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ehon
Posted - 2011.04.22 01:57:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: ehon on 22/04/2011 02:03:26
Edited by: ehon on 22/04/2011 01:59:44
dam that's a mighty nice summary you have their, sadly im in high sec as I finish college and well the indy in high suck, already sucks badly so more suck means less want to play or kill all high suck except training areas as much nerfing as high suck gets


you know here is a decent idea, forget death traps "worm holes" we should be considering making null much deeper so their will be a reson for fresh ultra dense trit out their ans such, could make it like 40 jumps out from the nearest high sec. and thus you can finialy leave high sec alone and have a end game really deep sub null sec space.

so basicly have it with the sleeper AI new ores and new moon goo and bring the t3 stuff out in to the deep null secs would fix EVERY THING LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.22 06:46:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Shivus Tao
Pretty much the people advocating jump bridge removal have no clue on the dynamics of 0.0 alliances....

Would be a much better world if all opinions and reality itself obeyed your every command, wouldn't it? Very Happy

If imports are cheap and easy then no local industry will evolve and existing industry will atrophy, look at western societies today for real world proof of this very simple truth ..
Bridges are a slice of the problem but irrelevant in this thread as it focuses on the bigger slice: the industrialization of null.

Problem is not just how to make null self-sufficient (or even an exporter) but to do so without making people want to claw their eyes out and having every five man roam break the back of ongoing operations.

@OP: Keep the thread on topic or a moderator will. There are plenty of whine threads available for bridge pro/con and anomaly mudslinging for those so inclined.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.22 16:03:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Would be a much better world if all opinions and reality itself obeyed your every command, wouldn't it? Very Happy

If imports are cheap and easy then no local industry will evolve and existing industry will atrophy, look at western societies today for real world proof of this very simple truth ..
Bridges are a slice of the problem but irrelevant in this thread as it focuses on the bigger slice: the industrialization of null.

Problem is not just how to make null self-sufficient (or even an exporter) but to do so without making people want to claw their eyes out and having every five man roam break the back of ongoing operations.

@OP: Keep the thread on topic or a moderator will. There are plenty of whine threads available for bridge pro/con and anomaly mudslinging for those so inclined.

Your understanding of forums is only matched by your understanding of null sec industry. It boils down to this: high sec supplies null sec because the cost to produce is significantly lower in high sec than null sec (risk is part of costing). Decreasing risk of null sec is a bad idea. People in null don't want to mine low ends, that's why I think null needs hauler anoms.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.22 17:12:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
..high sec supplies null sec because the cost to produce is significantly lower in high sec than null sec (risk is part of costing).

Have you even read the thread? The whole idea is to discuss possibilities that will help wean null of the Jita teat.
Problem now is that prices are not only rock bottom in Empire, but importing it to null has the same low risk attached and takes less time than hauling goods Amarr <-> Jita ..
In short: There is no reason why any sane person would start building in null .. even bloody supers are built by reproccing high/low-sec goods (carriers) for christs sake!
Originally by: Bagehi
that's why I think null needs hauler anoms.

And I have said as much. But if you have ever tried looting from a hauler spawn in deep null then you'd wish you picked up mining .. just as tedious but with more clicking.
Will be a great part of the solution, but even you can't believe that dumping a crap ton of minerals into the system solves all the problems.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.22 17:23:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 22/04/2011 17:23:27
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Bagehi
..high sec supplies null sec because the cost to produce is significantly lower in high sec than null sec (risk is part of costing).

Have you even read the thread? The whole idea is to discuss possibilities that will help wean null of the Jita teat.
Problem now is that prices are not only rock bottom in Empire, but importing it to null has the same low risk attached and takes less time than hauling goods Amarr <-> Jita ..
In short: There is no reason why any sane person would start building in null .. even bloody supers are built by reproccing high/low-sec goods (carriers) for christs sake!

That sounds a lot like what I just said, except I was referencing comparative advantage to explain the situation.
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Bagehi
that's why I think null needs hauler anoms.

And I have said as much. But if you have ever tried looting from a hauler spawn in deep null then you'd wish you picked up mining .. just as tedious but with more clicking.
Will be a great part of the solution, but even you can't believe that dumping a crap ton of minerals into the system solves all the problems.

I much prefer hauler spawns to mining in null sec. MUUUUUUCH prefer. Significantly less risk than having 5 mining alts slowly grinding on ore to just be hauling the minerals to a station. Plus, who would mine low ends when there are high ends right beside them. Easier to hand that task off to PVEers.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.24 03:04:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 24/04/2011 03:08:37

First off, logistics (and I mean the "convoy of freighters" style) needs to make at least a partial comeback.

Severely nerfing (or even eliminating) jumpbridge capabilities would be one of the necessary facets.
In fact, you could go even further, and completely replace jumpbridges with player-built stargates instead... but more on the necessary limitations later.

