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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.04.16 20:00:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Che Biko
Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Also, societies so desperate that so many will consistently throw their lives away for pennies does not jive with a believable technologically developed society.

Keep in mind though, that wealth, luxury and technology probably is as well spread in New Eden as it is on earth (not). Although the west is pretty wealthy and advanced in technology, there's billions of people living on 1 dollar a day, and usually don't have much access to stuff like internet, microwaves and stuff.
You won't believe the stuff some refugees go through to make it into the west.
So I'm guessing there's at least a significant portion of New Eden that's desperate enough.


But if people are that isolated, how can they have sufficient education to be useful as starship crew? And if tasks are so simple that completely uneducated, untrained people can do them, why have those tasks not been simply automated? Like most sci-fi universes, the sociological economy of the eve world falls apart the second you think about it.

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2011.04.16 22:40:00 - [32]
 

Well, I once read a story in EON about someone who lied about his education to join a capsuleer ship. He kinda worshipped that egger like a god.
Considering the demand for crew members, I would think it's a plausible scenario that background checking isn't too thorough.

I also think the opposite might be true, capsuleers might lie about the survival rate of their ships.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.04.17 00:23:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Che Biko
Well, I once read a story in EON about someone who lied about his education to join a capsuleer ship. He kinda worshipped that egger like a god.
Considering the demand for crew members, I would think it's a plausible scenario that background checking isn't too thorough.

I also think the opposite might be true, capsuleers might lie about the survival rate of their ships.


With billions dying a year, I doubt the secret would be still in the bag.

The whole crew thing is really undeveloped. Pretty much everything not strictly about capsuleers is undeveloped, and even many things regarding capsuleers.

Wyke Mossari
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.17 07:39:00 - [34]
 


In the same way there are racial modifiers for crew sizes there should also be the similar modifiers for escape rates based on racial design; system security; perhaps sovereignty.

The Amarr design are unlikely to be unduly concerned with providing lifeboats for slave crews (e.g -20% survival). The Gallente and Caldari by comparison are likely to have sufficient lifeboats for the entire crew, with the number successfully launched mostly governed by circumstances (0%). The sheer will to survive and no man or slave left behind attitude giving the Minmatar enhanced survival rates (+5%).

Given the CONCORD rapid response in high sec, I find it some likely that crew that didn't make it to life boats could be rescued from air tight sections or safe havens in wrecks (c.f. Empyrean Age). Perhaps similar to the system security as a percentage e.g. +1% to -1%.

There are reasons why they both Gallente and Caldari might have enhanced rescue capability in their sovereignty. The Gallente passion for life and relative wealth. The pragmatic need of the Caldari to minimise losses due to their smaller population.




Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.04.17 13:09:00 - [35]
 



Uh ... lets see ... how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin ...


*sigh*

Yeah ... we've all known for some time that the ships were supposed to have crews - but - the game doesn't include them. There are no ejection capsules for crews ... etc ... etc ...




Now ... about Amarrians having Slaves in their crews ... no one in their right mind would crew their warships with slaves. If you've seen Ben Hur - it's bull ****. No one risked their war ships on the performance of a bunch of slaves. Boarding was common place in ancient times and you'd have just been giving the enemy a whole bunch of people on your ship to help them if they could be set free. Whatever other ships might have had slave crews - I don't know - but the war ships didn't.

If it has some how been cannonized into EVE back story that the Amarrians use slaves on their war ships - then THAT is just bull ****.

Of course ... there's already so much bull **** in the EVE back story ... that a little more won't make any difference.

.

Wen Jaibao
Aperture Harmonics
Posted - 2011.04.17 15:30:00 - [36]
 

Well I hope this means we'll start seeing crew bonuses on the drawing board.

Saju Somtaaw
Kagan-Kincaid Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.18 05:16:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

Now ... about Amarrians having Slaves in their crews ... no one in their right mind would crew their warships with slaves. If you've seen Ben Hur - it's bull ****. No one risked their war ships on the performance of a bunch of slaves. Boarding was common place in ancient times and you'd have just been giving the enemy a whole bunch of people on your ship to help them if they could be set free. Whatever other ships might have had slave crews - I don't know - but the war ships didn't.

If it has some how been cannonized into EVE back story that the Amarrians use slaves on their war ships - then THAT is just bull ****.

Of course ... there's already so much bull **** in the EVE back story ... that a little more won't make any difference.

.



Did you miss the fact that the Amarr use Vitoc to keep slaves in line? Considering that as of now their is no easy supply of the antidote and the "virus" Vitoc contains/controls mutates randomly and regularly in a manner only the Amarr can predict I think its not unrealistic for Amarr ships to use heavy slave labor. Plus boarding doesn't happen often with Eve ships.

