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The Mittani
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.18 23:05:00 - [1]

In May, we'll be discussing methods of improving Nullsec Industrialization with CCP at the CCP/CSM summit. In this thread, we welcome the community to offer advice and counsel.

The Farms and Fields topic, making Nullsec less dependent on Jita for everything, providing farms and fields for small-gang targets beyond sov structures. This may degenerate into a 'for gods sakes implement the missing Dominion features' discussion.

This is something which we discussed at the Fanfest roundtables at length; right now Nullsec is entirely dependent on importing virtually everything from Jita, and exports only moon goo. Meanwhile, nonsov small-gang entities can only 'contest' the empires through the sov system, which does not interest them. Industrialization would provide both 'crops' to grow in nullsec, and provide targets for smaller entities to set on fire to make life miserable for empires beyond TCUs.

Crazy KSK
Posted - 2011.04.18 23:55:00 - [2]

the things that keepb ppl from bulding stuffin 0.0 are:

first and most important it much too easy to haul stuff from empire jump bridges, and jump freighters make it very easy to haul things
(site note: super capital esp super carrier building is often done via reprocessing carriers which speed up the process as one carrier can give the parts you would need 3 runs with a jump freighter)

second: its harder to get production slots etc in null sec also refining ore is harder you need to run poses for all that which is a lot of work

so the solution would be something like removing jump bridges spread the null sec systems apart (light year wise)so it rakes more jumps to get through to your destination also maybe make it easier to catch ships jumping

all just some vague stuff pointing in the direction I think the problem lies

Ordo GArr
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.04.18 23:55:00 - [3]

Current Issues: Mining sucks and is boring and not that profitable in nullsec, so it's easier for me to buy stuff in jita, compress it into guns/ammo and then JF it out, I can fit a supercap into 2 JFs. If there was a better way of getting minerals in nullsec (maybe nullsec mining should have a better mineral breakdown and be like 10x as profitable as it is now or something), I might not have to do this.

Also, a major issue is the availability of factory slots. Empire is so chock full of factory slots it's ******ed, and since you can only have 1 outpost/station per system it really sucks. Alliances should be able to have multiple outposts per system and amarr stations should possibly get an extra 10 base slots, with minmatar, gallente and caldar gaining another few slots per.

Mashie Saldana
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.04.19 00:35:00 - [4]

Originally by: Ordo GArr
Current Issues: Mining sucks and is boring and not that profitable in nullsec, so it's easier for me to buy stuff in jita, compress it into guns/ammo and then JF it out, I can fit a supercap into 2 JFs. If there was a better way of getting minerals in nullsec (maybe nullsec mining should have a better mineral breakdown and be like 10x as profitable as it is now or something), I might not have to do this.

In CCP speak this means disable reprocessing of Meta 0 items. Laughing

But yes, if the low end minerals could be levelled up in units/m3 to compete with ABC for profit it would hopefully get mined locally.

Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.19 00:49:00 - [5]

Kill the Static Jump Networks and make outposts upgradeable to station standards.

Forumena Altair
Posted - 2011.04.19 03:06:00 - [6]

How about this for burning crops and fields.

Allow small gangs the ability to incapacitate I-Hub upgrades.

Make the upgrades target-able like station services (with way less HP of course), so small groups can have large effects on the residents of that system. By doing so they could for example stymie anomaly income or interrupt Super Cap construction. Or break key legs in a jump bride network.

If the HP was low enough for small groups to incapacitate it would also be easy for the residents rep as well. Which will allow more opportunities for PvP.

In my mind, more goals for small groups means more conflict and for the residents it means more conflict (or headaches depending on your perspective). And more conflict is good for everybody in EVE.

Marconus Orion
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.19 09:36:00 - [7]

What I would hate to see is things that are basically something with X amount of hit points so blobbing it is the most effective way of doing the burning of the crops and fields. I also would like it where the industrialist could somehow grow these things in a way to maybe cater a bit towards a home field advantage. Maybe like a script or something that changes the aspects of the grid it is on.

