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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.04.19 23:07:00 - [31]
 


I don't think these suggestions create the small-gang targets null-sec needs.

The truth is, most PvE stops the moment a gang enters system. And rightfully so, as most PvE ships just aren't capable of fighting a small PvP gang. Besides, most gangs want fights, not ganks. So the real question is, how do you motivate the PvE members of nullsec to form up and fight the incoming gang? Atm, there is little motivation for the PvE'ers NOT to safe up and make some tea.

The dilemma of space farms/structures:
--Small gangs don't like shooting structures. What do they get for it?....
--If the structures are too destructible, PVE'ers wont use them.
--If they have too many hitpoints or are too defended, PvPers wont shoot them.
--If they are too easily repaired, PvEers wont defend them.

This is where my corp mate suggested an interesting new idea that builds on incursion mechanics.

Player Created Incursions -- basic gist, a deployable device that will create incursion effects in a system unless the defenders prevent it from onlining.

Ratters either defend their space, or deal with decreased bounties, resists, dps for the next day or so...
Link on Agony Website
Features & Ideas Link

Alias 6322A
Posted - 2011.04.19 23:37:00 - [32]
 

I'm not a resident of nullsec, but here's my two cents: I don't make raids into nullsec for the simple fact it isn't profitable. Unless you can catch a few loners off guard, nullsec mechanics are such that it isn't worth the time or money usually.

Farms and Fields are all good (I could care less if nullsec is self-sufficient, you'd think it would be), but nobody is going to bother attacking such resources except competing sov corps. If you want outsiders to try and cause havoc (small gang PvP, pirates, etc) there needs to be some form of income.

Interruption of I-Hubs...good idea for strategy, but again, only sovs will engage in this. I like it, but why not make the upgrades targetable and destructible - which allows them to be looted or salvaged in some way. Scenario: gang from low-sec or even high-sec decides to make a raid into nullsec on an ihub they think is vulnerable for the purposes of some big money (but with big risk). The upgrades should only require a small gang (5 pilots about) to destroy, but should have a safety feature such as warning the owner corp or having a failsafe shield that gives defenders potentially enough time to drive them off. Lazy corps will lose modules, on their toes corps will save them.

Ideas like this will encourage the use of cov ops ships (oh no! the black ops might have a use again if balanced) and add an additional element of risk/reward in nullsec that all players, large corp or not, can enjoy. Farms ought to be relatively easy to maintain, provided they are protected. This is the distant future, but apply basic warfare ideology: only critical structures were ever inside walls (POS) such as food storage, armory, and maybe a smithy to repair broken arms. Production itself was outside the walls usually, as well as non-important storage. They were vulnerable, true, but trying to build a wall large enough to encompass them was too expensive and left the wall under-powered. Use this ideology on POS and nullsec in general, and you'll see a lot more activity from non-nullsec residents.

BattleSister Oryx
Posted - 2011.04.19 23:38:00 - [33]
 

perhaps make deployable miners that players need to defend from other players (and rats too i guess)

Gives the defenders something to do, gives the attackers something to shoot down and at the same time players to kill and also provides a localised source of minerals for manufacturers that doesnt require players to mindlessly mine **** all day.

Give it a reasonable amount of hp so it cant be alphaed, but not enough that the defenders dont need remote rep support to keep it alive for the duration of the engagement. The rest can be worked out by game designers i guess

Bagdon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.20 08:47:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Bagdon on 20/04/2011 09:22:20
Edited by: Bagdon on 20/04/2011 08:55:30
Originally by: Crazy KSK
the things that keepb ppl from bulding stuffin 0.0 are:

first and most important it much too easy to haul stuff from empire jump bridges, and jump freighters make it very easy to haul things



No it's not and this is crap that gets repeated all the time by people who haven't looked at the map and done the math.

The problem is that there in only one conquerable 0.0 region that has more usable manufacturing slots than the system of Jita (two or three others come close). Go one jump from Jita and you're way over 1000 manufacturing slots. Go two jumps from Jita and you have more manufacturing slots than the whole of conquerable 0.0 taken together. The well-developed region of Deklein would need to use 70% of its production capacity 24/7 only to supply ammo for ratters in the region. If you want to provide T2 ammo to your fleets - a whole day of ammo production in every slot in Deklein can keep a Maelstrom fleet (lowest ammo consumption) shooting for six minutes.

