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Ming Sying
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.13 02:50:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Edited by: Cearain on 13/04/2011 00:51:16
Yes, do away with assembly hall and the views of those idiot players.

Let’s just claim credit for a good idea that CCP was already working on before we took office!

CCP will be happy to lie and agree that "time dilation" was developed due to csm6. After all, it's good marketing to pretend you listen to the players. I can’t wait to hear the spin about the role csm 6 had in the development of this idea. Perhaps the anticipated dev blog will already have it in there.



You mean CSM doesn't have any input on selecting planned features?

Marshallin Santerese
Posted - 2011.04.13 12:30:00 - [272]
 

Can I ask some stupid newbie questions?

If a system goes into time dilation (and I'm assuming it's system-wide), will ships still be able to jump in? If so, how will people utilise the mechanic to their advantage?

If they can't then jump in, until the system isn't in time dilation, how will that be used? If a system seals, then is there a danger that someone could force time dilation in surrounding systems, trapping people in the original system?

Genuine questions: I have only second-hand understanding of nullsec fleet battles.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.04.13 12:39:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Ming Sying
Originally by: Cearain
Edited by: Cearain on 13/04/2011 00:51:16
Yes, do away with assembly hall and the views of those idiot players.

Let’s just claim credit for a good idea that CCP was already working on before we took office!

CCP will be happy to lie and agree that "time dilation" was developed due to csm6. After all, it's good marketing to pretend you listen to the players. I can’t wait to hear the spin about the role csm 6 had in the development of this idea. Perhaps the anticipated dev blog will already have it in there.



You mean CSM doesn't have any input on selecting planned features?


CSM is clearly “selecting” already planned features. They are selecting already planned features that they want to claim credit for.

Now they just need to do the converse. CCP needs to pull “CCP scapegoat” from the mail room for the next summit. That way he can mention in front of the csm that perhaps they should make it so falcons can fit and use a dooms day. That way our brave CSM could take a big valiant stand against this and all the players can give thanks and praise to them for preventing this.

CCP should be thrilled about this new csm. That annoying csm 5 held them accountable and even quantified their failure to address anything the players wanted. This csm is basically saying – lets just do away with that assembly hall business and the players views altogether.

Let’s also have meetings over skype instead of any formal minutes. That way no one will be accountable for the positions they take. If CCP says they are not going to work on anything the players want for another year or 2 that won’t be clear in any official document. It will be shrouded “he said she said” arguments.

I’m sure CCP is quite happy about this csm. They seem to completely uninterested in pushing for anything the players said they wanted. All the pressure that CSM 5 built to get them to listen to the players is now released. And the methods of interaction chosen means they will never be accountable for what they say.

CSM is happy too. They become more popular by just claiming credit for what CCP was already working on. By becoming more popular they can garner their bigger blobs for their null sec blob warfare. Plus there is a free trip to Iceland and maybe some free beer in there. What is not to like.


There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?

Ming Sying
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.13 14:41:00 - [274]
 

Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:42:58
Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42
Originally by: Cearain

There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?



I guess the assembly hall is used by CCP as a temperature gauge to see what issues are important to eve forum posters. But I'm more interested in this whole CSM thing, it sounds like they are a bunch of space fascists trying to take over the system. I think the time dilation feature is a good thing, but if they are suppressing even better ideas and features I want to know.

What do you think are some of the better features that are being ignored?

Kitty Vintner
Posted - 2011.04.13 15:07:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Ming Sying
Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:42:58
I guess the assembly hall is used by CCP as a temperature gauge to see what issues are important to eve forum posters. But I'm more interested in this whole CSM thing, it sounds like they are a bunch of space fascists trying to take over the system. I think the time dilation feature is a good thing, but if they are suppressing even better ideas and features I want to know.

What do you think are some of the better features that are being ignored?


