open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [Proposal] Alter bad new company direction, STOP rushing stuff out
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (15)

Author Topic

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.10 01:50:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 12/04/2011 17:47:03


Am I somewhat of a jerk for putting this below here ?
To some degree, yes. But I feel it is necessary.
Disclaimer : I still love the GAME, and I still love most of the individual devs at CCP.
My problem is with the company policy, dictated by a few people that might not even have ANYTHING to do with game design at all.

_

We're patient. We can wait. We want quality.

We don't care about your so-called market research that tells you rushed and unpolished new features would sell better than older, sturdy, polished content.
That might be the case for WoW clones, BUT NOT FOR EVE.
You had some major dips in subscription counts after each new expansion lately, and those were the expansions with heavy-duty advertising and plenty of "new features" (which didn't quite work right, and most of them still don't).
Overall, on average, the subscriber count slope didn't get steeper.
In fact, one could argue you have been losing momentum.

Save your money that you spend on advertising, word of mouth got you your userbase, word of mouth WILL KEEP getting you a larger userbase.
Customers you get from "shiny new stuff" (that doesn't actually work properly anyway) won't stay long enough, and by the time you pumped everything full of barely functional junk, you will have alienated a big portion of the user base.

Didn't the last fanfest reactions tell you WHAT the userbase wants ?
Didn't you hear the cheers after the announcement of MINOR polish stuff ?


Learn from your mistakes, CCP.
It's not too late to alter this self-destructive new policy.
STOP RUSHING OUT UNPOLISHED JUNK AND FOCUS ON FIXING WHAT'S BROKEN BEFORE PROCEEDING.

_

This goes BEYOND the "commitment to excellence", it's actually a plea to whoever inside CCP has eyes to see and ears to listen.
You need to try and convince your boss to convince your boss and so on and so forth.
As long as the mindset amongst CCP's leadership is that "shiny junk sells, old polish doesn't", the EVE vision of future will end up a resounding flop.

Take a look at sales charts, spank some accountants, DO SOMETHING, just stop this madness.

__


TO SUPPORT THIS THREAD'S IDEA, CLICK THE "Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on" CHECKBOX UNDER YOUR POST TEXT INPUT BOX.
It's right below "Check here to preview your post" and right below the character selection and "Post Reply" button.

If you forgot to do it at first, you can edit your post to select that too.

Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Here's my MS Paint approximation about the next months in EvE's subscriptions market, even if CCP changed their ways and approach to quality (players discontent inertia):

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/2381/futuresubsu.jpg

As you can see the trend is exhausting (increasing volatility on the upper graph).
The yellow lines show the slope changes in the "123 zig zag", the cyan are some areas of support or resistance.
and getting more "whipsawing" which is another sign of trend exhaustion.
This trend will peak either at the current high or a next lower high (not drawn) then there will be a sharp drop down to the lower support.
It will break because we will be in summer (low subs period of the year) and an even sharper drop will happen.
After a rebounce (typical bottom W formation), IF CCP changed their ways, they will slowly begin rising up (red line).
If they stay as is, we'll see a further drop (blue line) to dynamic support and then who knows.


Shocked

P.S. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1493997&page=10#300

Calathea Sata
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.10 01:53:00 - [2]
 

Quoting just because I don't ususally type this much

Originally by: Calathea Sata
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Calathea Sata
Apology accepted. CCP now please prove your sincerity by your actions. Excellence. Deliverance.


I'm waiting to see it on the CCP YouTube channel... in HD.





The corruption that is now present within CCP is not just a temporary illness but a defect that is manifested deep from a more fundamental level of managements/how the company is run/how the top levels decide how the game is going to roll out. We customers are not stupid, in fact, we can be many times cleverer than the staff in CCP (see the recent forum drama) and we all know what we signed up for. There is a limit of our patience. There is a limit of our tolerance. CCP promised 18 months until the phasing out of "EVE beta" (aka the dream game) we said ok, we wait. CCP rolled out empty frameworks of features we said ok because CCP surely is going to polish it. At this point, all is fine, because we still think CCP is actually a competent company that is really going to push out the polished stuff eventually.