Example not to be taken super serious on specifics but hopefully you get the idea:

You got some guys who want to mine/farm/whatever bears do with industrial **** and when they go to plant it, they put in a script that nerfs remote repair **** and boosts local reps or increases speed but reduces lock range or something. Make it dynamic. Also if they ignore the raiders and the raiders are able to burn the field (which can grow back or whatever, just don't want to see something being permanently destroyed) then maybe the associated resource or category it is related to is not as profitable.

Anyone get the vibe of that?

Posted - 2011.04.19 11:31:00 - [8]

First - don't let this be hijacked into another JB / Distance thread. Stick that where the sun doesn't shine. You got the true sec 0.0 nerf you freakin carebear so stfu. Go inhabit some abandoned renter system.

Moving on to the OP

Two sepearate questions, where one solution is not necessarily going to get you there. If you want a response on the first half, in my opinion your problems come down to refining in null sec and availability of empire minerals. The former might be addressed by a more competitive / functional refining array for POS, refining at a POS is LOL. The folks that have refining stations in system will continue to use them, Youíre Alliance HC (all alliance HCís for that matter) will probably steer you away from this because they will fear that youíll get less income from the refining taxes, so we can just pretend I never brought this up. But if they have half a brain, theyíre probably realizing the true null sec nerf is going to cost them a good chunk of renter business and they might be able to get more mining folks to take up some space.

The latter could be addressed by increasing the volume of empire minerals available in null sec. Honestly, you just donít have enough low end rocks to be free null sec players from the empire markets even if you have a solid industry division. Thereís no possible way youíre going to be able to pull up enough trit / mex / pye / iso to sustain a corp or alliance. We sell our high ends in empire and get our low ends via compression. Mind you I donít necessarily think you will ever be able to do it and I donít think youíre trying to get to total disconnect but more self sufficiency. That being said, stations arenít broken, POS for construction are working as intended. CCP could implement a pretty descent fix ( and in their eyes, descent usually means ďcheapĒ) by jacking up the size of the empire rocks null sec. Donít jack em up in Grav Sites, make the PVP folks happy, jack em up in belts instead. The other alternative is dramatically increase the Hauler spawn rates. Another cheap fix for CCP, something quick and easy so they can go back to doing stuff like walking in stations, the stuff most of us donít care about.

Last, youíre asking two very distinct questions which in reality only have a chance at creating a single solution. If youíre going to try to solve for X, try creating two separate threads and evaluating responses to see if there is an overlap. Enjoy your giant threadnaught that will probably accomplish nothing.

Guilliman R
Northstar Cabal
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.04.19 11:39:00 - [9]

Using hacking skill and maybe new skills you could make it so small gangs/individual saboteurs can cripple the crops and fields for a small amount of time, or until someone with other science skills comes along to repair the damage.

Ronan Connor
Posted - 2011.04.19 12:19:00 - [10]

I havent been much to nullsec, but still some ideas might be useful.

1. Get those ore faction tower or better get ore faction versions of refining arrays. Those arrays shall be fueled like the tower and are self dependent on cpu and power. Production arrays working the same way could help getting more production slots.

2. Provide a pass-key for a free passage trading run. I.E. you ask an alliance whether you enter once to fly to an npc station and back to high sec. You'll be set for 24 hrs to blue. The pass key cost you a small fee measured on a collateral the alliance pays. The collateral will be a protection that no one who is blue to you can shoot you without the consequences as you pay for a free passage. Those pass key's should be pre-defineable and transferable. So a courier contract in jita could provide a free passage as well. The pass key could either work for the blue territory or for blue members. My favorite is the territory as the alliance would then be responsible for your safety.

3. Next to moon mining it should be possible to use a moon to provide ore's as well. A skill similar like pi could be interesting. You scan a moon for places of certain ore concentrations. The better the skill the better you can scan for ore (I think to use the pi skill for that is not such a bad idea). Next skill would be new one. You plant explosives on the moon area. That explosives could release a small belt in to the space. The higher the skill for the explosions the cleaner the belt and the bigger it gets. Skill at 1 is much more trit. Skill at 5 and more high mins could get extracted.

