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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services

Posted - 2011.04.12 00:48:00 - [271]
 

This game is a joke.

CCP realised it about 2 years ago.

zebrenoph
Posted - 2011.04.12 01:08:00 - [272]
 

supported

Trader20
Posted - 2011.04.12 01:09:00 - [273]
 

Edited by: Trader20 on 12/04/2011 01:08:57
Originally by: Akita T

WHAT A COINCIDENCE ! That was EXACTLY the same thing I said !
The only difference is that you seem to think that lately CCP has actually been pushing out the same level of quality they used to.
I got news for you, they aren't doing that anymore



Eve online has evolved big time from when it first started and has become more complex.
Eve online has had major improvements with stability (except forums :) ) , graphics, ui, gameplay.
Eve online supports a much larger community then before and has done a pretty decent job of keeping the servers running good.

So intergrating new features/tech/content to this highly evolved, stable, populated, game isn't going to be easy and you cant and wont plz everyone. So you as the player should have the knowledge not to expect perfection and should be reasonable when u criticize.

CCP is smart so they probably will follow the markert research over amateur form rants, because I would do the same thing. Lol and word of mouth...thats a great *theory* but advertising is a proven way to sell a product.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.12 01:28:00 - [274]
 

Originally by: Trader20
Lol and word of mouth...thats a great *theory* but advertising is a proven way to sell a product.


so is word of mouth.


and just because EVE has grown, doesn't mean it should start becoming a heap of half-baked bugged features.

I mean, yes, it evolved quite alot since the day I set my foot out of Cistuvaert the first time back in 2003, but in these latter years, the quality of releases have decreased to a level where it's starting to become unsustainable.

Reachok
Amarr
Wrecking Shots
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.04.12 01:29:00 - [275]
 

Originally by: Trader20
Edited by: Trader20 on 12/04/2011 01:08:57
Originally by: Akita T

WHAT A COINCIDENCE ! That was EXACTLY the same thing I said !
The only difference is that you seem to think that lately CCP has actually been pushing out the same level of quality they used to.
I got news for you, they aren't doing that anymore



Eve online has evolved big time from when it first started and has become more complex.
Eve online has had major improvements with stability (except forums :) ) , graphics, ui, gameplay.
Eve online supports a much larger community then before and has done a pretty decent job of keeping the servers running good.

So intergrating new features/tech/content to this highly evolved, stable, populated, game isn't going to be easy and you cant and wont plz everyone. So you as the player should have the knowledge not to expect perfection and should be reasonable when u criticize.

CCP is smart so they probably will follow the markert research over amateur form rants, because I would do the same thing. Lol and word of mouth...thats a great *theory* but advertising is a proven way to sell a product.


Dude, I've been playing for a while and hit the wall last year. WIS/Incarna has been the carrot keeping me going. My mule is tired and sees the stable up ahead. I fully agree with Akita. Even if it means another year or more, even if I'm long gone, the game needs the stuff already introduced fixed. Then start adding new content.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.12 01:32:00 - [276]
 

Originally by: Reachok
Originally by: Trader20
Edited by: Trader20 on 12/04/2011 01:08:57
Originally by: Akita T

WHAT A COINCIDENCE ! That was EXACTLY the same thing I said !
The only difference is that you seem to think that lately CCP has actually been pushing out the same level of quality they used to.
I got news for you, they aren't doing that anymore



Eve online has evolved big time from when it first started and has become more complex.
Eve online has had major improvements with stability (except forums :) ) , graphics, ui, gameplay.
Eve online supports a much larger community then before and has done a pretty decent job of keeping the servers running good.

So intergrating new features/tech/content to this highly evolved, stable, populated, game isn't going to be easy and you cant and wont plz everyone. So you as the player should have the knowledge not to expect perfection and should be reasonable when u criticize.

CCP is smart so they probably will follow the markert research over amateur form rants, because I would do the same thing. Lol and word of mouth...thats a great *theory* but advertising is a proven way to sell a product.