If you make hauling from empire harder all it will do is to make people stage their invasion/defense fleets in empire and completely remove any need for any markets and production in 0.0 outside of supercaps and ratter ammo.

Recursa Recursion
Posted - 2011.04.20 16:23:00 - [35]
 

Damn straight Bagdon. It is not an option to use POS' as the access control in POS' pretty much prevents anyone but a trusted core from producing things at the POS.

I think the main issues for nullsec indy really boil down to copious amounts of manufacturing slots (non-POS) and local acquisition of low-end minerals. From the farmer perspective, the region-wide intel channels means that everyone safes up well before you ever get into system. Surprises don't happen often unless you awox or the other person is stupid and soon to no longer be in 0.0.

Outside of the slot issue, there needs to be a way to be able to locally source materials at a group level (small gang) while providing a plausible risk to the carebear gang from outside farmers looking to harvest carebear tears. Blob mechanics and responses being what they are (and highly unlikely to disappear), the small roaming gang needs to be able to hop in the system and out with a plausible chance of catching the indy-oriented crew.

W-space would seem to be the best way to make this work. A few meta comments related to that:

- Mineral compression has always seemed borked. Inevitably what you get now is that you pay somebody in Empire (usually Kazuo) to gather the mins and compress them. Your alliance JF logistics get your supplies out (2 JF for a super carrier). Somebody in high command then does your mineral reprocessing (to avoid the station fee). You then run crap tons of freighter loads with the uncompressed minerals to your POS.

While there is a bit of geek appeal in fine tuning the compression, this has always seemed like a half-assed way of doing it. Why not add in explicit support for compression via the ingot concept (compression levels on par with what a Rorq does for ore)? Heck, run it through the Rorq or something to add excitement and keep it low-sec and below. Make it such that an ingot works as input to the manufacturing job and you don't have to decompress it. You also dodge the high command truffle shuffle of decompression. Make it so that partially used ingots get wasted or something still giving a bit of geekery for the high end builders.

- Balance a bit of risk versus reward by making sleeper sites (or something new) that drop tons of ingots for low ends. Thus, if you want lots of low ends, turn your wormhole array up to 11 to give better sleeper site outlets. The wormhole in turn gives the ability of external roamers to dart in without tripping your region intel safety channel 5 jumps out. By tons, I am thinking about a half to a full carrier worth or something dropping in ingots of the Trit, Pyer, or Mex. Shoot for a ballpark of half an hour to an hour for the site.

Alternatively or in addition, throw said sites into low sec to give carebear groups a reason to wander out. Or, take said site and include it as part of the industrial level. Raiding said sites and taking ingots works on your indy level. Include amazing amounts of scram, neuts, and all sorts of typical Level 5 mission fun. Basically, try to make it that if a roaming game comes calling, your chances of insta-warping out is quite low (*cough* logoffski *cough*). Make NPCs bubble for extra awesome sauce.

The key is to balance risk versus reward. Make said sites also non-soloable to keep the group focus, think Incursion level types of difficulty but yet almost do-able with two carriers for the stupid. Make it extremely tempting for folks to take out caps for juicy stupid cap kills :) Hell, give dreads a purpose related related to it (pop a central vault) and kill two birds with one stone.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.20 16:46:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 20/04/2011 16:47:16
Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite
I don't think these suggestions create the small-gang targets null-sec needs.

Mine does. Add hauler spawns to the anom sites. PVE-ers shoot up hauler spawn, but would spend a lot of time in vulnerable industrial ships bringing the minerals/ore back to a station. This increases juicy target traffic dramatically for small gang warfare. It also improves the independence of null sec from high sec minerals. It also returns the flow of isk in null sec that dropped with the anom changes.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.04.20 19:28:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Bagehi

..increase hauler spawns....



There is a problem when people get more minerals from ratting than they do mining. But increasing hauler spawns to increase the acquisition of low-end minerals in nullsec sounds is good as long as you don't violate this principle.