4. From what ive heard the structures to find mining belts are much harder to maintain as for getting rats. Equal those with the ratting structures. Getting more and better fields i.e. you dont have to mine as much for getting them to lvl 5.

Halycon Gamma
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.19 12:46:00 - [11]

Change gravimetric sites to where players can build structures inside them. Take a page from PI, but allow us to blow it up instead of FPS players. Scan down a grav site, and setup a mobile command center inside it. At that point it becomes a static entity which stays put until the command center is destroyed.

A mobile command center allows you to build extractor units for the large asteroids inside the site. It also allows you to setup a basic production chain. And finally, setup a basic defensive grid that'll make solo players dead if they try to take it head on, but a small gang of players should be able to clear out with no major problems.

Add in a few sizes of mobile command centers for larger production chains and greater defensive arrays for larger gangs of players to kill. For scalable difficulty & rewards.

After that, give the attackers a few different choices of what they wanna do. They could bring in haulers and a hacking module then try to steal everything in the hopper. They could destroy it all. They could do a bit of both.

Tie keeping the mobile command centers up and running with fuel back into PI/Dust making the FPSers even more important to the game.

Keep in mind, I don't know if this should be done at all. Anything like this. Putting more and more of the onus of production on nullsec so people aren't dependent on highsec will be the single largest sweeping change to eve ever made. Yes it could make 0.0 better, but it could also break empire space.

Whatever system or choice you decide on, make it clear to CCP that this should not be an expansion in its own right. It should be a very very careful iteration of allowing some things to be built in nullsec easily, let a few months pass so everyone can get used to new market balance, and add a few more. Repeat.

Valator Uel
Mercenaries of Andosia
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.19 12:52:00 - [12]

Scorched Earth:
Lets see what 0.0 resources are:
- Moons
- Asteroids
- NPC's
- Plexes/Anomolies
- PI

All these factors should be able to be affected. Currently, the only way to deny the enemy these resources is to take over the system (ie Sov warfare or lolafkcloaker in some cases). There are no mechanics for smaller properly organised groups to disrupt these, or if strong enough to apply any "burning of the fields" tactics.

There should be ways to use existing skills/ships/modules to disrupt these or with the use of a new ship. It should be balanced enough to give defenders a chance to protect their assets but not require a huge fleet to attack. The scorched earth policy should also be available to defenders if they wish to deny attackers any resources.

[Unrefined] Examples:
- Irradiating moons so they cannot be mined for x-days/weeks/months.
- Destroying asteroid belts
- Lowering military index
- Bombarding planets (or using Dust players to destroy PI facilities)

Independence from Jita:
I think this is a deeper "problem" more related to economical sense than wanting to be independent. To be able to be truly independent from Jita you need a ton of organising to be able to have the market diversity that Jita offers, at the prices Jita offers.

This could only exist in 0.0 if there was incentive to actually produce items there instead of reselling from Jita. Only a highly organised alliance in which some players have all the BPO's and access to all the required resources could really rival Jita. And then again, they have to be able to make a profit.

The only way I can see this happening is by streamlining the access to resources. T2 is the defacto tech level to have in 0.0., and while minerals are easy to get to build the T1 items, getting moon materials is another story. Alliances/Corporations tend to find it easier to sell their resources directly to Jita as it is much simpler.

When it comes to making a profit, the mass-majority of players will always tend to go for the simpler ways to do things.

Will expand on things later

Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.04.19 13:47:00 - [13]

Once we can tag an item with who build it add depth/ simplicity to the 0.0 areas by making ships made in 0.0 have to stay in 0.0. If they go into hisec they get a criminal tag unless you pay concord to register the ship. If this is done you can tweak the blueprints for 0.0 made items to use less ore. or purchase whole books of lower level bpc that cannot be used to manufature in hs.

Arkady Sadik
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.04.19 13:53:00 - [14]

Scorched Earth

It's easy to make a list of stuff that needs to be "breakable" to hurt someone. One thing I think has been done wrong so far is how this is done (structure grind). The game mechanical background you have is that you want a balance between making it possible for an attacker to do some bad stuff within a reasonable timeframe, but also for the defender to have a chance to set up a defense fleet. Structure grind tries to establish this "reasonable timeframe" with a HP count, but that does not work, as "MOAR DPS" will just totally wipe it out. To make it impossible to just run through with 50 BS and kill everything in 5 minutes, the HP count is big enough to tank that, but that makes it impossible to do anything bad with 20 HACs.