The other aspect would be to significantly slow down the cross-universe travel speed of jumpdrive capable vessels (a dread SHOULD NOT be able to cross the entire galaxy map anywhere in the same order of magnitude for duration as a frigate warping to zero and using stargates).
A much more significant depletion of capacitor reserves when jumping combined with a short jump drive "spool-up" time (time in which the cyno needs to be KEPT LIT on the other side) and maybe even a temporary post-jump "debuff" on capacitor regeneration speed should do the trick quite nicely.
The larger the ship, the longer the spool-up time... so, for instance, carrier or dread could jump in 10 to 15 seconds, a supercarrier might need 20 to 30 seconds, a titan would need even up to a full minute, but a black ops could maybe jump with but a second or two (or even no spool-up), and a freighter with somewhere along the lines of 5 seconds. You know, very rough ballpark figures.

We need NOT JUST smaller-sized "farms and fields" (which frankly I doubt will do that much good), but on the other hand, what we DO need for sure is more of the larger stuff - in particular, PLAYER OWNED OUTPOSTS.
While there might be some coding limitations to one per solar system (are there any?), from a gameplay perspective they should no longer even figure into the sov fights so fiercely (let the TCU be the only thing left as far as that's concerned)... and let us place an outpost AT EVERY PLANET. In fact, let us place MULTIPLE outposts per planet.

And as far as "farms and fields" go, how about this : "asteroid attractor gravity well generators" placeable in asteroid belts to increase the ore respawn rates, "anomaly stabilizers" placeable near wormholes to increase maximum mass that can pass through and/or duration and/or even regenerate transit mass on an hourly basis, mini-POS-like structures (with no projected shield) that can be anchored ANYWHERE (especially near gates)... all of them player-manufactured AND the max allowable size of them determined by development indices (or even new IHub upgrades).


Also, back on the matter of player-operated stargates.
First, there would need to be a limit to stargates per system by having "unoccupied gravity resonance nodes" (that was the correct technobabble for it, right?) be the only place you could mount one, and there would also be a need to have a separate limit with regards to size of stargates allowed in each of them (which would determine their maximum connection range).
They would cost at least as much as an outpost (with similar build style), consume oodles of fuel while "onlined" as a main economic drawback, they are capable of being disabled through regular attacks as an additional economic drawback, would be able to be used by ANYBODY to jump through as the huge tactical drawback to the equally important tactical advantage of having them in the first place, with only a minor economic advantage, the ability to charge usage fees for passage (based on ship mass), with corp/alliance/blues determining discounts (and that's pretty much it, enemies just pay a tad bit more).

Each of the gates needs to select another gate of same size in its range as jump target, and AFTER DOWNTIME, _IF_ they match, they function much like a regular gate pair. Until either of them runs out of fuel. Or until either of them get damaged too much by enemy attacks.
Ownership change does not reset the link, it has to be manually severed, and it only happens at DT too.
Want it down now, SHOOT IT Twisted Evil

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.24 03:18:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 24/04/2011 03:18:57

OBVIOUSLY, most of the solar systems would only have one or at best two spots for small gates (lucky to even reach fully across a constellation) while some might have none, also not guaranteed to have any spots for a medium gate in many systems (to link between constellations), and very few systems per region would have a spot for large gates at all (to link across regions).

Also, back on the matter of wormhole stabilizers... the HIGHEST tier of it (available only with the best IHub upgrade) would be able to simply keep just the wormholes leading into wildspace from completely collapsing indefinitely... while also slowly restoring mass allowance, even if that might mean it can take quite a while to get any decently sized ship through.
Wormholes into normal space should be able to collapse even if you don't use them at all (at best, these structures just delaying the time to colapse).
In case the structure is destroyed while "stabilizing" the hole, the wormhole INSTANTLY CLOSES.

All those "farms and fields" structures would also consume some sort of fuel, and the wormhole stabilizing ones would consume MOST of it.
In wildspace, since you cannot claim sov, you can not anchor any of those stabilizing structures, so you have to keep defending "the other side" too, while also being most likely limited to a small trickle of mass (even forced to just use the pods most of the time and maintain two separate sets of ships on either side).

