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Damion Rayne
Gallente
Dark-Rising
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2011.04.11 07:39:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Damion Rayne on 11/04/2011 07:45:15
CCP TonyG's Words Words Words a lovely video by CCP TonyG who reads some words from his new novel, goes over some info about Dust 514 and the Eve online IP as a whole and around 28 min into the video TonyG starts speaking about Ship Crews and posting this Chart..
Chart

So..the debate is over, this chart will be published officially by CCP Games. So there you have it, yes they do exist and yes there are crew on capsuleer piloted ships.

-DR

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.04.11 10:36:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Verone on 11/04/2011 10:39:07

If those numbers are being considered canon, then there's more than a few pieces of prime fiction that'll need re-hashing.

Looking at the link, the columns are also listed as MINIMUM crew... which would suggest an off-rota non-combat skeleton crew as described on FNS Wandering Saint in The Empyrean Age.

The list still doesn't give a clear representation of how heavily crewed hulls would be in a full service combat situation.



CCP Delegate Zero

Posted - 2011.04.11 10:46:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: CCP Delegate Zero on 11/04/2011 11:15:56

Originally by: Verone
If those numbers are being considered canon, then there's more than a few pieces of prime fiction that'll need re-hashing.




If you can think of any, do flag them up but on one possible point here it is worth bearing in mind Tony's commentary on the slide with respect to the difference between minimum crew and the max capacity. In summary: min crew = what's needed to undock an unfitted ship / max capacity = crew needed for fully-fitted ship with all modules plus also additional personnel (troops, passengers - now the thing is that how the max capacity divides into 'full crew'/'passengers' is left unspecified, which is probably a good thing - because it allows variances in story-telling how the ships are run such as different degrees of automation, etc, etc).

The point being that the slide does not contradict, for eg, Hands of a Killer.

Delegate Zero

PS. I should point out for clarity that the slide Tony shows is of a chart that has been used internally and any final public version may change in presentational terms. As such, I can't tell you that the chart itself has the status of formally published canon PF. It's an interesting insight into this aspect of the PF that we wanted to share with you and that's why Tony showed it at his talk. The intent to publish a version of this remains there of course.


Shaalira D'arc
Posted - 2011.04.11 20:14:00 - [4]
 

Thanks for sharing this.

Here's an alternate, more hi-res capture of the youtube chart, for better legibility. The spoken presentation gives context to the numbers, and you can hear it at around 28:43.

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2011.04.11 21:34:00 - [5]
 

FYI @ Delegate Zero:
Tony also said: "We are gonna publish this within the next 2 weeks" I guess my calendar must be off then, or I've missed it.

I guess you guys got sidetracked again. No biggie, I think the RP community is used to it by now.Wink

Azureite
Amarr
Special Forces Operation Detachment Delta
The 0rphanage
Posted - 2011.04.11 22:16:00 - [6]
 

I'm very pleased to see this

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.12 12:51:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 12/04/2011 12:58:15
Quite interesting. I would like to know if there are significant differences in the numbers of crew members in the tech levels of ship. I always assumed that T2 requires less crew then the T1 ship, because of less space used to accomodate crew they can afford to built in more advanced systems. Not sure where T3 stands there.

Edit:

I also wonder why Caldari have a +10% modifier for crew numbers and the Amarr a +5%.

The Caldari are one of the most advanced races in the EVE cluster. Whether the Caldari or Gallente have a more advanced design is debatable. For the Amarr life is cheap even in the hulls of a spaceship and few holders would mind the conditions the slaves would have to endure abord a cramped ship.

I would reduce the Caldari Modifier to 0% or even -5% while the Amarr get at least a +15% modifier.

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
Posted - 2011.04.12 13:10:00 - [8]
 

Publishing the information properly, possibly with reasoning, would be welcome.

Guesses:

Minmatar: Maintenance and manual-labour heavy technology, low level of automation.
Gallente: Drones.
Caldari: Maintenance-heavy high technology.
Amarr: Combination of low-maintenance technology, drones and still using a lot of manual labour.

Shaalira D'arc
Posted - 2011.04.12 16:04:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Deviana Sevidon

I also wonder why Caldari have a +10% modifier for crew numbers and the Amarr a +5%.


The Amarr have been in space far, far longer than the Caldari have. Technical development doesn't just involve research concepts, it also involves implementation experience and development over use.