To enhance synergy, the hauler spawn rate should increase with the industry level.

Originally by: Recursa Recursion

Why not add in explicit support for compression via the ingot concept (compression levels on par with what a Rorq does for ore)?



I really like the idea of using the rorqual to create a manufacturing ready ingot. Perhaps give POS's a bonus to PE when using ingot too. Formalize it, as Module mineral compression just seems like cheating to me.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.20 19:43:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 20/04/2011 19:44:31
Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite
Originally by: Bagehi

..increase hauler spawns....



There is a problem when people get more minerals from ratting than they do mining. But increasing hauler spawns to increase the acquisition of low-end minerals in nullsec sounds is good as long as you don't violate this principle.

To enhance synergy, the hauler spawn rate should increase with the industry level.

People mine on their own for their own income in null sec? And aren't bots? I am suggesting hauler spawn anoms, not just increasing the generic hauler spawns in belts.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.04.20 21:28:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Bagehi

People mine on their own for their own income in null sec? And aren't bots? I am suggesting hauler spawn anoms, not just increasing the generic hauler spawns in belts.



Drakes should not out-mine hulks.... And gathering minerals at a despawned anomaly after ratting ships cleared it out is a little tooo risk-free.

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.20 21:37:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
People mine on their own for their own income in null sec? And aren't bots?I am suggesting hauler spawn anoms, not just increasing the generic hauler spawns in belts.


"mining through ratting" is one of the major imbalances in the current PvE system, I really don't think it needs to be encouraged further (quite the opposite).

The primary method of acquiring minerals in EVE should be through mining (since that's all you get from mining), not as a by-product of a rival PvE activity. Of course, at the same time mining needs to be made not so 1-dimensional and unbearably tedious - not least because things that are 1-dimensional and unbearably tedious become prime targets for botting.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.20 22:45:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Is the possibility of nerfing the **** out of highsec industry at the same time as buffing nullsec industry likely to be on the table here?


I hope so. The prime source of minerals should always come from mining. I strongly believe the mechanic of refining/reprocessing (which ever one people use to take a module and turn it into minerals, not the one that is used to turn ore into minerals) needs to get the nerf bat in an extreme way.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.04.20 23:38:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Glyken Touchon on 20/04/2011 23:55:20
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Bagehi
People mine on their own for their own income in null sec? And aren't bots?I am suggesting hauler spawn anoms, not just increasing the generic hauler spawns in belts.


"mining through ratting" is one of the major imbalances in the current PvE system, I really don't think it needs to be encouraged further (quite the opposite).

The primary method of acquiring minerals in EVE should be through mining (since that's all you get from mining), not as a by-product of a rival PvE activity. Of course, at the same time mining needs to be made not so 1-dimensional and unbearably tedious - not least because things that are 1-dimensional and unbearably tedious become prime targets for botting.

one way of doing this is to nerf the reprocessing efficiencies significantly in all systems/stations (bye bye 100% refine), but boost ore mineral content to compensate. This will make module mineral compression & loot reprocessing less viable, and encourage local sourcing through mining. Perfect standings & skills in the best refinery should still only give 90% efficiency IMO.


With regard to burning the fields, if Ihub upgrade levels were targettable substructures on the hub itself (so a level 3 entrapment array would have 3 antenna models to target for example), then smaller forces could interfere with (rather than conquer) the system.
Maybe have them so that they can only be deactivated (rather than destroyed) while the Ihub is intact, so they can be repped up once the guerillas have left/been dealt with.

edit: adding another industry upgrade type that reduced assemby array fitting reqs per level (or similar) would help too.

late here, so I might come up with more random ideas by tomorrow, or realise that these are bad.

Recursa Recursion
Posted - 2011.04.21 03:53:00 - [43]
 

With all of the Ihub magic though, you have to ask, what makes it worthwhile for the system users to band up a fleet and fight? The frustrating part for the farmers is that once you get anywhere close to targets due to alliance / coalition intel channels, they all dock up. The only ones you catch are the supremely idiotic. Fun everyone once in a while as those tend to be juicy but very, very spotty. There has to be a mechanism like the Agony proposal that makes it worthwhile to respond early, quickly with a sub-optimal fleet.