Three things:
1) Space communists, and
B) They've already taken over.
Third, ideas aren't being suppressed, it's just they can't put the spotlight on several issues at the same time. If you've ever been in a fleet where people started shooting the secondary before the primary you know how well anything will get done if they start +repping everything willy-nilly. Yes, that means they're not going to be able to promote every good idea from the assembly during their terms but what they promote they've actually got a good chance of getting, which is a step up.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.04.13 18:40:00 - [276]
 

14:42:58
Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42
Originally by: Cearain

There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?



I guess the assembly hall is used by CCP as a temperature gauge to see what issues are important to eve forum posters. …



I think you are describing the features and ideas forum.

This is the description CCP gave to the assembly hall forum:

“Assembly Hall
A platform for players to bring topics to the attention of the Council of Stellar Management.”

CSM now informs us that is broken and perhaps even a lie. So what is the point? What is the purpose of having players spending time debating and reading proposals if the current csm thinks that is a bust?

If that is csm's position lets just tell the players that argued for all the issues that ended up in the backlog something like “Oh yeah sorry you wasted your time. Nobody really cares for your attempt to try to be a developer. From here on out, we are going to do things differently. We are just going go to icleland drink beer, talk with ccp, have no records of what was said, and claim credit for things ccp already intends to do.”

Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42
What do you think are some of the better features that are being ignored?


Well perhaps the things that the players actually asked the csm to raise with ccp? Personally, I don’t even care about many of the issues in the backlog. But it at least has some connection to the actual player base.

As far as the csm fireside chats/pep rallies, I couldn’t care less. How are players better able to communicate their ideas through a mumble channel with potentially 100s of people on the same channel, than they can through forum posts that are separated by threads and can be discussed in an organized, logical way? When you have 350,000 accounts do you really think your going to be able to gauge anything useful about the playerbase from this?

Come on CSM, the campaign is over. You won you don’t need to keep campaigning with meaningless townhall meetings. If you want to get any sort of useful information read the Assembly hall threads where players can give their input in an organized way regardless of their timezone and schedule.

Of course if you really don’t care to get good ideas from players for the game and you just want to keep increasing your own personal popularity …..well then keep campaigning, and fireside chats sound great.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.04.13 18:43:00 - [277]
 

Edited by: Cearain on 13/04/2011 18:44:55
Originally by: Ming Sying
Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:42:58
Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42
Originally by: Cearain

There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?



I guess the assembly hall is used by CCP as a temperature gauge to see what issues are important to eve forum posters. But I’m much more interested in this whole csm thing…



I think you are describing the features and ideas forum.

This is the description CCP gave to the assembly hall forum:

“Assembly Hall
A platform for players to bring topics to the attention of the Council of Stellar Management.”

CSM now informs us that is broken and a lie. So what is the point? What is the purpose of having players spending time debating and reading proposals if the current csm thinks that is a bust?

If that is csms position lets just tell the players that argued for all the issues that ended up in the backlog something like “Oh yeah sorry you wasted your time. Nobody really cares for your attempt to try to be a developer. From here on out, we are going to do things differently. We are just going go to icleland drink beer, talk with ccp, have no records of what was said, and claim credit for things ccp already intends to do.”

Originally by: Ming Sying
Edited by: Ming Sying on 13/04/2011 14:41:42
What do you think are some of the better features that are being ignored?


Well perhaps the things that the players actually asked the csm to raise with ccp? I don’t even care about many of the issues in the backlog. But it at least has some connection to the actual player base.

As far as the csm fireside chats/pep rallies, I couldn’t care less. How are players better able to communicate their ideas through a mumble channel with potentially 100s of people on the same channel, than they can through forum posts that are separated by threads and can be discussed in an organized, logical way? When you have 350,000 accounts do you really think your going to be able to gauge anything useful about the playerbase from this?

Come on CSM, the campaign is over. You won you don’t need to keep campaigning with meaningless townhall meetings. If you want to get any sort of useful information read the Assembly hall threads where players can give their input in an organized way regardless of their timezone and schedule.

