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Idami Raptor
Gallente
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:06:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: krickettt
Supported. Tired of broken features. CCP needs a new QA team as well.

Speaking of which, I heard whispers of unconfirmed rumours that CCP actually lost a noticeable portion of their former testers not so long ago (fuzzy on the details as to why though), so basically, they're running with an understaffed and overworked QA team.
Would love to get an official denial of that, but appearances do lend a lot of credence to those rumours.
It would certainly explain a few things.



I've been thinking about this... I'm not going to blame QA anymore.

We've seen that when people do point out problems with features that they are ignored and pushed through anyway (and you might get a ban on top of it).

This is a management problem. A lack of resolve to quality.


I think so too, a lot of it smacks of them having a bona-fide american style corporate exec in there somewhere. It affects everything below them, because someone like that punishes anyone that tells them anything but what they want to hear, tends to be cut off from the reality of what's on the ground, and thinks he knows better than anyone else.

This type of person will get an idea and force it through, and literally not allow anyone below them to question it.

It's death for a company in the creative industry, because you HAVE To listen to your customers. The key point is being able to pick out the difference between people just saying they don't like it because it's different and being legitimately upset about it. In my experience most MMO makers seem to lose that ability after some years, as they grow used to the idea that people whine about everything, particularly on the forums.

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:09:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Jon Taggart on 10/04/2011 03:09:14
Originally by: Idami Raptor
Edited by: Idami Raptor on 10/04/2011 02:56:31
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: krickettt
Supported. Tired of broken features. CCP needs a new QA team as well.

Speaking of which, I heard whispers of unconfirmed rumours that CCP actually lost a noticeable portion of their former testers not so long ago (fuzzy on the details as to why though), so basically, they're running with an understaffed and overworked QA team.
Would love to get an official denial of that, but appearances do lend a lot of credence to those rumours.
It would certainly explain a few things.


http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=239
*whistle innocently*

That job opening was posted on Feb 14th of this year. Thought I'd clarify. Not sure if that changes anything, probably not though.

Proof link.

Edit - How long have the new forums been in the making?

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:11:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Idami Raptor

I think so too, a lot of it smacks of them having a bona-fide american style corporate exec in there somewhere. It affects everything below them, because someone like that punishes anyone that tells them anything but what they want to hear, tends to be cut off from the reality of what's on the ground, and thinks he knows better than anyone else.

This type of person will get an idea and force it through, and literally not allow anyone below them to question it.

It's death for a company in the creative industry, because you HAVE To listen to your customers. The key point is being able to pick out the difference between people just saying they don't like it because it's different and being legitimately upset about it. In my experience most MMO makers seem to lose that ability after some years, as they grow used to the idea that people whine about everything, particularly on the forums.

Reminds me of the dev team during the Age of Shadows expansion for Ultima Online.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:14:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: krickettt
Supported. Tired of broken features. CCP needs a new QA team as well.

Speaking of which, I heard whispers of unconfirmed rumours that CCP actually lost a noticeable portion of their former testers not so long ago (fuzzy on the details as to why though), so basically, they're running with an understaffed and overworked QA team.
Would love to get an official denial of that, but appearances do lend a lot of credence to those rumours.
It would certainly explain a few things.



I've been thinking about this... I'm not going to blame QA anymore.

We've seen that when people do point out problems with features that they are ignored and pushed through anyway (and you might get a ban on top of it).

This is a management problem. A lack of resolve to quality.
tbh that's what I'm starting to think more and more.

it's not that QA fails to do their job, it's like that there isn't QA at all.

most middle-rank devs are probably good chaps that try to do their jobs as good as they can I'm sure, but stuff gets kinda hard when the department that is used to make the customers not RAEG! can't even do basic testing.
This whole new forum incident, could've been avoided not only by some basic QA testing, but also by some proactive testing provided by the Security department aswell.

Idami Raptor
Gallente
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:17:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Jon Taggart
Edited by: Jon Taggart on 10/04/2011 03:09:14
Originally by: Idami Raptor
Edited by: Idami Raptor on 10/04/2011 02:56:31
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: krickettt
Supported. Tired of broken features. CCP needs a new QA team as well.