Drop HP grind. Replace it with timers (yes, I'm serious). You park your fleet next to a target, maybe activate a module on it, and then you wait 10, 20, 30, 60 minutes, whatever is deemed a "reasonable timeframe". After that time the thing is broken and defenders have to do a similar doohicky to fix it again. Factional Warfare uses this, and when you manage to get past all the bugs, problems and misfeatures (like, one frigging tells you when an attack is starting so you can't actually defend), the mechanic works really well.

So you can move in with a 5-ship fleet and disable the Pirate Magnet at the ihub by sitting next to it for 15 minutes. If you get attacked in that time, the disruption stops, etc. If you don't, the defenders have to put in some major work to repair it (say, sit next to it for 30 minutes or something).

Moon miners and other resource-creating things (customs offices?) could even drop some of their yield to you. Sit next to moon miner with the Moon Mining Hacking Tool and you get some of the moon yield from the silo every 5 minutes until someone stops you. For example, you get the yield of 1h every 5 minutes, so if you can stay for 2h every day you steal their whole moon goo income. No need to repair anything, even. (Exact numbers need some major thinking through, obviously.)

Independence from Jita

This is difficult, because you will have to compete with a much larger market. I'll say something about this below, but as it will include "make logistics more difficult", I'll mention the other stuff first so people who rage at me for that will read the other stuff ;-)

Give the expensive ore in 0.0 sufficient quantities of low-end minerals so it's not sensible to just mine high-ends and import low-ends from Jita, but to have all the minerals in 0.0 already when you're done mining.

Then, remove the whole region-specific stuff. If you want stuff to happen in 0.0, then it must be possible for an alliance to produce most if not all things themselves based on the resources of a region. All moon minerals, all sorts of ice, etc. etc. need to be available for your alliance, in sufficient quantities, in the one region you call home. While trade is good, the second you add trade, you make it easier for an alliance to run to Jita than to do anything else. Trade should be an option to avoid local work, not a necessity.

But in the end, I'm afraid that "effort of logistics" seems to be the only real factor I can see to balance this out - regardless what else you do, you end up with a much smaller group of people competing with a much bigger one, which just won't work out (even the whole NC is 40k accounts total, Jita has 1/40th of that logged into the system at any point).

The problem here is "ease of logistics" on multiple levels. Not only the ease of logistics from Jita to 0.0, but also the ease of logistics to Jita. Autopiloting freighters bring goods to Jita every day, and that's trivial effort to get the results from Jita. Make logistics to Jita more difficult and you reduce the competition of any single market spot.

Anything that makes it desirable for players to spread out and not stick in any one system will reduce the competition that 0.0 has to fight against. Usage-dependent dynamic agent quality, dynamic factory/research cost, and dynamic sales taxes in empire space would all work towards making it easier to compete with Jita.

Kajan Tormen
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
Posted - 2011.04.19 14:23:00 - [15]

dynamic sales taxes

now THAT is an interesting idea to kill jita/balance trade hubs

Borza Slavak
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Posted - 2011.04.19 14:28:00 - [16]

Reduce material reqs of outpost factory upgrades to a more attractive level, increase slots available. Possibly do the same with research slots.

For farms and fields add 'solar collector' small gang targets.

Sov-dependent structures which will be the basis for your POS fuel discount, also JB fuel use. Anchored near stars, need to be probed down. One or two per sov level, need max # to reach same fuel discount as currently available.
Have limited shield and armor EHP, significant structure HP in a similar way to POS guns - so you can disable them with limited effort or destroy easily with large BS gang/caps.
Must be repped within 1 1/2 - 2 hours or are stuck offline for 20 hours after which they can be repaired at any time. Obviously while offline/reinforced you lose your discount.
Either omni-resists or racial variations. Not visible on overview, must be probed down. Cost twice, (more?) than a TCU but no bill associated with them.