Dude, I've been playing for a while and hit the wall last year. WIS/Incarna has been the carrot keeping me going. My mule is tired and sees the stable up ahead. I fully agree with Akita. Even if it means another year or more, even if I'm long gone, the game needs the stuff already introduced fixed. Then start adding new content.
perfect example on how do things right is what team BFF is doing with their low-hanging fruit approach.

so many tiny feature updates and additions, yet so well received on the community.

Trader20
Posted - 2011.04.12 01:36:00 - [277]
 

Edited by: Trader20 on 12/04/2011 01:42:47
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Trader20
Lol and word of mouth...thats a great *theory* but advertising is a proven way to sell a product.


so is word of mouth.


and just because EVE has grown, doesn't mean it should start becoming a heap of half-baked bugged features.

I mean, yes, it evolved quite alot since the day I set my foot out of Cistuvaert the first time back in 2003, but in these latter years, the quality of releases have decreased to a level where it's starting to become unsustainable.


Population increase ---> Critism increase. Probably the same haters/players ratio as it was when Eve started out, so proportionality the majority of players think Eve and CCP are doing great.

And Grim I had to look up BFF and all is I can say is, "We need this in Eve Online." BFF Game

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.12 01:56:00 - [278]
 

Originally by: Trader20
So intergrating new features/tech/content to this highly evolved, stable, populated, game isn't going to be easy and you cant and wont plz everyone. So you as the player should have the knowledge not to expect perfection and should be reasonable when u criticize.

Who's asking for perfection ?
We're merely asking for stuff to be delivered AFTER proper testing AND only when it's slightly more feature-complete than a mere skeleton.
Heck, they could even release it as a skeleton IF ONLY they would quickly add some meat to the bones afterwards, but they don't even usually do that anymore.

Quote:
CCP is smart so they probably will follow the markert research over amateur form rants, because I would do the same thing. Lol and word of mouth...thats a great *theory* but advertising is a proven way to sell a product.

/facepalm
You haven't really been paying attention to any of the arguments about the posted graph, have you ?
Well, we'll see how CCP reacts when the subscriber numbers fall further and further away downwards from the almost constant growth line seen so far in the past 6 years or so of EVE history (except very recently).

rootimus maximus
Caldari
Posted - 2011.04.12 02:00:00 - [279]
 


Trader20
Posted - 2011.04.12 02:04:00 - [280]
 

Edited by: Trader20 on 12/04/2011 02:07:47
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Trader20
So intergrating new features/tech/content to this highly evolved, stable, populated, game isn't going to be easy and you cant and wont plz everyone. So you as the player should have the knowledge not to expect perfection and should be reasonable when u criticize.

Who's asking for perfection ?
We're merely asking for stuff to be delivered AFTER proper testing AND only when it's slightly more feature-complete than a mere skeleton.
Heck, they could even release it as a skeleton IF ONLY they would quickly add some meat to the bones afterwards, but they don't even usually do that anymore.

Quote:
CCP is smart so they probably will follow the markert research over amateur form rants, because I would do the same thing. Lol and word of mouth...thats a great *theory* but advertising is a proven way to sell a product.

/facepalm
You haven't really been paying attention to any of the arguments about the posted graph, have you ?
Well, we'll see how CCP reacts when the subscriber numbers fall further and further away downwards from the almost constant growth line seen so far in the past 6 years or so of EVE history (except very recently).