However this forum drama have proven, at least to me, that they are just a bunch of conceptual visionaries that have grand ideas but no clear goal and no ability to deliver it. 75,000 man hours producing this kind of forum that has no BASIC security, has bad codings/features not ironed out after two beta tests that are IMMEDIATELY improved by some scripts written by players, has a "like" function that serves absolutely NO function and is proven to be a lagsause/obviously a bad idea to begin with/a lolfeature that has GOT to be removed some day or other. Really? Excellence, deliverance, with the current ways of CCP, they are impossiblilities. This is a very obvious conclusion from this episode of epic forum fail.

Now with CCP proven to be without excellence and deliverance, the 18 months promise immediately doesn't seem so attractive or even FEASABLE anymore. Incarna will be walking in your own room. Dust will come out with only 2 maps initially and 2 guns from 2 of the 4 races, and no orbital strike. 18 months they will start saying there is too much broken features in EVE that they are simply going to reinvent them all making it a totally different game, and will happen only 36 months later.

EVE is dead. Not now, not soon. But unless CCP change their ways of doing things, all the possibilities, all the potentials, the grand visions of an ultimate sci-fi, the epic 1000 ships lag-free battle everyone dreamed about, the exciting individual features that can be fun for all types of players... they do not seem so much of a realistic probability anymore.

Regain our faith CCP. I do not wish to see such a great internet sci-fi simulator in the future getting crushed by incompetance and poor management of its mother company. We all want to see the day coming. But you guys are the ones that need to reconsolidate among yourselves. I hope this message can serve as a gentle slap in the face for CCP, and wake up the dreaming giant within you to build us that untimate galatic kingdom that we see in our dreams.



*the statistics are probably wrong but they are not the mainpoint here.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force

Posted - 2011.04.10 01:54:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 11/04/2011 09:42:07
Originally by: Cassus Temon
Supported by the way, but with the usual reservations.
I like new content, and I'd like to see more.

Like I was saying somewhere else...

It's more of a question of picking between "shiny new junk" vs "polished old awesome".
Basically, between chasing for new subs vs making old subs stick around longer.

We all feel quite clearly about "shiny new awesome" (universally loved) and "polished old junk" (which almost nobody cares about, but also, we're not annoyed by it too much either).

Originally by: Cassus Temon
Is that chart actually accurate? Where does it come from?

Official CCP Quarterly Economic Newsletter, Q4 2010, page 8.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf

Quoting for posterity :
Originally by: Mortania
Originally by: Zofran
A few days ago some guy I know from working with game dev was talking about other Icelandic developers, some of which have financial interests in his company (which is a small, indy place... they are just backing). He's a pretty big CCP fanboy, so I give I'm a go with talking about how the mismanagement is driving them into the ground and... amazingly he actually agreed based on talking to one of the partners; now you're thinking "ok who cares".

Anyway, the person in question is generally referred to with a name starting with an 'H' and not including the "CCP" prefix and has been around forever. This person claimed that CCP was pretty much killing itself by making people like him work on the business aspects while the technical and game dev side was being overrun by business types or "game devs"(the ones that cant code), who have no clue at all and just want to do gimmicky bull**** to please investors. He wanted to realign to the early days where there was a more involved steering from the high-up technical types, but was struggling with the "how".

Just thought I'd put that out there - I'm sure he'd never confirm saying that, but I felt it nice to know that at least one of the oldguard had a clue. Trust me, dont trust me... I don't care.

Get rid of the bodies, stop hiring community tools and "yes-men" who are just going to continue this. Stop listening to all your commercially interested partnerships and start looking to do things fresh, Python was a great idea and made eve possible, all of your other infrastructure choices have been based on partnerships and money, lets stop screwing the consumer who is paying for that experience. Middleware is not the solution either. At the end of the day, we'd rather have a small company doing less grand expansions (who cares about Dust/Incarna when the core game is rotting), we want the quality and gameplay back - you don't need to be the big playa to do that.

At the end of the day, if you make that choice too late, after Dust fails and your investors run... you've lost the game son.


