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blankseplocked CSM 6 April 2011 - QA Session Replay With Notes [Official]
 
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Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:05:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Yeah, you have a point there, but this was a thread about the CSM's fireside chat, not CCP. I'm not saying it needs to be PG-13 or anything, I'm just fine with adult chat and humor, I just think that some of the discussion was more akin to listening to an alliance team speak and not really professional for a representative body.

So the CSM should be held to a higher standard than the playerbase (not particularly hard when 90% of local chat is in smsese or trolling) AND the company which makes and maintains the game and actually gets paid for it?

I'd have expected more professionalism from the company that makes the game, but I give no ****s if they prefer to be a bit more ~chill~ about it and not take themselves as seriously as an old lady with a whole broom up her backside.

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:23:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh

On another note, one thing I heard brought up over and over on the call is that CCP will not listen to "micro detail change suggestions". Can I ask, why not?

I thought this one was pretty clear. It's not that CCP won't listen to these ideas. It's that these ideas just get added in to the black hole of a backlog which means "maybe someday if someone is bored enough and there isn't something else they'd rather do." CCP has bazillions of ideas on record for how to make things better, but they have nobody in place to work on them. The CSM has decided that it's a waste of time to just dump more ideas on the pile at this time, at least until CCP starts catching up with things.

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Lord Zim
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Rinah
IMO CSM work is voluntary they do not get paid, so they should act as they like with some borders.


I'm not sure why the lack of pay is relevant. They took on a job that makes them representatives of 350k players in a very public way, and they should treat that position with respect and a level of professionalism that was lacking in many ways on this call.

Unlike the misc rap songs CCP have made the past few years, with a peachy white and fat technoviking, or "the beer ship"?


Yeah, you have a point there, but this was a thread about the CSM's fireside chat, not CCP. I'm not saying it needs to be PG-13 or anything, I'm just fine with adult chat and humor, I just think that some of the discussion was more akin to listening to an alliance team speak and not really professional for a representative body.

I kinda had mixed feelings about the lack of professionalism... on the one hand it was a never ending **** joke about how everybody in CSM, CCP, and Goon are gay for eachother and sucking eachother off (I'm not paraphrasing here.) On the other hand the impression that they all seem to get along (at least from the 30 seconds of people other than Mittens talking) is a positive thing. Although I betcha there are at least a couple guys on the CSM who sit there and quietly loathe Mittens and the joke he's making of the CSM.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:26:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 18/04/2011 16:26:49
Originally by: mkint
Originally by: J Kunjeh

On another note, one thing I heard brought up over and over on the call is that CCP will not listen to "micro detail change suggestions". Can I ask, why not?

I thought this one was pretty clear. It's not that CCP won't listen to these ideas. It's that these ideas just get added in to the black hole of a backlog which means "maybe someday if someone is bored enough and there isn't something else they'd rather do." CCP has bazillions of ideas on record for how to make things better, but they have nobody in place to work on them. The CSM has decided that it's a waste of time to just dump more ideas on the pile at this time, at least until CCP starts catching up with things.



And I understand that, I just feel that first should come the broad strokes kind of suggestions, but once CCP accepts one of those and decides to iterate on it, why wouldn't they want the micro ideas related to the broader subject?

garus banta
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:34:00 - [64]
 

Come on guys a bittorent file?

Can't you just upload the mp3 to youtube?


Yuki Kulotsuki
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:39:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: garus banta
I don't use eve-files
LaughingGirls.jpg

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:42:00 - [66]
 

Gotta say, I really like the idea of getting ship iteration (and how about feature/expansion iteration too? FW anyone?) into CCP's process as a regular thing with dedicated dev's to support it consistently. This is one of the most important things CSM6 has in their plans, me thinks.

Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:45:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
And I understand that, I just feel that first should come the broad strokes kind of suggestions, but once CCP accepts one of those and decides to iterate on it, why wouldn't they want the micro ideas related to the broader subject?

From my perspective, the problem is that this has been attempted, and it hasn't really gotten us anywhere. It's not like the backlog or the ideas are going to disappear just because they're pushing for there to be someone, anyone, to actually LOOK at the way the game is to play today and do regular tweaks instead of using a big-assed 5t hammer to bludgeon a change in.

Once that is in place, then the focus can shift back to ideas, but I wouldn't be surprised if that would be something for CSM7.