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:06:00 - [17]

Dynamic NPC fees for the market and industrial slots would certainly make spreading out more appealing but depending on how strong that factor is it might prove really annoying in the long run. Not saying it would be bad to try but just reminding everyone the consequences of actively discouraging trade hubs are going to be far reaching and not nesc intended.


There are five problems i know of for 0.0 industry: Mineral balance, T2 material shortage, T3 material shortage, Industrial Index, and capacity issues in general. There might be more but I am only going to offer comment on things I've dealt with directly (and before Zastrow freaks again, yes Iíve run a small 0.0 alliance, oversaw Noir. holding 4 outposts in Provi for over 6 months and trying to rebuild the market there, and more).

Mineral Balance: As mentioned above, over abundance of high ends and not enough low ends because of natural player tendencies to want to spend time mining the roids with the highest value. Increase the yield of low end minerals in ark/bist/etc would be the simplest solution. Some kind of process where you can turn high ends into low ends would be another (the opposite of the alchemy system). Some nerf to compression will probably be needed to balance this out so the empire markets arnt crashed.

T2 Material Shortage: Regardless if you have enough mineral income to build tons of T1 ships, seeding your 0.0 market with t2 items/ships without importing from empire is ******edly hard. And given that T2 fits if not T2 ships are practically required for robust modern PVP, thatís a serious problem. As a poster above mentioned, this is because not only is the T2 production chain complicated but it cant be done from the resources of one region, possibly even two regions, and certainly not to any degree of scale. A way to facilitate the exchange of or straight up acquisition of moon minerals and reactions between 0.0 regions would be needed. A simplification of the production process, at least a little, would probably help.

T3 Material Shortage: Wormholes are awesome, and T3 are fun to fly. Unfortunately the WH iHub upgrade is woefully underpowered and even at level 5 the increase in WH frequency is marginal. Increase the effect of the WH upgrade, increase the volume of material that can be acquired and then put to use by alliances which choose to put T3 in their crop rotation.

Indy Index: Itís extremely hard to build up and maintain compared to the military one, and the level 4 and 5 mining upgrades are not as ISK/hour good as the level 3. The difficulty level needs to be adjusted and the higher end indy sites could use a look.

Capacity: Once the resource issue is solved, 0.0 will need more slots and tools to handle the production side of this. Yes you can sorta do it with POS but they are annoying, require permissions, and are otherwise inefficient. POS manufacturing capabilities being made streamlined and perhaps adding more efficient production modules that can only be anchored at a certain sov level (similar to CSAA) would be ways to go. Another way would be push through the outpost upgrade cost reduction that was supposed to come with Dominion and look at tweaking the upgrade trees to allow for more competitive services compared empire.

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:11:00 - [18]

Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde on 19/04/2011 15:12:47
Burning all that **** I just mentioned

System Scanner Functionality: Not directly related to indy but related to ihub upgrades. 30s and 4AU range is a pretty swift kick in the pants to roamers and pretty much necessitates a T3 cov ops +probes configuration to have a remotely competitive chance to land on someone before they dock/POS. Requiring a 500mil ISK ship just to level the playing field is a pretty high barrier of entry. Shortening the timer and possibly increasing the range would increase the chances for success while still affording more protection for the NPCer than belt ratting (and would be more convenient for carebears as well since they need to scan for anomalies too)

Incapacitate POS Industry Mods: Moving mods outside of the POS shield is an old idea but not a bad one.

Ihubs: I am actually against allowing roaming gangs to disable parts of the iHub. Iíve gone back and forth on this but degrading the index I feel should be the way to reduce the advantages from the upgrades. Perhaps a look at the rate of degradation on the Military index and a way to lower the Strategic index instead (timer mechanic would work here).

Wormholes: Buffing the WH ihub upgrade will not only increase T3 material availability but for those alliances that choose to install it they will be opening up more ways for small groups of harassers to gain access to their space, potentially with little to no warning. Risk/reward at its finest.

