o1 since ages).

1.3 This means at least 75-80% webs on the cruisers/BCs and full 90% webs on the BS.

2. Ability to outdamage other hulls

2.1 Blaster ships don't offer a sensible damage advantage(while it is about 50% in the frig class) it is 0-25% in the Cruiser, BC, BS class, what isn't suitable for most situations to make them really useful.

2.2 Increase blaster damage by 10-15% for the large and medium turrets.

2.3 Change T1 weapon rigs to 15% and T2 to 20% and reduce the absurd calibration cost on damage/rof rigs so they become a more sensitive option compared to tanking rigs.

2.4 In regards of changing dps and the ability to project dps at even at point blank, blaster falloff should be reduced by 50% and Null should be changed to +50% optimal and +25% falloff bonus instead of the +25/+25 bonus it got now.

3. Ability to catch stuff

3.1 Speed, a blaster ship is supposed to catch a target before it kills it. Yet they tend to be to slow for this task after fitting.

3.2 Address active tanking and resist rigs, by removing the speed penalty from them and change it to something like lock range(same should be done with shield tanked ships). Also reduce calibration from active tanking rigs, making it possible to mix them with damage rigs.

3.3 Add around 5-10% more base speed(20% to the Astarte and Enyo) to blaster focused hulls.

4. Lack of suitable capacitor size/recharge

4.1 Blaster ships tend to be the most cap intensive ships ingame by mixing active tanking, cap consuming weapons, operating within neut range most of the time and mwding around a lot.

4.2 Both base cap and cap recharge should reflect this extreme cap heavy game play and should allow operating the weapons and a single rep tank at least as long as it takes to kill a similar sized hull under a neut combined with nos(that you can finally fit again with a working web).

5. Fitting

5.1 Minor fitting fixes of the Hype, Brutix and Astarte to be at least able to field Ions + tank. 5% more grid and a bit more CPU on the mega would be nice to.

6. Fix the T2 blaster ships

6.1 Diemost and Astarte need a complete makeover to make the useful in her role given that they add not much over her T1 hulls and fill the same role(close range brawler) that are also occupied by a huge amount of cheaper T1 hulls from the other races.

Jame Jarl Retief
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:37:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief on 19/04/2011 15:37:33
In my (very) limited experience, I feel Gallente and Caldari ships need to be looked at.

Hybrids are in definite trouble compared to every other weapon system in the game. Anyone who says different either A) doesn't fly these ships and/or B) is delusional (I've seen someone post a short video of doing triple-digit damage per volley on a Megathron and claiming it was working just fine).

Drones need to be looked at as well, especially for drone ships. Good example of this is the Myrmidon battlecruiser. It has 75 bandwidth, exactly the same as a Vexor cruiser. Far too low, needs to be upgraded to 100 at least. Capacity might have to be increased too. And, of course, drone modules could use T2 variants, etc., etc. You know the drill. As a racial weapon system (which the tutorial claims is drones for Gallente), drones are badly neglected.

Further, limiting the number of drones under control to 5 for everyone is rather unfair to Gallente. For example, a Rupture can use EWAR drones while still doing a lot of damage with turrets and launchers, while a Vexor has to use damage drones or lose a very large portion of its damage. IMHO, some system needs to be worked out to keep damage drones and special/utility drones separate. Or give drone boats the option to fly +1 special/utility drone per skill level, and tweak their effectiveness.

Caldari ships, by relation (second race to use Hybrids along with Gallente) need to be looked at as well. But I believe fixing Hybrids will go a very long way towards making Caldari ships function better.

EWAR could use a review as well. Gallente dampening is rather weak, when compared to Amarr tracking disruption, which is weaker compared to Caldari jamming. It has its place, I won't deny that, but it is highly situational. Just ask people doing FW missions. People HATE running missions vs Caldari because they get jammed and missile spammed, but they love going against Gallente because Hybrids hit like wet noodles and dampening is highly ineffective, almost negligible really.


DarkAegix
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:48:00 - [36]
 

Hybrids!
The Hyperion has bonuses to armour rep and hybrids, so if you want to take advantage of all of these bonuses you'd fit:
-Neutron blasters
->Which require a MWD
-Armour rep/s
->Which require a heavy cap booster

What's the similarity between neutron blasters, a MWD, an armour rep and heavy cap booster?
Extremely high powergrid requirements.
You end up ditching or lessening the value of a bonus, either by dropping to electron blasters or not fitting a rep.
Popular and excellent ships like the Cane, Drake, Abaddon and Rifter all have bonuses which you simply can't avoid. Useful bonuses, which don't force you to make ridiculous sacrifices.