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:45:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 18/04/2011 16:26:49
Originally by: mkint
Originally by: J Kunjeh

On another note, one thing I heard brought up over and over on the call is that CCP will not listen to "micro detail change suggestions". Can I ask, why not?

I thought this one was pretty clear. It's not that CCP won't listen to these ideas. It's that these ideas just get added in to the black hole of a backlog which means "maybe someday if someone is bored enough and there isn't something else they'd rather do." CCP has bazillions of ideas on record for how to make things better, but they have nobody in place to work on them. The CSM has decided that it's a waste of time to just dump more ideas on the pile at this time, at least until CCP starts catching up with things.



And I understand that, I just feel that first should come the broad strokes kind of suggestions, but once CCP accepts one of those and decides to iterate on it, why wouldn't they want the micro ideas related to the broader subject?

CCP has way more broad strokes plus micro ideas that they will ever be able to implement (especially since many of them are probably contradictory.) If they find they are short of micro ideas, they've got eyes and access to these forums, just like anybody else. It's a waste of time for the CSM to work on the little things (especially since CCP has a team that's already doing them.) Even if CSM were to focus on them, the work's already been done, and doing more work on it will not get it done sooner. I agree it's better for them to focus on getting processes into place that will get ideas implemented rather than championing specific ideas that will never get implemented.

Mike deVoid
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:47:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: garus banta
Come on guys a bittorent file?

Can't you just upload the mp3 to youtube?




There is a direct download link on that very same page. Finding it takes less time than it did for you to login and post your message. How ******ed are you?

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:52:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 18/04/2011 16:53:33
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 18/04/2011 15:26:51
I'm really happy to see the direction the CSM6 is headed in so far. More communication, more open channels, more of a sense of direction and seriousness about the job. Thanks for holding the fireside and posting it up.

But I do have to say that a whole lot more professionalism needs to be put in place. I don't mind the F-bombs and whatnot, but using the word "re-tarded" 100 times, schlong jokes, stupid comments about Jewish last names? Offensive and totally unnecessary. This isn't your alliance teamspeak. The CSM is a very public representation of the player base, please treat all public communications with a lot more professionalism.


one: youre asking for professionalism from a Goon. One that most people seem to have voted in because "either he'll fix the game or burn it down"

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Rinah
IMO CSM work is voluntary they do not get paid, so they should act as they like with some borders.


I'm not sure why the lack of pay is relevant. They took on a job that makes them representatives of 350k players in a very public way, and they should treat that position with respect and a level of professionalism that was lacking in many ways on this call.


In before "its internet spaceships"

ceaon
Posted - 2011.04.18 17:44:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: garus banta
Come on guys a bittorent file?

Can't you just upload the mp3 to youtube?



sir you are a very stupid eve character
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

boeboe joe
Helix Commonwealth Command
The Scapegoats
Posted - 2011.04.18 22:51:00 - [72]
 

I really like that idea for having more scrum teams for broad topics that continually need improvement, stuff like feature advancement not abandonment, game balancing (hybrids, dreads, moon goo, etc.), and the NPE (new player experience) I also LOVE the idea for a redesigned noob ship! Team Gridlock and Team BFF, if your reading this, good work guys I personally know many players appreciate your hard work.

Gallell
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 23:19:00 - [73]
 

It was a nice session to listen to, I liked it.

Garrance
Posted - 2011.04.19 03:38:00 - [74]
 

So the options are 'old lady with a whole broom up her backside' or far too many f*bombs, '****** jokes' and using 'gay' as a punch-line and making fun of Jewish sounding names? Good to know - thanks for educating us all. Rolling Eyes It was childish profanity for no reason other than to try to look cool, or an inability to be professional. Sorry posting that crap in an alliance channel is one thing, doing it as a CSM offical chat quite another. Remember people have families, my niece heard part of it before I could muffle it - which was the last thing I thought I would need to do. NOT professional.

Originally by: Lord Zim

So the CSM should be held to a higher standard than the playerbase (not particularly hard when 90% of local chat is in smsese or trolling) AND the company which makes and maintains the game and actually gets paid for it?

I'd have expected more professionalism from the company that makes the game, but I give no ****s if they prefer to be a bit more ~chill~ about it and not take themselves as seriously as an old lady with a whole broom up her backside.