I remember saying something along these lines... in 2007!
http://eve-search.com/thread/510134/page/2#36

Oh yeah, I even got a response and reply in directly with Oveur on the subject:
http://eve-search.com/thread/510134/page/2#52





__

Here's a small gift : LARGE FORUM AVATARS USERSCRIPT, in case you missed the "new" forums.

Twisted Evil
__

-editing in place to keep it saved-

CCP LEADERSHIP MENTALITY NEEDS TO CHANGE FAST !
"New junky features sell, old polished content doesn't" ?
KILL IT WITH FIRE.

If you don't speak up...
...well, it'll probably still be somewhat fine for a couple of years.
Crying or Very sad

Then it will just fizzle out.
Almost certainly.
In my opinion.
Which some of you may not really care about.
Neutral

Siiee
Recycled Heroes
Posted - 2011.04.10 01:56:00 - [4]
 

But, but, but.... Deliver?

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:00:00 - [5]
 

Yes, please.

Calathea Sata
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:02:00 - [6]
 


Casanunda
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:03:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Casanunda on 10/04/2011 02:14:42
supported, ty for the pointer on the thumbs up, only taken me 2 years to see it Embarassed

Niraia
Seekers of a Silent Paradise

Posted - 2011.04.10 02:04:00 - [8]
 

I support this Akita and or Calathea.

Froosh
Incidental Damage
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:06:00 - [9]
 


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:07:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 12/04/2011 02:12:51
Originally by: Casanunda
If I actually knew how to get the thumbs up malarky you'd get it.
pray tell and I will support

TO SUPPORT THIS THREAD'S IDEA, CLICK THE "Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on" CHECKBOX UNDER YOUR POST TEXT INPUT BOX.
It's right below "Check here to preview your post" and right below the character selection and "Post Reply" button.

You can edit your post to select that too.


Originally by: Trader20
Well CCP is doing something right because they've had a steady increase in pop (few dips here and there) and they manage to do this without your input or knowledge. So if I need advice on how to make or play a game, I'll definitely take CCP's advice over yours. Sorry Laughing

CCP _was_ doing a lot of things just right. Past tense.
Now, CCP is only doing SOME things right - they're doing the exact opposite of what they used to from a "development focus" standpoint.
Because of that shifted focus, combined with underestimates of development time and pressure to release new stuff at the estimated deadline (as opposed to when it's ready to release), quality has suffered, and most of us have noticed it.
And the "dips here and there" are getting more pronounced and more frequent as of late - you DO know how to read a graph, don't you ?

Idami Raptor
Gallente
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:09:00 - [11]
 

This is the sort of thing that's tarnished EA's reputation for non-sports games and has greatly annoyed Star Wars fans in general(Lucasarts has taken to doing this too).

It's a natural businessman's reaction: They want to start getting a return on the money they've invested RIGHT NOW, and are extremely averse to continuing to spend money on a project in development.

This mentality has NO PLACE in the world of gaming, however. You'll note that part of the reason Blizzard got their initial good reputation was their staunch refusal to do just this. In fact, they won't even put out a release date for one of their games until the CDs are actually being pressed and they're sure that's when it'll be released. This annoys retailers (who generally just make up a date on their own), but avoids the perception of schedule slipping.

I've gotten the impression they're sliding into it a bit since the merger with activision, but there can be little doubt that their dedication to releasing only finished, working products and not allowing that to be compromised by anything, including pressure to meet a schedule, is one of the reasons they've had so many smash hits over the years.

Electronic Arts, on the other hand, who is known for pushing things out unfinished, is also known for abandoning support of games while they still have bugs and also for buying up developers and then eradicating them. Westwood Studios, creator of Command and Conquer is one example. Right now they look to be starting in on this with Bioware (Dragon Age 2, for example).

Lucasarts did this to KotOR 2, apparently even to the point that when the developed asked to be able to add some of the cut content in with a patch later, Lucasarts wouldn't let them. They also did it REPEATEDLY to Star Wars Galaxies, and to a considerable extent the game never really recovered from it. The stuff that was missing at launch actually broke the game when it was added in, and they redid the entire game system TWICE trying to fix it, which drove off all their subscribers. The Force Unleashed 2 is another good example, as everyone I've talked to that played it was vastly disappointed and thought it was massively overpriced for being as short and unoriginal as it was.