Twisted Evil

ehon
Posted - 2011.04.24 17:54:00 - [68]
 

if were adding structures why not a mining platform that a barge could anchor to so they could mine more safely. i mean by the platform offering a mild shield boost so system campers dont shut every thing down just cause.
one i was in null the number one killer of all indy activity was the long afk system camper. if a barge could tank a mild attack for a little bit while the main pvp force can respond to then many more would actually consider null mining to be worth will venture.

ehon
Posted - 2011.04.24 19:39:00 - [69]
 

i have done much mining in this game over time and i have done a decent amout of null mining. But i keep running in to the same short falls.

if im to haul for some one else i have to spend a around a half hour play with a calculator to see what the other guy mined to buy his ore. I believe if their was a hanger to auto purchased the ore going in to it at a set rate from the hanger's owner this would inspire group mining activities in high and null.

null is way to easy to shut down completely from on player in any unknown ship cloaked up chilling in local all day. i believe a mining platform that would supply a decent but weaker shield to those anchored to it. to counter its nice shield affects it could be made to burn a fuel say heavy water. it would function in a small part like a pos tower would take some anchoring and fuel to run can be left up like a pos. i believe no guns would be fine unless they feel the need for say 2 low in lasers to help with rats when no one is at the site while its left on over night.

im seeing alot of complaints that null cant be self supplied on their ores i really believe such a simple unit could be very use full. i have heard of some ideas in the past an chatter that a rorq or orca should move it around but im not sold on that idea. in the spirit of pos's i was thinking it could be a multi part structure that could be upgraded able. say adding more anchor points or some thin use for towards what a mining post could be.

im not sure if its a decent idea but say a HIGH end version that a large null operation may like i would say to add a refinery that could hit perfect refining and that it would refine the ore thats placed in its auto purchase hanger.

as i believe the future of pos's will be a single structure thats able to change shapes as diffrent modules are installed i believe that this mining platform could be made as the leader in this drastic rebuild of play held structures.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.24 19:42:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Akita T
First off, logistics (and I mean the "convoy of freighters" style) needs to make at least a partial comeback.


Yes, 0.0 EVE definitely needs more people spending hours on mind numbing tedium.

ehon
Posted - 2011.04.24 19:52:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Akita T
First off, logistics (and I mean the "convoy of freighters" style) needs to make at least a partial comeback.


Yes, 0.0 EVE definitely needs more people spending hours on mind numbing tedium.




get more accounts it will be a lot less boring

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.25 00:29:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Akita T
First off, logistics (and I mean the "convoy of freighters" style) needs to make at least a partial comeback.

Yes, 0.0 EVE definitely needs more people spending hours on mind numbing tedium.

Or, alternatively, 0.0 would need to become more self-sufficient TO AVOID the mind-numbing tedium of that Razz
And the potential proliferation of station plus the other stuff makes it more likely for people to come closer to self-sufficiency, since one of the main draws of highsec is the insane number of stations, and therefore S&I slots available. Importing skillbooks and blueprints sure doesn't need a freighter, if you could fit most of the needs for a few months of an entire region in a frigate easily. So that only leaves datacores and LP-purchased items as the remaining big draw of highsec.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.25 05:36:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Or, alternatively, 0.0 would need to become more self-sufficient TO AVOID the mind-numbing tedium of that Razz....

But, :effort:!

They have grown accustomed to living on microwave dinners and now loathe the idea of having to prepare a meal even though it is better for themselves and the community as a whole.

Two biggest hurdles that I can see are:
- Solving the mineral supply, without making people want to suicide out of boredom from mining.
- Increasing number of slots available for manufacture/research to actually meet the needs.

Sort those and everything else falls into place.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.04.25 08:26:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 25/04/2011 10:30:17
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Akita T
Or, alternatively, 0.0 would need to become more self-sufficient TO AVOID the mind-numbing tedium of that Razz....

But, :effort:!

They have grown accustomed to living on microwave dinners and now loathe the idea of having to prepare a meal even though it is better for themselves and the community as a whole.

Two biggest hurdles that I can see are:
- Solving the mineral supply, without making people want to suicide out of boredom from mining.
- Increasing number of slots available for manufacture/research to actually meet the needs.

Sort those and everything else falls into place.


If you remember, we had a discussion a couple of months ago that was exactly about this.
Link: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1463829

However, the original idea in that thread had a flaw that you solved very effectively. For now, everyone who would like to see what it's about, you can go to that thread and follow the discussion (one page only). I will post a well formatted and refined idea in this thread soon.

Coreano
Amarr
StarFleet Enterprises
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.04.25 08:49:00 - [75]
 

Give electronic attack ships a new role and game mechanic, allowing them to temporarily disable certain player resources (moon miners, station services, custom offices, etc) and even raid/steal resources. This will give a way to 'burn' the farms, aswell as raid them. Possibly prevent EAF from using cloaks to balance it. It will also give the EAF a new role, which would increase its usage.

As for a new type of 'farm'...CCP has mentioned planetary rings. Why not be able to set up mining colony's within the rings, and harvest their resources passivly, similar to the PI system. Mineral yields would depend upon the planet type and possibly true sec status, or industry level and upgrades in the IHUB. Would also be a new farm to burn with the EAF idea. Then again, low sec/NPC null sec corps would have an easier way to get minerals...steal it from somebody else. Would possibly increase PvP by forcing HD fleets to form more quickly or risk losing resources to a roaming gang.

