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Ripard Teg
Whitestone Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.17 23:48:00 - [31]
 

One of the amusing big-ass holes in the CSM White Paper is that the CSM is not required to have any meetings at all.

IF there ARE meetings, the Secretary is required to document them and publish minutes to the players. But meetings themselves? Nope, nothing in the White Paper saying they have to happen. It just lays out a "recommended guideline" for meeting frequency. It also says the Chair and Vice Chair "may" summon the other representatives to these meetings. And of course, there's notes about the sorts of things that should happen at these meetings, if they happen.

Interestingly, it also specifies that a meeting is only valid if there are seven representatives present. So Mittens can pull together five other reps on Skype, they can chat about something of note, and then break up a) without it being considered a meeting, and b) without the Secretary having to document it.

So, what CSM6 is doing is all perfectly legal.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.04.17 23:50:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Darius III
Originally by: Boogaloo
Sad to see Mittani and co already making this whole thing into a big in joke. Listened to the whole of the Q&A and was struck by the fact that it was depressing to see it all being so one sided, and now even the announcement of officers is done purely to amuse Mittani's corpmates.



I promise you I am alone in the CSM, in not kissing the nether regions of Mittani. They are lined up like followers adoring the Budda. Makes me sick. I am definitely outsider on the CSM this year, which is good as I won't catch space Herpes from them. Bunch of hypocrite windbags if you ask me. Remember all the candidates promises? Kiss them goodbye. Botters/Macros get stopped? All credit to CCP in the extremely unlikely event it happens.

Most of CSM mostly so far looking to get in bed with CCP and the ever widening circle-jerk continues. UAxDEATH and Kruton are seemingly immune to the PH balanced perfume of Mittens though, maybe next year as full members we will form dissent coalition within CSM. Sorry carebears-your concerns are going unnoticed.



Dude, you should have paid a little more attention... Agreeing on a position after days of continuous discussion does not make us pushovers. In addition to which we already were mostly in agreement with what needs fixing anyway (not necessarily how, but that's where the discussion came in, progress was made and compromises were reached).

Mittani has absolutely no hold on me, what does he have that I want? What could he threaten me with (I'm already shooting goons in-game)?

I'll be very happy to listen to any and all the so-called "carebear issues", and if you had paid attention, darius, you'd know that there's actually no opposition from the 0.0 delegates to the highsec/lowsec proposals. Because those are not their primary concern doesn't mean they are incapable of holding constructive conversations about them, agreeing with the topics raised and supporting them if they're reasonable.

But if anyone thinks the 0.0 delegates are going to block non-0.0 proposals that have merit, you'll just have to wait and see.
And either way, my evemail is open and I accept all convos if anyone has an AH proposal they want to bring the attention of the CSM to.

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.04.18 00:40:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Seleene on 18/04/2011 00:41:01
Originally by: Ripard Teg
Interestingly, it also specifies that a meeting is only valid if there are seven representatives present. So Mittens can pull together five other reps on Skype, they can chat about something of note, and then break up a) without it being considered a meeting, and b) without the Secretary having to document it.

So, what CSM6 is doing is all perfectly legal.


Thus far I've not seen Mittens trying to 'sneak' anything past the rest of us. Hell, the guy posts and talks constantly. He asks a ridiculous amount of questions of the other delegates opinions and about past CSM processes and we've all started to work on ways that we think things might work better / differently.

I guess what people fail to realize is that I'm in a "meeting" right now with 6 other CSM members on Skype. We're actually discussing topics for the May CSM summit and the current discussion is heavily focused on improving the game for newbies. Ten minutes from now it might be about World of Tanks so, yeah, it's all about titans and jump bridges. Razz Smile

This has been happening almost every day for three weeks now. I just leave Skype on and when I get up in the morning I read all of the :words: that I missed and if I see something fascist or crazy, I bring it up and say, "Guys, wtf is this ****? Let's talk some more about it!" Because we're all complete wall of text *****s everyone is happy to re-engage until a consensus is reached.