Anything IHub based is just going to devolve into blue ball, wait, undock carrier, repair, rinse and repeat. The optimal strategy is to blue ball because there is not a huge loss if one waits. The alternative is endless grief from high command if the pitchfork ends badly (which it usually does). The circle of life then continues with large amounts of docking / POS'ing up until folks stop roaming the area.

Moreover, what incentive does a roaming gang have besides a bit of grief? AFK cloakers do that job just as well. It would be nice if farming null sec was not a lotto and you could have some sort of reasonable expectation of a fight ala faction warfare.

On the mining front, I agree that it should come from mining but with the caveat that it is a lot easier for folks to scale to X miners than to scale to X PvE toons (ignoring bots). Tie it to the comets or whatever CCP was dreaming up a while back. Toss in a new strip laser and add new ore that yields that tons and tons of low end materials.

The never a perfect refine scenario is interesting. Two other options would be to (1) tweak the reprocess results ala T2 BPO / BPCs to not yield the original inputs or (2) eliminate compression by never allowing a reprocess to yield more volume than its perfect input (scale by X%). The second idea would be craptacular though without sufficient warning and some way else to source low ends in quantity.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.04.21 07:02:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 21/04/2011 07:02:47
Minerals:
- Hauler spawns dropping raw minerals and extra high yield scrap.
- Mining as current but with mining bonus added to prospecting arrays (think static command bonus).
- Belt Stripper (no, not that kind of stripper silly!).
* Dumb (ie. no attack/defence) automated (not targeted by NPCs) mining facility that spits out jet-cans as it goes through a belt, yield pretty low compared to actual mining.
Technology adapted from rogue drones (art department will love adding bits and pieces to human tech I think Smile).
* Has to be manually deployed to a belt and activated (think online/anchor). Requires fuel of some sort?.
* Relatively low EHP but indestructible (see below). Goes dormant when wrecked (reinforced) and auto-repairs after 12-18 hours.
* Needs to be reactivated after auto-repair. Failure to do so in X hours allows remnants of rogue drone AI to take over and it 'morphs' into a rogue drone proper.

Production:
- More assembly lines/slots in general.
- Material efficiency upgrades, ie. modifies ME of print when built in station with upgrade (ninja-boost to null invention efforts as well as base manufacture).

Errm, and that's it for me I think.
Originally by: Glyken Touchon
one way of doing this is to nerf the reprocessing efficiencies...

Much easier to expand on the last loot nerf.
- Named modules cannot be built so their reproc values can be tanked with no ill side-effects.
- Unnamed modules should all have size increases to be really unwieldy.
- Bonus: Faction modules should have a significant increase in reproc value. Makes the 'trash drops' less trashy while increasing overall mineral supply.

Sir Drake
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.21 07:14:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Crazy KSK
the things that keepb ppl from bulding stuffin 0.0 are:

first and most important it much too easy to haul stuff from empire jump bridges, and jump freighters make it very easy to haul things
(site note: super capital esp super carrier building is often done via reprocessing carriers which speed up the process as one carrier can give the parts you would need 3 runs with a jump freighter)

second: its harder to get production slots etc in null sec also refining ore is harder you need to run poses for all that which is a lot of work


so the solution would be something like removing jump bridges spread the null sec systems apart (light year wise)so it rakes more jumps to get through to your destination also maybe make it easier to catch ships jumping

all just some vague stuff pointing in the direction I think the problem lies


+1
Its just too easy getting all the stuff needed from empire.
Boosting local 0.0 production can only be achieved by making outside resources harder to get.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.21 09:43:00 - [46]
 

Make sov activity based...

Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 20/04/2011 16:47:16
Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite
I don't think these suggestions create the small-gang targets null-sec needs.

Mine does. Add hauler spawns to the anom sites. PVE-ers shoot up hauler spawn, but would spend a lot of time in vulnerable industrial ships bringing the minerals/ore back to a station. This increases juicy target traffic dramatically for small gang warfare. It also improves the independence of null sec from high sec minerals. It also returns the flow of isk in null sec that dropped with the anom changes.


