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Judicator Saturnius
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.04.10 19:23:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Deb Dukar
(requires no player skill)


Rolling Eyes That argument again.

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.10 20:35:00 - [62]
 

Tengu is not the worst pvp t3 - it makes the best bait and is able to fit 210k or so EHP without implants or fleet boosters or w/e, and that's with point, MWD and DPS included, while using t2 modules.

I'm not sure how much EHP you can get out of the proteus or why you think it's the best pvp t3 but in my book tengu is king

P.S. Just for kicks I made a vulture CS in EFT and added the bonuses to the tengu - 293k EHP, 50 k shield. 500 defense from recharge alone. Must be one hell of a proteus to beat that.

Judicator Saturnius
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.04.10 20:47:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 10/04/2011 20:48:11
For the lulz:

[Proteus, Proteus gone ridiculous - 785k Effective Hit Points]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Centum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Core B-Type Armor EM Hardener
Core B-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Core B-Type Armor Thermic Hardener

Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
10MN Afterburner II

Light Neutron Blaster II
Light Neutron Blaster II
Light Neutron Blaster II
Light Neutron Blaster II
Drone Link Augmentor I
Empty

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier

/yawn

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.10 21:12:00 - [64]
 

Too bad they don't have slave set equivalent for shields. Still a lot of hp and small signature. yes I'll admit that's one hell of a ship.

Tengu still makes a better bait though. Most pilots out there know the only role proteus has and will do their best to stay the hell out of range. And it's not like with 3 trimark 2s and an AB you can catch anyone.

If you do use that fit I'm guessing that you'd still die except slowly :)

I suspect that a heavy interdictor would do the same job that this proteus does.

Irani Firecam
Posted - 2011.04.10 21:16:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Songbird
Too bad they don't have slave set equivalent for shields.
That would be the crystal set.

Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
United Mining And Distribution
Posted - 2011.04.10 22:32:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Irani Firecam
That would be the crystal set.

Swing and a miss

Celia Therone
Posted - 2011.04.10 22:35:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Goose99

Tengu does not have "way more dps." ~800 ham or ~600 hml compared to ~800 autos+drones. What it has is way more range, which has to do with missile range in general. ~100km heavy missiles are definitely an advantage for pve. Cruise = ~200km range, heavy having ~100km amounts to similar ratio as large vs medium guns.

HML tengu: 842 dps (scourge fury, T2 launchers, CN BCUs, 5% implants - what I actually run with)
HAM tengu: 1052 dps (terror rage assault, T2 launchers, CN BCUs, 5% implants)

You could go higher with officer bcus, for example, but imho the gankability/DPS trade-off isn't there.

I think that the tengu is just about right considering its cost. Pirate battleships are in the same ballpark price wise and can offer better dps traded for slower ship speed/agility. Which is best is mission specific...

Judicator Saturnius
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.04.10 22:40:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 10/04/2011 22:41:25
Originally by: Songbird
Too bad they don't have slave set equivalent for shields. Still a lot of hp and small signature. yes I'll admit that's one hell of a ship.

Tengu still makes a better bait though. Most pilots out there know the only role proteus has and will do their best to stay the hell out of range. And it's not like with 3 trimark 2s and an AB you can catch anyone.

If you do use that fit I'm guessing that you'd still die except slowly :)

I suspect that a heavy interdictor would do the same job that this proteus does.


Agreed, do want shield-slave set. Make it negate recharge rate aswell.

Tengu isn't really better bait unless you're RP'ing a ratter or something. People will generally jump a t3 of any sort without thinking, regardless of which one it is.

The idea is to survive until the fleet arrives, but yes, don't go and solo in this unless you're a fan of DHB quality lossmails.

A HIC do the same job? Well sure, if the enemy is stupid enough to jump a HIC. Seriously getting away from "baiting," semi-intellignet players at that poing though and sinking well into the realm of "welp, those guys were idiots." Twisted Evil

Goose99
Posted - 2011.04.11 01:29:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Goose99 on 11/04/2011 01:46:47
Originally by: Celia Therone
Originally by: Goose99

Tengu does not have "way more dps." ~800 ham or ~600 hml compared to ~800 autos+drones. What it has is way more range, which has to do with missile range in general. ~100km heavy missiles are definitely an advantage for pve. Cruise = ~200km range, heavy having ~100km amounts to similar ratio as large vs medium guns.

HML tengu: 842 dps (scourge fury, T2 launchers, CN BCUs, 5% implants - what I actually run with)
HAM tengu: 1052 dps (terror rage assault, T2 launchers, CN BCUs, 5% implants)

You could go higher with officer bcus, for example, but imho the gankability/DPS trade-off isn't there.