Outpost Services: Till we get wreckable outposts (please Seleene?) weíre going to have to deal with the proliforation of things that allow you to be perfectly safe inside them and offer a wide range of convenient services which will hopefully be easily upgradable to well past empire utility. People can attack them but would need a POS takedown fleet to do it in a reasonable amount of time. POS Takedown fleets donít really lend themselves to riding around the country side setting fire to crops. What we have now is something that takes forever to incapacitate and forever to repair. What we SHOULD have are services that are very low HP so they can be incapíd and repaired in one playing session by a small group of players. This will drive conflict since downed services are inconvenient but attacking them is not while not griefing defenders too badly since they can easily repair damaged services once attackers are driven away/leave.

Tamir Lenk
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:26:00 - [19]

Ratting Idea

Change rat bounties and mission bounties to tags.

Set NPC buy orders for rat bounty tags in Empire. Set NPC buy orders for mission bounty tags in low sec/null sec.

This would hinder bot-ratting (no more auto cash) and create trade routes between high-sec/low-sec/null-sec. Sell your tags locally to players at market rates, or import/export to other sectors (e.g., transport rat bounties to Empire) for better NPC prices.

Industry Ideas

Add some kind of refining/compression capability to certain mining/industrial ships, like the compression that Rorq has. Introduce it as a tier 2 Orca hull. This would allow small gangs to go mining without station access or POS rights, and reduce the need to tie into Refinery stations in null sec.

Add an inefficient but viable production/processing ability to an industrial hull (Orca or Rorq). Again, small teams could process ore and/or rat loot on the fly, perhaps limited to certain items (ammo, basic mods, etc.). This would allow small corps to explore null-sec without substantial logistics to get in and out of Empire. It would also permit industrialists to do more than just mine and rat, even if they lack access to a nearby POS or station.

The mobile refining, production, etc. would have to be less efficient on the ship than in a POS or station.


Recursa Recursion
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:38:00 - [20]

Putting on my indy hat from 0.0:

- Echoing the earlier comment, there are simply not enough low end roids in 0.0 to make a dent into the amount of Trit / Pyer / Mex necessary for production. Whoo, 100k Veldspar roids in the Grav spawns, yeah? For instance, change the super-massive Spodumain spawn in Level 1 grav sites over to massive Veldspar, Scordite, and Pyrox spawns. While it would be good to put those low-end roids in the normal belts, it prevents the ability to respawn which could be problematic. I would even go so far as to suggest making Level 1 wholesale full of low ends. The bummer is that players are largely protected in the grav sites but the respawn mechanic is probably necessary unless the fields spawn amazing WTF numbers on the roids each night.

- Alternatively, tweak the high end mineral chart. You get a pittance of of low ends from the high end ore. Perhaps even add in new ore to further tweak the system. Take say the info from Cerlestes:

Arkonor yields 0.09 of Trit versus Veldspar which yields 30+. Tweak say your mid-high tier versions (Gneiss, Spod) to yield on par with Scord or Veld in terms of Trit, Pyer, or Mex per 1 m3. Or upgrade Ark, Bist, and Crok to anywhere from 1-4 Trit, Pyer, or Mex per m3 rather than the puny amounts they yield now. Low Trit / Pyer / Mex yields means import from Jita, plain and simple.

- Way, way, way more manufacturing slots at stations. Stations slots are ideal in that they do not require working through the god awful POS role management. POS role management is probably too much to ask for. Slots on the order of +30, +50, or +100 would be a good start. The station becomes the default access for low tier industrialists and the hard core can use the POS which has the benefit of a time bonus.

- Big thumbs up to the notion of time-based disruptions rather than HP grinds. The fellow from Agony Unleashed had a good concept with the notion of a player-created Incursion. Toss that in with a dose of being able to steal moon goo / PI loot from the system and that becomes full of awesome:

- In terms of being able to burn the fields, there really is not a substitute for ditching local for specific craft. Bring on a T3 module (Frig or Cruiser) or a T3 cloak that allows one to disappear. Or take one of the ideas of a local hiding module similar to a HIC. Give it a reasonable counter for system entrances (anchorable module that forces appearances in local similar to a bubble).

- Not entirely sold on the notion of a mobile refinery but if it worked at the same rate as a POS refinery say minus 5%, that might be something to consider.