Seriously? Seven of the Nine of us are noobs at this Council thing, so we're going to put our own spin on it. I honestly have no idea how many 'formal' meetings that CSM6 is going to have. Obviously we are going to want to get some specific stuff on the record and we're going to have to adjust our processes for that. At the moment however, we're going 300 kph and are constantly trying to think of new ways that we can take the CSM to the next level in terms of effectiveness and community interaction. I think that part of the problem is that the community is used to seeing the CSM act or conduct itself in a certain way, we're trying a few new things and because Mittens is involved some folks are all, "Zomg they are all Goon puppets!" Neutral

At this point I am content to just let speculation run rampant while I continue to work with the other CSM members as we keep pulling Mittens back from [insert bad activity here... like eating babies]. In the end, we'll be judged by our record in office. So far, I am optimistic.

As for the content of this thread, the Vice Chair position was mine if I wanted it but Killer 2 suggested that we might want to make it clear that we are not solely 0.0 focused by putting someone else in the slot. I didn't really care because the position itself doesn't really matter unless Mittens gets hit by a bus and I like being a team player so, **** it, why not?

In all seriousness though, we did consider naming the Ferox battlecruiser as the Vice Secretary. I have chat logs to prove it.

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.18 00:43:00 - [34]
 

vice secretary candidates put forward thus far:

the ferox
my puppy
the 152mm derp gun on the KV-2
a Roomba

Ripard Teg
Whitestone Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.18 01:10:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Seleene
Thus far I've not seen Mittens trying to 'sneak' anything past the rest of us. Hell, the guy posts and talks constantly. He asks a ridiculous amount of questions of the other delegates opinions and about past CSM processes and we've all started to work on ways that we think things might work better / differently.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply anything of the kind. Exactly the opposite, in fact.

Originally by: Seleene
I guess what people fail to realize is that I'm in a "meeting" right now with 6 other CSM members on Skype. We're actually discussing topics for the May CSM summit and the current discussion is heavily focused on improving the game for newbies.

Yes, by a strict interpretation of the White Paper, since you're making EVE-related decisions and there are seven of you present, what you're in right now is a CSM6 meeting.

The interesting part: if it is a meeting, then the Secretary should be documenting it and recording who was there.

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.04.18 01:24:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
vice secretary candidates put forward thus far:

the ferox
my puppy
the 152mm derp gun on the KV-2
a Roomba


OOH i vote for Roomba.. its Excellent at keeping track of the dirt we spew..
i wait.. i mean you spew.. we are all mindless bumbling idiots that blindly follow you and have no opinions of our own..

I guess you can keep it busy... :)

Extreme
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.04.18 01:37:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Extreme on 18/04/2011 01:43:32

In all honesty i think you guys have an image problem that you need to work on.

That doesn't say you guys are doing a bad job or anything it's just ... that you guys have an image problem.

Maybe a bit less arrogance from Mittani too (at least he has that image of being arrogant).

I'm sorry but i'm just pointing the finger on the sore spots.

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.18 01:48:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Extreme
Edited by: Extreme on 18/04/2011 01:43:32

In all honesty i think you guys have an image problem that you need to work on.

That doesn't say you guys are doing a bad job or anything it's just ... that you guys have an image problem.

Maybe a bit less arrogance from Mittani too (at least he has that image of being arrogant).

I'm sorry but i'm just pointing the finger on the sore spots.


You ran a hysterical, ignorant and barely literate campaign as Ms Pacman; I think I'll ignore any advice from you about image problems.

Harold Tuphlos
Posted - 2011.04.18 05:08:00 - [39]
 

This is hilarious. Serious Internet Spaceship Politics is Very Serious. Err, a game.




P.s. The puppy is the obvious choice as it will actually do something with the minutes.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.18 09:26:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Harold Tuphlos
P.s. The puppy is the obvious choice as it will actually do something with the minutes.

