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Coraline Dallocort
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:24:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Coraline Dallocort on 18/04/2011 16:31:11
I propose a new item that is basically a low yield nuke you keep in your cargo hold (so it can be scanned and seen by the gankers) that detonates upon an unexpected venting of the cargo hold (i.e. it is rent asunder as the ship is destroyed). The up shot would be that it progressively (via skill levels) reduces the % chance of your goods dropping for suicide gankers to harvest.

From the 50% chance of any one module or stack dropping on ship destruction it drops by 5% per primary skill level. Add on a couple more skills (heavily pre-rec) and possibly reduce the chance of a drop down to under 5%

Basically what you are trying to do is make sure if you are ganked then you assure that your precious cargo is rendered useless. If you drastically reduce the chances of a profitable drop then the desire for profit motivated ganking also drops..

For the ganker it's not all bad news as not every one will do the research or even know of this item so there still will be viable targets. Also even at the highest skill levels there should be a good 5% chance of a good drop.

This idea would not stop ganking, but add another deterrent.

Anyway. Just a thought

EDIT: fixed an auto-correct snafu

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.04.18 17:05:00 - [2]
 

No. I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that suicide ganking is part of the game. Just like scamming and thievery. You wanna be a ****...well be a ****. You wanna steal and pillage...steal and pillage. You wanna become the leader of the biggest alliance of jackass's in the game and then become chairman of the CSM and have a bigger impact on the game. Then do it. Thats what is great about EvE. You can be and do what you want when you want. If you want to stop people from suicide ganking you...then do your business somewhere other than Jita or stop making yourself the obvious target.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.04.18 17:14:00 - [3]
 

Why should suicide ganking be "deterred"?

If you really want to "deter" suicide ganking I suggest using a super special ultra-secret h4xxsploit known as "tanking your ship properly and not autopiloting when you have valuable cargo or modules".

I hope you see this post before it gets deleted and I get banned for revealing this exploit.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.18 17:43:00 - [4]
 

I've heard scouts help. Or flying as a group... you know, in a Massive Multiplayer.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.04.18 17:51:00 - [5]
 

Not supported.

Suicide ganking is working as intended.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Posted - 2011.04.18 18:26:00 - [6]
 


Your solution is a module that when in your cargo, reduces the chance for cargo to drop.

I actually like this idea.... but need some extra thought put into it.

What uses does this cargo-mod truly have: It means when your ship dies, so does more of your cargo. Can this be used in all ships? Does it affect fitted mods? Could this have any potential for abuse?

What is a fair "reduction" in likelyhood? I would suggest a reduction of chance to drop to a minimum 10-20%.

Why do you want a mod to do this? Would a skill be better? If its a skill that you can't turn off/on, then it has a nice double edged sword feel to it!


Coraline Dallocort
Posted - 2011.04.19 00:29:00 - [7]
 

Im not looking to stop Ganking. I fully accept that anything can will, and most likely, does happen with-in the EVE universe and that is simply the nature of the game.

All I want to do is reduce the risk for an individual, taking prudent precautions, even further. Id much rather give them a reason to leave me the heck alone and pick on the next guy through the gate (lest of course if he is a corp mate).

So all you wanna be Ganksters can rest easy. you will just have to be extra careful in choosing your targets. There still will be plenty of careless carebears out there for you to have your wicked way with.

Plus The ship is still destroyed and the the cargo is still destroyed (or no longer in your possession) so the net result of an event is still the same for the poor bugger in the Indy.

you don't complain when people fly with partially loaded freighters to reduce the potential value of a load, nor when they scout ahead and avoid the system. You don't complain when people single stack their stuff to reduce droppage. THis is just another way of reducing the potential value of one potential target to a ganking feet. The Ganksters are free to take me out anyway as the module is not guaranteed to vaporise everything and there might be profit in it, but thats the thing. Eve is about risk/reward and gives all players the chance to tweak the percentages in their favour. Better % on turret tracking, on speed, on lock time, in refining waste.... and so on... One of the few parameters that are not skill/module tweak-able is the 50% drop rule. This idea changes that.

Dont forget that it works both ways.. If you are unfortunate (stupid) enough to get taken by NPC rats then your chances of recovering any loot is also drastically reduced.