I think that the tengu is just about right considering its cost. Pirate battleships are in the same ballpark price wise and can offer better dps traded for slower ship speed/agility. Which is best is mission specific...



That's a moot point. If you're going with 4 faction dmg mods, 5% implants, and t2 ammo, loki also keeps pace on dps. It's still a matter of range difference, not dps.

Originally by: Judicator Saturnius
Edited by: Judicator Saturnius on 10/04/2011 22:41:25
Originally by: Songbird
Too bad they don't have slave set equivalent for shields. Still a lot of hp and small signature. yes I'll admit that's one hell of a ship.

Tengu still makes a better bait though. Most pilots out there know the only role proteus has and will do their best to stay the hell out of range. And it's not like with 3 trimark 2s and an AB you can catch anyone.

If you do use that fit I'm guessing that you'd still die except slowly :)

I suspect that a heavy interdictor would do the same job that this proteus does.


Agreed, do want shield-slave set. Make it negate recharge rate aswell.

Tengu isn't really better bait unless you're RP'ing a ratter or something. People will generally jump a t3 of any sort without thinking, regardless of which one it is.

The idea is to survive until the fleet arrives, but yes, don't go and solo in this unless you're a fan of DHB quality lossmails.

A HIC do the same job? Well sure, if the enemy is stupid enough to jump a HIC. Seriously getting away from "baiting," semi-intellignet players at that poing though and sinking well into the realm of "welp, those guys were idiots." Twisted Evil


Subsystem bonus for long scram, not just long point. It's ineffective without long scram. That fit is just eft warrioring for max ehp. A typical fit will have mwd, and the opponent won't, because it's scrammed. Once scrammed, the fight is already over. Proteus is pretty much the most effective solo boat.

As for the 200k ehp tengu, not sure what kind of fit that would be. I'd imagine it would be a slow, bloated sig punching bag more than anything useful.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.11 02:35:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Goose99
As for the 200k ehp tengu, not sure what kind of fit that would be. I'd imagine it would be a slow, bloated sig punching bag more than anything useful.


Faster than a Drake, more DPS, lower sig, etc.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.04.11 03:46:00 - [71]
 

I wonder how effective a Loki gang would be against an Ahac gang...

Celia Therone
Posted - 2011.04.11 04:26:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Goose99
Originally by: Celia Therone
Originally by: Goose99

Tengu does not have "way more dps." ~800 ham or ~600 hml compared to ~800 autos+drones.

HML tengu: 842 dps (scourge fury, T2 launchers, CN BCUs, 5% implants - what I actually run with)
HAM tengu: 1052 dps (terror rage assault, T2 launchers, CN BCUs, 5% implants)

I think that the tengu is just about right considering its cost. Pirate battleships are in the same ballpark price wise and can offer better dps traded for slower ship speed/agility. Which is best is mission specific...


That's a moot point. If you're going with 4 faction dmg mods, 5% implants, and t2 ammo, loki also keeps pace on dps. It's still a matter of range difference, not dps.


Post a loki fitting? I probably failfit at lokis, not flying them myself, but I wasn't getting equivalent dps.

It is a combination of dps, range and mitigation to figure out applied dps (as well as agility and speed). If tengus topped out at your claimed ~600dps for hml then almost no-one would fly them in PvE despite their range. As it is they top out at 40% more, can apply it, and are very popular.

Aamrr
Posted - 2011.04.11 04:32:00 - [73]
 

I'm inclined to believe a Loki would beat a proteus. Webs have a longer range than scrams, so bonused webs have a longer range than bonused scrams, and that margin only increases.

The Loki is also faster and more agile than the Proteus, and has more than enough range to plink down the proteus's buffer from a distance.

Maybe my analysis is flawed, but it seems like a Vaga vs. Deimos fight, and that's pretty one sided...

Kira Pasisson
M'8'S
Posted - 2011.04.11 09:57:00 - [74]
 

imo all these t3 ships have their niches, their pros and cons...no need to nerf or boost (though the different production stuff idea is good)

just an example for a disadvantage of the tengu:
if u are going for smaller scale, guerilla-style warfare in 0.0, therefore needing the interdiction nullifier and the covert thingy, all other t3s can still use their ew-bonus which creates a nice gang of pimped recons.
the tengu cant, its only ew-bonus which still applies is ecm-range, but this one is obsolete when u have no ecm strength bonus...so in this combat-type, where t3s can be used perfectly, the tengu can only be a baby damage dealer without adding to the ew-versatility which means its sucks imo as any other t3 would generally be better-suited.

in pve it might shine but i cant imagine any other ship being such a juicy suicide-gank target (1400mm ftw)...therefore u definetly have a higher risk flying a tengu...

so obviously even the mighty tengu got its drawbacks

Straight Edged
Posted - 2011.04.11 11:14:00 - [75]
 

The only real way to fly a pvp tengu is to fly the 100mn web-scram HM tengu.