Speaking of which, I heard whispers of unconfirmed rumours that CCP actually lost a noticeable portion of their former testers not so long ago (fuzzy on the details as to why though), so basically, they're running with an understaffed and overworked QA team.
Would love to get an official denial of that, but appearances do lend a lot of credence to those rumours.
It would certainly explain a few things.


http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=239
*whistle innocently*

That job opening was posted on Feb 14th of this year. Thought I'd clarify. Not sure if that changes anything, probably not though.

Proof link.

Edit - How long have the new forums been in the making?


Given that they're a port of an existing, open source forum software and from looking at them... I'd guess about a week.

That link though illustrates something rather important: they are in fact hiring in QA, and the way they're going about doing it says a lot about how the people running the QA Department think.

For starters, they call it an 'Internship', and have it set for a short, fixed period of time with an option to double it. It's paid, though they don't say how much (that and the job title implying it's not very much). Additionally, no mention is made of the possibility of moving into a permanent position. No mention is made of benefits either.

This means one of two things: Either at least part of their QA department is made up of glorified temps, or they're doing a try it before you buy it sort of thing. Get someone in there and see how they do without a long-term commitment. Regardless of the intent, the reality is probably somewhere in the middle. They hire people but let most of them go, only hiring the ones they really like on permanently. They may in fact deliberately let some of them go afterwards because by continually hiring new temps they can pay them all peanuts, and get the work done without all the costs and strings of a real employee.

And frankly, there isn't a company in the WORLD that hires at ALL unless they're short staffed.

An exec having a large portion of QA liquidated to take the fall for his bad management would be a typical business practice too.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:19:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Mara Rinn on 10/04/2011 03:28:54
CCP really need to break the management fail cascade.

It is more important to keep your customers paying their subscriptions than to get new customers. Stop masturbating to the "total subscriptions" graph, start paying attention to the "cancellations" graph.

Originally by: Idami Raptor
This means one of two things: Either at least part of their QA department is made up of glorified temps, or they're doing a try it before you buy it sort of thing. Get someone in there and see how they do without a long-term commitment. ... They hire people but let most of them go, only hiring the ones they really like on permanently. ...

An exec having a large portion of QA liquidated to take the fall for his bad management would be a typical business practice too.


I have seen this behavior first-hand, from a company which was run by an American used to the over-promise under-deliver, sell-at-all-costs school of management. All the people who told him the product was not fit for sale were fired (that's me and two others). After release, when it turned out the product was not fit for sale, the company folded, and the idiot in charge still blames me and two others.

So temp-hiring QA folks is an indication that they're looking for yes-men, not testers. I took my resumé to Fanfest with the intention of going home with a new job, did not apply for any jobs.

CCP, this time it is the entire player base calling you on you bulldust.

Idami Raptor
Gallente
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:26:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
CCP really need to break the management fail cascade.

It is more important to keep your customers paying their subscriptions than to get new customers. Stop masturbating to the "total subscriptions" graph, start paying attention to the "cancellations" graph.



If we're honest, they're both important. People are always going to leave, for one reason or another, and you have to be bringing in new people to replace them.

The key point being to build on your existing base. To my knowledge every game that's ever decided that it was more important to attract a new base than to keep their existing one has ended up going nowhere. It's very, very difficult to turn a game into a hit after launch if it isn't almost all the way there to begin with.

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:28:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Jon Taggart on 10/04/2011 03:28:50
Originally by: Idami Raptor
Originally by: Mara Rinn
CCP really need to break the management fail cascade.

It is more important to keep your customers paying their subscriptions than to get new customers. Stop masturbating to the "total subscriptions" graph, start paying attention to the "cancellations" graph.



If we're honest, they're both important. People are always going to leave, for one reason or another, and you have to be bringing in new people to replace them.

The key point being to build on your existing base. To my knowledge every game that's ever decided that it was more important to attract a new base than to keep their existing one has ended up going nowhere. It's very, very difficult to turn a game into a hit after launch if it isn't almost all the way there to begin with.

Quite true. There is a statistic, but the life of me I can't locate it, that a newspaper has a better and easier chance of acquiring previous customers as opposed to brand new ones. So they devote much of their advertising in that direction. Separate fields entirely, but I think the example works just as well.

It frustrates me that I can't find that stat!

Idami Raptor
Gallente
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:34:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Jon Taggart
Edited by: Jon Taggart on 10/04/2011 03:28:50
Originally by: Idami Raptor
Originally by: Mara Rinn
CCP really need to break the management fail cascade.