No in theory it increases the chance you get a completely one-sided gank with a mineral drop that you cant move yourself anyway. Small gang warfare != shooting ships that cannot shoot back.

Of course in practise you move it directly to either a station or a POS, and from there further with (jump) freighters. No point in suiciding industrials as form of small gang pvp.



People dock up as soon as there is a red in local because it is beyond ******ed to not dock up (well or at least allign out). PVE ship against PVP ship is suicidal. Volunteerly doing PVE ship + 700 dps or so from anomaly vs pvp ship(s) is full ******.

I am personally all for a system where sov is not based on blobbing a few timers, activity based sov is still imo the best idea (who actually lives in a system gets sov, with some other stuff to make it a bit more fun for also those who want larger fights). That will create small gang fights, but no it does not give a roaming gang the capability of disrupting sov or something like that, and it shouldnt imo, the more you boost the pillaging kind of ability in eve the more people will be forced to blob to counter that.

Guilliman R
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.04.21 09:53:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Guilliman R on 21/04/2011 09:54:53
I'm still for adding small anchorable structures (in belts, on planets, on the sun!) that have relatively low hp so a gang can harass it. Should have one timer of no more then 1h to allow defenders to assist.

Upon destruction it could drop fancy loot or other stuff that was needed to build it.

The structures if intact would give bonuses to the planet, sun, belts. Like more ore/faster respawns in belts. The structure on the sun could provide a reduction in pos fuel cost system wide (harvesting the energy of the sun!). The buildings near the planet could provide bonuses to pi or w/e.

The buildings could also be temporary disabled by hacking modules and skill, and repaired (put back online) by science skilled people. (hacking would give some of the mods needed to build that can be sold on the market and repairing should require mods or minerals or so)

They should cost a few hundred mill but no more, this way the attacker can get rich from destroying them, they'll cost too much to put in every 0.0 system and cost enough to want to defend it.


Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.21 12:28:00 - [48]
 

And you just boosted blobbing and forced people even more to create huge powerblocks.

Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.04.21 14:27:00 - [49]
 

Let the industry upgrade tweak the moon content in the systems. When it reaches level 1+ some of the useless moons will all of a sudden contain a few random non local minerals. The higher the index, the better the minerals.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.21 14:41:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 21/04/2011 14:41:40
Originally by: Sir Drake
+1
Its just too easy getting all the stuff needed from empire.
Boosting local 0.0 production can only be achieved by making outside resources harder to get.

Back to this idea? Then we're back to "why should an industrial player move to null sec?" Because, short bot mining and super cap construction, the reasons are pretty minimal. That problem would spiral outward and end up with very few ships/modules for sale in null sec and rather high prices for them, thus constraining PVP. I'm out here to PVP, but I'm not short sighted enough to miss the fact that modules and ships don't magically appear on the market. You have to solve the industrial situation if you want to remove bridges.

Recursa Recursion
Posted - 2011.04.21 15:24:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 21/04/2011 14:41:40
Originally by: Sir Drake
+1
Its just too easy getting all the stuff needed from empire.
Boosting local 0.0 production can only be achieved by making outside resources harder to get.

Back to this idea? Then we're back to "why should an industrial player move to null sec?" Because, short bot mining and super cap construction, the reasons are pretty minimal. That problem would spiral outward and end up with very few ships/modules for sale in null sec and rather high prices for them, thus constraining PVP. I'm out here to PVP, but I'm not short sighted enough to miss the fact that modules and ships don't magically appear on the market. You have to solve the industrial situation if you want to remove bridges.



Seriously, to folks that say logistics should be harder, have you actually run logistics to 0.0? Not, zomg, this one time in band camp, we ran a freighter with a huge escort and it hella scary. Real sustained logistics, i.e. supporting a corp or alliance for months. It is barely palatable as it is and is one of the worst activities in EVE. But it has to be done and the pew pew (both inter-alliance and your roaming gang getting targets) relies on it getting done.

