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Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.11 22:55:00 - [181]
 

Sweet!

Can't wait to have some one on one time with a majority controlled CSM by the NC, who has a goon as the chairman on a goon controlled mumble. This will go well.

It will be curious to see the goon moderators kick/mute anyone who is not of the same thought process they are on issues.

khalleth
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:01:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sweet!

Can't wait to have some one on one time with a majority controlled CSM by the NC, who has a goon as the chairman on a goon controlled mumble. This will go well.

It will be curious to see the goon moderators kick/mute anyone who is not of the same thought process they are on issues.


The way previous addresses by GS leadership at least have worked is that the channel has muted and only one or two people can speak. Questions are messaged (text message-wise) to a nominated person who poses them to the leader who then answers them.

With 1k/2k people in the same channel, it's the only way it can reasonably work.

BurntCornMuffin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:03:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sweet!

Can't wait to have some one on one time with a majority controlled CSM by the NC, who has a goon as the chairman on a goon controlled mumble. This will go well.

It will be curious to see the goon moderators kick/mute anyone who is not of the same thought process they are on issues.


If goon moderators kicked solely for digressing opinions, our alliance would have about 10 pilots in it, 5 of them being alts.

Spooks'em
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:03:00 - [184]
 

Edited by: Spooks''em on 11/04/2011 23:07:17
The first thing I wanted to say is Team Gridlock best Gridlock.

Secondly, Time Dilation is an overdue idea and absolutely essential to the future growth and vibrancy of Eve.

Third, Time Dilation will not fix any of the problems in Eve. It might seem like the perfect solution but if it takes me 9 minutes(~32x time dilation) to cycle my 1400's to keep the game playable I, and many people, are not going to be playing Eve for very long.

Lastly, it is good to see the CSM speaking frankly on their limitations and capabilities. I applaud CSM6 for, what I think, is the best start of a CSM yet. I would appreciate further memos/blogs/whatever on exactly what the CSM feels they can accomplish during their term. I also welcome any further input CCP might have in clearly defining the scope of what CSM is. I recommend committing information, such as it is, to as ready a reference as reasonably possible.

EDIT: For the love of my vanity.

Shinigami Zetsui
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:07:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:54:45
Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 22:53:34
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui
So everyone voted for them to do as they please? Or were you talking about representing Goonswarm??


He wasn't elected to act as a proxy to players wishes, he was elected to make the decisions swiftly and in player's stead. He may do something one subset of players disagrees with, be it goons or another group, but that's beside the point. By choosing to elect him, the Eve playerbase as a whole gave him authorization to act on his own, because enough Eve players found mittens to be a capable enough guy to make those decisions. Beyond that, he doesn't owe us anything.

^^ Essentially a wordier version of what LordElfa said. He knows what's up. ^^


What do you think of my suggestion (in my first post) for improving CSM?

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:12:00 - [186]
 

Time dilation is a simple thing out of the gate we can focus on and highlight as a 'good idea' in a sea of ideas that vary between good and "unplug your keyboard, now".

It doesn't fix lag and is not the lag end game, but it does allow the game to break in a fair manner instead of creating an unbalanced playing field.

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:15:00 - [187]
 

Edited by: LordElfa on 11/04/2011 23:19:08
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sweet!

Can't wait to have some one on one time with a majority controlled CSM by the NC, who has a goon as the chairman on a goon controlled mumble. This will go well.

It will be curious to see the goon moderators kick/mute anyone who is not of the same thought process they are on issues.


I guess that would depend on whether or not you're considering showing up just to try and be a disruptive tool to those attempting to actually get things done.

Originally by: Cortante
This CSM is little more than a Northern Coalition CSM. The effect of Time Dilation will only help people bring a bigger blob, which favors the Northern Coalition.

Nothing Mittani or any of the other NC CSM members espouses will help smaller entities, nothing they espouse will break up the ****ty powerblocs that have choked out the flavor of 0.0. The first big idea? Making it easier to bring a blob and win.

End of the day, don't encourage Mittani or any of his yes-men by engaging with them, tell CCP that the CSM doesn't represent you and that CCP should take their ideas and opinions with the tiniest grain of salt.