It is more important to keep your customers paying their subscriptions than to get new customers. Stop masturbating to the "total subscriptions" graph, start paying attention to the "cancellations" graph.



If we're honest, they're both important. People are always going to leave, for one reason or another, and you have to be bringing in new people to replace them.

The key point being to build on your existing base. To my knowledge every game that's ever decided that it was more important to attract a new base than to keep their existing one has ended up going nowhere. It's very, very difficult to turn a game into a hit after launch if it isn't almost all the way there to begin with.

Quite true. There is a statistic, but the life of me I can't locate it, that a newspaper has a better and easier chance of acquiring previous customers as opposed to brand new ones. So they devote much of their advertising in that direction. Separate fields entirely, but I think the example works just as well.

It frustrates me that I can't find that stat!


My father used to be customer service manager at a major US Newspaper, and he once told me about something he'd seen that indicated that people who had a problem and then had a good experience with customer service were more loyal than if they'd never had a problem at all.

He also mentioned that the booth sales department I worked for at one time had been shut down because they mostly just sold people subscriptions with a super good deal, and then they'd cancel once the deal ran out. Some of them would do this over and over again, cancelling their subscription every time the deal ran out and then signing up again at another of our booths that they found.

They came to the conclusion that those deals were thusly a lot of junk and stopped offering them, and then all of a sudden the booth sales department was doing jack all so they got rid of them.

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:55:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Jon Taggart on 10/04/2011 14:41:34
Edited by: Jon Taggart on 10/04/2011 03:55:35
Thanks for the discussion. I quite enjoyed it.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2011.04.10 04:20:00 - [41]
 

haven't we been trying to tell them this for a while now?

Raydn James
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.04.10 04:22:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Raydn James on 10/04/2011 04:23:34
5 years in and 2 accounts.

I'm not a big fish by any means, but I'm pretty much done with this game. Which is a shame because it's the best game I've ever played.

Calathea Sata
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.10 04:24:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
haven't we been trying to tell them this for a while now?
Indeed we are

Idami Raptor
Gallente
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
Posted - 2011.04.10 04:28:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Idami Raptor on 10/04/2011 04:34:44
Something that just occured to me... earlier someone, I think Akita, said something to the effect that it was about two or three years ago when the signs of the management problems started to appear.

Now read this...surprisingly google did a pretty good job with this one.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vb.is%2Ffrett%2F9841%2F

in 2008, CCP sold a whole bunch of new shares to raise money to help fund Dust, and the major listed owners include a US based investment company and a UK based investment company run by Iceland's lone billionare whose true owners hide behind shell companies...

Given the timing one has to wonder if the root of the problem isn't the company's management but its OWNERSHIP!

Lucia Sarain
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:37:00 - [45]
 

Not supported, i want them to Deliver not listen to burned out old ****ers who can't let go of the game and who think just because it's no longer fun for them it's over for everybody.

What I wish CCP would do is every time someone makes a public "i quit" post on the fourm, their characters are biomassed by a GM when the subscription runs out. But that's just a dream of mine.

Idami Raptor
Gallente
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:56:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Lucia Sarain
Not supported, i want them to Deliver not listen to burned out old ****ers who can't let go of the game and who think just because it's no longer fun for them it's over for everybody.

What I wish CCP would do is every time someone makes a public "i quit" post on the fourm, their characters are biomassed by a GM when the subscription runs out. But that's just a dream of mine.



So...you say you want CCP to deliver, yet you troll a thread asking them to deliver instead of just saying they do?

Erid Tangor
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:59:00 - [47]
 

Supported. For reals.

Elaine McMenace
Posted - 2011.04.10 06:00:00 - [48]
 

My thoughts exactly.

Ruziel
Minmatar
Twilight Military Industrial Complex
Posted - 2011.04.10 06:08:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Learn from your mistakes, CCP.
It's not too late to alter this self-destructive new policy.
STOP RUSHING OUT UNPOLISHED JUNK AND FOCUS ON FIXING WHAT'S BROKEN BEFORE PROCEEDING.


So much this. The batch of "little" fixes was one of the best things introduced in a patch for quite some time. Now if you would only give the S&I interface some polish for Matar's sake.

