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Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:09:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Barakkus on 10/04/2011 02:13:51
Originally by: Karak Terrel
Originally by: Barakkus

I have to watch the bug reports for postgresql in order to keep on top of **** at work and deal with anything that they haven't fixed and probably won't fix for months. The attitudes of the people that work on postgresql, especially Tom Lane is abysmal and ****ing stupid.


Right, and you never get that problem with closed source because it is bug free? And how would you fix it there on your own if for example oracle is to lazy to fix an issue with their software? With OS you have at least the chance to find a third party that will do the support for you if "the community" isn't willing to fix your "very important" problems. "Community" does not mean they work for you if you don't pay them.

Everyone that still relays on CS software with a potential lock in is in my opinion just plain stupid and takes risks no one would take in any other field.

If you still think OS has something to do with idealism then you understand nothing at all. Its the only way to get a free market in the software business.


Um, no, any support we've had to get from Oracle, Microsoft, Symantec or any other vendor has been top notch and immediate response, I've had patches made for BackupExec from Symantec within a week for problems we've had to contact them for, and their tech support provided a work around within a day or two.

I trust someone I'm paying to provide solutions faster than relying on some random people out in the ether...they want your money, they fix your problems, pretty simple.

I've been waiting on a bug fix for hot standby database corruption from postgresql for a good month since deploying 9. They still are trying to fix it (and arguing about it). It doesn't affect our ability to run the database, but the hot standby feature is sitting there languishing because they're too busy fighting about the fix for it. There's a number of other problems with their implementations of character sets and floating point values that ARE a big deal, and haven't gotten fixed and aren't even getting responded to. If I was running MSSQL I would expect that to be fixed faster than waiting on the people "working" on postgresql.

I tried to get them to use Oracle or MSSQL server, but they wanted to go the cheap route and use postgresql and now we're stuck with a database platform that was developed by people that don't understand threading and is unnecessarily a resource hog. They can't even get it to actually cluster...you have to go do some backasswards way of getting any sort of pseudo clustering done...they wouldn't go with MySQL because the stupid web designers didn't like it, then they ended up sticking with Oracle and not even moving to postgresql because they're too lazy to port their crap code to postgresql.

Nypheas Azurai
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:15:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Nypheas Azurai on 10/04/2011 02:28:06

Originally by: Barakkus
Lol, go ahead and keep raging opensource fanboi

Several others in this thread already stated CCP used YAF.net, which is open-source, so clearly they are "fanboi's" too.

The issue here is they didn't choose wisely because they let their choice be governed by ease (YAF is also ASP.net, so they can hack it into EVEGate with less work), rather than security and robustness. There are several hundred forumboard packages out there, but phpBB is one of, if not, the best when it comes to robustness, usability, and security. More so than anything that exists out there currently, and anything they could design in-house. It's not because it is designed in some specific language (AJAX and MVC.net, are both more advanced and feature-rich than php), it is because it is widely-used, tested, and updated.

If CCP are looking for the best solution instead of just one that can be easily hacked into EVEGate, then they will choose a well-known forumboard package such as phpBB.

Edit:
Someone already took the time to explain to you that you can "pay" anyone to support anything. Paying for support isn't exclusive to closed-source companies. You can hire developers to support your forum installation if you so choose, and unlike Microsoft support, there is competition, so not only do they have more incentive to provide a better service, they also answer only to you.

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:35:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Barakkus

I trust someone I'm paying to provide solutions faster than relying on some random people out in the ether...they want your money, they fix your problems, pretty simple.



Well, thats what i say! But you compare a community which is btw most of the time a group of people that get paid by someone and thats why they fix the problem of this party and not yours. The difference is that with CS you have to get that support form Oracle, Symantec or Microsoft. They will probably not do it, but if they decide to rise support costs, no longer deliver fixes in time, etc. there is nothing you can do because 99% of the time you have no chance to migrate to another database. With an OS solution you don't have that lock in. If you want the same support for postgres you have to pay for it, opensource does not mean free support. If the company ****es you of and doesn't fix stuff in time there may as well be another company that will fix it for you, support is a free market in the OS world. Someone that locks his data into a product which is only maintained by one company and with EULA's that give them the right to forbid you to use the product and doesn't freaking matter how unlikely they will use that right, is just INSANE!

Even the big players have realized this now. For example, if redhat support ****es you of, you can now buy rhel support from oracle..

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:40:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Nypheas Azurai

Edit:
Someone already took the time to explain to you that you can "pay" anyone to support anything. Paying for support isn't exclusive to closed-source companies. You can hire developers to support your forum installation if you so choose, and unlike Microsoft support, there is competition, so not only do they have more incentive to provide a better service, they also answer only to you.