And yes, I am scared to death about SW:tOR as a result of those two working on it, and have been ever since Bioware got bought by EA. :X

Daniel limb
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:09:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Casanunda
If I actually knew how to get the thumbs up malarky you'd get it.

pray tell and I will support


second checkbox, below 'preview'

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:12:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Jon Taggart on 10/04/2011 02:16:38

Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 10/04/2011 02:08:20
You had some major dips in subscription counts after each new expansion lately, and those were the expansions with heavy-duty advertising and plenty of "new features" (which didn't quite work right, and most of them still don't).
Overall, on average, the subscriber count slope didn't get steeper.

I'd like a little more clarification on this. If CCP advertised more with the last few expansions, and garnered more subscribers than normal, wouldn't it be logical to say that the dips would be larger? You say it yourself, the subscriber slope maintained normalcy, meaning there weren't any severe penalties for this "unfinished" content. However, I only have you to go on though, perhaps add a link to the chart/graph you used to come to this conclusion.

I'm lazy and grading papers at the moment Sad.

I appreciate your thread and your commitment to what you feel leads to EVE's improvement.

Titus Phook
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:12:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Titus Phook on 10/04/2011 02:13:54
damn wrong character but supported anyway

Emmely Chi
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:13:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Emmely Chi on 10/04/2011 02:13:43
I SUPPORT THIS THREAD..... with big letters

Myra2007
Millstone Industries
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:16:00 - [16]
 

Sure, yes. Ultimately though we all pretty much know how this is going nowhere. Crying or Very sad

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:21:00 - [17]
 

I wouldn't mind, if for smaller things like graphical fixes and mechanics stuff that they put them out separate from the big stuff. That way, they can spend the time they need on new big things and still give us fixes regularly.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:24:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Jon Taggart
I'd like a little more clarification on this. If CCP advertised more with the last few expansions, and garnered more subscribers than normal, wouldn't it be logical to say that the dips would be larger? You say it yourself, the subscriber slope maintained normalcy, meaning there weren't any severe penalties for this "unfinished" content. However, I only have you to go on though, perhaps add a link to the chart/graph you used to come to this conclusion.

Subscriber count graphs available in the QENs.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf
On page 8 of 52.
And my mistake, when I said "didn't get steeper", what I meant to say was "it got less steep".
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7402/evesubscribers.jpg
Including rough linear approximation from the moment it became "somewhat popular".
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

S'Way
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:24:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: S''Way on 10/04/2011 02:36:32
Fully supported.

It's not that us (the players) don't want change or new things, they're welcomed - but it should not come at the cost of poor quality.

There's been lots of small things that need fixing which have gone by CCP's radar for a long time because they seem to mostly concentrate on new features and shiny new things.

A quality game with attention to making existing content work properly first and foremost - then only adding new shiny things once they've been fully and properly tested with feedback from players listened to is what is most needed.

Ebisu Kami
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:25:00 - [20]
 

Do like. What else is there to say?

Siiee
Recycled Heroes
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:27:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Jon Taggart

I'd like a little more clarification on this. If CCP advertised more with the last few expansions, and garnered more subscribers than normal, wouldn't it be logical to say that the dips would be larger? You say it yourself, the subscriber slope maintained normalcy, meaning there weren't any severe penalties for this "unfinished" content. However, I only have you to go on though, perhaps add a link to the chart/graph you used to come to this conclusion.



Well from a longer strategic standpoint at least you can only bait and swtich people so many times before they stop coming back to be a part of the peak. The new content is not causing bumps in subscriber numbers to "stick", and if growth is about the same ignoring it then you could say that it's only old content that's pulling it along. If development keeps ignoring solid longstanding content eventually that growth will decline and pumping numbers with new failed content will no longer be able to keep up.