As for keeping T2 production in null sec, perhaps a new discovery system for moons. New types of probes that could find a limited resource on moons. I dont forsee people placing POSs on moons just to snatch up so many units of moon goo and then moving it on when it runs dry, though. Perhaps it would be used on moons that already have POSs n them for other reasons? Not a great idea, but an idea none the less.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.04.25 10:29:00 - [76]
 

Personal Industrial Array - a Station Upgrade


Short description:
  • Introduce personal station "upgrade" modules, called Industrial Arrays, which will allow individual players to have their personal manufacturing slots in player owned stations. You need to pay the installation/maintenance fee to the owner, have sufficient standings with the station owner and have appropriate skill to use it.

About Industrial Arrays - bullet version:
  • - built from simple materials (minerals/PI stuff) - Why: t2 materials are too "touchy" and prone to be monopolized. This eliminates t2 material whines and can buff the PI market by increasing demand;

  • - Industrial Array gets a bit of damage every time it's used. Set it up that it would be completely useless and destroyed after some time of using it actively. An Array must then be replaced. - Why: boosts the economy, requires effort from users and regulates production cost.

  • - each Array creates 1 manufacturing slot for the owner. You can have maximum 11 Arrays active (limited by skill), to cover all manufacturing slots that a character can have;

  • - different Arrays for different types of manufacturing slots - much like current POS Assembly Arrays. Types of arrays that one can use are limited by the level of a new Industrial Arrays skill. You can even implement these Arrays so that they can not produce capital components and ships and leave that side of the production to POS-es only, to avoid buff to the capital/supercap spam;

  • - Industrial Arrays can have material modifiers that would make a balance when it comes to high to low end ore ratio.

  • - if station gets conquered by a hostile entity, the new owner can destroy your Arrays and you will lose materials and blueprints that were used in active manufacturing jobs;

  • - an anchor of Personal Industrial Arrays would be a new station service similar to fitting, cloning or other services. It could be made visible and vulnerable like any other station service. When it gets incapacitated, all active jobs will be paused until the service gets repaired.

Reasons behind the changes and detailed explanation:

Stuff in empire is cheap because of two main reasons: abundance of basic minerals (Trit, Pyerite, Mexallon,...) and availability of almost unlimited numbers of manufacturing slots in NPC stations. Until mining gets some kind of revolutionary fix, there will always be a shortage of basic minerals in nullsec, because, as we all know, no one moved to nullsec to mine Veldspar. Additionally, a limited amount of public manufacturing slots will become queued up if the production is forced to be done locally and even the most basic t1 stuff and ammo will be monopolized by the corporations that own the stations and have private manufacturing slots in them. It will also hurt the simple member of a corporation without sufficient roles to use those private slots and will make only a few people in the corporation very rich while everyone else suffers (that is not a good and healthy environment).

With Industral Arrays as upgrade modules in player owned stations, individual players will get the initiative to start their own manufacturing businesses. Combined with mineral modifiers, even the not-so rich/skilled players that can't fly/afford Rorquals/Jump Freighters can start contributing to the local production. This will result in more localised production, more stuff on the market and lower prices (slightly above empire) which will lead to more PvP, because when you always have cheap local stuff, there's no need to be afraid to go in small gang instead of waiting for a blob that makes you, as an individual, relatively safer.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.04.25 10:29:00 - [77]
 

Why should Industrial Arrays be damaged over time? The minimum cost per hour in an NPC station for a single manufacturing slot is 333 ISK. On a monthly level that's roughly 240,000 ISK + job installation cost of 1,000 ISK per job. (in Jita, for example, this is 807 ISK per hour or roughly 581k ISK). Industrial Arrays that last for a month could have a price tag between 250 and 600k ISK - enough space to make a difference between different types of Arrays without adding up to the cost of the final product. Additionally, when you install an Array of a certain type and you decide to "unplug" it from the station to fit another one, the unplugged Array will be destroyed. Manufacturing effectiveness will then depend only on player's capability to handle production and plan ahead.

Why material modifiers and not something else, like denser low-end ore versions? Because denser low-end ore versions will bring the biggest mining profitability nerf possible. Denser ore versions in deep 0.0 space will solve the low-end materials problem, but it will also make low-end minerals worthless and the highsec economy would collapse along with the mining profession.

By introducing carefully balanced material modifiers to Personal Industrial Arrays, we'll only have balanced modifications of high/low end mineral requirements without messing with the material supply. Players that have means of exporting high-end minerals from 0.0 space while still making profit would still export it. Players that have means of importing low end minerals from highsec while still making profit would still import it. But the most important part is that players that want to gather materials in 0.0 space and use it for local production, without depending on imported materials, would also have means to do it and profit from it, while not having to focus on mining Veldspar. Of course, since a system and whole economy of 0.0 space would change if these changes go live, I can only guess, and not predict for certain, that 0.0 population will be much more diverse than it is now and that there will be players that will focus on extraction of low end ore for profit even in 0.0 space.