It's quite feasible that the extensive Amarrian experience in spaceflight gives them a lot of insight into efficient ship design and cost-effective organization of crews.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.04.13 01:19:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 13/04/2011 01:20:07
-removed-

Fenris Ulfur
Bio Material Inc
Posted - 2011.04.13 13:20:00 - [11]
 

These numbers are already on the Wiki in the description of ship classes, and looking at the change history, have been since november 2010.

For example: Frigates and Cruisers

But still awesome to finally get hard numbers like those, and in a table no less Very Happy

Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
Split Infinity.
Posted - 2011.04.14 00:10:00 - [12]
 

I did some research on this last September, looking through EVE Chronicles and various other sources. Of particular interest were some old images of ship schematics which detailed crew and passenger numbers. They've been doing the rounds for years, but I can't be certain of the original source.

I wrote a Freebooted blogpost at that time detailing my findings.

There definitely appears to be some variation between these new figures and the information I found.

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2011.04.14 02:59:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Che Biko on 14/04/2011 03:00:22
I would still like to see more clarification to the chart. I've always understood that most frigates' only crew is the capsuleer, but if min. crew is about a ship with no modules, this may be somewhat different than we think.

For clarity, I would also like to know what a capsuleer ship needs as a minumum crew in the "worst case" scenario (fully fitted with labour intensive modules (the maximum minimum)).

Edit: See, it's not over. Laughing

Teranul
Posted - 2011.04.14 03:34:00 - [14]
 

It makes sense to me that capsuleer-piloted ships would have a number of crew for a fully-fitted ship somewhere between the top-end of the "min. crew" and the bottom end of the "max capacity".

But yeah, some clarification on that would most certainly be welcome. The Hands of a Killer chronicle says 6,314 for a capsuleer-piloted battleship... which doesn't sit right with me.

I mean, goodness. I thought half the point of capsuleer-piloted ships was the less stringent crew requirements. Kinda loses its prestige if fully-fitted ships end up with the same crew counts as baseliner-piloted ships...

Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
Split Infinity.
Posted - 2011.04.14 10:04:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Seismic Stan on 14/04/2011 10:09:41

With regard to the requirement of a crew even for a capsuleer-controlled ship, one thing that seems to smack of inconsistency is the existence of rogue drones. They are fully-automated self-sufficient machines, which strongly suggests that the technology exists for a ship of any size to operate without a crew.

In light of this fresh information, I wrote a quick blogpost about it. Eric Deloitte replied with a comment listing the following questions concerning crews, which are well worth consideration:

Who pays them, it certainly isnt me?

Why dont I have to pay millions in compensation to their families when my negligence leads to their untimely demise?

Why does Concord penalise you massively for killing a pod, but killing hundreds of crew warrants a minor sec hit?

Where do they come from, surely these people must be highly skilled and trained, why is there a never ending supply?

Why the hell do I need to dock to repair, surely one of the hundreds of meatbags stinking up my corridors can wield a spanner?

Teranul
Posted - 2011.04.14 16:05:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Teranul on 14/04/2011 16:07:17

I'm no dev, but I'm gonna give these a shot anyways.

Originally by: Seismic Stan

Who pays them, it certainly isnt me?
I assumed crew costs were included with the initial cost of the ship. However, this doesn't account for extended deployments. A most curious omission...

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Why dont I have to pay millions in compensation to their families when my negligence leads to their untimely demise?
Employee contracts.

They knew the risks when they signed up. In fact, many capsuleer-ship crew members are legally dead...

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Why does Concord penalise you massively for killing a pod, but killing hundreds of crew warrants a minor sec hit?
Life is cheap.

Except when it's a capsuleer. New Eden runs on money, y'know.

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Where do they come from, surely these people must be highly skilled and trained, why is there a never ending supply?
In a cluster with trillions of people, you really think finding trained professionals is an issue? Statistically speaking, capsuleers are less than 0.0000001% of the population. Hundreds of thousands of them in a star cluster with a population in the trillions.

Finding a few thousand crew members in such a world is child's play.

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Why the hell do I need to dock to repair, surely one of the hundreds of meatbags stinking up my corridors can wield a spanner?
They could do it, sure... it'd just take years to do it.

Think about how long it takes you to repair with a repair module, which has billions upon billions of advanced nanobots doing the work. Now think about a human trying to do the same.

Kind of a silly question, really. Razz

Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
Split Infinity.
Posted - 2011.04.14 22:10:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Teranul


I'm no dev, but I'm gonna give these a shot anyways.

