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Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.04.11 20:44:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Mitchello on 11/04/2011 20:45:12
Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Originally by: Sturmwolke
Fluffy sugar puff.
This is what CSM 6 is reduced to *sigh*.



CSM 6 took office one week ago, hit the ground running, coordinated, talked, exchanged points of views and information, reached consensus about what the first issue to spotlight would be (and the fact that we'd be doing this), figured out our stance on the subject, got a message written out, did 2 rounds of revision on that message so everyone could agree, incorporated those revisions, sent it to CCP for release and got CCP to release it.

It's safe to say CSM 6 is starting really well in terms of efforts...

Now, in terms of other individual issues and getting results, it's a bit early for that wouldn't you think?


Agreed in full there. For now I'm waiting for the threadnaught which will inevitably be pushed Razz

Tomcat
Gallente
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 20:51:00 - [122]
 

You know what makes me saddest of all. I can't tell the difference between who is trolling and who is just out of this world idiotic =/

Also, Time Dilation - May it breath life into this awful travesty we call a game.

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 20:52:00 - [123]
 

Mostly I just wonder why Virt can't post on Virt, since he's clogging the thread with words on an obvious alt.

Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
Posted - 2011.04.11 20:59:00 - [124]
 

Stakeholder no more I see.

Originally by: :ccp:
We are CCP and we know what is good for you

ModeratedToSilence
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:00:00 - [125]
 

Nice to see the CSM attempting to do something both worthwhile and achievable:
By helping CCP implement good ideas they are going to take resources away from bad ideas.
By helping CCP implement good ideas they are creating a workable relationship with CCP.
By helping CCP implement good ideas they are helping the player base.

It is nice to see them adapt to Realpolitik. Time Dilution in incarna?




Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:04:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Zastrow
It's easy for CCP to ignore players on the forums and over the internet. It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you. It would take them like an hour or 2 at least.

Say what you want about the "power" of the CSM, but CCP isn't sitting them down with scrubs, they got Torfi, Noah, and other big guns sitting down with the CSM at the summits. These are important ears to have. If the CSM can persuade (persuade, not demand) the right people to come around, the direction of EVE will change as a result.


The Summits are just one piece of the picture though, and much of what goes on there is Big Picture stuff. For CSM5, for example, what followed after with CCP folks in the form of ongoing discussion (such as with Team Gridlock) and hands-on collaborative work (such as Trebor did with the UI team) was arguably MUCH more important in terms of getting **** done.

Sure, sitting down with "important ears" is useful. But so is ongoing dialog. So what do you do afterward when all requests to engage in such dialogs are refused, however passively, by those "important ears"? Do you just roll over and say, "Oh well, we tried at the Summit. Guess that's all we get. Hope our requests and demands didn't **** you off too much. Sorry, CCP, if we ruffled your feathers or anything."

Welp. That's one way.

Or do you do what Hilmar said to do, and call bull****?




you probably don't imitate a CSM that was largely a failure

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:05:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: El'Niaga
Therefore basically as I've always stated it is nothing more than a PR tool meant to make you think players have a voice when they have none.

Yeah, it's not like we keep them in business or anything. Oh wait...

Anyway, as long as were talking about the perception of the players on the CSM, one of those perceptions is that the CSM is now a large alliance/goon infested thing. Probably not the best way to diminish that it is by using Goon tools for CSM stuff... but maybe that was the plan.Twisted Evil
I personally will judge the CM by their actions, but this is not a good first impression for me. It's a little bit too similar to state controlled media. I'm not saying that it will be a goon propaganda channel, but I think it's unfair to other candidates use one groups tools because of the increased exposure that group gets. It's not like goons need more exposure anyway.

Tusanshu
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:07:00 - [128]
 

Test CSM, Best CSM.

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:08:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: Mynxee
Originally by: Zastrow
It's easy for CCP to ignore players on the forums and over the internet. It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you. It would take them like an hour or 2 at least.

Say what you want about the "power" of the CSM, but CCP isn't sitting them down with scrubs, they got Torfi, Noah, and other big guns sitting down with the CSM at the summits. These are important ears to have. If the CSM can persuade (persuade, not demand) the right people to come around, the direction of EVE will change as a result.


The Summits are just one piece of the picture though, and much of what goes on there is Big Picture stuff. For CSM5, for example, what followed after with CCP folks in the form of ongoing discussion (such as with Team Gridlock) and hands-on collaborative work (such as Trebor did with the UI team) was arguably MUCH more important in terms of getting **** done.

