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AstarothPrime
Posted - 2011.04.06 08:44:00 - [31]
 

Tengu excels at tanking enormous amount of punishment at specific situations which is:
no neuts
no webs
50 km+ distance

Since you dont have those in PvP -> you mite as well not risk your billion ISK ship and 256k SP
-> 50M drake will prolly do the same thing with even more meat around its bones...

Conclusion:
I have tengu for carebearing and a fleet of T2 fitted insured drakes for daily popping in pvp as neccessary...
I believe 99.9% ppl who have 5/5 skills on drakes and tengus will agree with me...

Regards

I.

Gibbo5771
Posted - 2011.04.06 09:40:00 - [32]
 

Tengu is best t3 by far for all round performance, It doesent actually have drawbacks compared to other t3's....if fit for pvp to its strenghts ofc, so proteus close range gank, loki close rangelolarmortank or kite, legion with lollasers or 100mn hams. Tengu can do all of that with the same fit

Legion : can be slow with meh dps, can be 100mn with hams but still comes under the slow factor, average dps
Proteus : can get a crazy dps number and tank but <7km range is lol
Loki : it wants to be a vaga but just cant quite get there, it cant tank and gank with armor but is far the best for links, still average dps even with damage mods

Tengu : Range(like 120-130km+), 650+dps with rage, speed, nearly completely capless besides tackle and 2 resist mods, buffer, can be easy to fit....only downside is slightly harder to kill frigs but with a Fed navy web and cn scourge, instapooopp

Dodgy Past
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:07:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Grog Barrel
more legions than lokies and proteus?

wutthefock
Legion is actually the 2nd best for unprobeable PvE, and easily the best when it comes to EM/Therm rats. ( 700+ DPS uprobeable setup )
Originally by: Liang Nuren
My T3 collection:
- 1 PVE Tengu
- 1 PVE Loki
- 1 PVP Tengu
- 2 PVP Proteus

Notice the lack of Legions? Wink


Across 2 accounts I have:
2x PvE Legions
1x PvP Legion
1x PvE Tengu
1x PvP Tengu.

As soon as I get around to finishing off the training I'll be adding a PvP Loki to that collection.

Naomi Knight
Amarr
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:16:00 - [34]
 

maybe buff the rail and ecm tengu , only missile tengus are used ... so much about this "modular" theory , modular sure...
it is as much modular as the vagabond

GizzyBoy
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:24:00 - [35]
 

I gave up on prote for wh stuff, and just refit my ship as a lol hacking /arch ship.

You could have tank, or you could have dps, just not any useable combination of both.

Its of my humble opinion the problem with proteus in respect to PVE would have to be hybrid weapons. the lack of tracking and poor effective dps whilst trying to have a workable tank. its also has trouble with the various ranges the sleepers orbit at. most are far to close, or far to far away. and trying to use an mwd to catch them presents its own problems in survivability.

Should races sub systems possibly be cheaper by using different loot?
Yeah i dont see why they couldn't play with that. the only variation however is, you would have to be crazy to divert any form of hull reverse engineering to any other hull type than the tengu, purely on the grounds of demand for said hull type.




Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.06 10:41:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Rindon Callsar
Are the other T3's really that bad when compared to the Tengu?


For PvE, yes. For PvP, not at all.

Quote:
Do all the other t3s need a buff to put them in line with the Tengu or does the Tengu need put in line with the other t3s?


There is nothing wrong with the Tengu being dominant PvE-wise. With regards to PvP, the balance between T3s is about as good as you get in EVE.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.06 12:55:00 - [37]
 

Can we also say that Tengus need a buff because all other T3's except for Legion one are better in pvp?

I do agree that the versatile concept of T3's is not really applied, they should be able to fit any situation and perform in it witch isn't the case. Spring is out there maybe CCP should think about polish some concepts and make them fit to their role.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.06 12:57:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Can we also say that Tengus need a buff because all other T3's except for Legion one are better in pvp?


That's pretty much totally untrue.

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.04.06 13:03:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Originally by: Swynet
Can we also say that Tengus need a buff because all other T3's except for Legion one are better in pvp?


That's pretty much totally untrue.