Originally by: Seismic Stan

Who pays them, it certainly isnt me?
I assumed crew costs were included with the initial cost of the ship. However, this doesn't account for extended deployments. A most curious omission...


I agree, it is difficult to quantify. I suppose we could assume that there's some kind of personnel payment fund hidden within the various taxes that we pay. In other words, we don't pay the crews directly, their wage is supplied by the state. Not entirely satisfactory, but it's the best I can come up with.

Originally by: Teranul

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Why dont I have to pay millions in compensation to their families when my negligence leads to their untimely demise?
Employee contracts.

They knew the risks when they signed up. In fact, many capsuleer-ship crew members are legally dead...


Yeah, this one is easily explained away by the contract they sign at the start of their careers. Also, if we extend the state-backed wage scheme, some compensation could also come from the state which could explain why some individuals are willing to engage in such a dangerous occupation.

Originally by: Teranul

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Why does Concord penalise you massively for killing a pod, but killing hundreds of crew warrants a minor sec hit?
Life is cheap.

Except when it's a capsuleer. New Eden runs on money, y'know.

No argument from me - Capsuleers run the galactic economy. It does make you wonder how this got past the Sisters of EVE though.

Originally by: Teranul

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Where do they come from, surely these people must be highly skilled and trained, why is there a never ending supply?
In a cluster with trillions of people, you really think finding trained professionals is an issue? Statistically speaking, capsuleers are less than 0.0000001% of the population. Hundreds of thousands of them in a star cluster with a population in the trillions.

Finding a few thousand crew members in such a world is child's play.


I have to disagree here. I took the time to do the maths on this last year and if you consider all the crewed ships (NPC and capsuleer) that are destroyed on a daily basis, with the survival rates listed in CCP t0nyG's table, the attrition rate is shocking. Check out The End of New Eden is Nigh for more details. I admit, the figures for the total population of New Eden are very subjective (which is why I also wrote New Eden is Saved), but in principle the death toll seems unsustainable.

Originally by: Teranul

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Why the hell do I need to dock to repair, surely one of the hundreds of meatbags stinking up my corridors can wield a spanner?
They could do it, sure... it'd just take years to do it.

Think about how long it takes you to repair with a repair module, which has billions upon billions of advanced nanobots doing the work. Now think about a human trying to do the same.

Kind of a silly question, really. Razz


This makes sense. There is not really any way you could expect the ships crew to effective repairs anywhere near the rate we are used to from automated armour and hull repairers or from station facilities. It would be nice if an effective repair crew could give a slight boost to existing modules though, even if it could only be to a maximum percentage. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Teranul
Posted - 2011.04.14 23:03:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Teranul on 14/04/2011 23:04:51
Originally by: Seismic Stan
I have to disagree here. I took the time to do the maths on this last year and if you consider all the crewed ships (NPC and capsuleer) that are destroyed on a daily basis, with the survival rates listed in CCP t0nyG's table, the attrition rate is shocking. Check out The End of New Eden is Nigh for more details. I admit, the figures for the total population of New Eden are very subjective (which is why I also wrote New Eden is Saved), but in principle the death toll seems unsustainable.


Hahaha, wow!

I did always think the number of battleships I destroyed on a daily basis is pretty silly, but that really puts it into perspective. However, that is more a problem with NPC deaths, the sheer numbers of which are completely ridiculous no matter how you spin it.

I do sometimes wonder if it would be preferable to just buff all the NPC rats and cut their numbers in half or something to aid in the believability of the world. I'm killing hundreds of thousands of virtual people a day, and I'm just one capsuleer (in a ship more expensive than a medium-sized country's GDP, mind, but still just one)!

Then again, I imagine the birth rate is also astronomically high in the EVE Universe... who can really say? I'd love it if a CCP-er could weigh in on this *hint, hint*... Wink

Loving the discussion, by the way. It's always nice to flesh out the world a bit. One of the biggest appeals of sci-fi, at least to me. Smile

Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
Split Infinity.
Posted - 2011.04.15 00:06:00 - [19]
 

I've just done a bit of number-crunching based on my previously mentioned figures, applying the listed crew survival rates.

If we work on the basis that, over the course of a year, 10 trillion crewmen are aboard starships at the time of destruction and the average crew survival rate is approximately 35% (the ball-park average of the figures listed in the table), this means that 6.5 trillion are dying in space per year.