Conclusion and effects:

If we want to boost local production in nullsec, drive the prices down and seed the market, because we want to have more small gang PvP in relatively cheap ships that you as an individual can afford to lose, give the ability to simple members of an alliance to contribute to the production and market seeding and see what happens. The only way to seed nullsec market with locally produced stuff is to give the initiative to simple members to contribute while avoiding corporate bureaucracy, adding personal effort and personal investment.

A healthy, well seeded market full with items that are produced locally with locally extracted ore will be beneficial to everyone. Small alliances that don't hold whole regions of space and multiple stations can again survive in 0.0 space if they have enough capable individuals that are willing to deal with the industrial side of the game. Players in large alliances will again (after leaving highsec to join the alliance) get the possibility to build stuff independent from the corporate bureaucracy that is present in the big alliances, mostly because of the valid security reasons. Additionally, small industrial oriented alliances will benefit from selling the goods to large PvP oriented alliances. Alliances will be much more careful who they blue, because bad blues would not be a threat only on the battlefield, but on the market too. Even alliances that are not internally strong enough will have a decent amount of failscade space, if free economy where every individual can compete on the market would make clashes in their member base. In one word, the political landscape of 0.0 space will become much more colorful and interesting, instead of current black-and-white landlord-pet picture with the dominant shoot-or-grind mentality.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain

Posted - 2011.04.25 12:32:00 - [78]
 

+1

Recursa Recursion
Posted - 2011.04.25 13:11:00 - [79]
 

Pretty sweet, the Personal Industry Array nicely covers the material and slot bottleneck as well as dodging the POS / slot access issue.

While it does not help with farming, you could blend it with something like the player-based Incursions.


David Hassan
Posted - 2011.04.25 13:24:00 - [80]
 

I think the dependence of Nullsec on Jita has less do do with a lack of local resources, and more to do with the armies of macro and slave miners in empire that produce cheap ore. You can already get upgraded belts in Conquerable null, PI prooduces POS fuels now, and moon goo is everywhere from lowsec to null. The problem with belts in 0.0 is that mining barges cost 200 mil and have negligible defensive capabilities. So a skilled purifier can make quick work of industrial workhorse ships.

If you want Farmers in null, then you need to elaborate on ship classes made to operate in deep space. When the pioneers went to the frontiers in the early days of the USA, they took or created the tools for the job. Even maw & paw's wagon train had rifles and blades handy.

Still, none of this will change market realities. If a bunch of 3rd world slaves will mine tritanium for almost nothing in empire, then nullsec players will never be bothered to produce it locally. The empire slaves can produce at the same rate with zero risk. Also, empire has more assembly lines availiable than even the best player built outpost. Nullsec has too many bottlenecks and risks to be competitive with the safe green pastures of empire space.

I'm also not too keen on bringing more farmers to null. The Great Anomaly Nerf only recently drove mobs of Sanctum Farmers away, and it is the best change I've seen to null in 2 years.

One possibilty that might work would be making the hauling of base ores undesireable. As it stands now you only need to fill a JF with 425mm railguns or something similar and cart it to any said supercap procuction area, refine and build. There is no incentive to produce locally when you can fit a super capitals worth of minerals in a rhea. This might have the added bonus of forcing power blocs to actually produce their own super cap blobs and curb the Nyx and Aeons Online trend we have seen since dominion. That could also have the downside of further reinforcing the drone RMT Supercapital production line which is already protected on 3 sides by Jumps too long to make with capitals. Any tampering with ore on this level would warrant a long hard look at drone regions drop rate and would probally warrant adding a region or two of npc null space between geminate and Kavela to allow capital movement.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.25 15:13:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: David Hassan
I think the dependence of Nullsec on Jita has less do do with a lack of local resources, and more to do with the armies of macro and slave miners in empire that produce cheap ore. You can already get upgraded belts in Conquerable null, PI prooduces POS fuels now, and moon goo is everywhere from lowsec to null. The problem with belts in 0.0 is that mining barges cost 200 mil and have negligible defensive capabilities. So a skilled purifier can make quick work of industrial workhorse ships.

If you want Farmers in null, then you need to elaborate on ship classes made to operate in deep space. When the pioneers went to the frontiers in the early days of the USA, they took or created the tools for the job. Even maw & paw's wagon train had rifles and blades handy.

Still, none of this will change market realities. If a bunch of 3rd world slaves will mine tritanium for almost nothing in empire, then nullsec players will never be bothered to produce it locally. The empire slaves can produce at the same rate with zero risk. Also, empire has more assembly lines availiable than even the best player built outpost. Nullsec has too many bottlenecks and risks to be competitive with the safe green pastures of empire space.

I'm also not too keen on bringing more farmers to null. The Great Anomaly Nerf only recently drove mobs of Sanctum Farmers away, and it is the best change I've seen to null in 2 years.