Sturmwolke
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:27:00 - [22]
 

Old topic, but with you as the resident evangelist ... we might have a chance Wink

Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:35:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Siiee
Originally by: Jon Taggart

I'd like a little more clarification on this. If CCP advertised more with the last few expansions, and garnered more subscribers than normal, wouldn't it be logical to say that the dips would be larger? You say it yourself, the subscriber slope maintained normalcy, meaning there weren't any severe penalties for this "unfinished" content. However, I only have you to go on though, perhaps add a link to the chart/graph you used to come to this conclusion.



Well from a longer strategic standpoint at least you can only bait and swtich people so many times before they stop coming back to be a part of the peak. The new content is not causing bumps in subscriber numbers to "stick", and if growth is about the same ignoring it then you could say that it's only old content that's pulling it along. If development keeps ignoring solid longstanding content eventually that growth will decline and pumping numbers with new failed content will no longer be able to keep up.

You're right, the reverse can also be true. That's why I think Incarna will greatly increase the retention rate of subscribers, but it's also understandable why many players are sick of hearing about it as nobody can actually play it.

krickettt
Golden Orb Technology inc
EVE Animal Control
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:40:00 - [24]
 

Supported. Tired of broken features. CCP needs a new QA team as well.

Mr LaForge
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:43:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Mr LaForge on 10/04/2011 02:51:30
Gonna support this and also a support to the old forums which we use now.

I understand CCP wanting to do new things and stuff but to me the only team at CCP that has accomplished anything of real value to the community and the game is Team BFF and their small fixes patch. THAT got people excited and THAT was a large success. I for one REALLY REALLY like the new contracts system.

I also will confess I don't use evegate. I never wanted to use it and still don't use it but the new forum(which is now dead) is integrated into it. What I would have wanted was a redesign of THIS website to make IT for functional along with a kickass search feature. The new forums went through 2 rounds of testing and didn't even survive their first real weekend.

It is telling when several upstanding community members whom myself and others look up to for their opinions are telling the company whose game they play to stop and slow down. It indicates disappointment and unsatisfaction.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:46:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: krickettt
Supported. Tired of broken features. CCP needs a new QA team as well.

Speaking of which, I heard whispers of unconfirmed rumours that CCP actually lost a noticeable portion of their former testers not so long ago (fuzzy on the details as to why though), so basically, they're running with an understaffed and overworked QA team.
Would love to get an official denial of that, but appearances do lend a lot of credence to those rumours.
It would certainly explain a few things.

Cire XIII
Caldari
Ever Flow
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:47:00 - [27]
 

I fully support this Akita. Eve should be a highly polished game, where the bulk of new content is generated by the players.

Lucius C Sulla
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:55:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Lucius C Sulla on 10/04/2011 02:55:08
Seriously though, how do expect a company which can't even manage to properly setup a new forum to really be able to get even more complex things done right. I'm not trying to be extremely rude, but these problems (specifically the forums) do speak towards the actual planning, execution and management of operations. A top to bottom reassessment of the workforce is probably a good prescription for the current ailments of CCP.

Just saying

Idami Raptor
Gallente
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:56:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Idami Raptor on 10/04/2011 02:56:31
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: krickettt
Supported. Tired of broken features. CCP needs a new QA team as well.

Speaking of which, I heard whispers of unconfirmed rumours that CCP actually lost a noticeable portion of their former testers not so long ago (fuzzy on the details as to why though), so basically, they're running with an understaffed and overworked QA team.
Would love to get an official denial of that, but appearances do lend a lot of credence to those rumours.
It would certainly explain a few things.


http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=239
*whistle innocently*

Mortania
Minmatar
No Compromise
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:02:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: krickettt
Supported. Tired of broken features. CCP needs a new QA team as well.

Speaking of which, I heard whispers of unconfirmed rumours that CCP actually lost a noticeable portion of their former testers not so long ago (fuzzy on the details as to why though), so basically, they're running with an understaffed and overworked QA team.
Would love to get an official denial of that, but appearances do lend a lot of credence to those rumours.
It would certainly explain a few things.



I've been thinking about this... I'm not going to blame QA anymore.

We've seen that when people do point out problems with features that they are ignored and pushed through anyway (and you might get a ban on top of it).

This is a management problem. A lack of resolve to quality.


Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... : last (15)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only