Enterprise level tech support from Microsoft is excellent actually, so is Symantec's support as well as Dell's enterprise level support.

People that ***** about companies and their tech support are *****ing about consumer level support most of the time, most of the time enterprise level support from companies is much, much better...they want to keep the money coming in, so they will bend over backwards to support their enterprise customers.

There's a current issue with being able to DoS sites running the latest version of PHP by submitting bogus get requests with huge floating point values...haven't patched that yet as far as I can tell or even acknowledged it.

All I'm saying is opensource is far from superior to actually purchasing your software, which the opensource fanbois seem to want to espouse until they're blue in the face...doesn't mean that is actually the case...

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:46:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Karak Terrel
99% of the time you have no chance to migrate to another database


No, the only reason someone would not be able to migrate to a different database platform is because they are unwilling to, or they locked themselves into a particular language and are unwilling to do something different. There is no reason someone couldn't migrate data from Oracle to PostgreSQL to MSSQL to MySQL to DB2 then back again. I've had to migrate data from various database platforms and rewrite applications to work with a new platform, there is no way to "lock you into" a particular product. There are only 2 products I know of that you get "locked" into because they are so closed and that's SAP and MAS...and even then you could migrate off of those...

Max Romeo
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:46:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Yaba Yaba

You misunderstand the benefits of open source. Linux isn't one of the most secure operating systems because it's closed source. The fact that iot's open source allows ANYONE to view the source and thus find bugs and patches.

tl;dr: everyone in this thread is dense


Own goal bro.

Users arn't developers; Developers who are going to look at the source are going to see the problems if they have paid for the code or not(in the case of something like non-binary php). There's even some research in ACM papers about the 'many eyes' concept being a paradox; In that while more people 'hack on' source, they often propagate lower quality code than the upstream author as well as seldom checking or report security issues, while all the time thinking 'this is safe, many other people have looked at it'... chances are no one has unless it has research/reimplementation potential... forums don't. You're also generally confusing hobbyists and hackers for professionals (even if most devs these days are CCP's level of badness, whatever).

Code quality is a hard metric to define, but it's got very little correlation to the license in a case like this.

But I have feeling you're some hardened Stallman rimming, GNUtard.
(See : How many lines of kernel/crypto stack have you audited, how often do you read your httpd's socket handlers?, do you sub to all of the repo mailing lists? 'many' eyes... heeeeh)

Nypheas Azurai
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:51:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
All I'm saying is opensource is far from superior to actually purchasing your software, which the opensource fanbois seem to want to espouse until they're blue in the face...doesn't mean that is actually the case...

Excellent, and you're completely off-base, so move along to another thread.

We've already established that CCP is using an open-source forum, so either suggest a closed-source version that you think is "superior" and that they can roll out in a reasonable time and is also robust and secure, or explain which open-source package they should be using and why.

If it's the former, you can't obviously, since it's closed source and you will have little knowledge of it unless you have purchased it before, and even then, won't know how it works internally. If it's the latter, then you'd be hard-pressed to find any better open-source package than the one mentioned in thread title.

Saying "open source is far from superior" is useless banter and can be said of anything. In this case (attempting to setup forums that are robust and secure) it is more desirable to have as many eyes on potential bugs and exploits than that 1 guy in QA, and for that... for that you need open-source.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.10 02:56:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Barakkus on 10/04/2011 02:56:31
Originally by: Nypheas Azurai

We've already established that CCP is using an open-source forum, so either suggest a closed-source version that you think is "superior" and that they can roll out in a reasonable time and is also robust and secure, or explain which open-source package they should be using and why.


What they SHOULD have done from the beginning is code it themselves in something that's not interpreted and isn't opensource.

There's more than java, php and other nonsense out there. They could have simply done a whole ISAPI application suite instead of relying on opensource garbage and written a much, much better site than dealing with any of this interpreted crap.

You obviously have no clue about developing software so maybe you should move along...

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:01:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 10/04/2011 03:02:59
Originally by: Nypheas Azurai
Edited by: Nypheas Azurai on 10/04/2011 02:28:06

Originally by: Barakkus
Lol, go ahead and keep raging opensource fanboi

Several others in this thread already stated CCP used YAF.net, which is open-source, so clearly they are "fanboi's" too.

The issue here is they didn't choose wisely because they let their choice be governed by ease (YAF is also ASP.net, so they can hack it into EVEGate with less work), rather than security and robustness. There are several hundred forumboard packages out there, but phpBB is one of, if not, the best when it comes to robustness, usability, and security. More so than anything that exists out there currently, and anything they could design in-house. It's not because it is designed in some specific language (AJAX and MVC.net, are both more advanced and feature-rich than php), it is because it is widely-used, tested, and updated.