Another observation is that shield-tanking Minmatar ships can slap on gyrostablisers and do more damage than blasters.

I like what the CSM are aiming for, small balances and fixes made every single patch.
CCP know that hybrids are broken. They actually do. It's not a priority because "No one uses hybrids, so it doesn't affect anyone, so it's low on our list."

If CCP were to decrease hybrid fitting reqs by 5%, or increase tracking by 5%, I'll admit that it won't be perfectly balanced. But it's better than nothing, and in 4 or so patches you'll find the game much more balanced than previously.

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:10:00 - [37]
 

-Gallente-related items: Damps, Blasters (more tracking, less cap use), Rails (more damage, easier to fit) Info Links (need to be looked at), active tanking bonuses (weak now that EVE’s population makes 1v1 or even 1v3 engagements rare), Nemesis (could really use an agility buff), Speed (for the get-in-your-face-race their ships are slow and ungainly), split missile/gun bonuses on certain T2 ships (more of a minmatar thing isn’t it?), T2 Blaster boats (blaster adjustments alone might not be enough to fix the Enyo, Deimos, and Astarte so a revisit to these ships is advised)

-Assault Frigs: Need a 4th bonus like EVERY OTHER TECH 2 SHIP in the game. At this point, I almost don’t care what it is. Amarr needs looking at (one does too little damage, the other cant tackle/snipe).

-EAF: Boost the capacitor, lower the sig radius, boost the agility. The Kitsune should have at least the lock range of the Griffin. Kitsune could use -1 H slot +1 L slot, Hyena -1 H slot, +1 M slot.

-Faction Ships: Dramiel could be *slightly* slower and *slightly* less DPS. Sansha cruiser/frig need a look. Mach needs to lose a slot somewhere. The empire faction ships could use a revisit in light of the pirate ship buffs.

-T1 Cruisers: Some combat hulls are just useless, there’s one or two in every race and they need a role.

-Tier 1 BC: Brutix needs some fitting love and perhaps -1M, +1L. Ferox is alright if blaster changes come through, though more fitting space wouldn’t hurt. Prophecy needs a role.

-Heavy Missiles: Need a range reduction on T1 and T2 high damage ammo, range increase on T2 precision ammo. This will hopefully balance the Drake

-T2 Missiles: Need a rebalance similar to the T2 turret ammo rebalance

-Logi: Onieros and Basilisk both need a slight speed, fitting, and sig buff.

-BS: Abaddon is crazy good right now. Lower base armor stats so EHP goes down but resists stay up, lower drone bay to 50, and something needs to be done with BS class lasers in general. Rokh is underpowered in the sniping role compared with Maelstrom and Apoc.

-Black Ops: range increase, fuel needs to be looked at, either cov ops cloak it or eliminate the scan res penalties for the t1 cloaks, base stats and bonuses need to be revisited (speed, HP, Sin etc). There should be a reason for the Black Ops to deploy to the field

-T3: Legion and Proteus need tweaking, some sub systems are dominant over others in the same slot they should be diverse but balanced, 5th subsystem would be welcome

-Destroyers: Speed buff, HP buff or Sig buff, look at reducing the R.O.F. penalty, ship bonuses need revisiting

-HAC: Zealot needs to be toned down a little; though it’s the “gank” HAC for Amarr it can tank as well or better than a Sac while doing more dps with better range options. Caldari need love.

-Caps: Dreads need a role, siege timer should be lowered to 5min, cap class shield tanking needs a revisit, cynoing mechanic could be balanced better against hot dropping

-Supers: remove burst ECM from lowsec (or add lowsec DD), do moms really need holdover logi bonuses from carriers?, some way to promote the death rate and lower the production rate, add more granular security for super cap ship arrays so pilots are more willing to leave the ship, is it possible to leave them in space if player is logged out? Cause the 15minute timer is saving a lot of these things from rightly deserved deaths

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:20:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde
-Black Ops: range increase, fuel needs to be looked at, either cov ops cloak it or eliminate the scan res penalties for the t1 cloaks, base stats and bonuses need to be revisited (speed, HP, Sin etc). There should be a reason for the Black Ops to deploy to the field




Man can you imagine a fully cloaking blops bs? I'd fly nothing but that, all the time.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:56:00 - [39]
 

Pet Peeves:
Would be sweet to have more actual options in frigate/cruiser line-ups other than 'highest tier' > All.