Yes the Tengu can shoot stuff from over 80km with a 160m sign radius, nice in fleets like drakes like CNR's but that wasn't what I thought about when I started training the Proteus, witch is known to be a good pvp T3.

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.04.06 13:24:00 - [40]
 

Legion needs a little buff, everything else is fine.

Elisa Vilerum
Posted - 2011.04.07 05:27:00 - [41]
 

i would like to see other t3's or at least one of them to be similar as tengu in pve to even numbers some.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.04.07 06:11:00 - [42]
 

Loki needs to be able to have 7 mids or 7 lows.

Loki, Proteus and the Legion should all have a 'long range' subsystem, increasing falloff/optimal by a significant margin, as well as a DPS boost, only usable for artillery/beams/rails

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.07 06:26:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 06:27:17
Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 06:26:08
Originally by: Headerman
Loki, Proteus and the Legion should all have a 'long range' subsystem, increasing falloff/optimal by a significant margin, as well as a DPS boost, only usable for artillery/beams/rails


The Loki already has that.

Turret Concurrence Registry
Subsystem Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level
10% bonus to medium projectile turret optimal range per level
7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret tracking per level

Elisa Vilerum
Posted - 2011.04.07 06:35:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 06:27:17
Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 06:26:08
Originally by: Headerman
Loki, Proteus and the Legion should all have a 'long range' subsystem, increasing falloff/optimal by a significant margin, as well as a DPS boost, only usable for artillery/beams/rails


The Loki already has that.

Turret Concurrence Registry
Subsystem Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level
10% bonus to medium projectile turret optimal range per level
7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret tracking per level


^ that sub will give u less dps and no drones if i remember u will gain more alpha and tracking both more suited for some sort of pvp then pve

what makes tengu good in pve is high dps @ long range while not sacrificing tank at all.

legion can have good range with pulses/scorch but lack dps

loki is bad with AC due to range and is bad with Arty's due to low dps

proteus just blows.

Headerman
Minmatar
Quovis
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
Posted - 2011.04.07 06:41:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 06:27:17
Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 06:26:08
Originally by: Headerman
Loki, Proteus and the Legion should all have a 'long range' subsystem, increasing falloff/optimal by a significant margin, as well as a DPS boost, only usable for artillery/beams/rails


The Loki already has that.

Turret Concurrence Registry
Subsystem Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level
10% bonus to medium projectile turret optimal range per level
7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret tracking per level


Indeed, it needs it improved upon though.

Zan Shiro
Posted - 2011.04.07 07:17:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Can we also say that Tengus need a buff because all other T3's except for Legion one are better in pvp?



not really, be a wasted buff. Caldari pvp ='s jams (or missile spam....rokh a passable basher as well). Jams....a fit scorpion is much cheaper, buff tengu ecm and I'd still falcon or scorp it (jammers are loved primaries...them in t3 icing on the cake).


Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.07 08:17:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Grimpak on 07/04/2011 11:05:07
Originally by: Headerman
Originally by: Target Painter
Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 06:27:17
Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 06:26:08
Originally by: Headerman
Loki, Proteus and the Legion should all have a 'long range' subsystem, increasing falloff/optimal by a significant margin, as well as a DPS boost, only usable for artillery/beams/rails


The Loki already has that.

Turret Concurrence Registry
Subsystem Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level
10% bonus to medium projectile turret optimal range per level
7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret tracking per level


Indeed, it needs it improved upon though.
increase damage bonus from 10% to 12.5%.

tbh only offensive sub that needs improvement on the loki is the mixed one. increasing both missile and turret hardpoints by one (4/4 instead of 3/3) would open it for some very interesting setups.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.07 10:37:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 10:56:03
Originally by: Elisa Vilerum
^ that sub will give u less dps and no drones if i remember u will gain more alpha and tracking both more suited for some sort of pvp then pve


Yeah, I'm almost 100% certain that's intentional. An arty-bonused Loki with 700 DPS and even a 25m3 dronebay would be CCP going full ****** with regards to how OP T3s are.

Quote:
what makes tengu good in pve is high dps @ long range while not sacrificing tank at all.


Once again, why should T3s be balanced with regards PvE, when no other ship class is?