From past experience, there will be a long line of people waiting for their turn to do the same thing.

White Tree
Gallente
Broski Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.04.18 10:41:00 - [41]
 

CCP Sreegs is responsible for this PR disaster!!!

Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.18 12:31:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Seleene
In all seriousness though, we did consider naming the Ferox battlecruiser as the Vice Secretary.


Long awaited Ferox buff spotted.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.04.18 17:04:00 - [43]
 

And then they wonder why the CSM has a certain image.


Bomberlocks
Minmatar
CTRL-Q
Posted - 2011.04.18 18:19:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: The Mittani
To be honest, I don't know if CCP Sreegs can hold down such a critical post effectively.

We're going to have to evaluate his employment on an ongoing basis, to ensure that the crucial position of Vice Secretary is given the respect and consideration that the position deserves.


Very Happy Bread and circuses! CSM6 doesn't fail to disappoint.

BTW, I heard that Ankh is back in EVE and she would make a really good secretary of vice.

Darius III
Caldari
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.04.19 13:44:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Seleene
I totally gave up the Vice Chair position because Meissa is a big cry baby. True story.


Told you I'd resign if I didn't get it... I got it, it's all that matters. I deserve some epeen!


Sounds like we would be better off without you. and your "my way or I quit" mentality.... too bad you didn't resign.

Seriously folks the current CSM crop should have been left to wither on the vine. I will say that Trebor, Wipe Tree and Vile Hat, in addition to Kruton and UAXdeaf for their part-have the same sized heads as they had pre-election. Even if UAx didn't pay me the 50 BN isk we agreed on to sabotage Geminate operations-he is still OK guy, and Kruton makes my salad crunchy so how could I complain about him?

CCP is getting what they wanted though-more publicity and more interest in the CSM. The Mittani with his "strong enough for a man-made for a woman" mentality is getting the job done, and while he may be "PH balanced" his enormous ego will push the CSM to new heights and lows, in terms of publicity and popularity.

Should be an interesting year for the CSM as well as those that follow them. Seleene would have been much better Vice Chair than some whiner douchette that threatens to withdraw because it couldnt get it's way. (it rubs the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again)

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.04.19 14:15:00 - [46]
 

Ummm... that was sarcasm, dude. Confused

Draco Llasa
Thundercats
Posted - 2011.04.19 14:16:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Darius III
Seleene would have been much better Vice Chair than some whiner douchette that threatens to withdraw because it couldnt get it's way. (it rubs the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again)


it was a joke..
Please good sir.. please put down the mouse and step away from the keyboard.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.19 14:50:00 - [48]
 

I'm all for innovation and driving for results, though I have to admit that the informal nature of what CSM6 has planned is somewhat concerning. I don't doubt that there will be quite a fair bit of conversation and thorough picking apart issues to reach a consensus... what I am worried about is the lack of transparency whether actual or perceived.

As an example, the community at large could see when CSM5 was meeting, how often, the topics scheduled for the meeting, the outcome of those discussions, and other such accountabilities. With the informal processes mentioned, how does CSM6 plan to keep us in the loop? I would assume this concern is what gave rise to the "fireside" chats; I'm hoping to dig into that sometime over the weekend.

I'm willing to give CSM6 the benefit of the doubt (why does that sound grammatically awful?). It's new, bridges haven't yet been crossed and I can't just go into :tinfoilhat: mode right out of the gate (wouldn't be fair). Still though, cautiously watching before I get my stockings in a twist.


Comments from the delegates?

White Tree
Gallente
Broski Federation
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2011.04.19 15:10:00 - [49]
 

The Fireside Chats act as a public forum and a give and take regarding CSM6's thought process. We're open to altering our objectives based on information that is posted here, or is relayed back through the Fireside Chats.

As for the reasoning behind the level of concern with regards to our persistent skype conversation; I don't follow the logic. The CSM are entitled to their privacy with matters relating to documents which may fall under NDA.