- The Jita issue is a bit more complicated. A good portion of it comes from the fact that manufacturing in null sec is a PITA. If you have to import the low ends anyway, why not just pay the limited markup and just grab the finished item? The bar for manufacturing (lack of slots) means that your low end indy guys really can't fill in the bottom of the market (ammo, T1, etc.).

- As to those that want to tweak jump bridges / jump freighters, stfu please. Logistics is already time consuming enough, what you are really looking for is how to increase the cost, not the time. Increase the cost (LO-wise or isotope-wise), not the time.

- A point of origin flag could work but that would be pretty brutal. Stamp on a trade war / inter-regional tax (based on the poo (ha) flag) of X% (11% or whatever the NPC tax is). Interesting effect would be to vary the import tax based on the security of the system where you sell it. Counterbalance that with the import tax (10% in a 0.9, i.e. Jita) being based on the security of the system where you sell it and some combination of distance from high sec. Voila, low sec gankers, something for everyone. Once sold, items gets a new POO stamp.

Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.19 19:33:00 - [21]

I think there should be more hauler spawn income and less bounty income. These anoms should include a few hauler spawn sites.

Less isk sinks, easier production in null sec.

EI Digin
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.19 19:35:00 - [22]

FWIW: I am a small-time small ship manufacturer located in 0.0.

- Most of the minerals I get are imported from highsec, as are much manufacturers simply because it is wiser for a miner to operate in highsec, risk free, than it is to gain very little more in null for a much higher risk. Players will follow the easiest money; if it is more profitable to mine lower-tier asteroids than higher-tier asteroids, they will go for the lower-tier.

My simple suggestion would be to make 'roids have much more (or less) minerals in them, based on sec status?, and to drastically increase the amount of minerals that can be mined every cycle. The supply problem is a large issue because it's expensive to import minerals, and as said by a previous poster, why bother importing minerals and creating things for a sliver of profit when you can just import the actual item? Miners will always provide a "farms and field" mechanic, they are nice juicy targets for any roaming gang, in lowsec or 0.0.

If you wish for the manufacturing and mining community to be decentralized, rather than highsec as it is currently, the risk/reward factor of nullsec/lowsec mining should be relooked.

- Station slots should be increased. Caldari, and un-upgraded Amarr outposts have a pitiful amount of research/build slots, compared to what a medium to large sized alliance full of high-skilled manufacturers can use. To add an amount of risk to relatively secure stations, station service HP can be reduced to a level where it may only take a medium to large sized gang only 5-10 minutes to put down. POS research/building is fine, but some more incentives should be offered to augment the risk of losing everything.

Increasing the amount of station slots also increases the amount of isk that can be trapped in stations taken by enemies in a war. This can introduce a "supply line" mechanic, as capturing an alliance's production hub can cripple their ability to fight long, bloody wars, as well as remove a very important income source.

- A way to destroy or disable ratting, complex, and mining upgrades on the ihub, much like station services should be implemented. If the farmers leave their fields undefended, the raiders should be able to disable or destroy their income source. Ratters/miners should be punished for POSing up, running away, and providing no resistance whatsoever.

- I don't have much experience with T2/T3 stuff, but the current POS mechanics for moon goo and supercap production seem to provide a lot of risk (losing your entire haul if you don't time your POS correctly/don't show up to defend it) for a lot of reward (billions upon billions of isk), making them fair and balanced.

- The plain and simple reason why Jita/highsec is the base for all industrialization activity is because it is more profitable to build in a centralized place in a safe area, rather than in decentralized areas around the universe. Nerfing Jump Freighters and Jump Bridges is just attacking a symptom of the problem, rather than attacking the actual problems.

Sephiroth CloneVII
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:45:00 - [23]

make ore in null sec yield double the minerals that of empire variations. And low sec 50% more, as it stands the bottle neck for production in null sec is often trit and pyrite. Miners have no reason to mine trit in lower sec if it is the same profit as empire (where they can do afk much safer).

Got to have some kind of worthwhile crop outside of death stat moon pos's in order to worry about how to attack them.