Of course if you really don’t care to get good ideas from players for the game and you just want to keep increasing your own personal popularity …..well then keep campaigning, and fireside chats sound great.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.13 20:14:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Cearain
CSM now informs us that is broken and a lie. So what is the point? What is the purpose of having players spending time debating and reading proposals if the current csm thinks that is a bust?

I believe you are stretching things unreasonably.

Anyone who ever believed that AH proposals passed by the CSM (and accepted by CCP) were guaranteed to get implemented was kidding themselves. But by the same token, anyone who believes that they are a useless waste of time is also kidding themselves.

Here's the way I see it: well-crafted AH proposals that make it into the backlog are a resource that CCP and CSM can go to when making resource allocation decisions. The prioritization concept that CSM5 innovated was a way of making it easier to use that resource, and the spotlighting that CSM6 is experimenting with is a way of bringing CCP-originated ideas out to the players for discussion, and if they are supported, feeding that support back in to influence the prioritization decisions.

Time-dilation is obvious low-hanging fruit, and not very controversial, but it's just the first test. If spotlighting turns out to be as useful as prioritization was, then we'd obviously want to expand it to more controversial topics.

Over time, less AH proposals will probably get passed by CSM. But this mostly reflects the fact that most of the big issues are in the backlog already, and IIRC CSM5 passed fewer proposals than CSM4. But good AH proposals are going to make it in, and the discussions there (even in things that are not formally raised) do have an influence.

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.04.13 20:46:00 - [279]
 

Well Trebor, while I'm all for the adoption of Time-Dilation, large fleet lag only affects a small portion of the player base who actually engage in said giant ass battles.

Fixing Hybrids and Gallente on the other hand affects a far larger percentage of capsuleers, even overlapping with those affected by big ol' fleet fight lag.

Now while I would prefer that Gallente and Hybrids were tackled first, I'd be happy if CSM6 at least attempted to tackle the problem after they get the Time-Dilation thing under control.

Pherick Sjang
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.13 20:47:00 - [280]
 

A lot of people seem to want to unnecessarily complicate TD. There's no reason to keep people from entering a TD'd system, new arrivals would simply be subjected to it when they arrive and the effect lifted when they leave. Training and research and market jkbs would continue uninterrupted. The only two sticking points are reinforcement timers and cynos. A ship firing off a cyno would normally be stuck for ten minutes, but under 2x dilation, should they be stuck for twice as long? Well that gives people outside the system twice as long to jump in. But if they're still only stuck for 10 minutes, people in the TD'd system effectively have half as much time to kill them.

I don't forsee a particularly big increase in fleet op lengths though. As was said earlier, instead of being trapped in lag until you give up or the node crashes, things will still be happening, just slower than if it were only a handfull of people fighting. And really, the longest, boringest part is waiting and traveling, which shouldn't be effected if TD is based on server load (as it should be) rather than just pure number of ships.

Kaltooth
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.13 20:56:00 - [281]
 

Originally by: LordElfa
Well Trebor, while I'm all for the adoption of Time-Dilation, large fleet lag only affects a small portion of the player base who actually engage in said giant ass battles.

Fixing Hybrids and Gallente on the other hand affects a far larger percentage of capsuleers, even overlapping with those affected by big ol' fleet fight lag.

Now while I would prefer that Gallente and Hybrids were tackled first, I'd be happy if CSM6 at least attempted to tackle the problem after they get the Time-Dilation thing under control.


I don't know if it was here or elsewhere, but I've seen mention in passing (don't mean they'll push for it this term) on the idea of a dedicated balance person/team akin to bff.

Time Dilation does affect everyone though. It means media exposure when 4000 vs 4000 people battles take place without the server melting. Media time means curiosity which means new players. New players means a growth in demand for your products and services. Larger and larger fleet fights also means the potential for more ships to explode increasing demand for replacements. While we all agree null has very low pop compared to high sec, they all feed on each other. Politically, the two are independant of each other and could care less. Economically, they are joined at the hip relying on each other.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.13 21:19:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: LordElfa
Fixing Hybrids and Gallente on the other hand affects a far larger percentage of capsuleers, even overlapping with those affected by big ol' fleet fight lag.