Well CCP is doing something right because they've had a steady increase in pop (few dips here and there) and they manage to do this without your input or knowledege. So if I need advice on how to make or play a game, I'll defenite take CCP's advice over yours. Srry Laughing

If you don't like the game then leave, noone's forcing you to stay. For such a stubborn critic you do seem to stick around alot. Why does it always seem the haters have the most passion about there "causes" while the other players are just enjoying the game. Rolling Eyes

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.12 02:10:00 - [281]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 12/04/2011 02:11:50
Originally by: Trader20
Well CCP is doing something right because they've had a steady increase in pop (few dips here and there) and they manage to do this without your input or knowledge. So if I need advice on how to make or play a game, I'll definitely take CCP's advice over yours. Sorry Laughing

CCP _was_ doing a lot of things just right. Past tense.
Now, CCP is only doing SOME things right - they're doing the exact opposite of what they used to from a "development focus" standpoint.
Because of that shifted focus, combined with underestimates of development time and pressure to release new stuff at the estimated deadline (as opposed to when it's ready to release), quality has suffered, and most of us have noticed it.
And the "dips here and there" are getting more pronounced and more frequent as of late - you DO know how to read a graph, don't you ?

Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
Posted - 2011.04.12 03:59:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: Trader20
Well CCP is doing something right because they've had a steady increase in pop


Actually this is mainly due to them recognising the math of how their business works.
When they saw that their average retention was 7 months they started aiming at those 7 months.

* Average retention 7 months.
* New subscribers are best found with big flashy expansions of hyperbol that never delivers.
* New subscribers demand shallow new features to retain slightly longer.
* Subscriber count can be grown simply by decreasing churn for 7-9 month subscribers.
* Churn can be combated with higher signup rates and more advertising.

Fixing stuff that people only notice is broken after 7 months is "pointless" from their broken perspective.

Someone forgot to tell them how powerful word of mouth is, spreadsheets tell you what you want to hear.

Astroka
Posted - 2011.04.12 05:57:00 - [283]
 

Supporting not telling me you're going to make me a lovely 3-course meal of epic proportions and handing me a corn dog.

Katrina Bekers
Gallente
Fighters Squadron

Posted - 2011.04.12 06:45:00 - [284]
 

Akita T, being one of the best market analysts ingame, just hit the nail straight on the head.

Not hearing her call means wanting to hurt one's own stream revenue.

101% support.

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors
Posted - 2011.04.12 07:11:00 - [285]
 

Edited by: LordElfa on 12/04/2011 07:12:22
Edited by: LordElfa on 12/04/2011 07:11:53
It's not as if I have an issue with CCP fixing bugs and imbalances Akita, I can appreciate making something work better as much as the next person.

My issue is with how you're going about it. First, you're a jerk. I don't care how long you've been in EVE, there's no reason to be a jerk since it won't get you what you want faster.

How are you a jerk you ask? See this thread for more details. Look at how you respond and approach CCP staff with your problems. You're a smart ass and a smug jerk about it. How can we trust you to champion a cause to CCP for us when you can't even act like an adult to CCP.

You started this thread by saying : We're patient. We can wait.

Well then, hurry up and wait and as far as quality goes, buy yourself a bottle of Chteau Margaux 1995 and drink yourself into a coma, then you won't care about anything anymore, just like you think CCP doesn't.

Khalis Sanguar
Posted - 2011.04.12 07:24:00 - [286]
 

Akita said it perfectly (no surprise there Smile). I wouldn't say CCP is in a downward spiral yet, but they are getting very, very close and need to clean up their act asap.

Gibbo5771
Posted - 2011.04.12 08:47:00 - [287]
 

Edited by: Gibbo5771 on 12/04/2011 08:48:15
All the little things that make the game fun are the ones that got me hooked years ago, now broken and deserted to sit in the pile of "to do"'s

ceaon
Posted - 2011.04.12 11:11:00 - [288]
 


Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.04.12 12:47:00 - [289]
 

i support this

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.12 13:48:00 - [290]
 

Originally by: LordElfa
My issue is with how you're going about it. First, you're a jerk. I don't care how long you've been in EVE, there's no reason to be a jerk since it won't get you what you want faster.
How are you a jerk you ask? See this thread for more details. Look at how you respond and approach CCP staff with your problems. You're a smart ass and a smug jerk about it. How can we trust you to champion a cause to CCP for us when you can't even act like an adult to CCP.
You started this thread by saying : We're patient. We can wait.
Well then, hurry up and wait and as far as quality goes, buy yourself a bottle of Chteau Margaux 1995 and drink yourself into a coma, then you won't care about anything anymore, just like you think CCP doesn't.