As far as I am concerned, the backlash it is simply an extension of the inherent distrust expressed by members of the playbase when it comes to the nature of CSM6. Most of which is entirely unfounded and is often a simple case of judging the individual based on the actions of a group, something that is frowned upon in, I dunno, human society as a whole.

CSM6 is entirely dedicated to the process and have taken steps to keep both themselves and the playerbase informed on a level that no other CSM in the history of the establishment ever has.

That being said, there are going to be individuals who outright refuse to see what good work is done based on internalized bias. If our actions cannot speak louder than their words then I, personally, have no interest in maintaining a dialog with them.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:53:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Johnathan Walker
I'm all for innovation and driving for results, though I have to admit that the informal nature of what CSM6 has planned is somewhat concerning. I don't doubt that there will be quite a fair bit of conversation and thorough picking apart issues to reach a consensus... what I am worried about is the lack of transparency whether actual or perceived.

As an example, the community at large could see when CSM5 was meeting, how often, the topics scheduled for the meeting, the outcome of those discussions, and other such accountabilities. With the informal processes mentioned, how does CSM6 plan to keep us in the loop? I would assume this concern is what gave rise to the "fireside" chats; I'm hoping to dig into that sometime over the weekend.

I'm willing to give CSM6 the benefit of the doubt (why does that sound grammatically awful?). It's new, bridges haven't yet been crossed and I can't just go into :tinfoilhat: mode right out of the gate (wouldn't be fair). Still though, cautiously watching before I get my stockings in a twist.


Comments from the delegates?


Most of the time we have spent so far has not been on indiviual issues, but rather on the general process, what we should focus on for the first session in terms of topics, not in term of stance (though we do share a stance on most issues), about communication, how to accomplish things, etc.

There will be issue meetings with raw conversation logs, but what we have done so far amounts to what every CSM in the past has done through emails and informal conversations.

The difference is that CSM 6 is doing much much more of that.

Blake Zacary
Volatile Nature
White Noise.
Posted - 2011.04.19 17:03:00 - [51]
 

I think most people want a fully transparent and open CSM crann bán.I have to say the 'fire side chat' was a great start,though I would like to hear more from the other CSM reps.I think something that concerns a lot of people is the lack of information that the player base gets from these informal meetings you have on skype etc,etc.Where you have regular discussions which are neither recorded nor made public.We need to be able to see exactly how each of the CSM reps are doing their jobs,to be able to judge them and see if they are really worthy of holding that position.

The distrust part to be fair has been earned,as we've all seen the forum hype from certain voting blocks who's main aim was to try and stop changes they saw as being detrimental to their coalitions and style of play.Rather than doing what the CSM is supposed to,which is “greatest good for the greater player base”.Even if that means pushing for changes that are detrimental to some but balance the game as a whole and make it better and more fun.

For example the 'Time Dialation' seems more geared towards helping massive coalitions cram as many people as possible into one system at one focal point.Instead of looking at ways to bring forward a truely epic scenario.Where we get dramatic end game fights involving power blocks clashing full on over a massive battle front in multipul areas.Where a whole variety of different tactics can be used and come into play from sabotage and guerrilla warfare behind enemy lines to logistical interception,stopping your enemy from being able to resupply it's front lines etc,etc.Time dialation does look to have some benefits(cutting down lag).Though it has the potential to bring some added problems(the game will be slowed down but our real time reactions won't,will this lead to battles lasting hours that end in a stalemate as we will be able to react in real time to getting yellow boxed).

Anyway so far things seem to be going ok though not ideal.We just need more open information passed down to the player base,within reason of course.

Extreme
Eye of God
Intergalactic Exports Group
Posted - 2011.04.19 22:56:00 - [52]
 

I'm lost in counting all the jokes made by CSM-6 in this thread but as a comedy team you guys suck and i prefer comedy central instead, or the muppetshow.