I kinda like the idea of it being a permanent modification of the ship (ie cant be undone) as that adds risk for the pilot choosing this option that way you stand to loose more (less hope of recovery in any ship loss) but there still need to be an item in the cargo hold (permanent, and also reducing m3 capacity) to expressly flag the existence of this mod to anyone scanning the contents.

along with the Cargo reduction you would also take a permanent hit to max cap and quite possibly on max velocity too.


in the long run I believe pilots have the right to choose to destroy what is about to be taken if they so wish. A F### You! clause if you like. I should be allowed to make it as difficult as I possibly can for you to profit from me, and while this doesn't stop you from playing, or from ganking me should you so wish, it does - by fractions - increase the chance you will let me past and pick on the next guy.

Coraline Dallocort
Posted - 2011.04.19 00:47:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Why should suicide ganking be "deterred"?

If you really want to "deter" suicide ganking I suggest using a super special ultra-secret h4xxsploit known as "tanking your ship properly and not autopiloting when you have valuable cargo or modules".

I hope you see this post before it gets deleted and I get banned for revealing this exploit.



Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.. learn your ship and the best way to protect it. If you don't then I have little sympathy for you. I'm just seeking to add that little something more.

You notice this idea doesn't protect my ship, or its cargo. In fact it costs my plenty to train for and fit this modification (permanent fixture so I need to buy one for every ship I have) it even reduces my cargo capacity and affects the power,cpu, and cap available (permanently) All it does is reduce the potential value of the wreckage, and in turn increases the chance of being left alone.

the 50% chance of droppage is a value I believe a player should be able to tweak in his favour.

Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
Posted - 2011.04.19 01:02:00 - [9]
 

The only thing wrong with suicide ganking as it is is that CONCORD must kill you for it.

Hurray for beatable CONCORD.

Coraline Dallocort
Posted - 2011.04.19 02:53:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
No. I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that suicide ganking is part of the game. Just like scamming and thievery. You wanna be a ****...well be a ****. You wanna steal and pillage...steal and pillage. You wanna become the leader of the biggest alliance of jackass's in the game and then become chairman of the CSM and have a bigger impact on the game. Then do it. Thats what is great about EvE. You can be and do what you want when you want. If you want to stop people from suicide ganking you...then do your business somewhere other than Jita or stop making yourself the obvious target.


Agreed, but that said that if you want to be a S### then are you trying to claim that the game should bend over backwards to make your road to Douchebaggery all violets and roses?

While yes, good tanking and avoiding the heck out of Jita and other hot-spots is a good first step some times you simply cant avoid a good ganking. As has been said, its part of the game.

But, as you say, if I have every right to be a girefing little Gankster if I wan't and let all the care-bears can go spin, then why do I not also have the right to want to be a truculent belligerent little S### and say "S## YOU! you want to blow up my ship for the cargo... well I will do my best to deny you that prize (Presses the big red button marked 'Splode The Load!')


Douchebaggery come in many flavors, including wanting to give the middle finger to Ganksters. And by your own rational, that should be allowed just as much as the ganking in the first place...

Coraline Dallocort
Posted - 2011.04.19 03:26:00 - [11]
 

So far the the main argument seems to be that "you cant stop me from being a Gankster, it's part of EVE to allow douchbaggery of this kind"

I don't want to stop you. As it has been said, twisted and morally dubious routes round problems in the path of profit are a hallmark of EVE. And I applaud such thinking. Heck I'm the one proposing putting nukes in the cargo hold to ##### you over, so how messed up are MY morals.

All I am asking for is a way of decreasing the %chance of loot drop when the inevitable happens and my Ship containing that Titan BPO goes all 'sploady-like.

Now it seems that not many of you have spotted the obvious just yet..

The 50/50 chance of a module or stack dropping is currently locked. It can't be altered. But if it was unlocked, then haulers would be free to decrease it but, to be fair, surely there would be modules that would INCREASE IT.

See? I wonder how many of you would be equally opposed to a module that INCREASES drop % ? Not many I would guess. And since when has CCP been in the habit of introducing something without the possibility of countering it?

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 03:31:00 - [12]
 

actually a 'destroy my cargo' bomb as a '**** you' sounds pretty cool.

that said, this is a micro-level issue you're not likely to ever see implemented, given the various sucking chest wounds in the game we have to triage.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.04.19 06:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Val'Dore
Hurray for beatable CONCORD.

or players acting on CONCORD's behalf, like CCP was considering at fanfest...

Coraline Dallocort
Posted - 2011.04.19 09:12:00 - [14]
 

Actually. My friend here at work actually came up with a variant on this idea that SO made me smile. No Actually it made me grin like a madman.