Folks would gladly give up getting stuff from Jita if it could be sourced locally at anywhere near a reasonable premium of cost, time, and / or risk. Manufacturing slot access is fundamentally critical as it opens the floodgates for the average industrialist (i.e not those of us who build supercaps) to flood the market with said ammo, T1 ships, and modules. Slot access could be alleviated if POS access roles were fixed. POS access roles would be preferred due to the tastiness of destruction but that revamp is probably not happening any time soon. Slot access might increase farmability due to lower cost / greater availability of goods but probably not by a significant amount.

Your best opportunity is to address the supply / farming issue in some sort of a combined solution. Give the ability to reasonably locally source (reasonable, not sourcing a supercap). Make said new sites reasonably pinnable in terms of avoiding logoffski / insta-warps where you are trapped for periods approaching say a siege or triage cycle to give a roaming gang a chance to actually get them without having to log nearby in space the prior day.

A couple of examples:
- Make new ore type(s) with WTF levels of low-ends that has a chance to spawn a warp bubble with a 1-3 minute duration (think Mercoxit but without the stupid geyser). Put said ore type in belts for easy scanning / location.
- Create new w-space (Class 6) with copious amounts of low end ore (bonus to ore yield as part of the anomaly bonus) and another link to null sec.

If you give your average industrialist access to slots to build things and the ability to locally source it at a reasonable risk, the roaming gangs will get those juicy targets they want. Heighten with something like the Agony thing and voila, small gang awesome-sauce.


Dunkler Imperator
N.F.H.P.
Eternal Evocations
Posted - 2011.04.21 15:56:00 - [52]
 

so here's an idea

Mining is boring and risky in null right?
and alot of people don't have the time or even want to rat.
Small gangs need something they can shoot that will drop something they want.

So my idea

Deployable "Mines" in Null roid belts.

Simple concept Uses Pi stuff to build a structure. The structure can be deployed In sov 2+ space. Two tiers one that just mines(cheaper) and one that also refines.

It will gather minerals as long as it's online it requires PI fuel and or ice fuel.

has some decent health so 1 or 2 will take awhile to kill it but a gang of 6 can get it in a few mins. It drops PI + whatever is stored in it at the time for the looters.

The mining deployable grabs what ever roids are in the belt. and mines a bit of everything.

So what this will do is Give more Independence from jita,
Give the people with less time more passive income
Give small gangs a way to burn something and grab some loot to boot.
Make mining less boring by not doing it at all.

Keep in mine (pun) this thing should not out mine a retriever and should fill up after x amount of hours.


also: when dust comes out you should be able to "Steal" the structure.



just an idea

Time Funnel
Posted - 2011.04.21 17:05:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Time Funnel on 21/04/2011 17:25:57
Edited by: Time Funnel on 21/04/2011 17:09:52
Industrialization (IMO) is limited in 0.0 for the following reasons:

Availability of slots, as previously mentioned.

Availability of low-ends in 0.0 Empire botting miners supply low ends to EVE at low prices. There is no incentive to put a mining ship in a belt in 0.0 for low-ends. Hauler spawns, drone/NPC drops, and ? provide building material. Some balance of the risk/reward with respect to low-ends.

Availability of T2 components in 0.0 is pretty much non-existant and needs to be imported. Perhaps there could be an alternative source of T2 components based on missions or anomolies or something.

Regional T2 inputs. As soon as you overly regionalize various materials what you create is a Jita market. That means everyone hauls their crap to Jita. Solution? In my mind the best solution is using PI on moons to extract moon goo and get rid of the POS miners. Have regeneration randomized so that new sources of moon goo appear all over new eden. There can be biases based on regions, but having the good moon goo wander around all the moons in all the regions will break the Tech monopoly and prevent future ones. It will also be attackable via small gangs and DUST.

I feel that randomization on regeneration should be applied to asteroids too. I also feel that high end minerals should be found in low-sec (in smaller quantities) as it is almost more dangerous to mine in low-sec that 0.0.

It has always been my opinion that there should be a strip of low-sec between the major factions to break the Jita monopoly and create 4 market hubs.