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 03:41:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 18/04/2011 15:58:43
On another note, one thing I heard brought up over and over on the call is that CCP will not listen to "micro detail change suggestions". Can I ask, why not? Is it an ego thing amongst the game designers? I would think they'd be open to taking ideas and suggestions no matter how "micro" they are. I understand that the big picture suggestions are easier for them to digest and respond to, but ignoring all micro suggestions is just...lame.


This is a very good question and it's key to understanding the CCP/CSM dynamic.

Game Designers aren't interested in letting players do their job for them. Like I said during the campaign, the CSM is a feedback group and advocacy group, not a team of amateur game designers.

Devs will accept macro-level suggestions ('farms and fields in nullsec, iterative ship balance, stop abandoning features') and smile and nod and ignore micro-level suggestions ('tweak blaster tracking 15%'). That's just how it works. You persuade people by speaking to them in a language they'll accept and understand.

That said, BFF is full of 'micro issues'. The important thing to consider is that we have BFF because it was a macro-level suggestion ('iterate on all these little forgotten issues') which was implemented, not because each of the thousand papercuts were individually advocated.

That's why CSM6 is interested in "Ship Balance Iteration" as a macro issue: put a dedicated team or a couple of devs on Ship Balance constantly, rather than pushing out overnerfs or overbuffs every year or two, randomly. Tackling the macro issues covers a wider range of micro issues.

From a certain perspective it's a strategic choice on CSM6's part, one that you might not agree with. But that's our perspective.

Stahlregen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 03:47:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Garrance
So the options are 'old lady with a whole broom up her backside' or far too many f*bombs, '****** jokes' and using 'gay' as a punch-line and making fun of Jewish sounding names? Good to know - thanks for educating us all. Rolling Eyes It was childish profanity for no reason other than to try to look cool, or an inability to be professional. Sorry posting that crap in an alliance channel is one thing, doing it as a CSM offical chat quite another. Remember people have families, my niece heard part of it before I could muffle it - which was the last thing I thought I would need to do. NOT professional.

Originally by: Lord Zim

So the CSM should be held to a higher standard than the playerbase (not particularly hard when 90% of local chat is in smsese or trolling) AND the company which makes and maintains the game and actually gets paid for it?

I'd have expected more professionalism from the company that makes the game, but I give no ****s if they prefer to be a bit more ~chill~ about it and not take themselves as seriously as an old lady with a whole broom up her backside.




You're a p terrible troll duder.
Here, check it.

Originally by: Draco Llasa

You can download the audio file here -> http://eve-files.com/dl/241557
File Size is approx 50 MB
Length is about 2 hours
Explicit Language





Originally by: Draco Llasa


File Size is approx 50 MB
Length is about 2 hours
Explicit Language





Originally by: Draco Llasa


Explicit Language





Garrance
Posted - 2011.04.19 03:59:00 - [77]
 

No I am not a troll, I admit I missed the 'warning' as who would expect such a thing from the CSM? A fail on my part (and others) as it was so unexpected. Guess my point was, in case you missed it, it wasn't appropriate. However kudos to a goon covering for a goon. So rare in this channel. Rolling Eyes Soon the channel will be nothing but goons and you can be happy... at the expense of CSM appearing valid.


Originally by: Stahlregen


You're a p terrible troll duder.
Here, check it.

Originally by: Draco Llasa

You can download the audio file here -> http://eve-files.com/dl/241557
File Size is approx 50 MB
Length is about 2 hours
Explicit Language






The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.19 04:58:00 - [78]
 

if you think the csm isn't valid because i say '****', there's no hope for you anyway vOv

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.19 09:32:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 18/04/2011 15:58:43
On another note, one thing I heard brought up over and over on the call is that CCP will not listen to "micro detail change suggestions". Can I ask, why not? Is it an ego thing amongst the game designers? I would think they'd be open to taking ideas and suggestions no matter how "micro" they are. I understand that the big picture suggestions are easier for them to digest and respond to, but ignoring all micro suggestions is just...lame.


This is a very good question and it's key to understanding the CCP/CSM dynamic.

Game Designers aren't interested in letting players do their job for them. Like I said during the campaign, the CSM is a feedback group and advocacy group, not a team of amateur game designers.

Devs will accept macro-level suggestions ('farms and fields in nullsec, iterative ship balance, stop abandoning features') and smile and nod and ignore micro-level suggestions ('tweak blaster tracking 15%'). That's just how it works. You persuade people by speaking to them in a language they'll accept and understand.