Sure, sitting down with "important ears" is useful. But so is ongoing dialog. So what do you do afterward when all requests to engage in such dialogs are refused, however passively, by those "important ears"? Do you just roll over and say, "Oh well, we tried at the Summit. Guess that's all we get. Hope our requests and demands didn't **** you off too much. Sorry, CCP, if we ruffled your feathers or anything."

Welp. That's one way.

Or do you do what Hilmar said to do, and call bull****?




you probably don't imitate a CSM that was largely a failure


That's every CSM before this one.

Mitchello
B O R G
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:11:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Mitchello on 11/04/2011 21:11:57
Originally by: The Mittani
Mostly I just wonder why Virt can't post on Virt, since he's clogging the thread with words on an obvious alt.


Virt is inactive these days. Something about always getting called primary on that character ugh

I thought you'd have this character marked though, hi!

Stop worrying, it is a good first letter from a new CSM. Y'all have been in office for just a week, and all people remember right now is CSM5, its methods, its messaging and its visibility in getting somewhere with CCP. It is only natural for people to react to it when their patterns are broken. Not a bad thing. Similar things happened during the transitions from CSM 3 to 4, and 4 to 5.

That does not impede on the value of Time Dilation, sure it is a bit meh that because of what folks are used to it gets a little overshadowed, but it is better to deal with that quickly rather than let it linger. It is a perception challenge.

Once the apple is chewed through, the road is open.

Largo Coronet
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:11:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat
Originally by: Zen Sarum
yep...anomaly nerf and hopefully jump bridge nerf coming soon. CCP just keep doing what your doing and Mittens can keep tickling his dog's privates with that little goatie beard.
u mad?

Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:12:00 - [132]
 

Some posts in this thread make me wonder how some of you act outside of your basements. God help you if you ever need to persuade someone to grant you something or to change their mind about a topic without browbeating them or screaming in their face.

Seriously, CCP is under no obligation to do anything the CSM says. If the CSM decides to spend their time whining and bleating, the amount of weight the devs will put on their words is going to shrink precipitously.

If, however, they seek to engage CCP and present a cohesive message without resorting to acting out--you can bet that their audience will at least be paid attention to and given some thought. Make no mistake though--CCP can and will do what it wants. The CSM body just has a chance to influence that "want" and hopefully guide it to something to the betterment of the game.

Butterbunz
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:13:00 - [133]
 

Only one week in and I already wish that CCP would spend the money it takes to run CSM to make another HTFU music video. In just this topic alone, I have read nothing more then petty name calling (neckbeard, basement dweller, etc) and your typical tough guy attitude.

First and foremost, when becoming CSM check your ****ing in game personality at the door. I don't care if you're some big shot in game or RL, but you need to listen to the people you signed up to represent. Rather than trying to win a vote of confidence by trying to be the winner of a flame war, how about you try to press an issue with a problem/issue the players (CCP's source of income) have.

The biggest issue we need to address is the public support for the CSM. Frankly, I couldn't give two ****s about whether or you have a strong sway with CCP or nothing more than glorified sock puppets. You need the support of the players to press on. Imagine this: The majority of the players support your agenda (Updated regularly and discussed in an open forum. CSM has/gains a major backing by the player base and presents a proposal to CCP. CCP reading the proposal will try to activly enter some form of negotiation (feasibility and such) and try to make it work rather than shoot it down outright. If CCP does shoot down an proposal, that would cause one hell of a PR ****storm. They would have to give reasons for it, and the CSM could give player oriented feedback to help CCP suggest plausible ways of implementing the changes.

Realistically you guys are supposed to act like lobbyists (to an extent). Just because you think you might get shut down doesn't mean you shouldn't even bother trying. Have weekly blogs to demonstrate some form of progression to a goal. You could even schedule bi-yearly (bi-termly if the CSM term is less than a year) proposals. Research, debate, and discuss your goals and ideas, then as a unified body make the proposal.

This does in fact mean a lot of time needs to be spent doing the job, but hey, if you don't want to do the work don't run for candidacy.

Inb4 a bunch of degenerative 4chan flamewars Rolling Eyes

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:13:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 11/04/2011 21:16:48
Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane
Edited by: Bartholomeus Crane on 11/04/2011 16:50:05
So, CSM6 just advertised that it sees itself as nothing more than soundboard for CCP, and without struggle has therefore declared itself already quite useless as a pressure management instrument for CCP. Off to a good start.


do you even know what the original mandate for the CSM was? Before it was even called the CSM?
Ill help: It was a watchdog group, a knee-jerk reaction by CCP to prove they wouldnt repeat T20. The members were to go to Iceland and keep tabs on CCP.

Yeah its THAT bull****

They even kept up that crap for a couple weeks too

Originally by: Fuujin
Some posts in this thread make me wonder how some of you act outside of your basements.