Ideas for stations as well, a basic station should have close to the same slots and ability's as those of NPC's, a upgraded one should have increasing number of slots. That and ability to set up more stations in a system.

Herschel Yamamoto
Nabaal Syndicate
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:47:00 - [24]

- Change mineral volumes, so that trit is 1/1,000,000 m3 or so(and scale it up accordingly, so that the high-ends are fairly bulky still). This eliminates mineral compression and makes actual ingots of minerals the most efficient way to move minerals around, while at the same time dramatically easing the supply situation of trit in nullsec.
- Double or triple all outpost manu lines, and clean up POSes so that using them to build at isn't such a brain-mashingly frustrating thing to do. Alternately(or in addition), make outpost upgrades substantially cheaper. I'd wager that nobody in Eve history has ever installed a tier-3 outpost upgrade, which implies to me that they need some work. You can get a pretty decent factory set up with a max-upgrade Amarr outpost, but it costs as much as three new outposts.
- Add a market filter to exclude stations we don't have docking rights at from market searches.

That should sort most of the problems with nullsec industry out pretty nicely.

Rika Jones
Warp Storm Industries
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:57:00 - [25]

Originally by: The Mittani
The Farms and Fields topic, making Nullsec less dependent on Jita for everything, providing farms and fields for small-gang targets beyond sov structures. This may degenerate into a 'for gods sakes implement the missing Dominion features' discussion.

The problem with commerce in nullsec is a matter of access. You can't dock without standings and you can't travel through with the kinds of ships that make it worth the effort (freighters) without a massive fleet in support. Therefore, alliances tend to focus on being self-sufficient and seeding their own markets. Prices for things are often way out of hand because of the high-demand/low-supply situation. Administratively, most alliances manage this by adopting Jita-price standards and punishing members who gouge.

A possible solution: Add a few contiguous high-security systems into each of the regions that adjoin empire space. Go even further and establish npc-controlled cyno-generators in those hubs that only jump freighters can use. Commerce should be reasonably open to all.

Scatim Helicon
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:02:00 - [26]

Is the possibility of nerfing the **** out of highsec industry at the same time as buffing nullsec industry likely to be on the table here?

Tetragammatron Prime
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:08:00 - [27]

hmm is this one of those stupid assembly hall threads you were talking about?

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:16:00 - [28]

In my experience, t1 production can be reasonably done in null-sec. However, outside of a select BC/BS hulls, and a very limited number of mods, most t1 items just aren't used. Additionally, the limit of low-end minerals makes mining for BS manufacturing extremely hard!

T2 production in null sec just doesn't happen much. Bringing T2 BPO's into nullsec is typically not worth the risk, and invention requires a significant influx of other materials that you typically can't get locally (decryptors & datacores). When competing with hi-sec services, null-sec is at a disadvantage. This is reversed from what it aught to be. If the resources for complete t2 production where available locally, then maybe nullsec industry would have a better chance.

Potential ideas for fixing this:
1.) Make more low end minerals available locally.
2.) Make more invention materials available locally.
3.) Allow null-sec station services to be upgradeable to hi-sec quality (or better).
4.) Make Hisec-Nullsec travel more risky.... i.e. move the JB system to the IHUB (i.e. at a planet away from POS protection!).
5.) Make industry upgrades more effective/profitable!
6.) This is way out there: Tariffs?? Empire fee for moving modules between empire regions with a tariff free nullsec?? I doubt this can be simply implemented, and is more trouble than its worth...

I'm sure there are much better ideas on how to improve null-sec industry!

Jonathan Malcom
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.19 21:35:00 - [29]

I'm not at all an industrialist, so this may be a completely ******ed observation, but I haven't seen anyone else mention it.

From what I understand, T2 production requires datacores. These datacores are only available from research agents in Empire.

Is that not a fairly significant hurdle to establishing an industrially independent null-sec?

Doctor Invictus
Industry and Investments
Posted - 2011.04.19 22:00:00 - [30]

I have a whole giant proposal on nullsec reform over at F&I on this topic (industrialization, small gangs, everything else). Where's my X-Prize from CCP? Razz

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