Decrease signatures on destroyers and use the marauder paradigm (few guns, high bonus) .. costs a fortune to fit all those damn guns Razz

Decrease EAS signatures and mass to T1 levels. In fact they should not be significantly worse than T1 in any area ('lol' Kitsune lock range).

Look over buffer tanks on BC and down. Damage hasn't been increased while EHP has gone up 50-100% over the years .. non-buffer fits have become obsolete as staying power trumps all.

Make AF's immune to principal eWar as fourth bonus (TP, TD, Damp, ECM).

Swap fitting requirements on neuts and nos.
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
...

How on earth do you get 80km out of Abaddon pulses, I don't get that unless looking at 1.5xfalloff .. and 2 TE's, those slots come from heatsinks I presume which leaves it with awesome range but pitiful damage .. kind of like a BS sized laser Drake Smile

Maelstrom is an Auto boat, Tempest is the artillery boat ... bonuses reveal that quite handily. If anything Tempest grid could do with a buff to make it a little easier to actually arty the damn things.

Hookbill vs. Slicer can be a very close fight and ultimately comes down to Hook fit .. my standard active tank Slicer burned through a TE Hook before hitting half armour ..
Properly flown Firetails are considerably more dangerous if you ask me Smile

Angel ships need an agility hit, let them travel ungodly fast as present but make them handle like crap.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:13:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 19/04/2011 17:14:06

Scorch M and especially L. It's far too good. Far too much tracking, far too much range. If blasterboats aren't supposed to be able to track smaller ships, why can pulse boats do so?

Nidhoggur. Need to be a shield tanker to keep the Chimera company. Swap two lowslots to medslots and rebalance CPU accordingly.

Archon. Too good, too easy to fit. Nerf.

Slaves on capitals. No.

Angel ships. Speed is fine; huge agility and great damage as well is not. Cut agility and drone bays.

Field Command Ships. Hopelessly obsolete, need a complete rework.

RedSplat
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:44:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: RedSplat on 19/04/2011 18:49:12
Scorch optimal and Pulse Laser (esp Tachyons) base damage need to be looked at and scaled back

Blasters need to be looked at because currently on the hulls that fit them they are sub par. Rails are fine barring excessive cap use.

The Minmatar lineup is stuffed full of poor slot layouts that make certain hulls under performers. T1 Minmatar hulls dont have enough of a velocity adv. over other races to justify Nano fits when taking into account the sacrifices that have to be made to achieve such fits (poor slot layout strikes again here). For the love of god un-nerf the capacitor. Yes we get that ~capless weapons system~ and all that but when an Amarr boat can run its lasers and a MWD for longer than a comparable Minmatar hull can run just its MWD something is ****ed up.

Typhoon needs more PG, so does tempest. Tempest needs another Mid, can afford to lose a low.

Why does the Maelstrom have only 627 less base Arm. HP than Shield? Lose 1-2K Armour for shield HP in return.

Ewar drones suck with the one exception.

Most t1 frigs are so useless the only people that fly them dont know any better.

Give the Omen enough PG to fit HPL's.

Nerf Dramiel. We knew it would be OP the moment it hit SISI and it has been. Either drop its PG to force people to undergun it if they want to MSE tank, or reduce its speed and agility to 10% faster than a fast Jaguar.

Blackops are terrible. Nice concept crap execution. Cant jump far enough, cant tank, most of them do poor DPS and the costs in materials is far too high.

Drakes do too much competently. Either nerf PG or drop a missile hardpoint and midslot

For the love of God make the Hel more than ablative tank for the rest of the supercap blob.

Dreads suck in the meta and they are an unappealing train now that we have super carriers.

Frothgar
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:56:00 - [42]
 

Dreadnaughts currently have no role except bait right now. SCs perform any role a dread can do, better and have increased mobility to boot. They also are favorite targets for titans to DD due to the fact that they just don't have the ability to realistically tank a DD.

Suggestions -> Make dreads more resiliant to doomsdays/bombers while in siege (50% reduction to doomsday/bomber damage recieved while in siege)
Increase dread jump range to match carriers, also give dreads a slight damage or range bonus while in siege. Its just too easy to set up carrier/SCs outside of dread range and kill every last one from the other side of a POS bubble.

I think for the most part vs subcaps, dreads are very well balanced. Against SCs and titans they fall far short, and just aren't used much anymore.

Tier 1 battlecruisers are rarely used compared to Tier 2. Normalize EHP values between the two, and adjust fitting and bonuses to promote versatility within the class as a whole.