I live in a state where there are no basements O.o

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:14:00 - [135]
 

The CSM has the support of the only players with a unified voice enough to rise above the cacophony of idiocy that is the assembly hall

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:17:00 - [136]
 

To add something in addition to the important time dilation issue

Dream of ways to create smaller goals and smaller fleet engagements or give full support to ideas submitted to the CSM that might create those opportunities WITHOUT a stick to the diplomatic political areana.

Game mechanics aren't zero sum things... and hell nerfs that make things worthless are far more iritating than a gradual nerf by obsolecense... lvl 4s were begining to be succesfully de-emphasised with increasing anomolie ussage and more casual players moving to 0.0 and 0.0 players spending less time in empire ...

If they wanted more confilct over space carrots instead of sticks could have been conceived.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:18:00 - [137]
 

Quote:
It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you.

CCP easily fixed that by just not telling CSM anything or ignoring them (see anomaly changes where CSM was completely ignored).


Tbh while i like most ideas of the current CSM, i still think time dilation will take too much time to implement considering the relative small impact. The only effect is that you wont blackscreen as often when jumping your blob into hostile blob. Which is a good thing obviously, but during the fight itself lag is (usually) pretty equal for all sides. Imo it would be way better to remove current sov system and replace it by something that encourages something besides blobbing as much as possible during 4 timers (i still like activity based sov).

And when busy anyway nodes should be multithreaded. Yes I know it is easier to say than to do, but face it, threads arent going to become much faster in the near future, we are just getting more of them. I dont believe in the argument that it would give a problem with dead ships killing other ships, physics at the very least could run on its own threads. Even if it would happen that dead ships can kill other ships in their last breath, who cares? We are in normal situation then talking about very short timing difference (doesnt eve have short turns anyway that would prevent that?), one can easily explain that in the backstory by travelling time of the ammo, a ship still firing its last shots when going down, etc. And look at shooters, there it happens all the time, no one complains about it.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:20:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Quote:
It's a lot harder to ignore people that are sitting in the same room with you.

CCP easily fixed that by just not telling CSM anything or ignoring them (see anomaly changes where CSM was completely ignored).



or slapping them with NDAs when they disagreed with CCP

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:21:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Sturmwolke on 11/04/2011 21:23:27

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
Now, in terms of other individual issues and getting results, it's a bit early for that wouldn't you think?


The main part of what made CSM5 succcessful, and what perhaps made a lot of people to sit up and take notice is their professional conduct (especially that of the chairwoman) and willingness to call a spade "This is a bloody spade™!". The recent invasion of the CSM 6 by large power blocks says something about the general interest level created by their successes.

To answer your question, the sheer joy and willingness to cavort to shenanigans and fluffy/**** postings tells me that things won't go far. The responsible public will not engage with sound ideas and suggestions if you maintain a hostile environment full of trolls. You get apathy. The noise level increases ten fold.

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but the writings on the wall tells me otherwise.

edit: clarity

Axhind
Caldari
Ars ex Discordia
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:22:00 - [140]
 

Awesome letter and even better idea (only realistic one to be honest) for dealing with the lag in game. I would love to hear in a dev blog a bit about the way they plan on implementing it (for example how the new people jumping in to the system would be handled).

Don't get the CSM hate though. You have to be pretty dense to think that CSM can actually order around CCP devs. No matter what CEO said he was not saying that CSM has power over devs or the direction in which the game is going. Accepting your limitations is a first step to maximising your abilities and getting time dilation would be huge thing for the game. Suddenly the epic battles would be epic battles and not epic whine on the forums due to random chance.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:24:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Mitchello
But CSM is a stakeholder, within the development process. Sure, CCP applied the status without fully considering what this would mean, but that is fine. After all CSM started out as an experiment, so this is a path of mutual exploration for both the road and the horizon.

CSM's role is both larger than, and smaller than, a development stakeholder. We have some roles outside the development process (focus group, bull**** calling, etc), but within the process itself, CSM works under a set of restrictions that other stakeholders do not suffer from.

For example, we are not on-site, so we can't walk down the hall to chat with people. And our participation in the scrum process is largely limited to giving a list of our priorities to our representatives (Xhagen and Diagoras) for use during the planning meetings.

Developing ways to compensate for those handicaps is high on my list of procedural priorities, and I hope the other council members will give it a similar emphasis.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:25:00 - [142]
 

Focussing on only one issue is going to cost us dearly in terms of lost time.