Kenpachi Viktor
Gradient
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.04.10 06:22:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: krickettt
Supported. Tired of broken features. CCP needs a new QA team as well.

Speaking of which, I heard whispers of unconfirmed rumours that CCP actually lost a noticeable portion of their former testers not so long ago (fuzzy on the details as to why though), so basically, they're running with an understaffed and overworked QA team.
Would love to get an official denial of that, but appearances do lend a lot of credence to those rumours.
It would certainly explain a few things.



I've been thinking about this... I'm not going to blame QA anymore.

We've seen that when people do point out problems with features that they are ignored and pushed through anyway (and you might get a ban on top of it).

This is a management problem. A lack of resolve to quality.

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.04.10 06:25:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
So temp-hiring QA folks is an indication that they're looking for yes-men, not testers. I took my resumé to Fanfest with the intention of going home with a new job, did not apply for any jobs.

So did I, but all they told me was, apply for the position posted at the site... They weren't making an effort to get people really. Even if they did, I wouldn't have signed, because working as an overqualified, underpaid intern with no securities in a frozen ****hole is not my thing. It's bad enough they tricked me into coming to fanfest Laughing

Saying yes to the N-th wakeup call thread.

Guilliman R
Gallente
Northstar Cabal
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:39:00 - [52]
 



Hell yes. CCP is starting to look like EA before their image review. Raping everything they get their hands on for quick return.

I've got myself a deadline; I'll wait till summer (august) and if by then the most glaring issues aren't solved (hybrids, gallente, OP 1400's (seriously, arty abbadons!???), Stupid OP Supers that make all caps obsolete. Industry changes (UI..)) I'll just find a new game to play, or focus more on studying physics. I can only wait so long.

I really hate EA for ruining so many cool universes, now ccp is doing the same thing. It's the exact same path they're taking.


Zaqar
Pator Tech School

Posted - 2011.04.10 07:40:00 - [53]
 


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:42:00 - [54]
 

no

Gistatis Tribunus

Posted - 2011.04.10 07:46:00 - [55]
 


Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting

Posted - 2011.04.10 08:04:00 - [56]
 

Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 10/04/2011 08:11:08
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 10/04/2011 08:06:20
Originally by: Akita T

Speaking of which, I heard whispers of unconfirmed rumours that CCP actually lost a noticeable portion of their former testers not so long ago (fuzzy on the details as to why though), so basically, they're running with an understaffed and overworked QA team.
Would love to get an official denial of that, but appearances do lend a lot of credence to those rumours.
It would certainly explain a few things.



If you head over the ex CCP employees blog, you'll see ALL of them agreeing that CCP internal communication is their Achille's heel, that teams act like they live in a "void" with little interaction between them and several other curiosities.

I was considering asking for a job @CCP as Economist helper or even as coder but the wages seem horripilant and their pension system is not integrated or compatible with anything yet it requires an amount of (10 iirc) years just to make you eligible to get it.




Originally by: Akita T

Subscriber count graphs available in the QENs.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf
On page 8 of 52.
And my mistake, when I said "didn't get steeper", what I meant to say was "it got less steep".
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7402/evesubscribers.jpg
Including rough linear approximation from the moment it became "somewhat popular".




Here's my MS Paint approximation about the next months in EvE's subscriptions market, even if CCP changed their ways and approach to quality (players discontent inertia):


Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


As you can see the trend is exhausting (increasing volatility on the upper graph).
The yellow lines show the slope changes in the "123 zig zag", the cyan are some areas of support or resistance.
and getting more "whipsawing" which is another sign of trend exhaustion.

This trend will peak either at the current high or a next lower high (not drawn) then there will be a sharp drop down to the lower support.
It will break because we will be in summer (low subs period of the year) and an even sharper drop will happen.

After a rebounce (typical bottom W formation), IF CCP changed their ways, they will slowly begin rising up (red line).
If they stay as is, we'll see a further drop (blue line) to dynamic support and then who knows.

Axon Atom
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:17:00 - [57]
 

riiiiight

DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings

Posted - 2011.04.10 08:28:00 - [58]
 

Supported!

Calistai Huranu
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:01:00 - [59]
 

Supported.



Ifly Uwalk
Caldari
Concentrated Evil
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:05:00 - [60]
 

+1


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