If CCP are looking for the best solution instead of just one that can be easily hacked into EVEGate, then they will choose a well-known forumboard package such as phpBB.

Edit:
Someone already took the time to explain to you that you can "pay" anyone to support anything. Paying for support isn't exclusive to closed-source companies. You can hire developers to support your forum installation if you so choose, and unlike Microsoft support, there is competition, so not only do they have more incentive to provide a better service, they also answer only to you.


what happened here was:


- CCP picked the YAF way.
- reskins it to their tastes,
- proceeds to pretty much remove every security feature it has,
- breaks IMG tags in the process,
- breaks whatever security feature was still there,
- HTML code is, somehow, allowed to post,
- work complete!

so no, while YAF.net's security level might be debatable, the fault here lies on CCP and CCP alone.
-

Nypheas Azurai
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:11:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
What they SHOULD have done from the beginning is code it themselves in something that's not interpreted and isn't opensource.

Although I do appreciate the irony coming from someone who is clearly code-illiterate, suffice to say EVEGate was in-house. EVE is CCP's "in-house" thing, not forum software. I didn't think I needed to explain to you why anything CCP develops in-house in the next few weeks or even months won't beat something that is many people's life's work for the last few years.

If you think code that has been running on millions of servers and services millions of users of the last decade has problems, wait until you see just how robust is code that's been pushed out in a few weeks and only tested in-house by that 1 QA guy.

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.10 03:13:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Barakkus on 10/04/2011 03:16:06
Originally by: Nypheas Azurai
Originally by: Barakkus
What they SHOULD have done from the beginning is code it themselves in something that's not interpreted and isn't opensource.

Although I do appreciate the irony coming from someone who is clearly code-illiterate, suffice to say EVEGate was in-house.


Ok rtard boy. Get back to me when you've been a professional developer not making rinky dink web pages for over 10 years.

Let me know when you've coded your own custom SSH servers and database applications...and handle a little less than a billion dollars annually with software you've written...then maybe you can talk...until then you're just some clueless rtard 20 something that thinks he knows it all because he plays with linux.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:14:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Nypheas Azurai
Hire a php developer
PHP is not sold by Microsoft… Wink


Thank ****ing God. Microsoft could screw up an attempt to boil water.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:24:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
Um, no, any support we've had to get from Oracle, Microsoft, Symantec or any other vendor has been top notch and immediate response


Uh. No. This has absolutely not been my experience. Especially from Sun/Oracle.

Quote:

I've been waiting on a bug fix for hot standby database corruption from postgresql for a good month since deploying 9. They still are trying to fix it (and arguing about it). It doesn't affect our ability to run the database, but the hot standby feature is sitting there languishing because they're too busy fighting about the fix for it. There's a number of other problems with their implementations of character sets and floating point values that ARE a big deal, and haven't gotten fixed and aren't even getting responded to. If I was running MSSQL I would expect that to be fixed faster than waiting on the people "working" on postgresql.



This **** happens with all databases. The amount of working around Oracle bugs I've seen done because we couldn't get Oracle to fix their broken **** is ****ing amazing.

Quote:
I tried to get them to use Oracle or MSSQL server, but they wanted to go the cheap route and use postgresql and now we're stuck with a database platform that was developed by people that don't understand threading and is unnecessarily a resource hog.


PostgreSQL and Oracle are different. They both have features that the other lacks, but in the end I'd rather use PostgreSQL for most purposes. And yes, I'm more than capable of debating the internals of the databases if you care to. ;-)

-Liang

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:26:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Barakkus

No, the only reason someone would not be able to migrate to a different database platform is because they are unwilling to, or they locked themselves into a particular language and are unwilling to do something different. There is no reason someone couldn't migrate data from Oracle to PostgreSQL to MSSQL to MySQL to DB2 then back again. I've had to migrate data from various database platforms and rewrite applications to work with a new platform, there is no way to "lock you into" a particular product. There are only 2 products I know of that you get "locked" into because they are so closed and that's SAP and MAS...and even then you could migrate off of those...


What the **** is this noise? Are you drunk? Have you ever worked with a database bigger than 30 Gigs? Its not a simple matter to migrate 5 million lines of code and 250+ terabytes of data to a different database for ****ing ****s and giggles. Rolling Eyes

-Liang

Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:30:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Yaba Yaba
Originally by: Barakkus
Security issues are not "instantly fixed" that's a load of crap that opensource fanboi's constantly spout. That's not how it works in the opensource world and you know it.


