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blankseplocked What the hell is wrong with missle mechanics?!
 
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Enigminer
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:06:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Enigminer on 14/04/2011 13:18:52
Torpedo's speed 4.725m, flight time 8.4s, total travelling distance = 39.700m. Is it enough to hit ship 37km away? According to CCP correct answer is "no": 2 out of 3 (usually 3 out of 4) shots can't reach target.

Fix this, please.

P.S. Context: target is barely moving BS, sometimes torpedos hit it, sometimes - not (means 3 out of 4 shots simply disappear in flight) - it's unpredictable. And somewhat expensive.

Irani Firecam
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:09:00 - [2]
 

Because of acceleration.

Chesty McJubblies
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:10:00 - [3]
 

Maybe the rat moved.

AstarothPrime
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:53:00 - [4]
 

It is because of post 2 + post 3 together.

Always consider 10% off range to be sure or moreless stationary targets. 20% if something is running away.

Frigates and cruisers rushing to you can be 10% further then eft value due to same mechanics.

Regards

I.


stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:01:00 - [5]
 

I've seen that before when testing "actual missile range" formulas. You're right at the edge of the missile's range and you sometimes hit and sometimes not.

Generally speaking, your missile range is ~90% of flight time x speed. Go to this post and follow the links to calculate your effective missile range.

If you want to increase your torpedo range, max out Missile Projection, Missile Bombardment, get 2x Hydraulic Bay Thruster IIs, and (optionally) there's a 5% missile speed implant you can get. That will give your Javelins a 61km effective range, and your T1/Faction torps can hit anything within 40km even if moving at normal speed.


Enigminer
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:05:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Chesty McJubblies
Maybe the rat moved.


Even if target moved - from torpedo's "point of view" it's almost straight line of flight and it cannot become 39.7 instead of 37.0 in just 8 seconds for barely moving (100m/s?) battleship.

Nivalis Dhal
Posted - 2011.04.14 15:26:00 - [7]
 

Also do forget rats use defender missals. And they do it far better then you can ever hope to do so.

Cindy Marco
Minmatar
The Warp Rats
Apotheosis of Virtue
Posted - 2011.04.28 23:44:00 - [8]
 

If you try to use missiles against something at its absolute max range, you are going to miss quite often. Missiles do not fire directly at your target, and they do not start at full speed. They take time to align and accelerate. If your target is moving the missile will have to change its course, and even if its moving away at a slow speed it makes a difference. Over the flight time you posted even a BS with no speed mods will move over 1km.

Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.04.28 23:54:00 - [9]
 

40km torpedo range means 35-36km real range.

Get better skills. You need bombardment V projection V at least on the golem

Also your rigs must both be T2 range rigs. There is no compromise for this.

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2011.04.28 23:58:00 - [10]
 

The answer is primarily due to the fact that torpedoes often do not travel in perfectly linear trajectories. They curve to track a moving target.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.29 01:35:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
The answer is primarily due to the fact that torpedoes often do not travel in perfectly linear trajectories. They curve to track a moving target.


Not necessarily. I saw the "sometimes hit, sometimes miss" thing happen when test firing torps from a stationary ship at a stationary ship.


Hestia Mar
Posted - 2011.04.29 10:04:00 - [12]
 

Well, they are called missiles, not 'hitiles' (words taken from a USAF fighter pilot) - just 'cos you fire them doesn't mean they are going to hit...

Rolling Eyes

HM

Pod Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.29 12:03:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Hestia Mar
Well, they are called missiles, not 'hitiles' (words taken from a USAF fighter pilot) - just 'cos you fire them doesn't mean they are going to hit...

Rolling Eyes

HM


Very Happy

I like this


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.29 14:01:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
The answer is primarily due to the fact that torpedoes often do not travel in perfectly linear trajectories. They curve to track a moving target.
Not necessarily. I saw the "sometimes hit, sometimes miss" thing happen when test firing torps from a stationary ship at a stationary ship.
Even that can be explained by variations in the travel path — after all, they're not just effect that go from A to B, but (almost) fully simulated objects that can get all kinds of weird ideas about how to travel that distance.