Hybrids -> Small blasters are fine for the most part, however medium and large blasters are terrible. There really isn't any reason to fit anything other than autocannons/lazers/heavy missiles on Cruiser/BC sized hulls. Projectiles and Lazers are quite good on BS hulls as evidenced by the prominance on 1400 mael and Baddon fleets. Optimal + Falloff on 1400s vs Megapulse IIs seems to be pretty fairly balanced. Unfortunately ther just isn't any place for 425 rails, 350 rails and blasters within the arena. Boost Falloff for Medium/Large hybrids to add more practical application of damage.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.19 19:28:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 18/07/2011 19:33:00
The problem with armor tanked blaster boats is they are as agile and fast as a two-legged, pregnant cow and have the attack range of t-rex's arms.

The problem with rails is they have no useful niche in the game right now.

The problem with Caldari hybrid ships is they are slow and do very little damage.

The problem with snipers in general is how hard it is to keep range. Whether it be the silly speed a dram can fly, the 100km range max warpin range, the hypefast probe scan times, or the alpha weapons (the natural sniping type of weapon) favoring medium range.

Frigates are unbalanced because the current trade off is a little extra tank for a lot of speed and speed wins every single time. So any frigate sized ship that cannot dictate range is worthless in most situations, and the slow faction ships are worth little more than as hangar trophies.

Dreads are sitting ducks that are easy to ninja gank with high alpha ships like the scarriers and titans, making them useful as bait or only in situations when enemy fleets are known to be no where near and are instantly safed up if so much as a single enemy ship shows up within 10 jumps. They are currently very dreadful, but not the definition that was intended.

Moon goo is unbalanced. It means, from an alliance-level, you are either in control of systems/constellations in the north or you have a harder time investing in alliance-level projects.

Titans need to be reworked to fit their current mechanic. It is hard to have a game rule prohibiting account sharing while at the same time creating alliance-level ships that, by default, require the access of multiple people in most cases.

Scarriers are evil creatures that keep captive a character with at least a year of training while usurping the game niche of dreadnoughts. At the same time, they are "I win" buttons for small-to-medium sized fleets. Ten scarriers shouldn't be able to keep hundreds of battleships cowering in fear.

The self destruct command is broken. In combat situations, it is used for any number of different things that do not benefit the game.

Local makes botting easy.

Belt ratting makes botting easy.

Hauler missions make botting easy.

Null sec completely lacks any incentive to obtain low end minerals locally. Shipping them in is far far more cost and energy effective.

Incursions provide far too much income, having become the new "anom" for null sec players (fly in to low sec, join incursion fleet, ???, profit).

BlOps lack range and fuel storage space to be reasonable ships. They also have no use other than as a transport, meaning few people are willing to use one as it is generally no fun to click a button then listen to the rest of the fleet enjoy the rewards.

Ships with active rep bonuses waste a bonus for most PVP situations. Making them generally less useful ships, especially the ones that are bad for PVE.

Pulse and AC have insane tracking, impressive dps, and reasonable range making the use of anything else for CR-to-MR fights useless.

Armor is heavily favored by mechanics from implants, base resists, and buffer for anything BS sized and up in PVP (with the exception of a few BS that need the speed).

Make super carriers bigger. We should be able to pick them out on a battlefield to identify and kill far easier than we currently can.

Scrap the Moa hull. Its shear ugliness keeps people away, even if hybrids were useful.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.19 19:36:00 - [44]
 

I think the biggest change to ship balance needs to be in how CCP approaches it, not in terms of a particular change to a particular class of ships. Right now, CCP does a balance change about every 3 years to a given ship/gun. That's about 10x too long a cycle. If a class is fine, leave it alone by all means, but if a class is deeply problematic, then change it in steps, and regularly re-evaluate how your past changes are doing. The poster child for this is Black Ops - introduced three and a half years ago, with one nice-but-minor tweak in that time(ability to ignore cynojams). They're still the least commonly flown ship class in Eve by far, despite being one of the most inherently cool.

CCP should have a policy of looking at ships that are that hilariously underused every few months, and tweaking them upwards until balance is reached. No massive buffs that will leave them OP like they did with motherships, but calm tweaks every few months, and watch the results. lack Ops, say you give them a covops cloak, see if they're better three months later. If not, up their EHP by a quarter and wait another few months. It won't get them to the right level instantly, but if they were to do things this way then we sure as hell wouldn't be here three plus years later with them still being junk. This strongly implies that CCP should have a permanent balance team, or at least a "balance dude", to look at this stuff regularly and in depth, and not ad-hoc it like they have in past.