Now while I would prefer that Gallente and Hybrids were tackled first, I'd be happy if CSM6 at least attempted to tackle the problem after they get the Time-Dilation thing under control.

Stuff like this is obviously on our radar, it's just a matter of prioritization. Dedicated resources allocated for continuous rebalancing ranks high on our list.

I personally think that the success of Team BFF and The Thousand Papercuts project should be joined by an assault on the "Dozen Spurting Wounds" -- stuff like Lowsec, FW, Sov mechanics, better missions, the POS dead horse, etc.

VC General
Caldari
No Baals Inc
Posted - 2011.04.13 21:55:00 - [283]
 

I don't think fleet lag affects a small number of players. It's more along the lines of many players don't participate in fleet battles because it is a random lagfest that isn't any fun once you hit the point where the system breaks. I'd start playing Eve religiously again, and go join a blob alliance right now if it was actually fun to participate in that phase of the game.

DaiTengu
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 03:26:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: Rainus Max
Time dialation makes sense to counter the problems but CCP you need to make sure it doesnt extend the lenght of battles.

3/4/5 hr battles are a pain especially if you work or have school etc, if all you do is double the times your still *in theory* risking increasing battle lengths to 6-10 hrs and not sure about most people but I know even on a weekend when I have nothing else to do I'm slightly against devoting the entire day to fighting.

Id suggest increasing damage output of guns etc to counter the increase in wait. IE double the cycle time, double the damage per shot.

My suggestion but im not a game developer (or a massive PvPer TBH), so its probably full of carp.


Doubling damage isn't an option, you'd then need to make sure ships moved twice as fast, signature radii would need to be reduced, and all the dynamic things that affect the damage you receive would need to be recalculated and changed as well (things that are usually static)

A cruiser could shoot at a frigate, and land 3, 4, or 5 shots on it before the frigate dies. However what you're proposing, in severe time dilation, that same cruiser would target a frigate and destroy it with one shot.

The goal of time dilation is to make things more fair, not less fair.

Peralandra
Posted - 2011.04.14 06:33:00 - [285]
 

Not supported.

I'm sorry but this seems nothing more than a group of ALLIED players pushing an agenda that will benefit their preferred play style. I'm not alone in saying that many 0.0 dwellers would like to take a step back from "blob warfare" and any manipulation to the game that encourages players to ally with everyone in order to win by sheer numbers alone. This method for controlling resources is detrimental to the game and creates an overall duller and more uninteresting dynamic to zero security space. Wink




Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 07:25:00 - [286]
 

Originally by: Peralandra
Not supported.

I'm sorry but this seems nothing more than a group of ALLIED players pushing an agenda that will benefit their preferred play style. I'm not alone in saying that many 0.0 dwellers would like to take a step back from "blob warfare" and any manipulation to the game that encourages players to ally with everyone in order to win by sheer numbers alone. This method for controlling resources is detrimental to the game and creates an overall duller and more uninteresting dynamic to zero security space. Wink

I'm sorry that you think this is something we'd like to see just because it'll "benefit [our] preferred play style", as the only thing this should change is how the server reacts to heavy load. Instead of just throwing random people off/ignoring them, it should slow down the players so that a large fight like what is happening between the NC and DRF in geminate is determined by who fights best, not by who has the most people actually able to fight because the server has forgotten about more pilots on the other side.

But, pray tell, what method of controlling resources would be more beneficial to the game?

Qoi
Exert Force
Posted - 2011.04.14 09:32:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Marshallin Santerese
Can I ask some stupid newbie questions?

If a system goes into time dilation (and I'm assuming it's system-wide), will ships still be able to jump in? If so, how will people utilise the mechanic to their advantage?


Yes they will be able to enter the system, or you could just put 2000 Trial Alts in Rifters in a system to protect it from all attacks.