One possibilty that might work would be making the hauling of base ores undesireable. As it stands now you only need to fill a JF with 425mm railguns or something similar and cart it to any said supercap procuction area, refine and build. There is no incentive to produce locally when you can fit a super capitals worth of minerals in a rhea. This might have the added bonus of forcing power blocs to actually produce their own super cap blobs and curb the Nyx and Aeons Online trend we have seen since dominion. That could also have the downside of further reinforcing the drone RMT Supercapital production line which is already protected on 3 sides by Jumps too long to make with capitals. Any tampering with ore on this level would warrant a long hard look at drone regions drop rate and would probally warrant adding a region or two of npc null space between geminate and Kavela to allow capital movement.

Make it harder to haul and null buys less from high sec. That leads to mineral prices crashing in high sec. There is no incentive for them to stop mining ore until the market becomes over-filled with trit sell orders and collapses. There are no variable costs involved in mining in high sec, so this decision point never triggers.

Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.04.25 15:35:00 - [82]
 

A reprocessing nerf at null sec stations or a tax based on how many items have jumped thrue a gate over the last 48 hours seems the easiest way to go.

This would make the tranport of ore to jump freighters more interesting as mass before tax at the gates becomes another point of contention during null sec wars and another isk sink.

WH's if you find the right ones would allow a way to get around the tax.

Aidan Patrick
Aldebaran Foundation
Tauri Federation
Posted - 2011.04.25 15:39:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Aidan Patrick on 25/04/2011 17:00:40
Ok after reading the entire thread and seeing what others have said and combining it with my brief nullsec experience I have come up with my own thoughts on the matter.

First
I believe the fix depends heavily on Stations, Starbases(POS's) and Updating how they are handled. My beliefs on this are partly inspired by EVE lore.

The Lore Inspiration
Capsuleers are the pinnacle of New Eden's modern society. We are the elite. Our ISK, while each individual unit is insignificant, normal citizens of our galaxy revel at the value. Our currency is far more valuable than any local currency, peroid. This is why according to lore countless civilians will line up for jobs on a Capsuleer ship despite the extremely high risk of death.

NPC Corporations, and thus the Empires within Hi-Sec are not capsuleer based. They do not have the capability run operations that yield the same potential as much smaller capsuleer operations. As such, is it not a sound belief that an empire of Capsuleers would be far more productive and well off than an empire based off of "Normal" citizens? I believe so.

Stations
The changes I would like to see to stations are pretty small really; here is a quick bullet pointed list.
  • Remove perfect refining from NPC Stations. Instead require a POS (POS Refinery In Next Post) and perfect skills to do that task, or a null Outpost

  • Allow outpost Refineries to be upgraded to the point of fulfilling perfect refining like current NPC stations.

  • Allow Outposts to be upgradable to the point of having ~500 Research or Manufacturing Slots, but not high amounts of both.


As far as the refinery efficiency change is concerned, this would make mining any ore in nullsec much easier to refine than in hisec, reinforcing the Capsuleer <> Non-Capsuleer dichotomy. Put plain and simple, our s*** is better. Also a change like this means miners will be more inclined to mine in nullsec as it is easier to get higher profits from your work without max-skilling your character. This in turn means more mineral production, and possible exports from nullsec.

The suggestion for increased research & manufacturing slots is quite simply to help combat the fact that it is easier to produce in high-sec. The real solution to this problem, IMHO, is POS's.

Starbases (POS's)
I'll start this off with a simple fact; anyone who has lived out of a POS in their current state for any length of time has come to somewhat the same conclusion. They need drastic improvement. As such here is a list of improvements I would like to see to POS's.
  • Impliment the POS's Flogging the Dead Horse modulization of Starbases

  • Make the Starbases Dockable

  • Drastically Increase the Storage Capability

  • Everyone who docks gets a personal ship & item hangar that uses shared max M3 that is upgradable on the tower through more storage mods, providing increased personal security vs other members of the corp.

  • Corporate Hangars use the same M3 shared storage, but behave the same way as a corp hangar at an NPC station.


These changes to POS's would in effect turn them into mini-stations so to speak, except they will still lack the market, infinite storage, and invulnerability of their larger Outpost brethren. By providing the POS's with these changes you create, or rather enhance players existing ability to to live out of these facilities and be productive while enjoying themselves in what feels like a safe environment. (Let's face it, sitting in your ship next to a control tower when you're 'docked' feels kinda lame.

Also, a CCP dev did state at Fanfest that they want all kinds of structures to allow us to enjoy WiS. Eventually POS's will need to be reworked in order to allow this; what better method than to rework it with the goal of making null easier to industrialize.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.25 15:45:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Salpun
A reprocessing nerf at null sec stations or a tax based on how many items have jumped thrue a gate over the last 48 hours seems the easiest way to go.