Rather than a bomb that attempts vaporise your cargo on ship destruction he suggested that you can use highly explosive devices that are disguised as something tasty. They sit in your cargo hold and are prone to the same 50% chance of surviving as anything else then, and here is the sneaky bit, once they get jettisoned they arm.. and sit waiting.

The Ganksters have long since been vaped by Concorde and you have limped back to base in your pod. Then the sweepers come out and loot your shattered remains. As they gleefully chuckle at all the nice goodies they are scooping up they are unaware that there is one heck of a surprise in his immediate future. Any armed device that is dragged into the cargo hold of a ship will explode (big Damage, inside the shield and armour so it acts directly on the structure). If the Hauler is smart he will have multiple devices on board to assure that at least one survives.

This doesn't stop the Ganksters hitting you, but forces the sweeper to think carefully about what he is sweeping up.

As to how you disguise the devices.. hmmn.. May be they have a holographic generator and you have to feed it a BPC (so this ain't gonna be cheap!) of the thing you want it to mimic. You would be able to tell the fakes as they would be the wrong mass.

Maybe you could set it to explode on being dragged into a hold OR set a timer and hope that it goes off in their corp hanger for MAX damage :) ho yes that would be good :)

The key important thing is that these things need to be spaced by explosive decompression to arm.. (transferring from hold to can or manual jettisoning should not arm them)


Goose99
Posted - 2011.04.27 20:45:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Goose99 on 27/04/2011 20:46:23
Originally by: The Mittani
actually a 'destroy my cargo' bomb as a '**** you' sounds pretty cool.

that said, this is a micro-level issue you're not likely to ever see implemented, given the various sucking chest wounds in the game we have to triage.



Not a sucking chest wound, you say...

Quote:
Funding suicide campaign, plans for the future
From: Lacco
Sent: 2011.04.25 19:30
To: draketrain,

Hey,

we've got plenty of security status to spend. If you hit 5.0 security status, I'll give a new title: "Security Baron", make sure you don't get it!

PLANS::

Anyway, what we are going to do for one or two weeks from now on is a big time suicide operation in every caldari high-sec system where Tengus roam. The purpose is to collect epic modules, and cash them out in Jita. I think most of you know how this is done. In short, make sure you have artillery battleship.

The goal here is to raise funds for our non-existant capital fleet. Dreadnoughts and a jump freighter are in the buylist. Also some of the money is going to be used in buying t2 ships and armageddons. Basically we have our eyes out for expanding into a secondary military base when we have the ISK.


FUNDING SUICIDE::

At this point we are broke. As some of you already know, we have ran a set of suicides during the weekend, and the results were amazing. Only problem is that the suicides are not paying back instantly. Basically our bloodthursty suicide team is on stand by, and we need to do something about it. If you have liquid isk you want to LOAN to the corporation, send ISK to Lacco in 100million ISK sums minimum. All loaned isk will be returned when sales are finished. The more liquid isk we can get rolling, the more loot we can start to muster out of the hardworking Tengu pilots, and the faster our goal will be reached.


I will be orchestrating some suicide missions for next week tomorrow, so don't **** in your pants yet.


When sov null moves back to highsec for the gank to raise isk, you know tengus are in style.Laughing

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.27 21:11:00 - [16]
 

I think the original idea is great (not so sure about the device bit...unless there's a way to detect them, but even then...). This would balance out ganking a bit and make it a more positive experience (potentially) for the ganked.

Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
Posted - 2011.04.28 00:37:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Goose99
Edited by: Goose99 on 27/04/2011 20:46:23
Originally by: The Mittani
actually a 'destroy my cargo' bomb as a '**** you' sounds pretty cool.

that said, this is a micro-level issue you're not likely to ever see implemented, given the various sucking chest wounds in the game we have to triage.



Not a sucking chest wound, you say...

Quote:
Funding suicide campaign, plans for the future
From: Lacco
Sent: 2011.04.25 19:30
To: draketrain,

Hey,

we've got plenty of security status to spend. If you hit 5.0 security status, I'll give a new title: "Security Baron", make sure you don't get it!

PLANS::

Anyway, what we are going to do for one or two weeks from now on is a big time suicide operation in every caldari high-sec system where Tengus roam. The purpose is to collect epic modules, and cash them out in Jita. I think most of you know how this is done. In short, make sure you have artillery battleship.

The goal here is to raise funds for our non-existant capital fleet. Dreadnoughts and a jump freighter are in the buylist. Also some of the money is going to be used in buying t2 ships and armageddons. Basically we have our eyes out for expanding into a secondary military base when we have the ISK.