So please do what you guys are trying to be good in, to be councillors of stellar management.


Jessie42
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.20 21:44:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Jessie42 on 20/04/2011 21:50:58
Cripes some of you ***gots are the worst.


Dalketh
Posted - 2011.04.21 05:08:00 - [54]
 

Well reading all this has given me a headache. Sorry I can't pay any more attention to it. Goon supporters or whoever fire at me if you will - this is a huge mess and a joke - and a year of this no one else will pay attention either.

Johnathan Walker
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.21 07:46:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: White Tree
As for the reasoning behind the level of concern with regards to our persistent skype conversation; I don't follow the logic. The CSM are entitled to their privacy with matters relating to documents which may fall under NDA.


I am not disputing that certain conversations and the topics contained within will be under NDA obligations. I am more concerned that the perception of "official" meetings which are not covered by the NDA will fall through the cracks and not be documented, resulting in a lack of both transparency and community engagement. As I mentioned before, the community has come to expect a certain level of disclosure as part of being kept in the "loop". Meissa's further explanation about using different methods to handle "day to day" business pretty much ties this one up in a nice package and addresses the concern. I think we can move on from that point.

Quote:

As far as I am concerned, the backlash it is simply an extension of the inherent distrust expressed by members of the playbase when it comes to the nature of CSM6.



What I hear you saying is that raising concerns about how CSM6 is run/will operate is somehow a manifestation of conspiracy theories based on in-game stuff? In other words, you're telling us that our concerns are not valid and that we're just scared because "oooh evil <insert block here> is in power, run for your lives!". I don't believe this is fair, accurate nor profesional; it says that we're too insignificant to put aside other issues and focus on bigger concerns. How arrogant.

Quote:

CSM6 is entirely dedicated to the process and have taken steps to keep both themselves and the playerbase informed on a level that no other CSM in the history of the establishment ever has.



Awesome! What kind of steps? Not asking for a detailed list but even a high-level overview. We can see things like Fireside being a huge success. Anything else that has already been achieved, even in the short time span since official election to CSM6? I would believe it reasonable to assume we can expect further awesomeness in the near future; we do after all have to give you all time ;)


Quote:

That being said, there are going to be individuals who outright refuse to see what good work is done based on internalized bias. If our actions cannot speak louder than their words then I, personally, have no interest in maintaining a dialog with them.


Tough call here; we know there's always going to be someone who will disagree just for the sake of disagreement and to cause chaos. That said, by what guidelines does CSM6 decide what is legitimate concern/constructive criticism and what is just "spam"? Combined with the commentary about "backlash", I'm not exactly convinced nor sold on supporting the efforts of CSM6. If what we're going to have is a term of council that arbitrarily decides what is and is not "legitimate", we might as well just call it a day now. It's easily negated by developing a few key deliverables or achievements to complete before the term is up; we saw such efforts by CSM5 with the CCP Deliverables, as well as CSM Deliverables. We started treating CSM as project management, rather than free trips to Iceland. I'm hoping we see more of that, and not just throwing things into the can because it's "some conspiracy theorist again". (granted, we're going to have fluff that belongs in the trash, even into CSM 50,000) ...



@ Meissa: Thanks for your summary and deeper explanation; well done.

Hroya
Posted - 2011.04.21 17:04:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: The Mittani CSM6 isn't particularly interested in titles beyond the ones 'with teeth', we're more concerned with getting things done.[/quote


That's the only thing that matters.

Names mean nothing, neihter do looks or fancy wording.
Get things done, that's what matters.

Help make EvE great(er) and represent the playerbase as a whole. It's about continuation of the game in an entertaining manner regardless of your intentions within the EULA.



cerbus
Minor Annoyance...
Posted - 2011.04.21 19:05:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: cerbus on 21/04/2011 19:05:59
This will be the best CSM yet.
sean is a great choice for vice-secretary.

ps. meissa, update your signature to this one.









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