If you don't like that NC worked hard to secure their place then stop crying and use the in game mechanics to change things. Why should CCP change the way the game works to make your play time easier? You want power blocks broken up then find a way to do it in EVE like stop expecting the developers to do your job for you.

Mynxee
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:16:00 - [188]
 

Edited by: Mynxee on 11/04/2011 23:37:12
Originally by: Fuujin
Or you can realize that the backlog exists because CCP doesn't prioritize any of them aside from maybe the low hanging fruit scoopd up by Team BFF. When you go to iceland and hand them 10,000 points and say "do these please, thanks!" the only rational response is to scratch your head and toss them in the back of the queue, since they're all "important" and given dissonant supprot.

Focusing on a few issues and selling them as singular priorities--even if they're backlog retreads--is far more likey to be effectively realized than tossing handfuls of random ideas out like chaff and hoping some stick.


The CSM backlog exists because one of the defined roles of the CSM is to vote on proposals raised by themselves or players. The ones that pass go into the backlog. They are not "rotting" there, they are simply stored there as potential ideas for future development/game changes. Either due to championing by CSM or being picked up by a CCP sprint team during a backlog review, some items get development resources assigned.

There will never come a time when every CSM item in the backlog is done, even if CCP were to stop right now and work on no other thing until the end of time. Why? Because items in the backlog are not evaluated by CSM at voting time based on what has been passed previously. Each idea is considered on its own merits. Therefore, many of the CSM items currently in the backlog aren't necessarily compatible with each other or what's implemented in the game right now.

It might be a thought for some CSM (maybe CSM6?) to review the backlogged CSM items with the goal of identifying obsolete items for removal or categorization as "Won'ts" in the MuSCOW scheme (used by CCP to categorize "stories" in its backlog). Doing so would likely reduce the actual number of items wanting dev love. At least this is possible now, since CCP finally tagged all the CSM backlogged items at CSM5's urging; until then, you couldn't query the backlog and pull out a list of just CSM items. I have sometimes wonder how much that has influenced the attention so many items got during CSM5's term.

Edited to add: Forgot to say, re the Letter...all communications with the players from CSM is most welcome; I think the plans that CSM6 has for that sound good. I look forward to seeing what kind of information gets shared and whether the various planned activities are more interactive or info push. Hopefully a balance of both.

As for how CSM6 intends to approach CCP, it's early days. There are a lot of smart people on CSM6 and some of them have been through the CCP grinder before. So...give them a chance to find their feet. And more importantly, to find their first measurable success in working with CCP. It's way too soon for doom and gloom forecasts just yet.


UAxDEATH
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:19:00 - [189]
 

As Mitten`s said before. We had no idea about it. Greyscale didn't come to us, and that we think CCP 'snuck it past the CSM' between CSM5/CSM6 handover, and that we're mad about it. We think 0.0 needs a set of large scale changes, not a single nerf/boost here and there.

Axhind
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:31:00 - [190]
 

Originally by: Camios
Edited by: Camios on 11/04/2011 22:24:18
While Time Dilation will probably solve the unfairness due to lag, Time Dilation will not change the game; the way to survive will always be "bring more people" and we'll hit the server limit again.
Time dilation sounds like a plaster on a really more complicated problem that would need a gameplay fix instead: Null Security space has evolved in a poor way: either you blob or play the elitist game with SCs.

Coalitions gameplay is the problem. While its scale is fascinating and awe inspiring, it kills the server (and will kill it even with time dilation, perhaps even if the playerbase does not keep growing).
But please note I'm not against coalitions, I'm not against PL.
I'm against the fact that if you don't play one of these roles you cannot survive in nowadays 0.0; thus if you want to survive you must play that server killing game.
To solve the problem beyond Time Dilation, we'll either need a radical sov mechanic change (so that battles are fought over many sistems at once) or some tools for the small independent entities



Don't nerf coalitions, just boost the ability of small independent entities to survive in nullsec without blues.
It should not involve POSes and Outpost, but smaller and less visible stuff.