You could utilize it to your advantage because the physics simulation and the combat system would run slower in the loaded system, but at normal speeds elsewhere. So Reinforcement Fleets would arrive at normal speed to a slow battlefield, or from the point of view of the people already in the system - relatively faster. This is highly hypothetical tho, as fleetfights that have serious impact on the local time dilation would have pushed the server beyond its limits before the implementation of time dilation, making combat "slow" anyway.

Lusulpher
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.14 10:11:00 - [288]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Ming Sying
Originally by: Cearain
Edited by: Cearain on 13/04/2011 00:51:16
Yes, do away with assembly hall and the views of those idiot players.

Let’s just claim credit for a good idea that CCP was already working on before we took office!

CCP will be happy to lie and agree that "time dilation" was developed due to csm6. After all, it's good marketing to pretend you listen to the players. I can’t wait to hear the spin about the role csm 6 had in the development of this idea. Perhaps the anticipated dev blog will already have it in there.



You mean CSM doesn't have any input on selecting planned features?


CSM is clearly “selecting” already planned features. They are selecting already planned features that they want to claim credit for.

Now they just need to do the converse. CCP needs to pull “CCP scapegoat” from the mail room for the next summit. That way he can mention in front of the csm that perhaps they should make it so falcons can fit and use a dooms day. That way our brave CSM could take a big valiant stand against this and all the players can give thanks and praise to them for preventing this.

CCP should be thrilled about this new csm. That annoying csm 5 held them accountable and even quantified their failure to address anything the players wanted. This csm is basically saying – lets just do away with that assembly hall business and the players views altogether.

Let’s also have meetings over skype instead of any formal minutes. That way no one will be accountable for the positions they take. If CCP says they are not going to work on anything the players want for another year or 2 that won’t be clear in any official document. It will be shrouded “he said she said” arguments.

I’m sure CCP is quite happy about this csm. They seem to completely uninterested in pushing for anything the players said they wanted. All the pressure that CSM 5 built to get them to listen to the players is now released. And the methods of interaction chosen means they will never be accountable for what they say.

CSM is happy too. They become more popular by just claiming credit for what CCP was already working on. By becoming more popular they can garner their bigger blobs for their null sec blob warfare. Plus there is a free trip to Iceland and maybe some free beer in there. What is not to like.


There I answered your question. Here is one for you. Why even have an assembly hall?



Pretty much. Skipped to last page after I saw a pile of Goons quoting their own broken arguments as valid questioning/observation. I am aware they are trying to inflate the priority of LAG WARFARE as CCP might be watching, and then not losing anymore Titans/Moms to LAG also improves their power projection...conflict of interest, much?

Also as someone who monitors UI changes on Assembly Hall, I can guarantee you that Drone UI does not take 2 Devs or a year to improve. But CCP has drones rebelling EVERY PATCH, and they attack triggers in missions! And yet, I have to ask for the healthbars to be reversed...

If CCP can't dedicate a UI Dev to fix an easy corner that 75% of EvE uses daily, we need an absolutely vicious CSM.

I thought people were being bitter about cyno and engine trails. They are bitter at time being wasted, not pursuing low-hanging fruit. This CSM is showing signs of holdign their lemonade and fanning them in the harvest heat, on the porch.Confused

Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 11:46:00 - [289]
 

Originally by: Qoi
Yes they will be able to enter the system, or you could just put 2000 Trial Alts in Rifters in a system to protect it from all attacks.

I think you'll find that utilizing 50-100 SCs all attacking something will do a lot more for sucking up CPU resources than just flying around with a few thousand rifters.

I wouldn't mind seeing what a 2000 strong rifter fleet could take down, however.

Originally by: Lusulpher
Pretty much. Skipped to last page after I saw a pile of Goons quoting their own broken arguments as valid questioning/observation. I am aware they are trying to inflate the priority of LAG WARFARE as CCP might be watching, and then not losing anymore Titans/Moms to LAG also improves their power projection...conflict of interest, much?

