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blankseplocked CSM 6 April 2011 - QA Session Replay With Notes [Official]
 
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VaMei
Posted - 2011.04.17 22:35:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: VaMei on 17/04/2011 22:39:50
I like the CSM's focus on improving the way CCP maintains the larger game vs. focusing on specific hot button issues. Diemost, dreads, hybrids, Ewar, Supercarriers, FW, Mining and any other ship, module or feature complaint are symptoms of the bigger problem that is the lack of ongoing itteration by CCP. As The Mittani said, this game is full of 'sucking wounds'. Focusing on any one of those wounds isn't focusing on the bigger problem. Team BFF has shown some real results from the Thousand Papercuts perspective and has actually improved gameplay, the only thing players actually see. I can only hope that CCP's management is open to taking that process to the next level.

As a benifit, by directly focusing on improving CCP's process, and improving Eve indirectly, the CSM can avoid the appearance of bias on specific issues. Anything that improves the CSM's legitimacy to the players is IMO a good thing.

Mike deVoid
Firebird Squadron
Terra-Incognita
Posted - 2011.04.17 22:40:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Doggsbody
Originally by: Lord Zim

Originally by: Doggsbody
What the hell was that?! No one apart from Mittani was allowed to speak?!

This was covered in the session, at least once.


Um, no. A paper thin 'reason' was given, but the fact that even when Mittens was asked questions about things he admitted to knowing nothing about he didn't even think to hand it over to one of the others.

Why? Doesn't he trust the other candidates to speak sensibly? He is only one voice on the CSM after all.




But they did speak. And they also said that they would have no hesitation speaking up if something was said they disagreed with or was not covered. So what's the problem again?

FinnAgain Zero
Roving Guns Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.17 22:46:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Mike deVoid
So what's the problem again?


A combination of the Dunning-Kruger Effect and the prevalence of lead based paint.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.04.17 22:53:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Mr LaForge on 17/04/2011 22:56:14
nvm, I'm an idiot

Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
Posted - 2011.04.17 23:08:00 - [35]
 

Interesting talk, made me re-evaluate my preconceptions of Goons/NC (Mittens has all the braincells)
Really like the focus and the direction. You showed an understanding that this is a business you are dealing with and retaining that concept is key to successful negotiations. I hope that you will not get sidetracked.

Well done

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.17 23:26:00 - [36]
 

Dang, now I have to start thinking Mittani is secretly evil instead of openly evil. Evil or Very Mad

One of the things talked about was documentation. I just wanted to point out that EVE is quite well documented, even officially, through the STAR team. The fact that the STAR team's on going official documentation seems to receive less official support than some 3rd party one concerns me. Why does the in-game help screen send you to the knowledge base that CCP claimed was going to be retired when the Evelopedia came out? Why does that search not send new players to the much more useful Evelopedia? In what other ways are the ISD teams (which have been in place a lot longer than the CSM) not being supported by CCP?

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.04.18 01:51:00 - [37]
 

I like Mittens. Mittens are cool in both the clothing form and the CSM form. he spoke warmly and fuzzily.

Ok in all seriousness I look forward to more of these Q&As because I gained alot of insight and was happy with the issues that were brought up. I'm satisfied with the CSM as a whole and even though Mittani was the only one to really speak for most of it, with the others chiming in, I can see that he has forged this CSM into a very effective and unified front and that is something I am glad to see.

Meadowvale
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.18 02:22:00 - [38]
 

Thanks for the link to download the Fireside chat audio. Can the CSM request CCP to include the Fireside chats in the Eve Gate calendar. The Facebook notification was posted at least an hour after the fireside chat began.

Gimpb
The Scope
Posted - 2011.04.18 03:36:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Gimpb on 18/04/2011 03:37:58
I'm pretty impressed that they seem to have developed cohesion and solid positions on so many issues so quickly.

I also like the way they're approaching the game balance issue. They're very much right that eve just doesn't get the constant fine tuning that happens in most high-caliber multiplayer games. Improving this in the way the CSM is suggesting seems very much within reach and I really hope CCP takes action on this input.

Habaticus
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 05:06:00 - [40]
 

I have not been a supporter of this CSM, in fact I've posted some negative projections of what I thought might happen. Can't tell about the future, but the macro over micro approach almost seems obvious as the right way to present issues to CCP. I must admit my opinion has changed. In my humble opinion a most impressive intro of the CSM6 to the EVE Community.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.18 05:48:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Marconus Orion on 18/04/2011 05:48:53
Originally by: Lord Zim
Originally by: Draco Llasa
Originally by: Lord Zim
Edited by: Lord Zim on 17/04/2011 07:38:16
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Why do you list the anomaly change as a scandal?