FUNDING SUICIDE::

At this point we are broke. As some of you already know, we have ran a set of suicides during the weekend, and the results were amazing. Only problem is that the suicides are not paying back instantly. Basically our bloodthursty suicide team is on stand by, and we need to do something about it. If you have liquid isk you want to LOAN to the corporation, send ISK to Lacco in 100million ISK sums minimum. All loaned isk will be returned when sales are finished. The more liquid isk we can get rolling, the more loot we can start to muster out of the hardworking Tengu pilots, and the faster our goal will be reached.


I will be orchestrating some suicide missions for next week tomorrow, so don't **** in your pants yet.


When sov null moves back to highsec for the gank to raise isk, you know tengus are in style.Laughing



What's the use of a "self destruct" nuke if you get alpha from 10 artillery battleships? Very Happy
Seriously, tho. While this idea has some theoretical potential when it comes to ganker tears, it's pretty much pointless and probably a waste of dev time.

Zevix
Posted - 2011.04.28 02:30:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Zevix on 28/04/2011 02:30:25
I am a firm believer in this tactic, Id even go a sterp further and have some very obvious way in iconography or visual that shows your hauling something that could backfire on a gank. All I hear from gankers is carebears need to learn risk vs reward even though they are the worst transgressors picking on harmless carebears and blowing up some of the most defenseless ships in eve for some of the highest rewards, if that isnt a risk/reward loophole or exploit I dont know what is.

I myself am trying to engage the community to maybe work halfway between carebears and gankers in my own recent thread

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1502190

to allow room and balanced solutions of a player driven variety. please read and contribute or send me a message so we can continue to collaborate on a better eve for everyone.

Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.04.29 13:01:00 - [19]
 

Logic of this idea is so wrong that it makes me cry.

CCP has already made this game almost fool proof. What we need least here is more safety networks for PVP game.

Loot is already as bad as it is. There is no need making it even worse. If you can always just push "I DECLINE YOUR PVP" button in EvE it becomes pretty boring and fast. Just like lets say WOW.

I can see WOW mechanics coming into eve pretty fast, though. Just think about spacepriests.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.30 23:17:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Gizznitt Malikite

Your solution is a module that when in your cargo, reduces the chance for cargo to drop.

I actually like this idea.... but need some extra thought put into it.

What uses does this cargo-mod truly have: It means when your ship dies, so does more of your cargo. Can this be used in all ships? Does it affect fitted mods? Could this have any potential for abuse?

What is a fair "reduction" in likelyhood? I would suggest a reduction of chance to drop to a minimum 10-20%.

Why do you want a mod to do this? Would a skill be better? If its a skill that you can't turn off/on, then it has a nice double edged sword feel to it!




It's called a cargo container, and the drop is 0%

Anything in a cargo container in a cargohold when a ship explodes, dies with the ship. Anyone who really wants to carry valuable cargo, and cheat anyone out of the KB numbers and loot if killed/ganked uses this. KB will only show the ship and modules as far as I know, nothing in the can, so they don't even get to know what they destroyed, or it's estimated value.


Aamrr
Posted - 2011.05.01 03:41:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Mars Theran

It's called a cargo container, and the drop is 0%



Yeah, um...no. Not true.

Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
Posted - 2011.05.01 05:55:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Aamrr
Originally by: Mars Theran

It's called a cargo container, and the drop is 0%



Yeah, um...no. Not true.


Well, okay, I've never tried it personally, but I know a 2003 player that seems to think it works. Maybe it used to and doesn't anymore, I don't know.

Victor BlueStone
Posted - 2011.05.10 21:31:00 - [23]
 

Coraline... you wouldn't mind if I fleshed out your idea into a new item for purchase via shady industrialists. It would
use existing game mechanics, designed for a variety of ships and provide a similar situation to your following post about
exploding surprises. Very Happy Give me a day and Mr.X will design you a TFT Construct Detonator! Twisted Evil Remember that the evil
engineer creating this must remain anonymous and a fee of several billion ISK for the first BPO must be in my account before
delivery. Only in the safety of a random WH can this transaction take place. Concord can never suspect this device exists!
End of transmission...

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.11 09:20:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi
No. I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that suicide ganking is part of the game. Just like scamming and thievery. You wanna be a ****...well be a ****. You wanna steal and pillage...steal and pillage. You wanna become the leader of the biggest alliance of jackass's in the game and then become chairman of the CSM and have a bigger impact on the game. Then do it. Thats what is great about EvE. You can be and do what you want when you want. If you want to stop people from suicide ganking you...then do your business somewhere other than Jita or stop making yourself the obvious target.