Yes, yes, it's all a goon-lead conspiracy to save our titans and supercarrier. It wouldn't have lead to a lot of good fights between the NC/DRF in geminate, and it certainly won't have knock-on effects like making things like using bombers a valid tactic again. Nope. It's only to save our titans and supercarriers.Rolling Eyes

Go back to failheap with your conspiracy theories.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.04.14 11:57:00 - [290]
 

Time dilation? Really?

So, CSM6 is, in effect, throwing away all the hard work and progress of all the CSMs before them, dropping support for concepts and ideas that have been proposed, supported and asked for by the player base for many, many years to chase after some brand new feature just mentioned at Fanfest???

CSM6 is a) doing exactly what CCP wants them to do and b) clearly more concerned about fleet fight lag than any of the dozens of other, previously supported, initiatives by CSM5.

WTF? Who elected a bunch of f'ing goons to CSM anyway? :P

Seriously, I'm not impressed. Fleet lag should get attention, no doubt, *but it's gotten 99% of the f'ing core development time for the past year* and it's nae improved much. Time dilation would be cool, however, frankly, there are dozens of other, widely supported by the player base, initiatives CSM didn't even touch on or comment on in their 'note' to the playerbase.

CSM6 == FAIL if the only concern is fleet lag, which it would appear from what I've seen thus far to be their only bone of contention. Thanks for thinking about the rest of the player base.

Time to start hunting goons again! w00t! w00t!

Lord Zim
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 12:27:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent
Seriously, I'm not impressed. Fleet lag should get attention, no doubt, *but it's gotten 99% of the f'ing core development time for the past year* and it's nae improved much.

Citation needed on the "core development time" figure.

As to "nae improved much", it's only gone from something which didn't work at all (and affected people in empire as well) to allowing 500+ fights in systems with nary a problem (albeit lag if supers are involved), and 1000+ with lag. Nae improved at all, nope.

Originally by: Consortium Agent
CSM6 == FAIL if the only concern is fleet lag, which it would appear from what I've seen thus far to be their only bone of contention. Thanks for thinking about the rest of the player base.

I, too, make assumptions on what someone will do for a full year based upon their first few days of work.

Originally by: Consortium Agent
Time to start hunting goons again! w00t! w00t!

You know where to find us.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:00:00 - [292]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 14/04/2011 13:25:38
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1496231&page=1#30
_

The real question is... why even dilate time at all ?
All that's REALLY needed is a reduction in server tick frequency.


You already have stuff that does not take an integer number of seconds to accomplish, and I HOPE we can assume that if you have, say, a 5.98 seconds RoF that's noticeably worse than 5.51 seconds RoF for DPS purposes, for instance.

Yes, the system will become slightly less responsive, but that sidesteps A LOT of the problems which would be associated with actually altering the flow of time.
You know, things like how do you deal with reinforcement timers, the fact that you make it easier for reinforcements to arrive, how do you handle cynos which have an effect outside the solar system and so on and so forth.

Simply altering the sampling size from the current 1 second to X seconds SHOULD be enough, and also easier to code (wherever you have any calculation that involves time, instead of using "1 second", use "X seconds" instead).

Heck, that could go the other way around too.
You could set "X" at 0.5, for instance, for nodes with very light loads, and people would get a much more responsive system.

Originally by: CCP Veritas
I can say with a reasonable amount of authority that this is far less than what is really needed. A large portion of load (namely, anything to do with modules) does not operate on Destiny's tick.
Using any specific system as the safety valve for the server is just begging for unfairness between systems - like being able to shoot guns but not being able to warp out, or visa-versa. Trying to balance them all so they degrade themselves in their own way at rates that everyone is happy with is, imo, an impossible task.


Well, apparently, it has to be time dilation.
Neutral

SecretMoonBase
Posted - 2011.04.14 13:54:00 - [293]
 

Originally by: Consortium Agent
Time dilation? Really?