I have to be a jerk about it, because otherwise all of this will be swept quickly under a rug.
It will eventually be swept under a rug anyway.

Sure, yes, we can wait... as long as we are reasonably sure that EVENTUALLY, the things will be patched up and polished properly.
Right now, we have no reason to believe that would ever be the case, so JUST waiting is POINTLESS.

So, yes, I will be a jerk as long as I _HAVE_ to be, for as long as possible.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor

Posted - 2011.04.12 14:36:00 - [291]
 

Utterly supported.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2011.04.12 14:50:00 - [292]
 

Yes, we wants!

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.04.12 15:13:00 - [293]
 

This is a bad trend line. Agree with Akita, the game needs iteration and polish more than new features.

Decon Ko
Posted - 2011.04.12 15:39:00 - [294]
 

+1

LordElfa
Gallente
Golden Lyon Warriors

Posted - 2011.04.12 16:13:00 - [295]
 

Edited by: LordElfa on 12/04/2011 16:14:44
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: LordElfa
My issue is with how you're going about it. First, you're a jerk. I don't care how long you've been in EVE, there's no reason to be a jerk since it won't get you what you want faster.
How are you a jerk you ask? See this thread for more details. Look at how you respond and approach CCP staff with your problems. You're a smart ass and a smug jerk about it. How can we trust you to champion a cause to CCP for us when you can't even act like an adult to CCP.
You started this thread by saying : We're patient. We can wait.
Well then, hurry up and wait and as far as quality goes, buy yourself a bottle of Chteau Margaux 1995 and drink yourself into a coma, then you won't care about anything anymore, just like you think CCP doesn't.

I have to be a jerk about it, because otherwise all of this will be swept quickly under a rug.
It will eventually be swept under a rug anyway.

Sure, yes, we can wait... as long as we are reasonably sure that EVENTUALLY, the things will be patched up and polished properly.
Right now, we have no reason to believe that would ever be the case, so JUST waiting is POINTLESS.

So, yes, I will be a jerk as long as I _HAVE_ to be, for as long as possible.


As you wish. I do hope you succeed, just remember that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar. Also remember that it isn't usually random CCP members who are responsible for the direction of the game so acting harshly towards them isn't always the correct course of action. So be a jerk to the right people, namely the ones making the decisions and not the guys just working 9-5 like we all do, they have little to no control over what happens.

So to recap, Be mad, you have a right to be in this case, but take it out on the right people at CCP.

Good luck Akita, your success is our success.

/Supported

ed jeni
SKULLDOGS
RED.OverLord
Posted - 2011.04.12 16:17:00 - [296]
 

Supported, not that it makes a difference as CCP stopped listening to its players a long time ago.
eg. sanctum nerf which was a screw you approach to s system we worked hard to develop as a corp, already our corp members are leaving on the hi-sec train, would the last corp in 0.0 please turn out the lights.

i cant remember the playerbase asking CCP to nerf 0.0 but they did it anyway, i did however see the player base asking over and over to fix a hundred problems that are a real concern, and guess what ??

i have been getting my MMO kicks here in eve since beta, i have brought dozens of new players to eve just by word of mouth and i am sure they in turn have brought new blood into the game, it has been a sad thing though that for the last cpl of years i would advise anyone new to stay well away and after summer this year i too will be hanging up my eve hat as i have finally had enough of the "NEW" |CCP

Abramul
Gallente
StarFleet Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2011.04.12 16:27:00 - [297]
 

Supported. With the way Eve is set up (free download and trial), word of mouth, in-game and out-of-game, is going to be one of the biggest factors determining if new players decide to stay around. And making sure ALL features are up to par, instead of just adding new features and moving on to the next expansion, is the way to get older players to tell newer players that Eve is worth staying around for.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.12 17:21:00 - [298]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 12/04/2011 17:22:14
Originally by: LordElfa
I do hope you succeed, just remember that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Actually, that was repeatedly proven wrong. Twisted Evil
You actually DO catch more flies with vinegar. Laughing
Try it yourself some time... ugh