You misunderstand the benefits of open source. Linux isn't one of the most secure operating systems because it's closed source. The fact that iot's open source allows ANYONE to view the source and thus find bugs and patches.

The reason why the forums broke so easily is because CCP messed with the authentication system, not because they were based off an open source project.

tl;dr: everyone in this thread is dense
Its also the most secure because almost noone uses it.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:32:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
What they SHOULD have done from the beginning is code it themselves in something that's not interpreted and isn't opensource.


There are costs and benefits for doing it either way. If you write it yourself:
- Your software is closed, and rare. That makes it somewhat harder for The Bad Men to find the holes in it.
- Your QA department is all the QA you get.
- You have to maintain it, and fix all the bugs associated with it.

If you use off the shelf parts:
- Your software is open (potentially), but is not rare. That makes it somewhat easier for The Bad Men to find holes in it. It also means that someone finding a 0 day on another board will instantly **** your piece of software.
- You get a lot more QA.
- You don't necessarily have to fix the bugs... but you are allowed to contribute a patch if its open source.

As to your ******ed interpreted vs compiled langauge: you're just wrong. For the most part, interpreted languages are slightly slower but are much more expressive. This means that you can slam out higher quality code in much less time.

-Liang

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:36:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Barakkus

No, the only reason someone would not be able to migrate to a different database platform is because they are unwilling to, or they locked themselves into a particular language and are unwilling to do something different. There is no reason someone couldn't migrate data from Oracle to PostgreSQL to MSSQL to MySQL to DB2 then back again. I've had to migrate data from various database platforms and rewrite applications to work with a new platform, there is no way to "lock you into" a particular product. There are only 2 products I know of that you get "locked" into because they are so closed and that's SAP and MAS...and even then you could migrate off of those...


What the **** is this noise? Are you drunk? Have you ever worked with a database bigger than 30 Gigs? Its not a simple matter to migrate 5 million lines of code and 250+ terabytes of data to a different database for ****ing ****s and giggles. Rolling Eyes

-Liang


Trust me, I don't do that **** for ****s and giggles, took 5 years to migrate to PostgreSQL :P

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:55:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Barakkus

No, the only reason someone would not be able to migrate to a different database platform is because they are unwilling to, or they locked themselves into a particular language and are unwilling to do something different. There is no reason someone couldn't migrate data from Oracle to PostgreSQL to MSSQL to MySQL to DB2 then back again. I've had to migrate data from various database platforms and rewrite applications to work with a new platform, there is no way to "lock you into" a particular product. There are only 2 products I know of that you get "locked" into because they are so closed and that's SAP and MAS...and even then you could migrate off of those...


What the **** is this noise? Are you drunk? Have you ever worked with a database bigger than 30 Gigs? Its not a simple matter to migrate 5 million lines of code and 250+ terabytes of data to a different database for ****ing ****s and giggles. Rolling Eyes

-Liang


Trust me, I don't do that **** for ****s and giggles, took 5 years to migrate to PostgreSQL :P


Ok, so a 5 year investment to switch databases seems to be a pretty damn good reason not to do it.

-Liang

Gravemind GER
Caldari
Fnord Works
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.04.10 05:58:00 - [49]
 

boah hell no, dont give them the idea to use the ****ty phpbb forum... its nothing but problems and only freebies and new***s in the internets use this ****.

i prefer vbulletin 3.x or myBB or smf

Aineko Macx
Posted - 2011.04.10 06:48:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Gravemind GER
boah hell no, dont give them the idea to use the ****ty phpbb forum... its nothing but problems and only freebies and new***s in the internets use this ****.
i prefer vbulletin 3.x or myBB or smf

Yeah, I don't get why it's always phpBB people suggest, when it has nothing going for it except being the most used, which just helps perpetuate the fact...

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:10:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren

Ok, so a 5 year investment to switch databases seems to be a pretty damn good reason not to do it.

-Liang


Trust me, we had to.

The way the software was re-engineered another migration would only take us maybe a year, and if I can manage to get a particular set of components, and they work out right, I can cut that down to maybe 6-9 months, but that's another 3-6 months work to swap out database components. We'd pretty much be able to migrate to any database platform with minimal work after that, at least internally...web designers, well that's another story...but they're switching all the web stuff to use hibernate, so that may not be that big of a deal either.

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.04.10 13:43:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Barakkus

All I'm saying is opensource is far from superior to actually purchasing your software, which the opensource fanbois seem to want to espouse until they're blue in the face...doesn't mean that is actually the case...