Given that I've calculated that the population of New Eden is roughly 250 trillion, 6.5 trillion deaths per year would wipe out the entire population in a little under 40 years.

The 21st Century population mortality rate is 0.84%. The New Eden crew mortality rate is over three times that at 2.6%.

I suspect that the general mortality rate in New Eden is as high, if not higher than modern day. For every safe developed world in New Eden, there are many more frontier worlds, so I doubt that advanced medicine and cloning technology will be making much of a dent in galactic mortality rates from other causes of death like old age, disease and war (especially given the previously mentioned 'life is cheap' philosophy that seems to be prevalent in New Eden). 21st century Earthbound life provides few harsh frontiers compared to New Eden. So let's call New Eden's general mortality rate 1%.

1%+2.6%=3.6%

At a 3.6% galactic mortality rate I think, as BSG's President Laura Roslin once said; "People need to start having babies."


Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.04.15 05:02:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Seismic Stan
With regard to the requirement of a crew even for a capsuleer-controlled ship, one thing that seems to smack of inconsistency is the existence of rogue drones. They are fully-automated self-sufficient machines, which strongly suggests that the technology exists for a ship of any size to operate without a crew.

Because the development of that technology had great results. The word "rogue" in "rogue drones" is just propaganda from overly harsh critics, amirite?

Seismic Stan
Greenbeard's Freebooters
Split Infinity.
Posted - 2011.04.15 10:44:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Mirabi Tiane
Originally by: Seismic Stan
With regard to the requirement of a crew even for a capsuleer-controlled ship, one thing that seems to smack of inconsistency is the existence of rogue drones. They are fully-automated self-sufficient machines, which strongly suggests that the technology exists for a ship of any size to operate without a crew.

Because the development of that technology had great results. The word "rogue" in "rogue drones" is just propaganda from overly harsh critics, amirite?


I see your point, but there are non-rogue drones in common usage too. I merely used rogue drones to exemplify that the technology exists and it is possible to fully automate a ship, not that it didn't need refinement.

I appreciate that CCP t0nyG's table reflects the use of drone technology with the percentage modifiers, but it seems odd to me that drones (be they rogue or otherwise) have mechanical systems within that allow for the reloading of weapons, the control of fuels, the redirection of energy for shields and even basic decision-making, yet those same systems require crew on a capsuleer-controlled ship despite the huge advantages of capsule-tech. Like I said, inconsistent.

But I don't really mind. Personally, I prefer the idea of having a crew, but I cannot see why the canon wouldn't allow those brave enough to fully automate their ships unless there are future plans to include some kind of crew mechanic into the game.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.15 15:40:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Seismic Stan
Edited by: Seismic Stan on 14/04/2011 10:09:41

With regard to the requirement of a crew even for a capsuleer-controlled ship, one thing that seems to smack of inconsistency is the existence of rogue drones. They are fully-automated self-sufficient machines, which strongly suggests that the technology exists for a ship of any size to operate without a crew.



That's what I'm saying. A fully automated crew seems not only plausible, but the most likely scenario in New Eden. Why the hell would you have 6,000 meat-bags on your ship, crapping in the john, eating all of your food, and more or less stinking up the place?

On the same note, why do the Amarr need slaves? Wouldn't it be FAR easier to automate and make robots your slaves instead? You don't have to feed and house them, or force inject them with Vitoc, and they will never rebel. Seems logical to me, unless of course the reason you keep slaves is sexual in nature (which wouldn't surprise me with the Amarr...just sayin).

For me these are huge holes big enough to fly a titan through; it has a big impact on immersion. But I do understand that it's a tight line to walk between making a believable world and having a great game; some compromise and fudging is necessary to make both of them work together.

Idonis Callor
Posted - 2011.04.15 18:23:00 - [23]
 

Not only rogue drones operate crewless, Gallente ships Prior to the Gallente/Caldari War were meant to be nothing but oversized drones.

San Fransisco
Red Federation
Posted - 2011.04.15 20:22:00 - [24]
 

I would like a "Crew" update. the different ship sizes could have different crew slots and you would have to hire crew at a station to restock after a ship loss.

Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2011.04.15 20:49:00 - [25]
 

Seismic Stan said "have mechanical systems within that allow for the reloading of weapons, the control of fuels, the redirection of energy for shields and even basic decision-making, yet those same systems require crew on a capsuleer-controlled ship despite the huge advantages of capsule-tech. Like I said, inconsistent. "
But those systems don't require crew. Didn't tony list some of those examples like reloading of weapons as automated with drones for Gallente while the others choose to use humans.