This is actually not the case. Time dilation can scale much better with the load and chances are very good that it would outstrip the amount of players people can/want bring.
It is true that game should change to enable more spread out use of force (this can be accomplished tactically by attacking several systems for example) but that does not mean that fixing the underlying engine to scale correctly with the load is a bad thing. It just solves a huge issue that is annoying a ton of players and improves on the main draw of eve (truly epic battles and conflicts).

Infinion
Caldari
Awesome Corp
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:32:00 - [191]
 


Originally by: Cortante
The effect of Time Dilation will only help people bring a bigger blob, which favors the Northern Coalition.


Time Dilation is being designed to prevent server lockups during large fleet fights. Lockups are unfair because the servers don't process all of the incoming requests at the same time. If an alliance is capable of fielding more ships after Time Dilation is implemented, then that's great; it reflects their true capabilities.

Originally by: Cortante


Nothing Mittani or any of the other NC CSM members espouses will help smaller entities, nothing they espouse will break up the ****ty powerblocs that have choked out the flavor of 0.0. The first big idea? Making it easier to bring a blob and win.

End of the day, don't encourage Mittani or any of his yes-men by engaging with them, tell CCP that the CSM doesn't represent you and that CCP should take their ideas and opinions with the tiniest grain of salt.


Dude the servers aren't supposed to limit blobs in a fleet fight or affect gameplay in any way. Fixing the balance of power between small alliances and powerblocs in 0.0 isn't something the CSM are capable of resolving on their own. If there was such an easy solution to it that wouldn't break the game, it would have already been implemented. The CSM were elected out of our own playerbase by us, and we all have the inventive capability to solve these problems. So instead of criticizing them, realize that the power of the CSM emanates from 2 things: Their ability to directly communicate with the developers, and their efforts to seek and recite the ideas and concerns of the playerbase.

BurntCornMuffin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:34:00 - [192]
 

Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 23:34:38
Originally by: Shinigami Zetsui
What do you think of my suggestion (in my first post) for improving CSM?


What? That deluded mess? CCP will never give that much dev control to a player elected board. The involvement of the CSM is as SCRUM stakeholders, which means that occasionally CCP will show the CSM what they've got, let the CSM respond, and either consider or ignore their opinion. What Mittens is trying to do is to get CCP to do more of the former and less of the latter, hence why Time Dilation was brought up in the first place: it's a good idea that CCP said they wanted to do, the CSM is spotlighting it so CCP doesn't go ADD and implement yet another half-implemented worthless feature instead.

Considering how many years it took CCP to let players even get THIS involved, I think you'd best stay content for the time being.

Marconus Orion
D00M.
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:43:00 - [193]
 

Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:44:00 - [194]
 

Edited by: LordElfa on 11/04/2011 23:49:17
Edited by: LordElfa on 11/04/2011 23:46:11
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin



Considering how many years it took CCP to let players even get THIS involved, I think you'd best stay content for the time being.


You sir ask too much!!! Laughing

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.


Then by all means, Don't Go!!! stay home and mine some more, whatever makes you feel warm, fuzzy and safe. Yes, Goons take advantage of fools in EVE, that's the damn game after all. You don't want to get taken by Goons, don't be a fool.

That said, I'm not worried about them harvesting IP's in mumble. Paranoid much?

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:49:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Mynxee

The CSM backlog exists because one of the defined roles of the CSM is to vote on proposals raised by themselves or players. The ones that pass go into the backlog. They are not "rotting" there, they are simply stored there as potential ideas for future development/game changes. Either due to championing by CSM or being picked up by a CCP sprint team during a backlog review, some items get development resources assigned.

There will never come a time when every CSM item in the backlog is done, even if CCP were to stop right now and work on no other thing until the end of time. Why? Because items in the backlog are not evaluated by CSM at voting time based on what has been passed previously. Each idea is considered on its own merits. Therefore, many of the CSM items currently in the backlog aren't necessarily compatible with each other or what's implemented in the game right now.