This would make the tranport of ore to jump freighters more interesting as mass before tax at the gates becomes another point of contention during null sec wars and another isk sink.

WH's if you find the right ones would allow a way to get around the tax.

For what purpose? To reduce the PVP and thus players in null sec? It is hard to PVP if it is hard to find ships/fittings, which don't magically appear in outposts any more than they do in pirate stations.

There has to be a rational reason for players to mine low ends in null and there isn't one with your nerf. What your suggestion will do is increase the price of low end minerals in null sec and increase the price of high ends in high sec for no net benefit to anyone. If the nerf is severe enough, people won't haul minerals between null and high. High sec will starve of high ends and null sec will pay almost the same for low ends as high ends. Again, no net benefit.

Aidan Patrick
Aldebaran Foundation
Tauri Federation
Posted - 2011.04.25 15:49:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Aidan Patrick on 25/04/2011 15:56:51
Roles
Roles at POS's are currently a huge problem. If they were to change with the method mentioned in my previous post, a complete reworking of the roles system would no longer be needed. Though some roles do need a touch-up. Here are some changes I'd like to see with the roles, given the idea of dock-able starbases is implemented.
  • Allow the ability to "Based at" a corporation member to a Starbas, preventing the necessity to give blanket access to them all.

  • Allow Factory & Lab Slots deployed at a Starbase to be rented out on a Personal basis. (IE, "USe: Corporate" allows corp members to rent it personally while selecting "Alliance" lets any alliance members who can dock at your starbase use it. Setting it to "Official" allows only those with the appropriate rent factory & lab slot roles to use it, and only on behalf of the corp as it works currently.

  • Change Rent Factory/Lab Slot role to allow installation of a job on a corporate level. Removing the necessity for the Factory Manager Role.

  • Factory Manager - Quite simply this role after the above change would be used solely for it's assumed intended use of managing the factories. This role would allow the individual to monitor both corporate, and personal slot usage, and cancel or deliver jobs as needed.

  • Security Officer - In a starbase this role would allow you to remove items/ships out of a players personal hangar. As space is limited and the corporation owns the tower, this is required, IMO. Trust in your CEO and his delegated staff is implied in circustances like this.

  • Roles such as Security Officer & Factory Manager should be able to be set on a "Based At" level so administrators can be set for certain POS's.


Starbase (POS) Refining
Starbases should be capable of refining at perfect levels with max skills, in exchange for the convenience of getting perfect refine at a POS, the refinery takes time to process the ore. A million M3 for example could take 10 hours as a loose example.

Conclusion & Summary
Basically the changes mentioned for the stations, combined with those to POS's, and the roles used for them would allow for a massive degree of control and ability to delegate, which in a heavy industry corporation is extremely needed if everyone is to be able to do their jobs on a corporate and personal level. Adding these changes will allow for the use of these existing resources much more effectively when performing industrial operations in nullsec. This will also allow those corporations who wish to remain in hi-sec the ability to create their own homes and possibly even drive further conflict in hisec as moons will be more sought after, if for anything other than placing your hisec corps little slice of heaven.

Now that I have my view on industry sorted out.. let me get to the small gang warfare! . . .In a new post.

Scandal Caulker
Posted - 2011.04.25 16:08:00 - [86]
 

Reading this thread is very interesting. Being an outsider looking in I see everyone is complaining about minerals.

So..... To push industry into low and null sec the first easy step should be to:

Nerf all high sec refining yield heavily.
Low sec gets current rates.
Null gets "buffed" refining maybe from an upgrade.

Basically make moving minerals from High -> Null sec unprofitable
Moving Ore just to get a refining bonus would be risky and an utter pain (Ore is much bigger than minerals)

To prevent the module reprocessing exploit that you would see from this Module reprocessing will get no refining "buff" from reprocessing in null sec.

Would this not force some form of null sec industrialisation and combat empire mining bots?

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.04.25 16:49:00 - [87]
 

Is mineral compression a problem that needs to be fixed? Are jump bridges actually a mistake? Are nullsec logistics actually too easy?

What would the impact on nullsec industry be if we fixed POS roles and added a "Personal Hangar Array" giving individuals the ability to securely store things at a POS, with the ability to build from and deliver to personal hangars?

Would nullsec industry benefit from better refining through a POS refining/reprocessing structure that provides 30% base efficiency but responds to player skills and implants?

What would the impact on nullsec industry be if the Hulk was given double the current shield HP?


Aidan Patrick
Aldebaran Foundation
Tauri Federation
Posted - 2011.04.25 16:50:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Aidan Patrick on 25/04/2011 16:56:46
Edited by: Aidan Patrick on 25/04/2011 16:56:22
Encouraging Small Gangs to Roam Into Null
This is hard. Most people who haven't gone out to null and lived there, at least for a few days, are afraid of it. Why? Stories of power-blocs, massive blobs, etc. The reality is these things do happen, but a small gang is pretty much able to move freely with minimal resistance from what I've experienced recently.