In summary, moving moon mining to PI, spreading high end moon materials and minerals around all areas (in a somewhat biased fashion) and create a good risk/reward for 0.0 low-end minerals could create a self-sufficient 0.0 community with little or no ties to empire.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.04.21 18:41:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Time Funnel

In summary, moving moon mining to PI, spreading high end moon materials and minerals around all areas (in a somewhat biased fashion) and create a good risk/reward for 0.0 low-end minerals could create a self-sufficient 0.0 community with little or no ties to empire.


Another recent post in F&I's was to allow the creation of datacores via PI. I thought it appropriate to post it here too.... R&D on Planets

Moving moon-goo entirely to PI would improve null-sec industry, but its impact needs to be carefully looked at. It might be better to have both PI-goo and Moon-goo.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.21 20:43:00 - [55]
 

Add rewards for "burning the crops" like salvagable mods that have been destroyed during a raid.

Shivus Tao
Minmatar
Broski Enterprises
Elite Space Guild
Posted - 2011.04.21 21:17:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Edited by: Bagehi on 21/04/2011 14:41:40
Originally by: Sir Drake
+1
Its just too easy getting all the stuff needed from empire.
Boosting local 0.0 production can only be achieved by making outside resources harder to get.

Back to this idea? Then we're back to "why should an industrial player move to null sec?" Because, short bot mining and super cap construction, the reasons are pretty minimal. That problem would spiral outward and end up with very few ships/modules for sale in null sec and rather high prices for them, thus constraining PVP. I'm out here to PVP, but I'm not short sighted enough to miss the fact that modules and ships don't magically appear on the market. You have to solve the industrial situation if you want to remove bridges.



Pretty much the people advocating jump bridge removal have no clue on the dynamics of 0.0 alliances. Most of us hate being reliant on Jita but nulsec industry isn't sustainable. Going along with the anom changes ccp introduced, industrial hubs could be further adjusted with modifications to increase mining amount/other industry bonuses along with a module capacity limit on I-hubs leading to specialized systems rather than every system has everything. In this way, the systems with bad truesec that anom runners no longer care about could be specialized for industry, and if these modules were disruptable, could force a need to defend them otherwise risk the industry in the system being significantly hindered.

Sir Drake
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.21 22:42:00 - [57]
 

Well, lets ask the other way around, how many ppl would you be able to support with only local production capabilities atm?
No offense but maybe you are just too many for the enviroment you live in if it wasnt for easy access to empire.


Stern Kyrenov
Executive Intervention
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2011.04.22 01:36:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Halycon Gamma
Change gravimetric sites to where players can build structures inside them.


I think this is the only idea I've read so far that is remotely interesting. Make grav sites into super mineral extracting/production zones. How this will be done, I don't know, (as the CSM has repeatedly said, CCP does not want specifics and micro level suggestions) so doing something with grav sites and thus the mineral index already in place, something could be done.


ehon
Posted - 2011.04.22 01:45:00 - [59]
 

the high sec or kinds in null, i agree suck since theirs less risk in high sec but to believe their no high sec risk is a full lie to your self. a good way to fix is bigger or just more of them or make a forth variant of the ore and let it be a 10% more density as that would be sufficient to bump it up several levels of value.

and jump bridges should get longer ranges, player pays on the spot for its use, and be able to select their destination as this aids in the dream ccp has which is large fights and many ship go boom.

another way to make null mining work easier and to make a better mining barge as the current ones suck

Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Industry and Investments
Posted - 2011.04.22 01:50:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Doctor Invictus on 22/04/2011 01:58:20
Edited by: Doctor Invictus on 22/04/2011 01:50:34

Originally by: Doctor Invictus
I have a whole giant proposal on nullsec reform over at F&I on this topic (industrialization, small gangs, everything else). Where's my X-Prize from CCP? Razz


I guess I should probably outline it, for those that don't want to read the whole massive thing.

  • Remove all arbitrary/non-financial caps on infrastructure development in nullsec (i.e., allow for heavy concentrations of infrastructure)


  • Nerf hi-sec industrial capacity, such that highly developed areas of nullsec can at least theoretically compete or even exceed it


  • Allow for private stargate construction, enabling transit efficiency maximization (possibly paired with removal of jump bridges, if in the works anyways)


  • Lower the scale of sovereignty so that there are more claimable units


  • Rework the index system to better target activity incentives


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