Because Hilmar said there would be MORE communication about how things were going to change, and that anom nerf was deployed without communicating to any of the CSMs?


Yes, this is why it was labeled as a scandal, i believe it was covered in detail during The Mitanni's talk.

It was covered in detail during the mittani's talk (multiple times in fact, I believe). Marconus Orion is just one of Those Guys.


Forgive me for asking a simple question while at work instead of dropping everything I was doing to run off and connect to mumble hosted by goonswarm for a totally unbiased slant on the CSM where I get to hear all of the members and not just two hours of Mittani stroking himself.

Run-on sentence is a go!

Helena Russell Makanen
Posted - 2011.04.18 05:55:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Helena Russell Makanen on 18/04/2011 06:01:52
Edited by: Helena Russell Makanen on 18/04/2011 05:57:43
It was exactly what I thought it would be, mittens talking about mostly null sec issues (wonder why), glossing over anything difficult or contrary to his 'place' in the eve world with 'I don't know anything about that', insulting past CSM's, but mainly masturbating in front of a mirror as he listened to his own voice droning on and on and on and on and on.

Pro-Tip - when so many against you it's pretty stupid to hog the conversation 99% of the time. Yeah that showed real cohesion in the CSM. The only time anyone else got to speak was if mittens was clueless. Or on such important matters as what sandwich they enjoyed in Iceland. Wow - that's sure important. But it was an excuse to insult someone respectable who doesn't go to Iceland just to drink yah? How witty.

Wrong way to go about it dude. Chairman has certain responsibilities yes, but twisting that into making the CSM broadcast into the 'mittens show' was pretty damn dumb - and selfish.

If anyone is interested in how long mittens can dominate a broadcast - current record is 2 hours minus 1%. Am sure that record will be beaten in the next, or he will learn from this mistake. Hope so. My guess is he will learn, but not enough. Next go around they might get 2%.

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.18 06:01:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Helena Russell Makanen
Edited by: Helena Russell Makanen on 18/04/2011 05:57:43
It was exactly what I thought it would be, mittens talking about mostly null sec issues (wonder why), glossing over anything difficult or contrary to his 'place' in the eve world with 'I don't know anything about that', insulting past CSM's, but mainly masturbating in front of a mirror as he listened to his own voice droning on and on and on and on and on.

Pro-Tip - when so many against you it's pretty stupid to hog the conversation 99% of the time. Yeah that showed real cohesion in the CSM. The only time anyone else got to speak was if mittens was clueless. Or on such important matters as what sandwich they enjoyed in Iceland. Wow - that's sure important.

Wrong way to go about it dude. Chairman has certain responsibilities yes, but twisting that into making the CSM broadcast into the 'mittens show' was pretty damn dumb - and selfish.

If anyone is interested in how long mittens can dominate a broadcast - current record is 2 hours minus 1%. Am sure that record will be beaten in the next, or he will learn from this mistake. Hope so. My guess is he will learn, but not enough. Next go around they might get 2%.


They might get 2%, but the broadcast will run extra time to make sure mittens still gets his fill.

Jacque Cruix
Posted - 2011.04.18 06:24:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Draco Llasa
Originally by: Lord Zim
Edited by: Lord Zim on 17/04/2011 07:38:16
Because Hilmar said there would be MORE communication about how things were going to change, and that anom nerf was deployed without communicating to any of the CSMs?


Yes, this is why it was labeled as a scandal, i believe it was covered in detail during The Mitanni's talk.


CCP doesn't need to tell the CSM everything and never should. Also,"more communication" doesn't mean "everything".

Trying to classify this as a scandal is rather petty and belittles the true scandals that have happened, which have been rather few in number.

This is just players trying to fan the flames to try and get what they want.
Normally happens with unpopular changes

Such drama from the CSM will only marginalize it.




Skah Seraph
Posted - 2011.04.18 06:29:00 - [45]
 

Lol at Mittens expounding on his speculations as to what "flavor" the Eve economist is. Is he old school "homo economocist"? Or more modern behavioral cognitive blah blah blah"?

Next. Oh wait no, someone else wanted to talk...