While the nullsec community might have been watching "in horror" at the backlog set up by CSM 5, that backlog existed for a reason - CSM was preparing a laundry list of fixes, second iterations, and wish list items. Where were the nullsec denizens when that list was being prepared? Why weren't nullsec issues supported sufficiently in the F&I and AH forums to appear in the crowd sourcing lists? Why weren't crowd sourcing sessions used by nullsec denizens to advance their gameplay preferences?

Subsequent iterations over the backlog could have scrapped some items, reprioritised others, and added more important stuff to the front of the queue.

If you're going to throw away that laundry list backlog and focus on just one item being implemented by one team, you're going to lose the opportunity to influence the other teams to produce stuff that the players want.

The CSM should be setting up a prioritized list for each team it interacts with. Team Gridlock is only focussed on the space simulation aspect of the game. There are other teams dealing with the UI, content and customer service.

Will we see other items beside "Time Dilation" in the spotlights any time soon, or does CSM6 feel that one spotlight is all they can manage at once?

What does CSM6 intend to do with the crowd sourcing and prioritisation list?

Will minutes or recordings of the "Fireside Chats" be kept (eg: publish recordings as podcasts) so that those of us not available to participate can catch up on the discussions at a later date?

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:27:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow


For example, we are not on-site, so we can't walk down the hall to chat with people.


I havent kept up with the CSM stuff other than to laugh at the original idea, but part of that original idea was to fly the CSM TO Iceland. They scrapped that too then?

Lan Staz
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:28:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
i still think time dilation will take too much time to implement considering the relative small impact.

Originally by: Furb Killer
Imo it would be way better to remove current sov system and replace it by something that encourages something besides blobbing as much as possible during 4 timers (i still like activity based sov).

Originally by: Furb Killer
And when busy anyway nodes should be multithreaded.


Time dilation would presumably be based around simply removing the current restriction that a "tick" has to complete in 1 second. The work involved would probably be dealing with all the edge cases where other unrelated code assumes ticks take no longer. And it would have a potentially massive benefit, in that it would fundamentally change the nature (though not the existence) of lag.

Replacing the sov mechanics and making the code thread-safe would be a lot more work, and would at best increase the lag threshold somew.
Complet

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:31:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow


For example, we are not on-site, so we can't walk down the hall to chat with people.


I havent kept up with the CSM stuff other than to laugh at the original idea, but part of that original idea was to fly the CSM TO Iceland. They scrapped that too then?


not for the whole year

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:32:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: LordElfa on 11/04/2011 21:36:38
Some of the pathetic attacks at CSM6 in this thread make me want to punch babies.

They seem to be made by people who have been butthurt by Goon and NC rather than people with any legitimate argument about the current topic.

Nerf Jump Bridges? I suspect the people saying this are the same ones who call people hackers in FPS games because they keep getting merc'd.

Originally by: Sturmwolke
Sturmwolke

The responsible public will not engage with sound ideas and suggestions if you maintain a hostile environment full of trolls.

edit: clarity


I've been through every post in this thread and the trolls appear to be those coming out against CSM6, not brought with them. Convince them to get the hell out and there won't be any damn hostility.

Sullen Skoung
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:36:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: LordElfa
Some of the pathetic attacks at CSM6 in this thread make me want to punch babies.



Thats the effect Goons usually have on ppl

and its not about whove theyve killed...
who am I kidding this HAS to be a troll lol
Good one

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:41:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: LordElfa
Some of the pathetic attacks at CSM6 in this thread make me want to punch babies.



Thats the effect Goons usually have on ppl

and its not about whove theyve killed...
who am I kidding this HAS to be a troll lol
Good one


No, I'm dead ass serious about this. CSM6 is not the damn Goonswarm. People need to learn to separate the game from real life. In game, the members of CSM6 may play ruthlessly and for keeps, but out of game, many of them are professionals who are taking their roles in the CSM very seriously in order to make this game better. Why can't people see that?!

Maplestone
Myth and Peace Lords
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:45:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: Maplestone on 11/04/2011 22:01:16

Is the general "O" of fleet battles known? That is to say, how does the computational power required scale with the number of ships in a large battle?

( edit: I ask because I worry that people might be letting their imaginations get ahead of them and it would be nice to put some numbers to show just how large time dialation would have to become once you were 2x or 5x the fleet size where lag first starts to appear )

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:48:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Weaselior
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
I havent kept up with the CSM stuff other than to laugh at the original idea, but part of that original idea was to fly the CSM TO Iceland. They scrapped that too then?

not for the whole year

And if they did, we'd all ragequit. Well, all of us but Meissa... Twisted Evil

But seriously, a stakeholder who is working full time in Iceland obviously has many more opportunities for networking, building consensus, etc., than does the CSM.


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