That said, BFF is full of 'micro issues'. The important thing to consider is that we have BFF because it was a macro-level suggestion ('iterate on all these little forgotten issues') which was implemented, not because each of the thousand papercuts were individually advocated.

That's why CSM6 is interested in "Ship Balance Iteration" as a macro issue: put a dedicated team or a couple of devs on Ship Balance constantly, rather than pushing out overnerfs or overbuffs every year or two, randomly. Tackling the macro issues covers a wider range of micro issues.

From a certain perspective it's a strategic choice on CSM6's part, one that you might not agree with. But that's our perspective.


I definitely understand it as a strategy for the CSM, I was only wondering why it seems that CCP is totally against even considering micro suggestions from the CSM/playerbase. Reading these forums, there are some very good micro suggestions that CCP should be at least taking into account when they go to iterate on existing mechanics/features.

All told, I support what CSM6 is aiming for and I hope it works!

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.04.19 09:48:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
if you think the csm isn't valid because i say '****', there's no hope for you anyway vOv


THIS is why I voted

troll proof <3

Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.19 09:50:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh

I was only wondering why it seems that CCP is totally against even considering micro suggestions from the CSM/playerbase.


A good example of why is during the threadnaught on rockets. There was a formula which we, the players, thought missile damage is derived from. We knew it wasn't "The Official Formula", but from testing it was close enough in results that we pretty much took it as more or less the way it worked.

We posted pages and pages of discussion on rockets based on that formula. There were pros and cons of tweaking it this way and that. Discussions on if the recipe was completely stupid and if we needed to move from Coke to New Coke. People spent hours thinking over that formula.

So a couple years pass, CCP finally announces "We're fixing rockets!". And tucked in that little announcement, deep in the forums, was a little tidbit saying the formula we'd been working off of is nothing like what's actually on the server.

A lot of time, as players, we work from knowledge we think is true. But it actually isn't.

Strazdas Unstoppable
Posted - 2011.04.19 14:25:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Strazdas Unstoppable on 19/04/2011 14:26:57
Originally by: garus banta
Come on guys a bittorent file?

Can't you just upload the mp3 to youtube?



Maybe its time to learn to use the most efffective file sharing way?

Now this was their first session, and its not like they are going to give you explicit detail for 2 hours. they would run out of things to speak the next month. Sure it could have covered more facts. afterall this is a sort of CSM report to the general public, but CSM are people like you and me.

Carlos82
Minmatar
United Systems Navy
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:17:00 - [83]
 

Just checking in to say this was very informative and that the CSM has my support. A Fireside chat like this is a very good way to reach lots of people who'd otherwise only really notice the CSM's presence around election time. Mittani did speak like 80-90% of the time (especially later in the Q&A session more of the other CSM were talking), maybe to avoid controversy a bit the others should get more speaking time too.

The macro approach seems like the best way to use the CSMīs arguably limited resources. Good to see CCP Veritas is picking up on the Time Dilation thing, letīs see where it goes.
Anyways.. Keep up the good work, I'm so far content with how I voted :)

Mike deVoid
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:43:00 - [84]
 

Can I suggest a the production of a variety of signatures people can used to visibly support the CSM in every post they make. Obviously, different flavours should be make available ;).

William Pullman
Posted - 2011.04.19 18:27:00 - [85]
 

I listened to it today, pretty good. Very positive. I like the approach this CSM is taking.

One small request though - please cut down on the profanity!

Merouk Baas
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.19 23:13:00 - [86]
 

That was very good.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.04.20 03:37:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
if you think the csm isn't valid because i say '****', there's no hope for you anyway vOv


invalid argument, the CSM was invalid before you said ****

Celtic Deamon
Caldari
Stellae Fixae
One Power
Posted - 2011.04.20 16:38:00 - [88]
 

I'm quite happy with Mittins talking most of the time. Rather you hate him or like him, he is a figure that people recognize almost instantly.People who want the other CSM members to talk, I'm sure that can be arranged in following chats, for for this one let it go.

As for professionalism, if being gay for each other and making **** jokes gets to job done and even gets talks with CCP to open up, go for it.

rantuket
Caldari
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.04.21 01:23:00 - [89]
 

Thanks for putting this up and going to the effort of getting this organised in the first place.

Having a listen now.

Mrs Trzzbk
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.21 02:48:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: William Pullman

One small request though - please cut down on the profanity!


Never.


Also all of your credit for the greatness of the Q&A session, give it to me. GIVE IT TO ME.


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