Its probably the only T3 active tanked ship i would fly, being able to tank 1.6-2.2K Dps unneuted (800+ dps neuted)

I dont think there is any other T3 with such huge tanking power while still able to dish out 500-600 dps to 90km+

Oh yea. active tanked legion is awesome too actually :)



Pod Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.11 12:10:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Pod Amarr on 11/04/2011 12:15:00
Originally by: Irani Firecam
Originally by: Songbird
Too bad they don't have slave set equivalent for shields.
That would be the crystal set.


Strike

Bt actually it would be a good idea.

Have slaves be active armour tank boost implants and not work on capitals. Thanks

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.11 15:43:00 - [77]
 

Nah - I still think the proteus can be the next big pve sh!t if only they gave it the 125mbit/s + drone bay it deserves.

And I don't care if giving it extra drones severely nerfs gun dps.

I have to say it would go from station decoration to a nice machine for me.

The Djego
Minmatar
Hellequin Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.11 16:18:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: The Djego on 11/04/2011 16:20:06
Originally by: Songbird
Nah - I still think the proteus can be the next big pve sh!t if only they gave it the 125mbit/s + drone bay it deserves.

And I don't care if giving it extra drones severely nerfs gun dps.



Well the pve content where you need t3 sized tanks shoots drones, the pve content that does not don't require a t3 sized tank and works with a ishtar or domi just fine. *shrugs*

Edit: Also legion is far superior for station spinning compared to the Proteus. Cool

Tyme Xandr
Gallente
State Protectorate
Posted - 2011.04.11 23:13:00 - [79]
 

Im not gonna read this whole thread, but we also need to remember how the population split in EVE is. Im a Gallente toon and had all Caldari skills till about 8 months ago when I started crossing into Gallente (which I regret).

Most people in EVE fly Caldari, which is why u dont often see buffs to Caldari since CCP has been trying to get people to fly other factions for years (and especially since missile nerf).

Elisa Vilerum
Posted - 2011.04.12 06:58:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Celia Therone
Originally by: Goose99
Originally by: Celia Therone
Originally by: Goose99

Tengu does not have "way more dps." ~800 ham or ~600 hml compared to ~800 autos+drones.

HML tengu: 842 dps (scourge fury, T2 launchers, CN BCUs, 5% implants - what I actually run with)
HAM tengu: 1052 dps (terror rage assault, T2 launchers, CN BCUs, 5% implants)

I think that the tengu is just about right considering its cost. Pirate battleships are in the same ballpark price wise and can offer better dps traded for slower ship speed/agility. Which is best is mission specific...


That's a moot point. If you're going with 4 faction dmg mods, 5% implants, and t2 ammo, loki also keeps pace on dps. It's still a matter of range difference, not dps.


Post a loki fitting? I probably failfit at lokis, not flying them myself, but I wasn't getting equivalent dps.

It is a combination of dps, range and mitigation to figure out applied dps (as well as agility and speed). If tengus topped out at your claimed ~600dps for hml then almost no-one would fly them in PvE despite their range. As it is they top out at 40% more, can apply it, and are very popular.


loki will still lack around 150-170 dps when using arty's(that's not keeping pace that's being ****d ) and still will not be effective over 40-45k an am being generous tank will be lowish too

[Loki, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M


Loki Defensive - Amplification Node
Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers
Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array
Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization



Hobgoblin II x5

670 dps with implants(effective from 10km to 40/45 km) vs tengus 842 dps (unlimited effectiveness from 0 km to whatever km range)

range is terrible using T2 ammo with loki so i used republic fleet.

Aldo Bridger
Posted - 2011.04.12 07:13:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Tyme Xandr
Most people in EVE fly Caldari, which is why u dont often see buffs to Caldari since CCP has been trying to get people to fly other factions for years (and especially since missile nerf).


SO much wrong... don't even..

Most -carebears- fly caldari and frankly the intelligent bears ought to know by now that the mach/varg/nightmare now do it better.

If CCP is trying ot get people to fly other races ships, they've definitely succeeded. I don't know any serious pvp'er who doesn't spend the bulk of his time flying minamtar.