For HACs, the Ishtar stands head and shoulders above everything else. For BCs, the Drake is undisputed PvE king. Battleships have a rough balance, but that's largely driven by the SP intensive nature of BSes causing more people to stick with a sub-optimal choice.

But moving along, while I am skeptical of the arty-sub's potential for solo PvP, for gang-work in a sniper gang, it's absolutely marvelous. I'm not sure why people think it needs to be boosted, when a proper fit Sniper Loki poops all over the Muninn, in every way possible and so hard it's not even funny.

Grimpak
Gallente
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
Posted - 2011.04.07 11:08:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Target Painter
But moving along, while I am skeptical of the arty-sub's potential for solo PvP, for gang-work in a sniper gang, it's absolutely marvelous. I'm not sure why people think it needs to be boosted, when a proper fit Sniper Loki poops all over the Muninn, in every way possible and so hard it's not even funny.


well, it's just better than munnin, in the alpha-strike department, because you can fit a 6th turret. tbh a 2.5% increase to the bonus would make it better, altho not too much better still.


I do agree with you tho, even if I still consider the loki to suffer from schizofernia in the mid/low slot department

Rindon Callsar
Posted - 2011.04.07 12:16:00 - [50]
 

I am by no means all that experienced in the game anymore, have been away for 2+ years and just came back. From looking through all the load outs and posts on t3's though it seem like a lot of the subsystems are completely worthless on all the ships. Drone boat t3 anyone? Terrible terrible stats.

I think it just comes down to what it does for most devs. You can either a) fix/balance the old/current content or b) continue to work on new shinnies for everyone. Most companies go with the latter of the two unless there is something completely game breaking with the old/current stuff. Kind of sad really.

Deerin
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
Posted - 2011.04.07 12:57:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Grimpak

tbh only offensive sub that needs improvement on the loki is the mixed one. increasing both missile and turret hardpoints by one (4/4 instead of 3/3) would open it for some very interesting setups.


I agree. This change should also be implemented into other double weapon system ships on minmatar ship line (Bellicose, Huginn, Scythe Fleet Issue etc.)

Furthermore the accelerated ejection bays of tengu gives:

7.5% reduction in duration per level. => %60 increase in dps (Actually a double damage bonus disguised as single one)
10% kinetic damage per level. => %50 increase

1.6*1.5= 2.4 a total of 140% increase in damage.

Isn't that a bit crazy?

Elisa Vilerum
Posted - 2011.04.07 14:36:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Elisa Vilerum on 07/04/2011 14:56:37
Originally by: Target Painter
Edited by: Target Painter on 07/04/2011 10:56:03
Originally by: Elisa Vilerum
^ that sub will give u less dps and no drones if i remember u will gain more alpha and tracking both more suited for some sort of pvp then pve


Yeah, I'm almost 100% certain that's intentional. An arty-bonused Loki with 700 DPS and even a 25m3 dronebay would be CCP going full ****** with regards to how OP T3s are.

Quote:
what makes tengu good in pve is high dps @ long range while not sacrificing tank at all.


Once again, why should T3s be balanced with regards PvE, when no other ship class is?

For HACs, the Ishtar stands head and shoulders above everything else. For BCs, the Drake is undisputed PvE king. Battleships have a rough balance, but that's largely driven by the SP intensive nature of BSes causing more people to stick with a sub-optimal choice.

But moving along, while I am skeptical of the arty-sub's potential for solo PvP, for gang-work in a sniper gang, it's absolutely marvelous. I'm not sure why people think it needs to be boosted, when a proper fit Sniper Loki poops all over the Muninn, in every way possible and so hard it's not even funny.


[Loki, New Setup 1]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M alpha goes up with rfemp m
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake M


Loki Defensive - Amplification Node
Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers
Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Loki Offensive - Turret Concurrence Registry
Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization




^that will give u 500dps with no range to speak of so i am not sure where u got your numbers(700dps) is impossible to have,that is tengu department Very Happy

second i rly don't care that much of pve just balanced dps numbers if u get my point,and being good in pve will come at that point.

edit typos and things.

Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.10 06:36:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Target Painter on 10/04/2011 06:39:32
Originally by: Elisa Vilerum

^that will give u 500dps with no range to speak of so i am not sure where u got your numbers(700dps) is impossible to have,that is tengu department Very Happy


I said if a Loki could do those numbers, it would be imbalanced.

Quote:
second i rly don't care that much of pve just balanced dps numbers if u get my point,and being good in pve will come at that point.


So you want to make it so a Loki can put down 700 DPS with it's arty sub? That's what a Hurricane with 425s, HAMs and Warrior 2s does.

Totally balanced.

j/k

The Loki is already arguably the best T3 for PvP, so it's not like it needs a boost in that department, excepting it's wonky slot layout and the Phoon sub.

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.04.10 06:53:00 - [54]
 

Last tournament I saw that loki running away from a legion in one of the matches(they were the only ships left), not sure if the legion caught up to him though....

Anyway - a ****ty pirate cruiser(or t2) is cheaper than any t3 and doesn't cost any skill points when you lose it - I'd fly that anyday.


Target Painter
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.10 07:07:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Songbird
Anyway - a ****ty pirate cruiser(or t2) is cheaper than any t3 and doesn't cost any skill points when you lose it - I'd fly that anyday.


Realistically, there are any number of BCs/HACs/recons that can do 90% of what a T3 does (excepting the Tengu for Guristas PvE). If you're into the 10% margin, they are worth a look.

And if you eject from your ship before it explodes, you don't lose any SP.

Judicator Saturnius
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.04.10 08:18:00 - [56]
 

Had been seriously considering training up for a legion soon, but since i've got my launcher skills in order already I may as well train the tengu first. Crying or Very sad Makes my armor-tanked laser-beam heart weep.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2011.04.10 09:00:00 - [57]
 

I say nerf the tengu a bit and boost the others a bit.

Deb Dukar
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.04.10 10:48:00 - [58]
 

i love my loki but im still training up for a tengu simply because it has way more DPS.

tbh, i hate missiles (requires no player skill) and thats why i realy dont understand why my close range loki does significantly less DPS in close range battles.
the hardpoint subsystem could use a highslot more, then i might be satisfied ^^

Goose99
Posted - 2011.04.10 18:38:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Goose99 on 10/04/2011 18:47:32
Originally by: Dr Nefarius
Originally by: Mkah Mvet
No, it's okay if the ships aren't equal in performance in every single situation.

What's not okay is that every fully assembled T3 with subsystems use EXACTLY the same number of the EXACT same materials. This is why there is the MNR bottleneck in production. The MNR bottleneck means all sleeper drops that are not MNRs will constantly drop in price relative to MNRs until they are absolutely worthless (which is mostly the case already.) A proper rebalance would have each race use different quantities of different materials. That way a proteus would cost what a proteus is worth and not what a tengu is worth. It would also be nice to have the subsystems materials rebalanced too, because it is really annoying to have a subsystem blueprint that is worse than worthless because the construction costs are decided by the valuable subsystems.

But yeah, imo, it's okay that not all things are created equal, but allow things to cost what they are worth.



Having the 4 races use different bottlenecks for their t3 production... sounds sweet. Would mean CCP doesn't have to worry as much about the balance between them.


It won't do a thing. Proteus is lowest in number not because it's not good, but because it gets blown up. Popped ships don't count. Tengu is arguably the worst pvp t3, tie with Legion, thus it's use only for carebearing. Proteus is by far the best pvp t3, and that's how ppl use them.

Originally by: Deb Dukar
i love my loki but im still training up for a tengu simply because it has way more DPS.

tbh, i hate missiles (requires no player skill) and thats why i realy dont understand why my close range loki does significantly less DPS in close range battles.
the hardpoint subsystem could use a highslot more, then i might be satisfied ^^


Tengu does not have "way more dps." ~800 ham or ~600 hml compared to ~800 autos+drones. What it has is way more range, which has to do with missile range in general. ~100km heavy missiles are definitely an advantage for pve. Cruise = ~200km range, heavy having ~100km amounts to similar ratio as large vs medium guns.

Irani Firecam
Posted - 2011.04.10 18:42:00 - [60]
 

Legions and Lokis are quite popular for AHAC fleets, I see them fielded (and requested) more than Proteus and Tengu.


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