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2011.04.18 09:48:00 - [38]
 

On slaves:

Despite the caricatured handling of slaves in fiction, I would personally find it likely that a good portion of the Amarr slave population is either throughly brainwashed or otherwise in such of a position that they obey their masters not out of fear or chemical dependence, but because "that's what they do". Of course, keeping them hooked to a drug which main function is to keep them hooked to itself helps when you control the supply, but I'd assume it's only needed on some of the population.

Also on Vitoc & Insorum (Vitoc antidote): I understand that Insorum is highly poisonous to the population which is not treated with Vitoc. So if Insorum spreads, it is advantageous to the Amarr to use other means to supplement Vitoc - since that way, if the Freedom Fighters resort to mass use of Insorum (say, aerial spray) again, they'll kill a lot more of their own kinsmen that they'd do now.

On crew:

Yes, ships have crew. Some crew survives, some doesn't. I understand that one of the chronicles deals with crew that has been salvaged from wrecks, living in storage hangars outside all records. So, when you loot a module, you're likely to pick up the surviving portion of its crew, as well.

I wouldn't mind if crew would appear in the salvage loot tables for ship wrecks. Crew even could be used the same way as rigs - or even replace some rigs as equivalent crew squads (for example: "expert gunner crew quarters" as a module to the crew/rig slot). If you fire (remove) a crew, you lose it as they head elsewhere to seek for jobs. (Though that creates a problem if you do that in space, immersion-wise.)

Jaik7
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:04:00 - [39]
 

someone mentioned rogue drones earlier as reasons why a ship could not be fully automated, but it seems to me that the drones are not actually sentient and innovative. i'm certain that obedient and advanced drones could be made if they programed them properly.

there's a number of behaviors that rogue drones engage in that make them seem intteligent, but they are no more intelligent than a crystal formation. both have order, both grow, both are inorganic.

all behaviors shown by rogue drones are shown in controled drones. combat, construction, mining, and exploration are what rogue drones are best known for. all of these behaviors have been used in controlled drones without them becoming alive. the rogue drones just had faulty programming that made them selfreplicate like a cancer. they are nothing more than tumors, errors in the programming.

i see no reason why ships, gallentean in particular, would need anyone more than a capsuleer.

Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2011.04.19 16:47:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

Now ... about Amarrians having Slaves in their crews ... no one in their right mind would crew their warships with slaves. If you've seen Ben Hur - it's bull ****. No one risked their war ships on the performance of a bunch of slaves. Boarding was common place in ancient times and you'd have just been giving the enemy a whole bunch of people on your ship to help them if they could be set free. Whatever other ships might have had slave crews - I don't know - but the war ships didn't.

If it has some how been cannonized into EVE back story that the Amarrians use slaves on their war ships - then THAT is just bull ****.

Of course ... there's already so much bull **** in the EVE back story ... that a little more won't make any difference.

.



This is EVE, not Ben Hur.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.19 20:38:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Jaik7
someone mentioned rogue drones earlier as reasons why a ship could not be fully automated, but it seems to me that the drones are not actually sentient and innovative. i'm certain that obedient and advanced drones could be made if they programed them properly.

there's a number of behaviors that rogue drones engage in that make them seem intteligent, but they are no more intelligent than a crystal formation. both have order, both grow, both are inorganic.

all behaviors shown by rogue drones are shown in controled drones. combat, construction, mining, and exploration are what rogue drones are best known for. all of these behaviors have been used in controlled drones without them becoming alive. the rogue drones just had faulty programming that made them selfreplicate like a cancer. they are nothing more than tumors, errors in the programming.

i see no reason why ships, gallentean in particular, would need anyone more than a capsuleer.


That is what happened when a group of scientist tried to examine a small rogue drone: Postnatal

The drone in the story was only a very small one build to support the much larger combat combat rogue drones, the drone equivalent of a crew member.

A fully automated ship gives an AI, or even a hive of AI a very powerful tool and when the drones are intelligent enough to work without direct human observation and control, then they can function completely without humans. With a fully drone staffed crew, the drones will probably at one point decide to eject and kill his pod and then go their own way.

CCP Delegate Zero

Posted - 2011.04.20 19:38:00 - [42]
 

As promised, the public version of the ship crew guidelines has been published: New Eden Crew Guidelines

This evelopedia entry supersedes the slide shown at FanFest 2011.

The keen-eyed observers among you (so that's everyone) will note slight changes and some additional notes. In short, we took on board your feedback and we think the final version is the best guide to the issue of ship crews in New Eden.

Do take note of the word 'guidelines'. This information is not intended to be prescriptive or constraining on your imaginations as players. The entry discusses typical situations but New Eden is a diverse world and capsuleers are among the most diverse of its inhabitants.