I've seen similar situations where the target was well within range, but where maybe just under a second was wasted on the missile taking a little spin around the target before actually hitting. This might not just be desynch, like I thought at the time, but how missiles simply aren't 100% accurate during the last travel tick… That kind of slight miss that requires an extra correction before hitting could easily explain why edge-case missiles fizzle out.

While obviously different, you can see the same behaviour most clearly in defenders, which can actually fail to hit their intended target for long enough to let the missile hit. Not that the missile was too close (that happens too), but that the defender overshoots multiple times so they fail to destroy the incoming missile (at which point the defender just buggers off in some random direction…).

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.29 14:19:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tippia

where maybe just under a second was wasted on the missile taking a little spin around the target before actually hitting.


The little spin wasn't happening when I was testing.

To add insult to injury, in another test I found the maximum consistent range that I could hit the stationary shuttle, and then I set the shuttle to orbit the Raven. The torps, already at their max range, had no problem hitting the moving Raven, which casts doubt on the 'moving target' theory.

My personal theory is that it has something to do with the server heartbeat/tick/cycle.

It looks like Eve uses a lot of floats so you wind up with 8.123456789 type numbers. If Eve's heartbeat is one second (meaning Eve checks things every second,) but if timestamps are in milliseconds (in thousandths of a second) then you might have the case where you fire a quarter of a second into a tick and you lose (or gain) that quarter second when the server runs its calculations on every full second. Example:

00:00:00 - server tick
00:00:00.250 - user fires torpedo (with 9 second flight time)
00:00:01 - server launches torpedo
00:00:02 - server determines if torpedo is out of fuel but uses 00:00:00.250 for the flight time calculations. Thus torpedo has thus been flying for 1.750 seconds.
...
00:00:08 - Is torp out of fuel? Torp has been flying for 7.75 seconds.
00:00:09 - Is torp out of fuel? Torp has been flying for 8.75 seconds. Which rounds up to 9, so the server decides that the torpedo is done flying, and you lose a quarter second of flight time.

Again, personal theory, no real proof.



Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.04.29 14:24:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
My personal theory is that it has something to do with the server heartbeat/tick/cycle.
Probably. It would explain the spins as well, even if that's a different issue.

lordlulzs
Posted - 2011.04.29 18:15:00 - [17]
 

Ppl dun want realism in video games, make it so distance is exact, screw that acceleration crap its only making more load for the already laghy, glitchy and buggy server.


dun care

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2011.04.29 19:21:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tippia
I've seen similar situations where the target was well within range, but where maybe just under a second was wasted on the missile taking a little spin around the target before actually hitting.


I've seen cruise missiles spinning round the target until it expires. This usually happens when I try to blow out an NPC jetcan after destroying structures, almost always when I'm next to the jetcan or close to it.

Based on the observation, it's possible to speculate that by the time the server tick acknowledges the missile distance to target shortly after launch, it had already missed it, so the missile algorithm instructs a re-seek, come next tick, it misses it again and re-seek ... and it goes on until the missile expires. I wonder if ball collision is a pre-requisite for a missile hit (since missiles are small balls by design).

That was the only situation where I've seen a missile miss.

DontScamMeBro
Posted - 2011.04.30 01:16:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: DontScamMeBro on 30/04/2011 01:16:44
Waaaaaaaaahhhhh why isnt my Drake/Tengu/Raven perfect in every way at missions???!?

Kerowyn's
Posted - 2011.04.30 01:45:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: DontScamMeBro
Edited by: DontScamMeBro on 30/04/2011 01:16:44
Waaaaaaaaahhhhh
why isnt my Drake/Tengu/Raven perfect in every way at missions???!?


this


 

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