Just joshin' ya. It was a good talk and you guys cleared up some misconceptions I had Very Happy

mkint
Posted - 2011.04.18 07:03:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Jacque Cruix
Originally by: Draco Llasa
Originally by: Lord Zim
Edited by: Lord Zim on 17/04/2011 07:38:16
Because Hilmar said there would be MORE communication about how things were going to change, and that anom nerf was deployed without communicating to any of the CSMs?


Yes, this is why it was labeled as a scandal, i believe it was covered in detail during The Mitanni's talk.


CCP doesn't need to tell the CSM everything and never should. Also,"more communication" doesn't mean "everything".

Trying to classify this as a scandal is rather petty and belittles the true scandals that have happened, which have been rather few in number.

This is just players trying to fan the flames to try and get what they want.
Normally happens with unpopular changes

Such drama from the CSM will only marginalize it.



The "scandal" about it is that CCP put the news up about it while people were on the airplanes to fanfest, refused to talk about it at fanfest, refuse to have any dialog about it after fanfest, and are ignoring even the legitimate questions and feedback. It's not really that CCP is making an unpopular decision so much as they trying to hide from that decision, and it possibly lying about the decision (depending on your favorite conspiracy theory.) In fact the devs in general appear to be laying low and on the defensive on the forums these past few weeks. I think most of the devs know that it was an absolutely stupid idea but some scrub made the change already and there aren't processes in place in the growing company for everybody to tell him how stupid he is.

"Scandal" may be a little bit strong of a word for the nerf itself. "Embarrassment" sounds more appropriate for the nerf itself, and "scandal" the way it was implemented.

Caneb
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.18 08:24:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Skah Seraph
Lol at Mittens expounding on his speculations as to what "flavor" the Eve economist is. Is he old school "homo economocist"? Or more modern behavioral cognitive blah blah blah"?


Just to be clear, Homo Economicus is not a gay joke as much as it sounds like it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus :science:

In brief it's a theory in economic studies, based on humans being cold-headed rational beings who will always make the best decision that serves their own needs. Nowadays it's largely regarded as incorrect because humans in general are emptional, irrational and lack the macroeconomic insight to make the "best" decisions.

Budsin Adar
Posted - 2011.04.18 11:38:00 - [48]
 

as for that file system it does not work on my computer make it easy okayYARRRR!!

VaMei
Posted - 2011.04.18 11:58:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: VaMei on 18/04/2011 13:41:12
Originally by: Budsin Adar
as for that file system it does not work on my computer make it easy okayYARRRR!!


The "Download" button is for Torrent users. If your old school like me, use the smaller direct download just below it. That'll give you an MP3.

SmallIsaxx
Posted - 2011.04.18 12:11:00 - [50]
 

Remember guys, the CSM are people who either failed at life because they didn't realise that swearing is very unprofessional, or that making childish jokes is also rather unprofessional. Oh well, another failed CSM. The chairman takes command of the meeting but does not give anyone any room to speak. Either they don't have any education or they didn't pay any attention during their lectures.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.04.18 12:53:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Jacque Cruix
which have been rather few in number.



lol ok...

But the ones they have are impressive
Im guessing you ignore most of the things that go on in this game then

Halycon Gamma
Caldari
The Flying Tigers
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.18 12:56:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Halycon Gamma on 18/04/2011 13:01:39
I like the idea of time dilation, but the lag I experienced in the only fleet fight I ever participated in has kept me away from them for years now.

I like the idea of a couple devs devoted to constant balance iteration of ships.

I agree feature abandonment is one of the biggest problems with Eve. Devs seem to treat features as the "theme parks" that other games use, build and forget. But we don't have theme parks in Eve, we have tools to play in the sandbox with; some of which are defective.

Documentation does need to be better, but I badly disagree with the idea of the ISK Book getting the attention it is. That stuff needs to be in game, or at least easily found on the Evelopedia. License, buy, or steal the thing and give it its own button on the neocom. I don't want to tell new players to go out and buy a book, or to download such and such PDF. I want to tell them "Click on that button, then go to this section." Until documentation is easily found without having to fire up google, its a fail.

I disagree greatly with the slant of all these issues by the CSM though. The number one problem with EvE is PVE. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the vast majority of EvE players are going to do some sort of PVE on a daily basis. Shoot a belt rat, do a mission, mine some ore, run a complex, something. Its almost inescapable to not do some form of PVE. Its the foundation for which all other things you do in EvE are built, in that it supplies you the isk to do them.