Now I know this topic is extremely flammable around these parts, but my opinion on this, is that Local is the problem. Yes, I am a proprietor of Delayed local in Nullsec. I won't get into a debate on it, but I do want the CSM to see my reasons why I think local is a bad thing, and how it would help fix their proposed problem.

So here are a few reasons I think delayed local in nullsec is good:
  • Promotes picketing (def 4 & 5).

    • Picketing results in teamwork, which in an MMO is a good thing.

    • Picketing also results in combat pilots who want to PVP being stationed to protect industrialists who are mining being the front line when roaming gangs show up. Initiating small gang combat. Whilst combat is engaged, industrialists have time to flee to relative safety. This gives both sides of the PVP'ers what they want, a fight.

  • Promotes more wide-spread usage of the starmap and it's extremely large amount of delayed data. Yes, delayed is good, it means it's fallible. Perfect free intel is bad for gameplay.

  • Promotes fear and uncertainty when alone. Let's face it, despite there not being concord, null shouldn't feel safe unless you have friends to back you up.

  • Impedes Solo Work & Botting. While both of this will inevitably continue at an extent, a single player running a one man multi account mining op or even monitoring several bots in a system becomes a much riskier operation, and makes the botters cannon fodder for those at the keyboard. This is obviously a good thing. Anything to discourage automation!

  • Promotes use of wormholes as a method of bypassing pickets, and potentially gaining access to systems that are active. As with anything involving wormholes though, it's all about your luck, regardless of which side of it you're on.

  • Promotes Bottling - From what I saw in my brief stint in null, the player base is very spread out, everyone holding as much sov as they can and spreading out so everyone essentially has their own personal slice. Alliances and corporations would be more encouraged to "Bottle Up" as close together as possible to ensure pickets and security nets are more secure and response time of fleets is quicker when a hostile is spotted. The bottling in turn increases the ease of logistics when performing the industry work for an entire alliance. While it may still be required, you likely wouldn't need to go 7 jumps to get to the closest Outpost.

    Additionally this may prove to free up some space in null for newer corps and alliances to come bottle themselves up. Obviously new blood and additional space for people to take over is a good thing.


Now with all those reasons you obviously need something to give the defenders some sort of edge for living there. Obviously you can't defend a gate with a POS. You can however introduce deployable equipment such as mines, turrets and other fun stuff to make picketing and defending a system against small gangs more interesting. Assuming you have the ISK ofcourse.

My personal favorite is setting up a minefield around a stargate, any neutral or hostile that comes in has to safely scramble through it and whatever warp disruption bubbles you may have placed to prevent them from easily escaping it.

Basically my vision is to take away the free perfect intel, and use that as an excuse to add more toys to defend with. Oh, and if the attacker is wiley enough, they might just bring their own deployables! ;)


Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.25 16:58:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Make it harder to haul and null buys less from high sec. That leads to mineral prices crashing in high sec.....

And that would be bad because? Twisted Evil

If a majority of the low-end minerals peddled in high-sec is from bots (as claimed time and again) and the end goal of this whole exercise is to help null declare their independence from Jita domination, then who cares? (sorry Chribba, nothing personal Very Happy).

In the ideal world null production should reach a level where they become exporters and not just a black hole spitting out moon-goo when markets are favourable.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.25 18:15:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 25/04/2011 18:16:26
Originally by: Scandal Caulker
So..... To push industry into low and null sec the first easy step should be to:

Nerf all high sec refining yield heavily.
Low sec gets current rates.
Null gets "buffed" refining maybe from an upgrade.

The problem has more to do with the low end minerals in null sec. Basically, who in their right mind would mine veldspar in null sec when they could be mining crokite or arkonor? This would simply lead to an increase in high end supply, leading to noticeable price decreases for ship for a little while before supply and demand stabilize with fewer people mining in null. Really, that would be a harsh nerf to the drone regions and do little to convince people to mine low ends in null sec.

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Bagehi
Make it harder to haul and null buys less from high sec. That leads to mineral prices crashing in high sec.....

And that would be bad because? Twisted Evil

If a majority of the low-end minerals peddled in high-sec is from bots (as claimed time and again) and the end goal of this whole exercise is to help null declare their independence from Jita domination, then who cares? (sorry Chribba, nothing personal Very Happy).

In the ideal world null production should reach a level where they become exporters and not just a black hole spitting out moon-goo when markets are favourable.

It is great until you realize the massive market disruption associated with such a change. Unless you enjoy ninja mining high end resources, then doing the actual manufacturing of pretty much every single module and ship you use for a few months while the markets stabilize, I don't think you would like the results all that much. Even when they stabilize, there will be a lot more scarcity and higher prices for pretty much everything.


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