Of note, the above policy applies much more to buffs than nerfs. Nerfs annoy players more, so they should be less common, and thus more impactful. The way that nanos and the Falcon were nerfed were both good, at least procedurally. But for the usual suspects that people whine about needing a buff, small and regular tweaks should be the name of the game.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:45:00 - [45]
 

Wall of text as promised, I'll start at the lowest point and work down class by class:

T1 frigates have three major issues - the tier system horribly cripples the lower tier frigates, several ship hulls are designed for roles that nobody wants (mining frigates are a case in point, as 'ineffective ship that newbies fly for a week until they can afford/operate a mining cruiser then never undock in again' isn't a valid role by anyone's standards), and other hulls have inappropriate bonuses for the ship's designated role - nobody flies a probing or ewar frigate for their damage output, so why do they even have weapon bonuses?

I want variety in the T1 frigate range. I want to be able to tell goonwaffe newbies something other than 'crosstrain to minmatar frigate and autocannons because everything except rifters are crap'. I want gallente pilots to be thinking 'hmm, should I fly an atron or incursus for this gang' and there be definite pros and cons to each. I want to actually see a caldari frigate once in a while.

T2 Frigates - the existing interceptors monopolize most of the roles you'd want from a combat ship - speed and tackling aside, we have interceptors with damage bonuses, double damage bonuses, optimal bonuses, EHP bonuses, lots of guns. The purpose of the interceptor is poorly defined, and because of this it keeps treading on the toes of its cousins in the assault frigate and EAF classes, leaving them with few viable roles to move into that aren't already covered by a (faster, harder to hit) interceptor. Also, inevitable '4th AF bonus' comment goes here.

The only real roles that the interceptor can't overlap on are those of the covert ops and stealth bomber, which apart from the pointless weapon bonuses on the covert ops hulls (see above) are arguably the best balanced T2 frigs available - jokes about the helios and its dronebay and lack of 3rd highslot aside, its an excellent reconnaissance ship.

Faction frigates: the dramiel is absurdly broken, the navy faction ships feel slightly underpowered.

T1 destroyers fulfill a role nobody wants or needs - 'pitiful damage from a long way away' is not a useful contribution, and with the exception of easy mode level 1 missioning and suicide ganking shuttles and rookie ships in an artillery thrasher they're pointless. Maybe they were useful before the HP buff in Revelations(?), but that was, what, 5 years ago? They're too slow, too easy to hit, with not enough hitpoints, not enough damage output, and not enough utility slots. The catalyst in particular is a mess - combined falloff and optimal bonuses? Ugh. Make it a blaster and drone gankwagon, already.

T2 Destroyers are better balanced than their T1 equivalent - the Sabre is arguably slightly overpowered but that's mainly a function of autocannons having such low grid and CPU requirements. The heretic and flycatcher are both usable, their main problem being fitting issues if you try to actually squeeze missile/rocket launchers onto them. The Eris is a horrible abomination, however - split weapon systems including a pointless drone, and a lack of valuable midslots.

T1 Cruisers mostly balance out reasonably, and most of their disparities are actually with the modules they fit - the rupture dominated the Fanfest PvP tournament but that was as much as anything to do with autocannon supremacy as the actual hulls. Hybrid turret cruisers are bad because hybrid turrets are bad, non-ECM E-War cruisers are bad because non-ECM E-War is bad. The hulls themselves are reasonably usable.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:46:00 - [46]
 

Faction Cruisers have some real dogs amongst their ranks – how many of us have forgotten that the Navy Osprey or Scythe Fleet Issue even existed until we saw them on the ship browser window of EFT, our failed theorycrafting attempts at 'there must be some way to make this thing viable' mocking us silently? The cynabal is perhaps slightly over the top, but certainly not a priority issue, nowhere near as overpowered as the dramiel is .

T3 Cruisers aren't something I'm too familiar with, but the Legion is by all accounts vastly inferior to the other three and there's a bunch of no-brainer subsystem configurations (with their corresponding 'hahaha why would you ever fit this' mirrors). Also, 5th subsystem already!

T1 Battlecruisers are where we see the worst offences of the tiering system, with the possible exception of the Brutix the tier 1s are all dreadful piles of garbage that nobody in their right mind would undock except for comedy lossmail purposes. They badly need a viable niche that isn't 'expendable bait'. Conversely, the tier 2s themselves are actually fairly well matched to each other, all having viable combat roles.