Not every aspect of crewing is dealt with either. Some questions you have raised are best left in the realm of your imaginations.

Have fun,
Zero


Cyrus Doul
E0 Corp
Posted - 2011.04.21 07:12:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Mithfindel
stuff...

I wouldn't mind if crew would appear in the salvage loot tables for ship wrecks. Crew even could be used the same way as rigs - or even replace some rigs as equivalent crew squads (for example: "expert gunner crew quarters" as a module to the crew/rig slot). If you fire (remove) a crew, you lose it as they head elsewhere to seek for jobs. (Though that creates a problem if you do that in space, immersion-wise.)


I support anything that makes eve more like Sid Meiers Pirates. That game was the best.

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.04.21 08:05:00 - [44]
 

"Slight changes"?
Frigates suddenly have crews now.
DERP.

Haikato Saraki
Posted - 2011.04.21 12:10:00 - [45]
 

One important thing I really think needs to be remembered here is that EVE is a universe that is post-singularity. Death is in many ways almost optional. Consider this; Dust will be released "soon". Dust will be an online first person shooter set in the same multi-player universe as EVE. I can think of very few online FPS games that do NOT feature some type of re-spawning. Re-spawning is functionally identical to what happens when your pod is destroyed.

I don't think it is a huge logical leap to assume that some of the soldiers in Dust will be using similar technology to the capsules in orbit. If a soldier can use it then is there any reason why a specialist couldn't as well? A highly trained warp field technician? A sensor specialist? or a mechanic?
Sure the clone quality wouldn't be as good as a capsulers but then it doesn't necessarily need to be.

In addition medical advances in a universe like EVE would make current day medicin look medieval. Genetic manipulation at conception would meen that modern diseases and ailments are eliminated completely. "Old age" could be a thing of the past.

Heres another thing to think about. In developing country's people make babies. Like a lot. Mortality rate is high but if you assume higher levels of medical technology then survival rates could mean as many as 90% of all births on boarder worlds make it to age 20 - 30.
I recall a L1 or 2 mission from an agent that implied there are "skill-books" for the layman (mission was basicaly about the agent setting up a POS) while another Sisters of EVE quest heavily implies that the currency conversion from ISK to local planetary currency is massive. The same, if not better, as converting Euro to Yen. A capsulers crew might cost less than 50 isk a week, in total, for a crew of 300 or more.
Think about it, while the pay would seem peanuts to us capsulers a few months aboard our ship could be enough to send the kids to space-collage, pay off the mortgage on the house and take an early retirement by the lake. Yeah the risk is very high but compared to a life on some crappy planet the excitement alone is probably enough to entice people.

Ze'ev Sinraali
Ataraxia Pharmacies
Posted - 2011.04.21 15:59:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Ze''ev Sinraali on 21/04/2011 16:00:13
So, who wants to buy some advanced technologies to fill out their crew requirements? Very Happy

Addendum: I would still like to get some clarification on the question of relative requirements for T2 ships. I've heard speculation that it's less, but it's also plausible that the advanced systems would require more.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.21 18:06:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 21/04/2011 18:08:38
Originally by: Haikato Saraki
One important thing I really think needs to be remembered here is that EVE is a universe that is post-singularity. Death is in many ways almost optional.



If Eve is a post-Singularity universe, then why are we still fighting wars over resources? With nano-tech resources would be infinitely abundant. And why are only POD pilots given immortality, and with such a flawed technology at that (mind lock)? And why do the Amarr still have Minmatar slaves when it would much easier for them to have robot slaves? New Eden is definitely not a post-Singularity universe...which I guess can be explained away by the dark age it went through after the collapse of the Eve Gate.

CCP Delegate Zero

Posted - 2011.04.21 18:12:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Ze'ev Sinraali

Addendum: I would still like to get some clarification on the question of relative requirements for T2 ships. I've heard speculation that it's less, but it's also plausible that the advanced systems would require more.


I would say that T2, T3 and faction ships (may as well include them here) are so varied and diverse in design, function, capability, etc. that it would be quite an effort to start clarifying and then stop at some arbitrary level (tech, class, sub-class, etc). The 'hull' figures can provide a guide but there is a fair latitude with the typical ranges we have provided and the atypical cases are no doubt plying their way through the spacelanes of New Eden.

One of those areas where player speculation and imagination has the run of the sandbox, in my own opinion.


Haikato Saraki
Posted - 2011.04.22 01:53:00 - [49]
 

Quote:
If Eve is a post-Singularity universe, then why are we still fighting wars over resources? With nano-tech resources would be infinitely abundant. And why are only POD pilots given immortality, and with such a flawed technology at that (mind lock)? And why do the Amarr still have Minmatar slaves when it would much easier for them to have robot slaves? New Eden is definitely not a post-Singularity universe...which I guess can be explained away by the dark age it went through after the collapse of the Eve Gate.