Quote:
Also remember that it isn't usually random CCP members who are responsible for the direction of the game so acting harshly towards them isn't always the correct course of action.
So be a jerk to the right people, namely the ones making the decisions and not the guys just working 9-5 like we all do, they have little to no control over what happens.
So to recap, Be mad, you have a right to be in this case, but take it out on the right people at CCP.
Good luck Akita, your success is our success.

That was my point all along too, if I failed to make it clear enough from the start, I'd have to apologize and see what I can do to make it clearer earlier.
I still love the game, I still love most of the devs I know anything about at CCP, the problem I have is with "upper management", or more precisely, with their development focus / schedule, and the "results" it encourages.

Ranud Sunraker
Minmatar
Brothers of Destiny
Phobia.
Posted - 2011.04.12 17:28:00 - [299]
 

I generally agree with the OP. The trend to put out new shiny content in favor of "that old stuff" is worrying.

But i'm glad that this seems to have been heard at CCP to a certain degree.
Keep on polishing the old stuff, slow down on the new and shiny.
Old and shiny can be quite cool, too.

I think the Thousand Papercuts are a good start, so is the overhaul of the UI.
I sincerely hope POSes, Corp Management and COSMOS Sites are on the list, too.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.12 17:42:00 - [300]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 12/04/2011 17:46:37
Quote:
CSM MINUTES, 23-25 JUNE 2010

14:30-15:30 CCP: Commitment to Excellence
CCP Attendees: Nathan – CCP Oveur, Erlendur – CCP Explorer

The CSM gave a presentation on player expectations regarding excellence and expressed concern at the direction in which CCP is going with EVE.

There is full consensus within the CSM that this issue is a problem.
Some examples of game areas which the CSM feels do not meet the expected standard of excellence: factional warfare, treaties, lag, Tyrannis introduction (PI), unfinished content (COSMOS, bounty hunting system).
Examples which the CSM feels demonstrate that CCP IS capable of excellence: Apocrypha (wormholes, T3, less lag), Dominion (supercaps rebalance), Quantum Rise.

The CSM stated that there is a widespread belief that CCP is emphasizing quantity at the cost of quality, which goes against CCP’s “Excellence” initiative.

The CSM proposed that CCP focus more on existing content, polishing it post-release until it is excellent.
Speaking on behalf of CCP, Nathan disagreed strongly with the claim that CCP isn’t committed to excellence. He pointed out that CCP probably spends a bigger part of its income on development than most other large, established game companies. He stated that this is a clear sign of this commitment.

The CSM suggested that a perception of excellence is in large part based on player perception and that they felt that players generally do not perceive EVE as being an excellent product nor headed in an excellent direction.

The greatly increased null-sec lag was cited as major example, as it has resulted in a situation where fleets of a few dozen players often experience major problems loading up empty systems. Nathan pointed out that CCP is heavily focused on reducing lag and that resources are currently being applied to the problem.
Discussion then focused on an apparent drive by CCP to add new features instead of improving existing ones. CCP stated that once Incarna and Planetary Interaction/Dust 514 are fully implemented, focus will probably shift far more towards improvement of existing features.

It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features.

This led to a discussion on the balance of customer acquisition through new features versus customer retention through quality and polish. The CSM also stressed the importance of goodwill and overall player satisfaction, which is very hard to measure in statistics until players decide to quit.
The CSM is concerned that players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations.
The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved.

CSM remained unconvinced of CCPs commitment to excellence, even after Nathan's arguments were heard.



As you can see, the "official" CCP position is that they ARE "committed to excellence".
Who in here still believes that after the latest fiasco ?
The general perception already was that CCP cares more for quantity than quality as of late, and this is now more than ever obvious.


"Expectation management can be improved"...

HA !


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