T2 Battlecruisers are, again not a class I have too much experience with, except to say that as mentioned earlier itt they have suffered in the command ship role by the appearance of T3 command cruisers outperforming their bonusing role whilst sitting in a safespot impossible to probe.

T1 Battleships, like T1 cruisers, are mostly good or bad depending on whether their primary weapon system is good or bad. The FotM metagame currently leans towards laser platforms and projectile platforms (and sometimes projectile turrets fitted on supposedly laser platforms!), so reviving the Rokh, Megathron and Hyperion would largely depend on what happens to hybrids. There is an issue with the Hyperion and Maelstrom receiving active tanking bonuses in an environment where remote repping reigns supreme over local repping, but this is relatively minor.

T2 Battleships see their worst offences amongst the Blackops class, which is supposedly a combat ship with a portal ability but in practise came so badly pre-nerfed that they can barely fight a combat and barely portal. The Widow is usable in a support role, mostly due to its jamming capabilities, but the rest need help. Increase their combat capabilities (good T2 resists as mentioned earlier in this thread would be a good start) and increase their portal/jump range. Marauders seem to mostly work as intended, with the same issue around weapon systems as T1 cruisers and battleships.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:47:00 - [47]
 


Capitals, as I said in the other thread, are currently thrown way out of line by the absurd overpowering of supercarriers. 0.0 has become a 1 dimensional arms race of who can field the most Nyxes. Dreadnoughts and carriers can now only operate after you have counted your opponents supercaps and confirmed that you have more than they do. Supercarriers are dying at an unprecedented rate, yes, but when they do its almost always to larger packs of other supercarriers.

Supercarriers, the Nyx and Aeon especially, have 3 main advantages over other shiptypes - the massive EHP buffer, massive variation in their primary weapon type, and the large number of utility slots. These things combine to produce a ship which can omni-fit against any circumstance with little in the way of drawbacks. That isn't balanced, nor is it particularly fun, and it has come to dominate the capital warfare scene. Some relatively modest nerfs to the three advantages I mentioned above would go a long way to bring them back under control.

Oddly enough, even Titans aren't particularly overpowered by themselves – the removal of the AoE doomsday increased their vulnerability to dictors and subcaps, as did the capital gun buff in Dominion (because they now are encouraged to fit XL turrets or launchers in the highs rather than smartbombs and neuts, and damage mods in the lows which compromise their tank and/or capacitor). If every supercarrier was deleted from the server database tomorrow Dreadnoughts and Carriers would be mostly balanced, as they would no longer be rendered obsolete as sov-grinding tools and anti-capital vessels, whilst retaining some vulnerability to subcapital fleets. Some minor tweaks to them (the 5 minute siege cycle, for example) would be welcome, but the main issue of imbalance amongst capitals right now is the omnipotance of supercarriers.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles

Posted - 2011.04.19 21:00:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Command Ships (boost Eos)

There is currently no reason to fly an Eos. It needs a much better tank to be useful for armor fleets; it currently tanks worse than a BS. Information warfare links should do with a revamp, too. They're nice, but not nearly as useful as the three others.


The information warfare link modules currently suffer from a stacking penalty. The gang bonuses, implants and skills that go into them become worthless for anyone already fitting any modules to boost the same stats.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:28:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Marconus Orion
I detest that the following statement is true in this game:

"Why fly a,b,c when x,y,z exists?"

That applies to so many ships right now. So many that are simply inferior to other ships so they see no use at all. Granted you could name any ship and there will be some die hard out there who had some mild success with it once out of a hundred times and swears by it but lets be realistic here.


You know I love this post. I agree. I hate that whole classes of ships end up obsoleted because some other class does it better. Dreadnoughts I'm looking at you!

Keep the ideas coming guys. Don't worry about interpreting the thread too much, just post all your hair brained ideas on how to fix things and things you got a gripe with.


+1! While I acknowledge that some ship classes have basically been obsoleted (or were never truly viable), I would contend that the primary culprit is the ship tier system. In that spirit, I think the most egregious flaws in high level ship balance are:
- The Ship Tier System unnecessarily obsoletes entire roles for certain races (Amarr T1 cruiser lineup is a good example of why this is a bad thing).
- Supercaps are far far too common. IMO, nerf supercaps and monitor the situation to see if dreads become useful again.
- Boost EAFs and BOBS
- Nerf unprobeability
- Boost fleet command ships gang mod strength (or nerf T3s')
- Change the ECM mechanic to be less frustrating but equally effective.

There's a lot more, of course, but I think that's probably a really big chunk of stuff to do. Neutral

-Liang

Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:53:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
I detest that the following statement is true in this game:

"Why fly a,b,c when x,y,z exists?"