It might be a thought for some CSM (maybe CSM6?) to review the backlogged CSM items with the goal of identifying obsolete items for removal or categorization as "Won'ts" in the MuSCOW scheme (used by CCP to categorize "stories" in its backlog). Doing so would likely reduce the actual number of items wanting dev love. At least this is possible now, since CCP finally tagged all the CSM backlogged items at CSM5's urging; until then, you couldn't query the backlog and pull out a list of just CSM items. I have sometimes wonder how much that has influenced the attention so many items got during CSM5's term.




Which just goes to my point. The CSM needs to be more than an Assembly Hall Bad Idea Aggregator; it needs to evaluate and apply some critical thinking to the ideas it advances. Much like the "coming soon" page that used to be in the patch section of the website, you can very easily load up on "sounds cool" ideas and never get anywhere--which not coincidentally is what has happened with almost every other CSM. Aside from advising CCP on a few issues that were already underway (sov revamp comes to mind) and getting some low-hanging fruit through (learning skills, learning queue) there is little obvious "we did this" evidence of the CSM ever doing anything than serving as a PR setpiece for CCP.

The backlog and how best to handle it, as Mittani and others mentioned during the campaign, is probably going to be a major focus during CSM6.

Dr Herpes
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:49:00 - [196]
 

In my opinion good progress was made with the last CSM and their work should be continued. Specifically the jump bridge nerfs and cyno spool up ideas which recieved unanimous support from the CSM. Also all the small issues identified with crowd sourcing. It would be real shame just to throw that all away.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:52:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 11/04/2011 23:54:19
Originally by: LordElfa
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.


Then by all means, Don't Go!!! stay home and mine some more, whatever makes you feel warm, fuzzy and safe. Yes, Goons take advantage of fools in EVE, that's the damn game after all. You don't want to get taken by Goons, don't be a fool.

That said, I'm not worried about them harvesting IP's in mumble. Paranoid much?
Hardly paranoid when this is exactly what they did when they got hold of a copy of the PL forums.

The fact that this is being promoted by CCP is really poor.

BurntCornMuffin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:53:00 - [198]
 

Edited by: BurntCornMuffin on 11/04/2011 23:55:18
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.


Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or better yet, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:54:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Dr Herpes
In my opinion good progress was made with the last CSM and their work should be continued. Specifically the jump bridge nerfs and cyno spool up ideas which recieved unanimous support from the CSM. Also all the small issues identified with crowd sourcing. It would be real shame just to throw that all away.


Do you also think that Obama should have gone on with Bush's agenda as well? New management means new priorities. Enough about crapping jump bridge nerfing. It was a bad idea when it was mentioned and its still bad. I won't even address cyno spool.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:56:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.


Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or worse, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.
So why hasn't Mittens been banned, what with all the linking of PL IP's that had been put into googledocs?

Jonathan Malcom
Gallente
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:58:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Jonathan Malcom on 11/04/2011 23:58:28
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.


Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or worse, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.
So why hasn't Mittens been banned, what with all the linking of PL IP's that had been put into googledocs?


I could be mistaken, but from what I understand, using IP addresses to identify and eliminate spies from your organization is a fairly common practice.

Were the IP addresses that were obtained used in any other fashion?

Edit: Seriouspost. I'm genuinely asking because I don't know.

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:59:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: LordElfa on 12/04/2011 00:02:39
Edited by: LordElfa on 12/04/2011 00:01:54
Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.


Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or worse, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.
So why hasn't Mittens been banned, what with all the linking of PL IP's that had been put into googledocs?


Why did you let your forum leak? If you get struck by lightening for holding an umbrella in a thunderstorm, you don't blame the lightning or the umbrella.

If I'm not mistaken, Goon uses those IP's to compare against members in their own forums to keep out your infiltrators. What benefit would they get from a thousand random players who can't really be linked to EVE accounts by their IP's?

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.12 00:00:00 - [203]
 

Alert! Your computer is broadcasting an IP address!!!!11

Settle down frances. Consider: you log in unregistered, and you can put any name you want in. Even if we were harvesting IPs from this they'd be worse than useless since there would be no association with your identity.