I would like to see a CCP dev statement that ganking is 'working as designed' because honestly I've heard so many people say this so matter-of-factly as if by the nature of everyone repeating it it must be true. I really don't know myself, but I refuse to believe something blindly without justification. Somewhere else in the threads somebody mentioned that long time ago, in EVE, it wasn't as easy as it is now to gank. Whether it cost more to the ganker (in terms of lower insurance payouts, or their were less alpha/insta-pop ship fit outs that can kill most indies without any fighting chance.) I think since then ganking has gotten too easy, and there are pretty much no real negative to ganking save a sec penalty hit. What has happened is that the system is now imbalanced to the point that the small time hauler is almost an endangered species, and hauling as a profession is almost dead, unless you can pilot a freighter.

Ganking IS part of the game, yes. It has a place. But it shouldn't be as easy as it is now. Such imbalanced ganking was likely an unexpected side effect of some other unrelated play balance changes to some modules or insurance policies, and I don't think was intended by CCP.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.05.11 10:43:00 - [25]
 

Just make the insurance company think of its bottom-line like it should, removes the 'lol-suicide' while leaving suicides a viable 'profession'.

In short: Void insurance on concordokken.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.05.11 12:19:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
But it shouldn't be as easy as it is now...


I move my valuable items in an agility-rigged Blockade Runner with a covops cloak fitted. In over 4 years of play I have never ever been suicide ganked. It would be incredibly difficult for anyone to gank me in empire.

Ganking is only ever "easy" when the victims choose to make it easy. People who AFK autopilot, people who dont tank their ships, people who use an 800k Industrial to move hundreds of millions of ISK worth of modules - these are the people that get ganked because they make it easy and profitable for the gankers to do so.

Dont complain that CCP isn't doing enough to make ganking dificult, blame the lazy, ignorant, arrogant players who do everything they can to make ganking easy and profitable.

And before anyone tries to dismiss this as "blame the victim", yes I am blaming the victims, because it's they who are at fault. With a minimal amount of effort and attention, they could completely obviate the problem, but instead they choose to whine and cry for mommy CCP to protect them instead.

It is so ridiculously easy to avoid being ganked that anyone who gets ganked deserves our derision, not our sympathy. And certainly not even more protection from CONCORD.

Incidentally, suicide ganking has been made more difficult by 2 CONCORD buffs and the insurance nerf last year. However it has been boosted by the artillery and torpedo changes. I'd say it's about even compared with how it's ever been. I'm certainly not seeing anything that leads me to believe that it's more prevelent than it used to be.

Victor BlueStone
Posted - 2011.05.11 23:06:00 - [27]
 

This discussion has veered from an idea to provide a deterrent to getting ganked to the pros and cons of ganking.
I myself am in favor of ganking even though I have never been a recipient of one. What the OP wants is a situation
where she is flying and gets scanned. The bad guy (tm) sees the bomb in the cargo hold and has to decide quickly
whether to go ahead and pop a ship knowing he likely won't get loot or start looking for another target. That's
what this proposal is about. Is it a good idea? Some will say yes, others will say no. I like the idea for two
reasons. First it's an active option a pilot can take. (I want to decide what to do with my stuff) I may not get
the goods from point A to point B but the ganker won't get my goods either! (Which is what I understood from the
OP) Two, it's a great ISK sink against the hauler. If pilots start putting bombs in their own cargo hold I bet all
gankers will really make sure no one has the goods! Very Happy Also the bomb itself will be an expense for the pilot who
wants that peace of mind.

My response to the OP was tongue in cheek but my offer was serious. A bomb for the cargo hold is something that can
be implemented. But even if CCP likes it I think some time will pass before this is even considered. Sad Anyway I
will be posting the TFT Construct Detonator in this thread so everyone can see what would be involved in trashing
cargo. Razz (Besides putting a menu option for the cargo hold where pilots can trash items in space)

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.05.12 08:19:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Malcanis


I move my valuable items in an agility-rigged Blockade Runner with a covops cloak fitted. In over 4 years of play I have never ever been suicide ganked. It would be incredibly difficult for anyone to gank me in empire.



Yes but can you move ships in your blockade runner? (no, there isn't enough room) Then what is missing is a ship setup that can move at least 2 packaged ships with reasonable chance of gank proof in emp space. Make that available and I don't see the current situation as a problem.

But I do still support the destruct cargo hold.
I don't think that an Orca should be the only one to have "not stealable" cargo.


 

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