You cant build something from nothing. Honestly, production and refinery methods in EVE are beyond anything within our current or imaginable grasp. A few hundred asteroids can be turned into a battleship in less than a month compared to the years it might take to build a super carrier here on earth. Considering that battleships are significantly larger than a super carrier that's no small feat.

And whos to say other people ARNT given the same kind of immortality? as I said, if soldiers in Dust are using similar technology to what capsulers use then couldn't anyone?

As for the Amarr and why the POD tech is so flawed I dont have any good answers. Although I was under the impression that Amarr had a religious obsession with slavery.


EVE is definitely a dystopian universe but a universe advanced enough that one could consider it post singularity.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.04.22 02:13:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Haikato Saraki

As for the Amarr and why the POD tech is so flawed I dont have any good answers. Although I was under the impression that Amarr had a religious obsession with slavery.


EVE is definitely a dystopian universe but a universe advanced enough that one could consider it post singularity.


Confirming that the Amarr view slavery as genuinely beneficial the slaves, in that it "enlightens" them and "brings them closer to God". As for the pod tech, it actually isn't that flawed. It's actually a pretty novel idea, if you think about it.

As for the whole "post-Singularity" thing the EVE cluster is...for a price. Capsuleers and those on their payroll (DUST mercenaries) as well as high-ranking political and business leaders certainly have access to infomorph and cloning tech. At the same time the common planet-dweller is basically exploited for the benefit of the above-mentioned. So is EVE post-Singularity? Yes. But is it post-scarcity? Of course not.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.22 11:01:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 22/04/2011 11:01:23
Originally by: Haikato Saraki
Quote:
If Eve is a post-Singularity universe, then why are we still fighting wars over resources? With nano-tech resources would be infinitely abundant. And why are only POD pilots given immortality, and with such a flawed technology at that (mind lock)? And why do the Amarr still have Minmatar slaves when it would much easier for them to have robot slaves? New Eden is definitely not a post-Singularity universe...which I guess can be explained away by the dark age it went through after the collapse of the Eve Gate.


You cant build something from nothing. Honestly, production and refinery methods in EVE are beyond anything within our current or imaginable grasp.



Well, no, not from nothing...from nanotubes and molecular machines. Once we go nano, we're effectively into post scarcity.

Originally by: Haikato Saraki

As for the Amarr and why the POD tech is so flawed I dont have any good answers. Although I was under the impression that Amarr had a religious obsession with slavery.


Yeah, that and sexual slavery are the only two things I can think of that would keep them from going with robotic slaves. Sick bastards.

Haikato Saraki
Posted - 2011.04.23 09:49:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 22/04/2011 11:01:23
Well, no, not from nothing...from nanotubes and molecular machines. Once we go nano, we're effectively into post scarcity.


Micro-factory's and nano-machines can make construction more efficient and faster but it doesn't change the fact that over 8 million units of Tritanium are needed to build a Megathron.

These are big ship and a lot of mass is required to build them.


Honestly, after the revision, all the numbers make sense to me.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.04.24 15:35:00 - [53]
 

Technically post-scarcity is a state in which goods and services are effectively free. This is clearly not the case in New Eden.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.24 18:13:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Rek Jaiga
Technically post-scarcity is a state in which goods and services are effectively free. This is clearly not the case in New Eden.


Yes, and they're free because their is a nearly unlimited supply with little to no human labor needed.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.04.25 00:21:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh


Yes, and they're free because their is a nearly unlimited supply with little to no human labor needed.

Which is definitely not the case in New Eden, as can be seen with the Amarr Empire especially.

X'aron
Caldari
Galactic Operations
Posted - 2011.06.23 02:39:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: X''aron on 23/06/2011 02:39:40
seriously, if a crew was even a big part or "required" to keep a ship going, wouldnt there be lifepods when our ships explode? all this is fluff with no content. No crew decks, no info about sleeping quarters, mess hall. No isk maintenance to keep them paid, nothing for food..etc.

if it was anything major anyhow. Its not, its just background stuff that people want to argue over. /off

Hiram Alexander
Caldari
Capital Enrichment Services
Posted - 2011.06.23 11:22:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: X'aron
Edited by: X''aron on 23/06/2011 02:39:40
<snip...> No crew decks, no info about sleeping quarters, mess hall. No isk maintenance to keep them paid, nothing for food..etc. <...snip>


Be careful what you wish for... Personally, I'd love to see crew in game, but *ahem* what's that gonna cost...? More than a skirt?

Checkout EON, soon(tm) --> Front cover, taken from Facebook


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