That applies to so many ships right now. So many that are simply inferior to other ships so they see no use at all. Granted you could name any ship and there will be some die hard out there who had some mild success with it once out of a hundred times and swears by it but lets be realistic here.

This sums it up very well.
-Currently, there is no reason for anyone to fly lower tier frigates, lower tier cruisers or lower tier BCs (in general). This includes, amongst others, things like the Slasher, Atron, Executioner, Condor, Breacher, Bellicose, Omen, Maller, Celestis, Moa, Ferox, Prophecy, Brutix for various reasons.
-Additionally, the whole class of Hybrid ships, Gallente Blaster boats and Caldari Railgun boats, are almost never used. They all have serious fitting problems and their weapons are mostly outclassed by all the others.
-As mentioned elsewhere, the lower Navy ships, Scythe, Osprey, Exequror are all outclassed by higher tier t1 ships.

-The question of OP ships is one that should be very carefully considered, as, for example, nerfing the Dramiel, the Cynabel or the Machariel might make them next to useless. A small nerf perhaps, but not much. Likewise, although the Drake is considered OP due to its high resists, big tank, independence of cap and the huge range of heavy missiles, a nerf might make it substandard.

TL;DR, the most obvious imbalances, like the lower tier ships and hybrids should be looked at first as these are the most pressing and rebalances should be done on a ship by ship basis, not whole classes.

P.S. Although I don't fly them, obligatory nerf supercaps and buff Minnie and Caldari caps.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.19 22:57:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Vile rat
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde
-Black Ops: range increase, fuel needs to be looked at, either cov ops cloak it or eliminate the scan res penalties for the t1 cloaks, base stats and bonuses need to be revisited (speed, HP, Sin etc). There should be a reason for the Black Ops to deploy to the field




Man can you imagine a fully cloaking blops bs? I'd fly nothing but that, all the time.


Which is why putting a covert ops cloaking device on a battleship would be insanely over powered. There is too much cloaking going on in this game anyways. A covert ops cloak should not be the answer to fixing ships.

Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.19 23:46:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: Vile rat
Man can you imagine a fully cloaking blops bs? I'd fly nothing but that, all the time.


Which is why putting a covert ops cloaking device on a battleship would be insanely over powered. There is too much cloaking going on in this game anyways. A covert ops cloak should not be the answer to fixing ships.


Unless the ship in question is designed to be used in cloaky gangs, where every other ship has a covops cloak. Then it seems like a pretty sensible answer.

Vile: If you would fly a covops cloaked Panther all the time, you have vastly more money than sense.

Tsubutai
The Tuskers
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:38:00 - [53]
 

The tier system needs to be abolished for frigates, cruisers, and battlecruisers (low tier BS are pretty much all fine). It makes no sense to have ~half the hulls in game be rendered completely useless by a lack of slots/fitting room/useful roles.

Assault Frigates and Electronic Attack Ships need a fourth bonus/re-examination, respectively. Assault Frigs are fun but rather underwhelming; EAFs are basically always outperformed by the corresponding recon. Would be nice to see the speed and agility of AFs pushed up to match their T1 counterparts (in addition to getting sensible 4th bonuses), and for EAFs to get an interceptor-like sig reduction, perhaps.

The Dramiel needs a nerf; at the moment, it effectively obsoletes almost every other combat frigate in the game. The Worm (and to a slightly lesser extent, the Cruor and Succubus as well) could use a little buff. The Daredevil's about right for a pirate frigate - very powerful, with a couple of unique characteristics that give it some flavor that other frigates lack, but also a well-defined set of weaknesses that mean it can be beaten by other hulls in its class even when well fit and flown.

Both unprobeability and the ability to provide ganglink bonuses from off-grid locations should be eliminated, for risk-reward reasons in both cases. Off-grid boosting makes it possible to contribute significantly to the outcome of a fight without placing one's ship in harm's way; unprobeability greatly enhances this for T3 boosters and massively reduces the risks associated with running missions and escalations in supposedly hostile space without meaningfully reducing the rewards for doing so.

Medium and large hybrid platforms in general need a reassessment, as they're rather underwhelming for various reasons. Small blasters and rails (and the hulls that use them) are extremely competitive, and need no attention.

tut346813
Posted - 2011.04.20 04:42:00 - [54]
 

super carriers

just that. they are meant to be super carriers, not mini titans

crimson fire
Posted - 2011.04.20 07:00:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: crimson fire on 20/04/2011 11:31:32

First , thank you for this initiative! Lets hope CCP will listen to you.