Also those are examples of typical ships so there is no reason you cannot role-play that you have more automatic systems them normal due to some custom rigs. There is no reason all Minmatar have to do the things the hard way with more crew there could be some Minmatar that automate lots of drones.

Think of a ship like a Dominix there are most likely 100's if not 1000's of variations of the base hull over the years. Kind of like cars where you get custom modified cars.
I don't see anything wrong or inconsistent. Those crew numbers are just guidelines.

Roga Dracor
Caldari
Mental Disorders Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.15 21:48:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Roga Dracor on 15/04/2011 22:10:16
The biggest reason the Empires don't use drones to fully automate a ship is pretty obvious from fiction. The "rogue" drones are self aware. They are sentient. To use drones in the capacities you infer would require the same AI that caused the "rogues" to emerge as sentient beings.

And would then require a system of control or full acquiesense of the personalities the "rogues" have developed. So either you compensate the drones in some way, or you develop an electronic Vitoc to control them, which would effectively make you just another slaver.

Another question that has never really been answered is what is the true evolution of the "Rogues"? Whose to say they have always been less than human? There is that one chronicle about a "rogue" trying to regain what it lost, by rebirthing itself in a most macabre fashion, emulating human birthing as closely as possible.

Logan LaMort
Gallente
Posted - 2011.04.15 23:33:00 - [27]
 

I'm quite pleased with these kinds of numbers, I mean, they're pretty much spot on for how I imagined it with ships of these size.

Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
Posted - 2011.04.16 01:43:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Emperor Cheney on 16/04/2011 01:44:22
Originally by: Seismic Stan
I've just done a bit of number-crunching based on my previously mentioned figures, applying the listed crew survival rates.

If we work on the basis that, over the course of a year, 10 trillion crewmen are aboard starships at the time of destruction and the average crew survival rate is approximately 35% (the ball-park average of the figures listed in the table), this means that 6.5 trillion are dying in space per year.

Given that I've calculated that the population of New Eden is roughly 250 trillion, 6.5 trillion deaths per year would wipe out the entire population in a little under 40 years.

The 21st Century population mortality rate is 0.84%. The New Eden crew mortality rate is over three times that at 2.6%.

I suspect that the general mortality rate in New Eden is as high, if not higher than modern day. For every safe developed world in New Eden, there are many more frontier worlds, so I doubt that advanced medicine and cloning technology will be making much of a dent in galactic mortality rates from other causes of death like old age, disease and war (especially given the previously mentioned 'life is cheap' philosophy that seems to be prevalent in New Eden). 21st century Earthbound life provides few harsh frontiers compared to New Eden. So let's call New Eden's general mortality rate 1%.

1%+2.6%=3.6%

At a 3.6% galactic mortality rate I think, as BSG's President Laura Roslin once said; "People need to start having babies."




Agreed, it's silly. Also, societies so desperate that so many will consistently throw their lives away for pennies does not jive with a believable technologically developed society. What would make it all work out is drastically increasing the survival rate. If 90% expected to survive an exploding ship, then it would make sense why so many would choose the life of a space fairer, if the pay was good enough.

But a lot of things in the EVE world are silly. Like why there's hundreds of pirate battleships in Motsu on any given day. Why CONCORD can't stop those pirate battleships. And why every one of those pirate battleships will always, always fight to the death.

Che Biko
Humanitarian Communists
Posted - 2011.04.16 02:36:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Emperor Cheney
Also, societies so desperate that so many will consistently throw their lives away for pennies does not jive with a believable technologically developed society.

Keep in mind though, that wealth, luxury and technology probably is as well spread in New Eden as it is on earth (not). Although the west is pretty wealthy and advanced in technology, there's billions of people living on 1 dollar a day, and usually don't have much access to stuff like internet, microwaves and stuff.
You won't believe the stuff some refugees go through to make it into the west.
So I'm guessing there's at least a significant portion of New Eden that's desperate enough.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.04.16 10:32:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 19/04/2011 20:27:33
All ships use probably drones for various tasks, but they still need to be controlled by humans, or at least a human overseer who can respond to situations that fall outside the drones initial programming. Using more advanced AIs instead might be possible, but it is also quite dangerous.

So drones with limited AI are useless without human instructions, but drones with advanced AI cannot be trusted and might go rogue.


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