I've quit eve, came back, quit eve, came back, and I'll probably quit again. And its always for the exact same reasons that I quit. I do not want to slog through hours of unfun things to do a single hour of something fun.

The way it was glossed over in 4-5 minutes of "that's something far outside of anything which could be accomplished during our tenure" just aggravated me greatly.

Rinah
STORM Squad
Posted - 2011.04.18 14:03:00 - [53]
 

This is great. Very informative and funny listening to u guys.

This record should be properly promoted, explains very well what CSM is about and what u are trying to achieve. Because from the perspective of the casual player CSM looks like a bunch of mega corp/alliance leaders or representatives pushing their own agendas. And they are probably asking themselves why should i care what those guys have to say.

So rly i heard good things keep the good work.

P.S.

Originally by: SmallIsaxx
Remember guys, the CSM are people who either failed at life because they didn't realise that swearing is very unprofessional, or that making childish jokes is also rather unprofessional. Oh well, another failed CSM. The chairman takes command of the meeting but does not give anyone any room to speak. Either they don't have any education or they didn't pay any attention during their lectures.


They are professional enough considering this is a computer game.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:24:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Halycon Gamma


I agree feature abandonment is one of the biggest problems with Eve. Devs seem to treat features as the "theme parks" that other games use, build and forget. But we don't have theme parks in Eve, we have tools to play in the sandbox with; some of which are defective.



Ive always seen it like this;

They bring out a feature, see if ppl use it and decide if its worth putting time into the feature and ironing out the bugs, cause if most ppl dont use the feature, they dont see any reason to devote development cycles to it as noone uses it.

Not saying thats a good thing mind you, just the way they seem to handle such things.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:26:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 18/04/2011 15:26:51
I'm really happy to see the direction the CSM6 is headed in so far. More communication, more open channels, more of a sense of direction and seriousness about the job. Thanks for holding the fireside and posting it up.

But I do have to say that a whole lot more professionalism needs to be put in place. I don't mind the F-bombs and whatnot, but using the word "re-tarded" 100 times, schlong jokes, stupid comments about Jewish last names? Offensive and totally unnecessary. This isn't your alliance teamspeak. The CSM is a very public representation of the player base, please treat all public communications with a lot more professionalism.

Rinah
STORM Squad
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:45:00 - [56]
 

IMO CSM work is voluntary they do not get paid, so they should act as they like with some borders. Can they have at least that? As i said above this is only a game. We have enough of the long speech boring kind of guys in the real world.

They are probably much more formal and considerate when communicating with CCP staff to represent us. Or am i wrong Razz

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:56:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Rinah
IMO CSM work is voluntary they do not get paid, so they should act as they like with some borders.


I'm not sure why the lack of pay is relevant. They took on a job that makes them representatives of 350k players in a very public way, and they should treat that position with respect and a level of professionalism that was lacking in many ways on this call.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:58:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 18/04/2011 15:58:43
On another note, one thing I heard brought up over and over on the call is that CCP will not listen to "micro detail change suggestions". Can I ask, why not? Is it an ego thing amongst the game designers? I would think they'd be open to taking ideas and suggestions no matter how "micro" they are. I understand that the big picture suggestions are easier for them to digest and respond to, but ignoring all micro suggestions is just...lame.

Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.18 15:58:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Rinah
IMO CSM work is voluntary they do not get paid, so they should act as they like with some borders.


I'm not sure why the lack of pay is relevant. They took on a job that makes them representatives of 350k players in a very public way, and they should treat that position with respect and a level of professionalism that was lacking in many ways on this call.

Unlike the misc rap songs CCP have made the past few years, with a peachy white and fat technoviking, or "the beer ship"?

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.18 16:01:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Lord Zim
Originally by: J Kunjeh
Originally by: Rinah
IMO CSM work is voluntary they do not get paid, so they should act as they like with some borders.


I'm not sure why the lack of pay is relevant. They took on a job that makes them representatives of 350k players in a very public way, and they should treat that position with respect and a level of professionalism that was lacking in many ways on this call.

Unlike the misc rap songs CCP have made the past few years, with a peachy white and fat technoviking, or "the beer ship"?


Yeah, you have a point there, but this was a thread about the CSM's fireside chat, not CCP. I'm not saying it needs to be PG-13 or anything, I'm just fine with adult chat and humor, I just think that some of the discussion was more akin to listening to an alliance team speak and not really professional for a representative body.


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