So, CSM6 is, in effect, throwing away all the hard work and progress of all the CSMs before them, dropping support for concepts and ideas that have been proposed, supported and asked for by the player base for many, many years to chase after some brand new feature just mentioned at Fanfest???


What hard work and progress are you referring to?

Quote:

CSM6 is a) doing exactly what CCP wants them to do and b) clearly more concerned about fleet fight lag than any of the dozens of other, previously supported, initiatives by CSM5.



How did you come to this conclusion?

Quote:

WTF? Who elected a bunch of f'ing goons to CSM anyway? :P



The playerbase did.

Quote:

Seriously, I'm not impressed.



I'm sure The Mittani is heartbroken.

Quote:
Fleet lag should get attention, no doubt, *but it's gotten 99% of the f'ing core development time for the past year* and it's nae improved much. Time dilation would be cool, however, frankly, there are dozens of other, widely supported by the player base, initiatives CSM didn't even touch on or comment on in their 'note' to the playerbase.



Translation: Fleet lag is a serious problem and I'm glad it's being discussed but why are they only discussing that in their first 'note' im a big babby i want them to talk about other things too!

Quote:

CSM6 == FAIL if the only concern is fleet lag, which it would appear from what I've seen thus far to be their only bone of contention. Thanks for thinking about the rest of the player base.



I don't see any of your ideas, just a dumb meme (EQUALS FAIL DURRRRHURRRRR) and a whole lot of whining. I suppose empty cans really do rattle the loudest.

Quote:

Time to start hunting goons again! w00t! w00t!


We live in Deklein, in the VFK system. Come and get us tough guy

DaiTengu
Gallente
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.04.14 14:11:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Lusulpher

Pretty much. Skipped to last page after I saw a pile of Goons quoting their own broken arguments as valid questioning/observation. I am aware they are trying to inflate the priority of LAG WARFARE as CCP might be watching, and then not losing anymore Titans/Moms to LAG also improves their power projection...conflict of interest, much?


Well, I'm sure you'll skip over this because DURRR HURR GOONSWARM REPLY, but I'll make an effort anyway.

Almost all of the Titans & supercarriers we've lost in the past year have not been in laggy fights, but due to stupidity because goons are dumb. They've all been ganked by small fleets in unlagged systems, or, in my case, jumping ******edly into large, unlagged systems to try and ninja a carrier kill :hurr:

Originally by: Lusulpher
Also as someone who monitors UI changes on Assembly Hall, I can guarantee you that Drone UI does not take 2 Devs or a year to improve. But CCP has drones rebelling EVERY PATCH, and they attack triggers in missions! And yet, I have to ask for the healthbars to be reversed...

If CCP can't dedicate a UI Dev to fix an easy corner that 75% of EvE uses daily, we need an absolutely vicious CSM.

I thought people were being bitter about cyno and engine trails. They are bitter at time being wasted, not pursuing low-hanging fruit. This CSM is showing signs of holdign their lemonade and fanning them in the harvest heat, on the porch.Confused


Look, the CSM has been in office... what, a week and a half? They found something they all immediately could rally around, and decided to run with it. There's plenty of other things on the docket and I'm sure they'll talk about it more on Saturday.

step back for a minute and take a look, set your in-game anger aside (we know that ebil goonie touched you in the bad place) for a few minutes and take the time to read this entire thread. Plenty of members of the CSM have commented on what they want to see out of CSM6, so don't dismiss them off-handedly.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.04.14 15:31:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Cearain
CSM now informs us that is broken and a lie. So what is the point? What is the purpose of having players spending time debating and reading proposals if the current csm thinks that is a bust?

I believe you are stretching things unreasonably.




Time will tell. We shall see what efforts CSM6 makes to push the assembly hall ideas. Lets see how many get voted on in CSM6.

Based on this letter from csm 6 it appears the focus will be on claiming credit for doing nothing more than finding things ccp is already working on.