AristotleOnassis
Posted - 2011.04.12 07:55:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: AristotleOnassis on 12/04/2011 07:55:47
Quote:
Most -carebears- fly caldari and frankly the intelligent bears ought to know by now that the mach/varg/nightmare now do it better.



lol. good luck being delusioned

Aldo Bridger
Posted - 2011.04.12 08:17:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: AristotleOnassis
Edited by: AristotleOnassis on 12/04/2011 07:55:47
Quote:
Most -carebears- fly caldari and frankly the intelligent bears ought to know by now that the mach/varg/nightmare now do it better.



lol. good luck being delusioned


Oh.

TENGU TENGU TENGU TENGU TENGU

Amidoinitrite?

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.12 08:47:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Aldo Bridger
Most -carebears- fly caldari and frankly the intelligent bears ought to know by now that the mach/varg/nightmare now do it better.


Not all PvE in EVE is missioning. The Tengu specifically can solo (as in one ship) two, possibly three, 10/10 DED complexes. I can run some of the lower-level complexes in my Mach, but the higher end content is iffy because of webbing and neut towers.

Quote:
If CCP is trying ot get people to fly other races ships, they've definitely succeeded. I don't know any serious pvp'er who doesn't spend the bulk of his time flying minamtar.


There is still a strong Amarr bias in nullsec.

Aldo Bridger
Posted - 2011.04.12 08:55:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
There is still a strong Amarr bias in nullsec.


You mean all those amarr ships fitted with artillery? Razz

ValentinaDLM
Minmatar
Ubi Concordia Ibi Victoria
Posted - 2011.04.12 09:05:00 - [86]
 

I don't really PVP in t3 as it is beyond my budget for PVP, but I do PVE in them and this is my take on it:

The problem as I see it is this, my tengu outdoes a cerb at shooting missiles. Sure the creb can shoot farther, but in a PVE context 100km is hardly worse than 200km.

While that drone subbed proteus or legion isn't as good as a gila or ishtar. No 125mbit bandwith means no sentry drones and fielding 2 with the legion or 3 with the proteus isn't really reasonable as the guns on them don't make up for the lack of bandwidth. It would be really nice to get an amarr drone ship that can field sentry drones aside from the geddon.

I can't really find fault with the loki though. and aside from bandwidth I really can't see much fault in the legion or proteus, aside from perhaps the cost is a bit hard to justify for some roles.

Aldo Bridger
Posted - 2011.04.12 09:15:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: ValentinaDLM
The problem as I see it is this, my tengu outdoes a cerb at shooting missiles. Sure the creb can shoot farther, but in a PVE context 100km is hardly worse than 200km.


That's more to do with the cerb being a really bad ship. Not saying the tengu isn't awsome, but the cerb blows.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.12 09:24:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Kira Pasisson
just an example for a disadvantage of the tengu:
if u are going for smaller scale, guerilla-style warfare in 0.0, therefore needing the interdiction nullifier and the covert thingy, all other t3s can still use their ew-bonus which creates a nice gang of pimped recons.
the tengu cant, its only ew-bonus which still applies is ecm-range, but this one is obsolete when u have no ecm strength bonus...so in this combat-type, where t3s can be used perfectly, the tengu can only be a baby damage dealer without adding to the ew-versatility which means its sucks imo as any other t3 would generally be better-suited.


For pvp a simple Drake can do the same stuff and it's a lot cheaper than the billion Tengu but I will certainly pvp with my Proteus instead of an Deimos.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.12 10:13:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Aldo Bridger
You mean all those amarr ships fitted with artillery? Razz


-Arty Abaddons, backed up either by Guardians or Archons.
-Hellcats, pulse Abaddons with Legions functioning as heavy tackle.
-AHACs, afterburning, armor-tanked pulse Zealots.
-SHACs, shield tanked beam Zealots.
-Pulse Zealots work in nanogangs too.

All those, yeah. The only real fleet comps where Amarr bring nothing to the table are the Drake Army, which is way too easily countered by any comp involving battleships, and the Alphafleet of Maelstroms and Scorpions, which get ****d by AHACs if they don't bring a dozen Huginns.

DuttyDan
Posted - 2011.05.19 21:20:00 - [90]
 

1. The Legion HAM subsystem is pretty poor, the Tengu equivalent not only has an extra 2.5% extra rof per level but it also has the range as well (bear in mind the damage is restricted to one damage type) but what other offensive subs only have 2 bonuses and no drones? this is an imbalance, it either needs 25m3 drones bay similar to its HAC counter part the Sacrilege or another bonus.

2. The Tengu Hybrid one is pretty lame, but so is the eagle, other than for long range sniping support, Beagles are fun but who'd use a blaster Tengu?

3. What is the benefit of the amarr drone synthesis rig again ? again the old argument of the amarrian wasted capacitor "bonus" Pitiful dps ...


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