Obviously Hybrids/gallente ships are the worst bag atm.

If you decide to fix gallente via ship changes you really need to fix ALL galente ships, so clearly it is a gun problem.

For blasters the paper damage is ok, it the applied damage that sux. The reason is 2 fold. Tracking and range since the web nerf. The answer is right there, it really can be that simple. Boost tracking and give gallente web bonus or give speed bonus. If speed bonus remember tracking suffers. If web then remember why the nerf was introduced. Make blasters the shotgun weapon. PG requirement of those big blasters need a look at since you cant fit them and still have a tank. Thats a bit harsh. Alternately rethink blasters completely, scrap it give it a new name and make a totally new concept.

Rails, plain suck. And they are more complicated. They really only do with antimatter so their damage type is limited and they dont do enough of it. Maybe they can be fixed with ammo changes?


van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc
The Kadeshi
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:21:00 - [56]
 

Black Ops

Kai Lae from Morsus Mihi wrote a very good analysis on them in the "Black Ops - Upcoming changes" thread from 2009. Even Abathur/Seleene complimented his efforts.

I basically agrees with everything he wrote, but what I think he missed is the timespan a BO is locked in place during a bridge. It would be nice for a BO pilot to be able to cut the bridge short and jump to the covert cyno. That would allow the BOs to see a bit more action than just act as glorified bridges for bombers.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:36:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Swynet on 08/05/2011 10:44:30
Originally by: Vile rat
You know I love this post. I agree. I hate that whole classes of ships end up obsoleted because some other class does it better.


Infortunatly when I've created my char didn't saw any lightening window saying I was about to make the worst choice for general game fun:

Why use ships designed for very short engagements ranges when:
- they can't survive until they get in to the said distance
- don't have enough speed/web/scram base bonus to counter kitters
- don't have the appropriate bonus to make their anaemic blasters do real damage
- use huge amounts or their shy cap when shooting
- use T2 ammo with tracking drawback -the shown numbers in EFT/Info are not advantage/applied in game

Last question: why should any one want to fly Gallente for other thing than drone boats actually?

EDIT: Drone boats that can be more effective with a full rack of T2 autocanons than half high slots with Neutrons or full Ions? -looks like a big fail design or real issue that even a blind can see.

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.20 12:54:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Vile: If you would fly a covops cloaked Panther all the time, you have vastly more money than sense.


I can't find fault with this statement.


Ogogov
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.20 14:34:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Ogogov on 20/04/2011 15:07:28
Meh, edit.

Blaster boats needs completely rethinking.

Currently they don't have the speed or ability to dictate engagement range, they don't have the agility to mitigate tracking concerns, they don't live long enough to get into optimal and their energy reserves are too depleted even if they do. Warp Scramblers shutting down MWDs and the ascension of the Autocannon were the final nails in the blaster boats coffin.

Railguns need significant changes such as:

One ammo type but a cool capacitor-consumption slideybar tied in with the overheat mechanic, so you can melt your guns in one pop by discharging your entire capacitor into your weapons for a headshot or you can paint-chip at short range with higher tracking. Obviously the former example would be "in the red" and there should be a "safe" cap-hungry setting for more artillery-type performance.

Shield piercing or armor piercing shells.

Lower fitting requirements or changes to the hulls in question

Active armor tanking and the ships that use it

...Suck, fix it. The Armor repair bonus on most hulls is a complete and utter waste.

Drone BW limit on Myrmidon
raise it

Information Warfare links
Can we make these less crap or at least change them so that they actually do something for their racial class?



CCP needs a dedicated balance team to tackle these issues. They are too deep and too complex for a lone dev to jump in and make ill-advised changes.

Eve is an RPG at its core, and to not have some dedicated staff devoted to what is effectively the core game mechanics - regardless of whether it's an emergent sandbox or not - just looks silly. Just look at what happened with Motherships/Supercarriers when one dev decided to take an idea and run with it - it was a disaster.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.20 15:24:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: Vile rat
Man can you imagine a fully cloaking blops bs? I'd fly nothing but that, all the time.


Which is why putting a covert ops cloaking device on a battleship would be insanely over powered. There is too much cloaking going on in this game anyways. A covert ops cloak should not be the answer to fixing ships.


Unless the ship in question is designed to be used in cloaky gangs, where every other ship has a covops cloak. Then it seems like a pretty sensible answer.


Not to mention the possibility of implementing an active direct counter to cloaking.


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