I also think we will see some red herrings as well. They will go along these lines: “Someone at ccp said something that could be interpreted to mean they intend to _______(fill in bad or otherwise upsetting proposal, remove jump bridges, give flacons a dooms day, whatever) We at CSM are rallying against this and protecting the players by using our high powered political influence to prevent that horrible idea from happening. And as you can see this idea was not implemented so we are successful.”

CCP could of course have done a dev blog on this time dilation themselves. They could have gotten feedback from players that way. But why not also pull csm into it? That way they kill 2 birds with one stone. Yay ccp for working on lag and Yay ccp for giving us this wonderful csm to represent us. I predict there will be more of this. Instead of just posting dev blogs about what they are doing maybe they can check with csm and see if csm wants to tag along on this or that idea and therefore get credit for “spotlighting it.”

In other words CSM is truly heading in the direction of being nothing more than self-promotion for those individuals on it, and PR for ccp. The players and their ideas really won’t enter this equation.

I hope I’m wrong but time will tell.

Mr Cleann
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.14 18:39:00 - [296]
 

The CSM has great potential. But despite the fact that CCP does not have to follow through with what the CSM has to say, or at least give it serious consideration, then what is the point of having a CSM. For the moment it all looks to be a giant waste of time for all involved.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.04.14 22:33:00 - [297]
 

Edited by: Consortium Agent on 14/04/2011 22:51:51
Originally by: Lord Zim

Originally by: Consortium Agent
CSM6 == FAIL if the only concern is fleet lag, which it would appear from what I've seen thus far to be their only bone of contention. Thanks for thinking about the rest of the player base.

I, too, make assumptions on what someone will do for a full year based upon their first few days of work.



Really? That's horrid. I make assumptions on the information presented by the CSM to the player base. Can't help it if 'spotlighting' a single issue, which by all accounts benefits the majority members of the CSM more than it does the majority of the player base, is causing folks to raise an eyebrow and call you on your sh*t.

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.04.14 22:38:00 - [298]
 

Edited by: Consortium Agent on 14/04/2011 23:01:23
Originally by: SecretMoonBase

Quote:
Fleet lag should get attention, no doubt, *but it's gotten 99% of the f'ing core development time for the past year* and it's nae improved much. Time dilation would be cool, however, frankly, there are dozens of other, widely supported by the player base, initiatives CSM didn't even touch on or comment on in their 'note' to the playerbase.



Translation: Fleet lag is a serious problem and I'm glad it's being discussed but why are they only discussing that in their first 'note' im a big babby i want them to talk about other things too!



Translation: CSM6 epic failed to deliver a concise message to the player base and chose, instead, to try this 'spotlighting' thing, choosing something the CSM5 *already pushed through and made clear to CCP* (e.g. fleet lag), dismissing all other notions of the players having any voice whatsoever and putting forth your own agenda - in other words... you're doing zip, zero, nada except riding the coat tails of CCP and the progress made with CSM5 on fleet lag and furthering this by pushing for a feature which can only mean more win for you in massive fleet battles, of which the majority of the player base do not participate. I call it like I see it. That's how I see it.

Originally by: SecretMoonBase

Quote:

Time to start hunting goons again! w00t! w00t!


We live in Deklein, in the VFK system. Come and get us tough guy



You don't have to tell me where you live, noob. I already know. And if I didn't, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out... and if it did... well I have Rocket Science lvl 5 :P

And my, how easy it is to shake up the goons with a few words roflmao. Easy, way too f'ing easy. :P I might actually enjoy watching you tards sign your own death warrant with this whole CSM thing. Doh!

Consortium Agent
Posted - 2011.04.14 23:23:00 - [299]
 

Hmmm... since the CSM believes it is like a governing body, ought we not have an impeachment process in case something like, I dunno, the goons taking over CSM happens and we need to take action against their single minded agenda?

CCP? Comments, please.

GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.14 23:59:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud on 15/04/2011 00:03:03
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ahh so this is the forum thread i should have been posting on after all this time! :)


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