It seams you don't have a problem with open source, you have a problem with free software, and by free i mean free as in free beer. Most of the companies pay for their open source software and then they get their support exactly the same way as you get support for closed source software. Yet again, the difference is that if you can't switch the software (which is not impossible but expensive), you can change the company that supports it. Because there is now way the can hold your own data ransom.

If the developers you work for decided to use postgres because it is cheap and now depend on the support they didn't want to pay for, they are complete morons, and it's their problem if they don't get a quick solution. Actually it's your problem, but thats because ppl in dba, op and se are always where the problems all the devs and architects caused have to been solved. From that perspective your situation is far from unique.

Malaclypse Muscaria
Posted - 2011.04.10 15:31:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
Um, no, any support we've had to get from Oracle, Microsoft, Symantec or any other vendor has been top notch and immediate response

One of my clients is a big Oracle customer, not just for their database products, but their pharmaceutical and CRM (Siebel) software, and what I've seen through them has left me with a very poor opinion of Oracle, both regarding the quality of their software and their support.

It's bad, and I'm on certain occasions called to clean up after the Oracle consultants, when they are unable to figure out why their own software installation keeps burping, sometimes regarding some very basic things. But as unhappy as they may be with Oracle, this company has no other choice: you may be able to switch database vendors given enough time & effort, but not when it comes to their pharmaceutical software.

This company also relies on Microsoft for Active Directory, Exchange and so on, and all I hear from them in that regard is pain and misery.

On the other hand, the Linux servers and custom made software running on them based on open source technologies (Apache, Java, Python, JBoss, Tomcat, Plone, etc...) are not only a joy to work with, they've also never given us any significant problems.

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.04.10 15:38:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 10/04/2011 15:41:20
Edited by: Erichk Knaar on 10/04/2011 15:38:52
Originally by: Barakkus
Edited by: Barakkus on 10/04/2011 02:13:51
I've been waiting on a bug fix for hot standby database corruption from postgresql for a good month since deploying 9. They still are trying to fix it (and arguing about it). It doesn't affect our ability to run the database, but the hot standby feature is sitting there languishing because they're too busy fighting about the fix for it. There's a number of other problems with their implementations of character sets and floating point values that ARE a big deal, and haven't gotten fixed and aren't even getting responded to. If I was running MSSQL I would expect that to be fixed faster than waiting on the people "working" on postgresql.



You do realize this affects all products. I've got some great Oracle stories through the years. PGSQL is a perfectly good platform. You do know you can get very good pro support for it? Are you trying to run it on Windows or something?


EDIT: Also, phpBB is terrible.

Hamburgg
Posted - 2011.04.10 17:48:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Barakkus
Hell ****ing no. PHPBB is nothing but asking for security breaches.

phpBB3 has not had a single serious security hole since it was released 3 years ago. phpbb2 is the version everyone thinks about for security problems. phpBB3 is a completely new version.

Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2011.04.10 17:58:00 - [56]
 

I don't think it's fair to attack open source over the fact that CCP disabled the normal security features in favor of something utterly demented of their own devising.

Leave FOSS alone, direct your anger at the people that took a good forum, ruined it, rebranded it, then released it; while claiming they spent 72,000 man hours on it.



Alex Artrald
Posted - 2011.04.10 18:05:00 - [57]
 

While I'm not a fan of phpbb I was wondering why they didn't use a premade script. If they wanted free MyBB would have been my choice but there are paid options as well of forums.

Ban Doga
Posted - 2011.04.10 18:23:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: Ban Doga on 10/04/2011 18:23:16
Originally by: Barakkus
Edited by: Barakkus on 10/04/2011 02:56:31
any of this interpreted crap.

What's the problem with interpreted languages?

Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.04.10 18:27:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Edited by: Ban Doga on 10/04/2011 18:23:16
Originally by: Barakkus
Edited by: Barakkus on 10/04/2011 02:56:31
any of this interpreted crap.

What's the problem with interpreted languages?


+1

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.04.10 22:26:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Ban Doga
Edited by: Ban Doga on 10/04/2011 18:23:16
Originally by: Barakkus
Edited by: Barakkus on 10/04/2011 02:56:31
any of this interpreted crap.

What's the problem with interpreted languages?


There are two problems with interpreted languages:

1) People don't understand that most of this languages are just "the glue" on top and that the expensive operations still run in compiled code. (thats not true for some ruby implementations and probably for some other script languages to. php?)
2) the amount of work to implement something in a dynamic script languages is much smaller than the implementation in a not so dynamic compiled language. From the money you save there you can buy better hardware which compensates that "glue on the top". Hardware is cheaper than programmers. There are cases where this is not true, but you can identify them and replace only this particular code with something faster (in the case of eve probably the inventory system if i read the devblog right?).


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