"Someone who claims to be "fuzzybunny243 at 64.34.23.144 plays Eve Online or is interested in eve online enough to listen to an internet spaceship council nasally drone on for an hour!"

GRIEV3R
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.04.12 00:03:00 - [204]
 

Time Dilation sounds like a cool idea.

felchergod
Posted - 2011.04.12 00:12:00 - [205]
 

I'm going to have to say I think jump bridge nerfs, cyno spool up and moongoo redistribution sound like much better and easier to implement ideas than some slomo bullet time crap. Fix small gang pvp, leave the blobbers to roll in their own soiled bed.

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.12 00:13:00 - [206]
 

Edited by: Dodgy Past on 12/04/2011 00:14:34
Originally by: Jonathan Malcom
I could be mistaken, but from what I understand, using IP addresses to identify and eliminate spies from your organization is a fairly common practice.

Were the IP addresses that were obtained used in any other fashion?

Edit: Seriouspost. I'm genuinely asking because I don't know.
Nor do I since they were made available to anyone with an internet connection, not the most responsible behaviour of an individual who is now going to be able to collect a whole lot more IPs.

It is an unfortunate situation that the individual who is responsible for security for CCP and might be someone who could / should call foul can be accused of bias ( notice please I said can be accused, not is biased ).

Axhind
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.12 00:19:00 - [207]
 

Originally by: Dodgy Past
Originally by: BurntCornMuffin
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.


Because real life scamming isn't an offense that gets you permabanned from Goonswarm and possibly Eve. Best keep that tin foil hat handy, I'm totally willing to get your real life info to damn myself into having no other Eve entity wiling to take me in aside from Pandemic Legion. I love 4chan cat memes so much that such a fate would be a blessing. Or worse, I'd lose my ability to pilot internet space ships and have to go outside or something.
So why hasn't Mittens been banned, what with all the linking of PL IP's that had been put into googledocs?


From what I could tell reading your forums PL is doing exact same thing. So either you are arguing for a ban for your tech staff or you are slightly hypocritical.

VC General
Caldari
No Baals Inc
Posted - 2011.04.12 00:27:00 - [208]
 

Quote:
1. CCP is under no obligation to interact with the CSM outside of the strict confines of the CCP/CSM Summits.



I don't get this part of the letter. Only an idiot would assume that CCP immediately and automatically implements any ideas the CSM decides on. At the same time, I figure it would be a reasonable expectation that CSM would have constructive dialog with CCP on a regular basis. They make it sound like CCP meets with them once in awhile for PR, and doesn't really care what they think anymore than some random guy posting in the forums. If that's the case, then what is the point of CSM? The same goal of getting occasional player feedback could be achieved by just reading the forums. If the first part of the letter just means that CCP doesn't HAVE to listen to the CSM, well, that's obvious. I would certainly hope they do, though. Otherwise you guys are just a waste of everyone's time.

Sethose Olderon
Gryphon Chancellery
Gryphon League
Posted - 2011.04.12 00:53:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Sethose Olderon on 12/04/2011 00:59:26
    My thoughts


  1. I pretty much always have and always will believe that the CSM is nothing more than a PR tool for CCP, and that has nothing to do with the people who participate in it. I think people who step up and try to improve things should be applauded. It is CCP who hamstrings their efforts, and until that changes, the CSM will continue to be nothing more than a PR machine.


  2. Time Dilation is one solution to crippled fleet engagements in nullsec, and I agree something should be done about lag. However, what CSM6 I think fails to realize, is that there is more to Eve than nullsec.


  3. It's been years since we were promised an industry overhaul and it keeps getting pushed to the rear because of crap like this. If it weren't for the industrialists who also deal with crappy mechanics, none of you would have ships. Don't forget about us, the mechanics we use need attention as well!


    Let the flame-war ensue...

Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.12 00:58:00 - [210]
 

Originally by: Marconus Orion
Sorry if I'm not comfortable with goons harvesting IP addresses with their mumble. Their reputation for being trust worth is simply nonexistent.

Simple solution: download the recordings after they're released then. vOv


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